Tune in to Gear Up! Adventures in Parenthood with Clinical Social Workers Heather Bouwman & Kristina Boersma as they explore the highs and lows of parenthood with lots of insight and a little humor, too.

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Episodes

In this episode, Kristina and Heather dive into the art of managing our daily schedules while keeping life balanced and fulfilling. Drawing from their own experiences of juggling grad school, parenting, and all the chaos in between, they chat about the importance of creating space (aka margins) to avoid burnout. They share how hectic schedules can take a toll on sleep, relationships, and overall well-being, and offer tips on how to bring more mindfulness and intention into our routines.

They also discuss the crucial benefits of getting outdoors, connecting with nature, and building meaningful family rituals—no grand gestures needed! By the end, Kristina and Heather remind us that a balanced life, with time for both rest and play, isn’t just essential for our own health, but also for modeling healthy habits for our kids and strengthening family bonds.

This conversation is all about practical advice and a refreshing take on finding harmony in a busy world!

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of allowing children to experience frustration and disappointment to build resilience and problem-solving skills. They introduce the concept of the “wall of futility,” where children must confront and process their emotions to develop coping and adaptability skills. Emphasizing empathy over rescue, they highlight the need for parents to resist the urge to distract or minimize their children’s feelings. They share personal stories and strategies, such as acknowledging feelings and not rushing to fix problems, to help children navigate through disappointment and adapt. The conversation takes a look at finding the balance between advocating for children and fostering their independence.

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of allowing children to experience frustration and disappointment to build resilience and problem-solving skills. They introduce the concept of the “wall of futility,” where children must confront and process their emotions to develop coping and adaptability skills. Emphasizing empathy over rescue, they highlight the need for parents to resist the urge to distract or minimize their children’s feelings. They share personal stories and strategies, such as acknowledging feelings and not rushing to fix problems, to help children navigate through disappointment and adapt. The conversation takes a look at finding the balance between advocating for children and fostering their independence.

Clinical social workers Kristina and Heather dive into the world of managing children’s emotional outbursts with a mix of expert advice, practical strategies, and a sprinkle of humor. They break down how understanding your child’s brain development can transform your approach, and share techniques like using the “look up” method to help shift focus from the emotional brain to the more rational frontal lobe. They discuss how non-verbal communication can be our secret weapon, why it’s best to avoid teaching in the heat of the moment, and how simple phrases like “first and then” and “make me an offer I can say yes to” can encourage cooperation and calm. Plus, Kristina and Heather explain the power of positive reinforcement, the importance of clear, consistent communication, and the magic of phrases like “asked and answered” to diffuse tension.

Join clinical social workers Heather and Kristina, as they explore the profound impact of life’s transitions on us and our children. In this engaging conversation, they delve into the importance of honoring both beginnings and endings, with our children. They discuss ways parents can guide their kids through the emotional landscape of change, helping them navigate feelings of grief, gratitude, and excitement.

Through heartfelt personal stories and practical strategies—like creating memory boxes and using calming language—Heather and Kristina offer insights into how parents can model emotional health and create space for children to express their authentic feelings. From the bittersweet moments of a child starting school to the challenges of parents moving on to new jobs, they highlight how these milestones, though often joyful, can also stir complex emotions.

In a world that often rushes through life’s transitions, this conversation serves as a reminder to slow down, be present, and give ourselves—and our children—the time and space needed to truly process and embrace change. Whether we’re navigating our own transitions or supporting a loved one, this discussion offers valuable tools for fostering emotional resilience and connection.

In the final episode of their 3-part series on Discipline, clinical social workers Heather and Kristina wrap things up with some practical, easy-to-apply strategies for parents. This time, they’re focusing on the power of using an assertive voice in parenting. They emphasize the need for clear and direct communication—no room for questioning or extra politeness like “please” and “thank you” that can confuse kids. 

To help manage resistance, they introduce a simple three-step process: empathy, expectation, and choice. It’s a strategy that allows parents to remain firm while still showing understanding. Heather and Kristina also recommend using visual aids and breaking tasks down into clear steps, helping children better grasp what’s expected of them.

But, as they point out, making the shift to an assertive voice isn’t always easy. It takes practice and consistency—especially for parents who are used to being passive or aggressive in their communication. They remind us that self-care and leaning on our village for support are key during this transition. 

This episode is packed with valuable insights, encouraging parents to stay calm, stay consistent, and, most importantly, take care of themselves while navigating the challenges of this parenting adventure.

 

In this episode, Kristina and Heather discuss effective discipline strategies that focus on children’s skill development rather than controlling behavior. They share the inspiring story of a father named Tom, who transformed his parenting approach over two years by focusing on personal growth, self-care, and understanding his emotional triggers. Tom’s journey involved improving his sleep, nutrition, and stress management, which led to increased patience and a stronger bond with his daughters.

 

The hosts emphasize the importance of self-regulation, modeling calm behavior, and the long-term commitment to parenting. They also preview upcoming episodes on discipline strategies.

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina discuss the difference between discipline and punishment, emphasizing a growth-focused approach. They highlight the negative impact of punitive models on children’s mental health and attachment.

Sharing personal stories, they illustrate how modeling positive behavior and providing do-overs can foster resilience and healthy development. They stress the importance of co-parenting and understanding the root causes of children’s behaviors.

The conversation underscores the need for a supportive, non-punitive environment where children feel safe to learn and make mistakes, promoting long-term growth and connection.

Clinical social workers Kristina and Heather discuss the critical role gratitude plays in parenting, specifically in shifting mindsets from victimhood to resilience. They highlight practical strategies like expressing gratitude at dinner, keeping gratitude jars, and using visual reminders.

Gratitude is linked to improved mental health, reduced depression and anxiety, and enhanced happiness. They stress the difference between genuine gratitude and toxic positivity, advocating for authentic expression and critical thinking. They share personal stories that illustrate how gratitude can transform negative situations into opportunities for growth. They also discuss modeling gratitude and involving children in giving activities, such as leaving pennies for others to use for a fun activity for kids at a local grocery store chain.

In this episode Kristina and Heather, clinical social workers, discuss the importance of setting realistic expectations for children, balancing effort with perfectionism, and establishing clear, consistent boundaries. The conversation highlights the benefits of natural consequences over imposed ones and the necessity of following through with consequences.

They emphasize the significance of body language, empathy, and offering choices, sharing personal anecdotes about handling a child’s perfectionism and the impact of forgetting items at school.

They discuss how important it is to set developmentally appropriate expectations and how important, yet challenging, it can be for parents to be consistent role models.

Clinical social workers and moms, Heather and Kristina, discuss the importance of setting clear boundaries with children to promote their success and family well-being.

They emphasize that boundaries should be consistent and not overly rigid, as this helps children understand acceptable behaviors and values. They also highlight the need for parents to communicate expectations clearly and consistently, as our kids are not mind-readers.

The conversation also covers handling sibling conflicts, teaching children to respect boundaries, and the significance of emotional safety. They stress that boundaries should evolve as children grow, focusing on teaching values and nurturing their development.

Join Kristina and Heather in this lively episode as they don their detective hats and continue their conversation about the intriguing world of shifting behaviors and how to better understand these changes in our kids.

They explore clever strategies for decoding children’s behaviors, especially when it comes to food and screen time. With a focus on connection, they share how family meals can become nurturing moments that balance parental guidance with kids’ ability to listen to their bodies. Get ready for some real talk as they recount their own parenting adventures understanding their own childrens’ food preferences. Plus, they shine a light on the effects of screen time, suggesting a fun 15-minute rule to prevent dopamine overload.

Heather and Kristina also remind us all of the crucial role nature and time outside play in boosting family health and harmony. Tune in for a blend of laughter, insights, and practical tips that will help you navigate the ups and downs of chasing those “whys” when it comes to behavior shifts and “being the detective” in your own home.

Join Heather and Kristina as they embark on a two part series to uncover the secrets behind those puzzling behavior shifts we all encounter.

Armed with magnifying glasses and a playful spirit, they illuminate the essential clues—diet, sleep, screen time, physical activity, and attachment—that unlock the treasure chest of a child’s emotions. It’s like a scavenger hunt for the heart! With their usual compassionate, “no nonsense” approach, Heather and Kristina tackle how major life changes, like moving homes or the arrival of a new sibling, can create ripples in a child’s mood, leading us to a fascinating interplay between environment and behavior.

With a dash of humor, they remind us not to jump to conclusions, advocating for a thoughtful, detective-like approach that seeks to decode the “whys” behind these shifts. 

In this episode, Heather and Kristina continue their exploration of David Keirsey’s temperament theory, which outlines four fundamental temperaments: Guardians, Artisans, Idealists, and Rationals. 

Drawing from their own parenting journeys, they delve into the Idealists and Rationals, sharing valuable insights that illuminate how these temperaments shape our children’s unique perspectives. 

Heather and Kristina discuss how understanding these traits can enhance our parenting by allowing us to tailor our approaches to fit each child’s individual needs. They explore the delightful dynamics that come with each temperament, revealing how this awareness helps us approach parenting with greater empathy and joy. 

Join them as they celebrate the diverse ways our children experience the world, empowering us all to support and nurture their growth in the most loving ways!

In this first episode in a two-part series, Kristina and Heather, discuss David Keirsey’s temperament theory as a tool in parenting, focusing on two of the four temperaments: Guardians and Artisans. Guardians (approximately 45% of the population) are factual, reliable, and duty-bound, valuing law and order. They are often responsible parents and leaders but can be misperceived as pessimistic or self-righteous. Artisans (approximately 30% of the population) are optimistic, daring, and adaptable, valuing freedom and impact. They are creative and spontaneous but may struggle with rules and planning. 

Understanding temperament allows parents to recognize and appreciate the innate differences in how their children perceive the world and interact with it. 

Rather than expecting all children to respond the same way, parents can adjust their communication, discipline, and expectations to align with each child’s natural tendencies.

Continuing their conversation on “The Parenting Journey,” Heather and Kristina explore embracing the unexpected and letting go of preconceived expectations both of ourselves as parents and of our children. They discuss the importance of discovering and celebrating each child’s unique identity, rather than trying to mold them into a predetermined vision. They share personal experiences of navigating parenting challenges, such as dealing with a child’s learning differences and embracing their child’s specific interests, even when they are outside the parent’s comfort zone. The conversation emphasizes the value of building a supportive community of friends and family who can provide encouragement, perspective, and a listening ear during difficult times. They highlight the role of imaginative play in a child’s development and the need for parents to be flexible and adapt to their child’s needs. This episode underscores the importance of finding personal coping strategies, like using music, and using humor to manage stress and maintain a positive mindset throughout the parenting journey.

In this episode, Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of proactive parenting and building strong attachments with children. They emphasize the significance of rituals, such as family meals and bedtime routines, in fostering connection and resilience. They share personal experiences, like prioritizing family meals despite busy schedules and the impact of one-on-one time. They highlight the importance of modeling positive behavior and consistent values, such as generosity and respect, to help children develop these characteristics. The conversation underscores the need for intentional parenting to create a secure and loving family environment.

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Episode 17: Mindfulness of Schedules

 

In this episode, Kristina and Heather dive into the art of managing our daily schedules while keeping life balanced and fulfilling. Drawing from their own experiences of juggling grad school, parenting, and all the chaos in between, they chat about the importance of creating space (aka margins) to avoid burnout. They share how hectic schedules can take a toll on sleep, relationships, and overall well-being, and offer tips on how to bring more mindfulness and intention into our routines.

They also discuss the crucial benefits of getting outdoors, connecting with nature, and building meaningful family rituals—no grand gestures needed! By the end, Kristina and Heather remind us that a balanced life, with time for both rest and play, isn’t just essential for our own health, but also for modeling healthy habits for our kids and strengthening family bonds.

This conversation is all about practical advice and a refreshing take on finding harmony in a busy world!

 

“…as we raise a family, change is always coming. And so if we’re not intentional about going back to those foundations in every new season of life and growth and endeavor, we can get off track real fast…”

 

Daily Rhythm and Schedule Management

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of their daily schedule and rhythm.

Kristina reflects on her busy grad school life and the challenges of managing a packed schedule.

They talk about the need for margins in their schedules to avoid feeling overwhelmed.

Kristina mentions the cultural evolution of children’s activities and the parental guilt associated with not providing every opportunity.

 

“Because if I say ‘yes’ to that, I have to say ‘no’ to something that’s already on the plate, because the plate is as full as the plate can get. And that doesn’t mean every square inch of that plate is covered. It means that, in my world, none of my food touches. So there’s enough space on my plate to allow for the margins in life. And what’s also included on my plate is the commitment and time and space for my family.”

 

Balancing Commitments Inside and Outside the Home

Kristina emphasizes the need to decide on commitments inside and outside the home.

They discuss the impact of a busy schedule on sleep and relationships.

Kristina highlights the importance of meaningful connections and the quality of life.

They talk about the societal pressure to be “busy” and the brain chemistry involved in maintaining a fast pace.

 

“ And we talk about the pace of nature and how, for our early childhood, kids, in particular, their natural pace matches the pace of nature. And it’s just slower…And there’s such beauty, observing the pace that the young child has…they can’t go faster than their skills and abilities…unless you just do it for them, because it’s taking too long, right? And then they’re just frustrated because, developmentally, they want to do things, right? They want to lead. They want to have initiative, right? But the way we’ve

scheduled our life maybe doesn’t allow for it.”

 

Mindfulness and Intentionality in Daily Life

Heather and Kristina discuss the concept of mindfulness and intentionality in managing our schedules.

They talk about the importance of returning to foundational values in different life stages.

Kristina mentions the cultural expectation of “busyness” and the need to resist it.

They emphasize the power of saying “no” and not conforming to societal norms.

 

“You should sit in nature twenty minutes a day. Unless you’re busy, then you should sit for an hour.” – A quote Heather shares, from @becomingminimalist

 

The Impact of Nature on Mindfulness

Heather discusses the deep benefits of spending time in nature for mindfulness.

They talk about the slower pace of nature and its influence on their lives.

Heather shares how observing the pace of nature has helped her slow down.

They mention the importance of teaching children to appreciate the rhythms of nature.

 

“And really…kids need two things: attachment and connection to primary caregivers, and play.”

 

Balancing Children’s Activities and Family Time

Kristina and Heather discuss the challenges of balancing children’s activities and family time.

They talk about the importance of not overcommitting and allowing for margins in the schedule.

Kristina shares her experience with her daughter Grace and the decision to not participate in certain activities.

They emphasize the need to model balance and mindfulness for their children.

 

“I used to do date nights with each one of my kids. And they were just simple little things where we would go. It was one on one time, which felt so special when you’re in the mix of three. And it was in the evening, which also felt special. So we would do those things. And they weren’t expensive. And they weren’t elaborate. It was just time.”

 

The Role of Traditions and Rituals in Family Life

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of traditions and rituals in family life.

They talk about simple traditions like the red plate at dinner and their significance.

They emphasize the value of small, meaningful moments over grand gestures.

 

“There was a part of it that I was jumping up and down and very happy, but it was harder for my husband to really kind of wrap his head around that. And reason being because we can get our own emotions sometimes tied up in our kids’ stuff. And so it had to be the reminder of ‘This is hers to decide.’ And it seems like she’s got pretty solid logic behind it. So it’s really important for us to be mindful of what we’re tying into and living through in our kids…”

 

Managing Expectations and Setting Boundaries

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of managing expectations and setting boundaries.

They talk about the challenges of creating traditions without feeling overwhelmed.

Kristina shares her experience with daddy-daughter days and the importance of one-on-one time.

They emphasize the need to be mindful of the traditions they create and the impact on their family.

 

“And I think we’re all going to have times in our life where maybe the crowd is doing one thing. And you just need to about face and walk away. And so I always wanted my kids to be able to have the courage to do that.”

 

Teaching Children to Balance and Prioritize

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of teaching children to balance and prioritize.

They talk about the value of modeling a balanced life for their children.

Heather shares her experience with her daughter Ava and the decision to step away from certain commitments.

They emphasize the importance of teaching children to recognize and celebrate small achievements.

 

“…parents will come to me and say, ‘But they want to do all of those things.’ And I get that too. I personally think it’s part of our job as a parent balance, to teach our children that it can be an awesome opportunity, and we can still say “no” to it, because these other things are our family values. It’s what we know is important to have balance in our lives, so that and we can’t get too tied into it.”

 

The Importance of Rest and Downtime

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of rest and downtime in their lives.

They talk about the impact of a busy schedule on their ability to recharge and enjoy family time.

Heather shares her experience with her husband and the importance of having a “voice of reason” when it comes to commitments.

They emphasize the need to create space for rest and relaxation in their daily routines.

 

“…ensuring that we have…time in our family to just be and to celebrate the little things…And to teach the balance. To teach kids how to balance. Because it’s a skill they’re going to need always…It really comes back to mindfulness. Comes back to your priorities. Comes back to centering yourself…And how much more joy-filled is the entire journey when we’re able to wrestle our schedules, have things intentionally present, and intentional open spaces…make sure we have enough time to be outside to reap those benefits, to play,  and to get enough sleep.”

 

Reflecting on Personal Values and Foundations

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of reflecting on personal values and foundations.

They talk about the need to be mindful of the commitments they make and their impact on their lives.

Kristina shares her experience with her career path and the importance of following her true calling.

They emphasize the value of living a life that aligns with our personal values and foundations.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Mindfulness of Schedules/Benefits of Down Time

 

Impact of Overscheduling on Skill Development

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

 

In prior episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In a prior episode, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel

  1. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood

Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard

Louv:

Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin

N 

 

Natural

Start Alliance 

 

Children

& Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

 

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive

functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s

Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 17: Mindfulness of Schedules

 

Kristina  00:00

Hey everyone. Today, Heather and I are talking about something we know all too well: how to keep our schedule from completely taking over our lives.

 

Heather  00:09

We’ve all been there – balancing family commitments, activities, work and everything else. Today, we’re sharing some of our favorite, simple strategies that really help us find balance and connection, 

 

Kristina  00:22

And it’s not just about checking off tasks. We’re talking mindfulness, intentionality and why getting outside and soaking up some nature is a total game changer when life feels overwhelming.

 

Heather  00:33

It’s all about finding that sweet spot of balance so we can model healthy habits for our kids and keep our family time strong. 

 

Kristina  00:40

So get ready for some practical tips and a little humor as we talk about how to make space for rest, play and real connection in our busy lives.

 

Heather  00:52

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  00:55

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  01:09

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  01:31

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  01:37

Let’s hit the trails!

 

Heather  01:44

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  01:56

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives. 

 

Heather  02:04

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. So today, we’re really going to talk about what we want to commit to outside of our homes, and what are we going to commit to inside of our home? How are we going to live? What is our daily rhythm going to be? Who is in control of our schedule?

 

Kristina  02:29

Yeah, should be us.

 

Heather  02:33

And what do we want to be mindful of as a family? How full do we want our schedule to be? How busy do we want to be? How much time do we want to just have together as a unit? Yeah, so Kristina, talk to us about why this topic is so important.

 

Kristina  02:51

Oh, well, you know, we just talked about sleep not that long ago, and that, you know, most of us adults are running around sleep deprived. And why is that? I think this has a lot to do with it. Absolutely. We’re busy, and we can’t be our best selves when we are not getting enough sleep and when we don’t have the margins in our life to make those meaningful connections with our children, with our partners, if we have partners, with our village. That’s really important for our quality of life, the quality of our relationships, and there’s just no time. How many times do you say to somebody, “Oh, I haven’t seen you in months, but we should get together.” And then the next time you see them, “Oh, it’s been months. We should get together.” And you’re not just saying that because you feel like you need to say it.

 

Heather  03:42

No, it’s not disingenuous or insincere. 

 

Kristina  03:46

No, you really want to see this person, but the schedule of your life doesn’t allow it.

 

Heather  03:49

And so often, I think it’s so true, we don’t realize until we’re there, yes, because our culture, it’s just like, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. And I think there is a brain chemistry component to that, dopamine, dopamine, adrenaline, adrenaline, faster, faster, faster, faster. Oh, that just makes me stressed out just sitting here doing that, yes, and then I will find like, why am I? Why? Why am I doing this?

 

Kristina  04:18

And then I get crabby because there’s too much.

 

Heather  04:21

Yep. And my husband will be the voice of reason oftentimes, and be like, “You’re making your own problems. Like, what are you doing?” 

 

Kristina  04:28

Yeah. I just made myself crazy by saying “yes” to too many things. Yep. I love that you used the word a little bit ago, of “mindfulness.” And I think intentionality, and mindfulness about what we will allow into our lives…

 

Heather  04:46

Kind of goes back to our foundation.

 

Kristina  04:50

It does, and it’s easy to lose sight of that. It is midst of-

 

Heather  04:55

Well, because as we raise a family, change is always coming. And so if we’re not intentional about going back to those foundations and every new season of life and growth and endeavor, we can get off track real fast, big time. So let’s talk about how we’re going to do this. How are we going to be mindful? How are we going to hem our schedule? How are we going to keep it reasonable for all of our sanity? 

 

Kristina  05:27

Yeah. So I don’t know if it’s because of when I was born or not, but I love a good consciousness raising and recognizing and acknowledging that we have a cult of busyness, and when we buy into it that’s crazymaking, and literally the intentionality and the mindfulness and the consciousness raising is: I don’t have to, even though that’s what my society and my culture is calling for me to do. I don’t have to. And being aware of it and then owning your own power to say, “Nope. Not playing. Not gonna play that game. That’s not the life we’re gonna live.” Yes, and I’m not going to, even if I was raised within the sickness. So I have the sickness within me. I will not model that and pass that on to my children.

 

Heather  06:25

Yes. And I think I have a tendency to be a go, go, go, go person. I’m pretty competitive, and I like to achieve. And my dear husband, nature boy extreme, won’t play. He will not play. And it’s so good for me to have him be that rock, to be like, “Absolutely not.” And he’s just definitive. And I’m like, “Okay.” And he’s like, “This is my Alamo.” Like, this is the hill. Like, no, we’re not playing. And that has been so good. 

 

Kristina  07:03

Oh, and we each need to have somebody with that voice in our village.

 

Heather  07:07

Yes. Because it’s the it’s the voice of reason. Certainty. Yeah, it’s even more than reason. It’s the voice of certainty. And it’s just the voice of extreme security. 

 

Kristina  07:21

Yeah. So I think for me, because I resist anybody attempting to control me. I think somebody just raising the question of, “Hmm, is that something you want to make space for in your life?” Because if I say “yes” to that, I have to say “no” to something that’s already on the plate, because the plate is as full as the plate can get. And that doesn’t mean every square inch of that plate is covered. It means that, in my world, none of my food touches. So there’s enough space on my plate to allow for the margins in life. And what’s also included on my plate is the commitment and time and space for my family.

 

Heather  08:03

Yeah, because life is too short to just always feel exasperated.

 

Kristina  08:08

Yes, and exhausted. 

 

Heather  08:11

So we like to say, in our preschool world, early childhood has a slow pace, right? We just-it’s impossible to go quickly with these little people, whether it’s a transition from outside to inside, because maybe there’s pelting rain and it’s sideways hitting them in the face and they’re wet, and they need right their outdoor gear to be changed…like you just don’t rush that. You have to know what you’re getting yourself into. You have to meet that pace, and there’s no point in rushing it, because it’s just going to be frustration on all fronts, right, right? And we talk about the pace of nature and how, for our early childhood, kids, in particular, their natural pace matches the pace of nature. And it’s just slower. And that has made a huge impact in my life with my work, because I’m a “go, go, go,” and I could really get into a task list and checking things off. And there’s such beauty in observing the pace that the young child has.

 

Kristina  09:22

Well nd I think just yet, as I’m hearing you talk about that, Heather, I’m aware of how much agitation comes along with trying to move children faster than they can move, “hurry, hurry, hurry,” not letting them do something on their own.

 

Heather  09:37

And how frustrating it is. Like they can’t, right? They can’t go faster than their skills and abilities. 

 

Kristina  09:44

Well, unless you just do it for them, because it’s taking too long, right? 

 

Heather  09:47

And then they’re just frustrated because, developmentally, they want to do things, right? They want to lead. They want to have initiative, right? But the way you’ve scheduled your life doesn’t allow.

 

Kristina  09:55

Doesn’t allow. I love the rhythms of nature that are so important for us to be attuned to. And when we get out of tune, you know, we’re not attuned to that –

 

Heather  10:07

It’s even like the seasons, right? Like we take the kids through seasons. And we’re on a 160 acre nature preserve, so to really be able to fully observe all of those seasons…Right now, we’re really in winter. And it’s just slower and quieter and darker. So they learn, like how the animals prepare for winter. They learn how there’s more sleep. They learn about heart rates. They learn about how you store food, all of those things. And really winter for us as adults is meant for some of those very same things. It’s meant for drawing closer, being in more, being in rest more. Not that we’re not going to be active and outside. That’s still very powerful and helpful for mental health and sleep, but it’s different. It’s different in the season of winter than it is in summer. You think about summer on a lakeshore tourist town, right? Where we live, right? And the pace of that versus right now. We’re just sleepier. Like everything is just sleepier and slower. And it feels really good. And that’s the pace of nature.

 

Kristina  11:24

It’s a really tender family time.

 

Heather  11:29

And I think as we come out of all of that sunshine and kind of that hurried, long-day summer, and we move into fall, which we had a gorgeous, warm, hard, really funny fall for a really long time, everybody’s just kind of ready to put their sweater on and to have the first snowfall. Yes, all of it, right? It’s just different and it brings us closer. 

 

Kristina  11:58

So you shared a quote recently something that you had read. Remind me what. That was so good. 

 

Heather  12:05

Yes, it said that we should sit in nature. We should make it our mission to sit in nature at least twenty minutes a day, unless we’re busy. And if we’re busy, we should try to sit in nature for an hour. It’s powerful. 

 

Kristina  12:23

It’s like mic drop. I love when you said, you know, twenty minutes. Sit with nature for twenty minutes. Unless you’re busy, “I don’t have time for that,” like, “Ah, then do it for an hour.” You need it even more.

 

Heather  12:41

So it’s what we’re gonna prioritize. Yep. How hurried are we going to be? How hurried are we going to make our children? 

 

Kristina  12:51

Yeah, and like you had said earlier, Heather, there are just so many opportunities, so many like we did motor movement with our children, kinder music, kinder music, yep. Do we want to start them in a sport, right? What about an art class? Oh, art is so good. And then what about being in a little choir? What about going to the library-

 

Heather  13:11

And really play, play, play. Kids need two things, attachment, connection to primary caregivers, and play,

 

Kristina  13:20

And then as they develop their skills as an only, or, you know, as my child was as an only, doing some of those things so that she could have this engagement with peers and begin learning some of those skills was important, but not too many. And boy, it was hard because I loved the darling art class, and I loved kinder music and I loved-

 

Heather  13:47

And you can get to all of them. We just don’t need to have them all at once, right? We’re gonna pick and choose. It’s like when my husband says, “This is my Alamo. We’re not doing this.” And I think to me, that was like I was able to go: permission given. Sometimes we just need the permission not to participate.

 

Kristina  14:07

Amen. And not to feel guilty that we didn’t-

 

Heather  14:12

No and then once you walk away from it, you can kind of Ppuff out your chest, and it feels a little empowering, like “we just did that.” We just walked away from that. Everybody else is doing it, but we just turned our backs and walked away.

 

Kristina  14:23

Yeah. So Grace is not a sporty kid. And there were times that my husband and I grieved that because of the, I mean, so many good things come from participating in team sports.

 

Heather  14:33

Especially when you’re an only 

 

Kristina  14:37

That’s not who Grace is. And I look at some of my friends who have- their children are not just involved in a sport, but in all sports. Like they do every single sport, both rec and school and so their life really is practices and games. 

 

Heather  15:00

Travel now, yeah, right? There’s so many things, right? 

 

Kristina  15:03

So it’s games. It’s practices. It’s travel, homework. Guess what? There’s no time for just being and just having dinner and just being. There’s not a big agenda. There’s not an agenda at all. We’re just here together in the same time and space, talking to each other, learning from each other, no time.

 

Heather  15:27

And it’s not to say that if you’re participating in some of this, it’s a bad thing. No, it’s just being mindful of, “How are we going to manage? How are we going to remain committed to our foundations?” This is my daughter, who we went away last year on a family vacation. She competes at a decently high level. She is an equestrian, and she trains a lot. And it requires a tremendous amount of work. And she has to have skin in the game. It’s an exceptionally expensive sport, so she has to work to earn some of this for her training. And she got away from it for a bit. She got out of that routine for like, a ten day stretch. And even as a fourteen year old, was like, “What am I doing? What am I doing?” And came back and sat we got home on a Saturday night and sat down with us, and was like, just dropped the bomb. I’m gonna be done with this. I’m not gonna do the show circuit this summer. I’m gonna-I mean, she was working with a trainer and all that. And was just like, “I’m done.” And it was a 180 and so, for a minute, we had to really wrap our heads around that. But I think even kids can get into it and not even feel it until they can step away from it for a bit, they’re living in the same culture, right?

 

Kristina  16:52

Thank you for saying that, Heather. Because I didn’t mean to imply that doing some of those things isn’t really wonderful. And parents will come to me and say, “But they want to do all of those things.” And I get that too. I personally think it’s part of our job as a parent balance, to teach our children that it can be an awesome opportunity, and we can still say “no” to it, because these other things are our family values. It’s what we know is important to have balance in our lives, so that and we can’t get too tied into it.

 

Heather  17:30

That was the thing for my husband and I. When Ava came to us with this thing, right? You’ve made an investment, pretty significant investment. She’s put a lot of time, a lot of training and 180 on us, and that was hard, sure. Harder for some of us than others. There was a part of it that I was jumping up and down and very happy, but it was harder for my husband to really kind of wrap his head around that and reason being because we can get our own emotions sometimes tied up in our kids stuff. And so it had to be the reminder of “this is hers to decide,” and it seems like she’s got pretty solid logic behind it. So it’s really important for us to be mindful of what we’re tying into and living through in our kids, right? 

 

Kristina  18:25

Yeah. So growing up, not necessarily in my family, but it was very cultural that if you started something, you must finish it. No quitters. Nobody quits. And even if you really want to quit, you do not quit because you made a commitment, and then you’re a quitter, right?

 

Heather  18:41

You’re going to be a quitter for the rest of your life, and nobody wants a quitter.

 

Kristina  18:45

So yeah, “a quitter for the rest of your life.” Oh, my word. So there are still an awful lot of us who feel that way. And so I want to be really careful when I talk about this. There is value in learning to persevere

 

Heather  19:00

Absolutely. And seeing your commitments through.

 

Kristina  19:04

Absolutely. Value in that too. I also personally think there’s value in learning when to quit, when to walk away. I used to think that you couldn’t start reading a book without finishing it. What? What? If I didn’t like the book, you can just stop reading it, like, be empowered to return the book to the library. You never have to finish it. You can quit on the book. You can start thinking, “I really want to learn how to be a pastry chef” and learn all these things, and get started and be like, “I actually don’t like it so much.”

 

Heather  19:41

I hate the smell of sugar. 

 

Kristina  19:45

Or for me, right? I did my undergrad. My major was biology. I was in a pre-med track. I was going to medical school. And that had been my dream since I was a child. That’s where I was headed. So I started having an inkling in my undergrad that this maybe wasn’t for me. I did some rotations in the hospital and really got in there, much closer to the work that I was thinking I was going to be doing, and thought “I actually am not super comfortable with like blood and mucus and things like that.” I just-and I thought, “Well, I’ll get used to it. I’ll get used to it. I mean, you don’t quit. This is what you’re doing. You don’t quit.” I saw it all the way through undergrad and graduated with a degree, and this whole trajectory that it’s like, “I’m actually going to quit on that.” I sure am, because that’s not where I’m being called. That’s not where my giftedness is. It’s not what I thought it was going to be, right? And I mean, whatever, 20/20, right? You can’t go back and redo the things. And I don’t want to be a person who lives with regret. However, had I had the courage to quit on pursuing medical school sooner, I would have had a much different experience in my undergraduate being able to really I mean- I fell in love with psychology courses, but I didn’t have time to take as many as I’d like to take, because I had to take all that science and math. So perseverance following through on commitments, important things. Also important to, with your child, talk about things and it actually being okay to not follow all the way through.

 

Heather  21:35

And I think we’re all gonna have times in our life where maybe the crowd is doing one thing. And you just need to about face and walk away. And so I always wanted my kids to be able to have the courage to do that.

 

Kristina  21:47

 So as we’re talking about, what do you fill your life with? Children are explorers by nature, and allowing them to explore different things and learn about themselves, and sometimes sticking it out and sometimes saying, “let’s look at this and make the wisest decision for you, for our family, with what we know now about whatever that activity is that we engaged in,” that’s just good consciousness raising and intentionality and mindfulness. I think as parents too, we can get kind of fooled into believing that it’s the really big gestures that are important to our kids, that, you know, we have to take this enormous vacation, and that’s what’s going to be the thing our kids remember forever. 

 

Heather  22:42

That’s not actually – It’s oftentimes the little things, the little rituals, I guess, is what they are that are built in, right? It’s the red plate at dinner, and what the red plate meant, it was the what are we reading? And we all brought our book to dinner and talked about what we’re reading. Or it’s the “Yeah, we were all headed to Disney,” but then so and so threw up on grandma, and that became the star of the show, not the $12,000 trip to Disney. It was just that, you know, Zack threw up on grandma, and then dad, after sea world gave grandma the cape and said, “Here, this is for the ride home. Enjoy.” Like, that’s what everybody remembers.

 

Kristina  23:27

I remember going on a trip as a kid. This is back in the day, when you’re like, in order to record a song, you would have to have your little tape recorder and wait for the song to be played on the radio and post my child on time. Okay, so my sisters and I were waiting for the song “I Can’t Fight This Feeling” any longer. So we’re waiting. We’re waiting in the car. We’re waiting for it to come on. Mom is driving and it comes on the radio, and we push play and record, and we’re- nobody’s breathing, nobody’s moving, we’re recording this on and all of a sudden my mom says, “Whew! I can’t fight this feeling any longer, either. I’ve really got to go. Where’s the next rest stop?” 

 

Heather  24:18

We’re gonna hear that while we’re roller skating in the basement forever.

 

Kristina  24:22

I have no idea where we were going. I have no idea what we did when we got there-

 

Heather  24:27

But mom couldn’t fight that feeling anymore.

 

Kristina  24:30

Never forget that. Nor will my sister. 

 

Heather  24:33

That’s what I’m talking about. You could have gone to the concert. No. Now you just remember your mom couldn’t fight that feeling anymore.

 

Kristina  24:44

That’s what it’s about. So true, the littler things. Doesn’t have to be the-

 

Heather  24:49

I think about you would come with us to the place where we would go in the summer frequently. Yeah, and do you remember that little I don’t know was it the army surplus store? You always stop at where, I don’t know, like, we would always get the goggles, because you needed to have seven pairs per kid, because they were, like, $3 and they were gonna break and leak, and you just had that backup. Yeah, and do you remember that hideous little, I don’t know it was a little stuffed around thing. 

 

Kristina  25:16

We called it “Mugley.” I think it was a monkey, but it was super ugly.

 

Heather  25:21

So we called it Mugley. And we would just hide it, like, just do these stupid things. I was like, “That thing is so ugly, I have to have it.” And so I bought it. It was $1 and I would like hide it in my boys’ underwear drawer. And then they’d find it. And they’d put it in my Vitamix. And then I would find it, and it just was this thing that kept going. It costs hardly any money.

 

Kristina  25:42

I remember coming into the living room and there’s Mugley going around on the ceiling fan.

 

Heather  25:47

Or like duct taped to the lid of the toilet. Like all the things, right? It just became this huge, like, one- upping thing. And they still talk about it. I still hide that stupid thing.

 

Kristina  26:00

And you never know when it’s gonna show up.

 

Heather  26:03

And then there it is and the delight that it brings, right? And then it’ll show up in my space. And it just keeps going. And so those things cost very little, but they’re the important things.

 

Kristina  26:14

I’ve said before, and I will say it again: You don’t have to make life a carnival for your child. Sometimes, at least for me, and I know I was older when I had Grace, I just had to make things reasonable. Just breathe it in and do what you can do and make it something you can manage. 

 

Heather  26:35

Because some people have Pinterest boards. Some people have Pinterest fail boards.

 

Kristina  26:42

And that’s okay. So when I think about some of the things that we can make ourselves crazy with in a schedule, those can be some of them we’ve talked before, about our dear sweet guardians. And you need to be really careful about the things that you do, because you may have just inadvertently started a tradition. Because they want everything to be a tradition every time. All the elaborate anything. They think we’re going to do this every single time. And sometimes you walk yourself right into a corner as a parent, because you could do it with one, but oh, two, and then there were three. Now there are four, and you can only put out so many Easter Bunny trails from their door, criss crossing through the home, all the way to their baskets before you’re like, “I have created this monster myself.” So being mindful about those types of things are important too.

 

Heather  27:38

Some of the sweet, little magical things. Vince has always done, Daddy-daughter, day with Grace, which is a sweet time where it’s just connection and routine and really time. It is time. Like that whole like, what is it? “How do you spell love to a child? T, I, M E.” It’s true.  It’s so true. I used to do date nights with each one of my kids. And they were just simple little things where we would go. It was one on one time, which felt so special when you’re in the mix of three. And it was in the evening, which also felt special. So we would do those things. And they weren’t expensive. And they weren’t elaborate. It was just time. I alluded to the red plate. You had told me about this. And I did this in my home. I had never heard of it, but-

 

Kristina  28:29

I grew up with a red plate. So growing up I think it was my grandma that gave it to us. We were a red plate, a red bowl, and a red cup. And if something special had happened for somebody in the family, as the table was being set for dinner, that red plate would appear at the place that you sat at the dinner table. And sometimes you had no idea what it was there for, but it was a way that my parents could acknowledge and the family could celebrate something good that had happened. Maybe it was a specific kindness. Maybe it was you done well on a project that you had going. Maybe it was because you got a job. It could be lots of different things. But simply having the red plate and the red cup and the red bowl was a celebration. Again, doesn’t need to be a carnival. But boy, when you came down and saw that red plate at your spot, or if you were setting the table and mom said, “Put the red plate at John’s spot,” you were like, “Oh, what happened? What are we celebrating?”

 

Heather  29:37

And it’s really fun to celebrate those things for character, recognizing things. Generosity. Anything that you want to build. It’s just fun to do that for character building stuff. 

 

Kristina  29:54

It’s a lovely little family tradition and very special. And not like the red plate’s out every night. No, it’s, it’s a special thing that would come around maybe, like, once a month, and it’s not on your schedule.

 

Heather  30:05

No, you just whenever-

 

Kristina  30:10

And the beautiful thing is, it’s noticing, making sure that you’re noticing those things within your family. Yeah, and then celebrate. 

 

Heather  30:18

And then it’s fun when the kids pick up on it. And they’re like, “Oh, get the red plate.” Yeah, you know. And then it’s very fun to do that. You couldn’t ask for the red plate. No, that’s not what it was about. Oh, no, certainly you could notice it for somebody else, and that’s part of the sweetness of it.

 

Kristina  30:38

So when we think about our schedules, Heather, it really goes back to: what’s our foundation? Right? With the things that we allow in our lives, in our schedules, who’s it serving? 

 

Heather  30:55

What are we giving our time to? What are we allowing in?

 

Kristina  30:59

Is it in line with our values and foundations? And how much stress will participating in this thing bring for all. And keeping that commitment to saying “yes,” being involved in some of those things are really good, ensuring that we have margins around the things and time in our family to just be and to celebrate the little things-

 

Heather  31:28

And to teach the balance. To teach kids how to balance, because it’s a skill they’re going to need always.

 

Kristina  31:37

And if we infect them with that sickness of busyness, then it will be just that much harder for them to step away from it. If we can model stepping away from it that kind of insulates them against that really illness, that sickness of busyness, moving into their lives. So way back in the beginning, you said we need to be mindful.

 

Heather  32:00

It really comes back to mindfulness, comes back to your priorities, comes back to centering yourself.

 

Kristina  32:09

And how much more joy-filled is the entire journey when we’re able to wrestle our schedules, have things intentionally present and intentional open spaces.

 

Heather  32:21

I make sure we have enough time to be outside to reap those benefits, to play,  and to get enough sleep.

 

Kristina  32:31

I love it. 

 

Heather

Me too.

 

Kristina

I’m so glad we talked about this. 

 

Heather

Me too.

 

Kristina

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather

32:45

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina  32:50

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell. 

 

Heather  33:07

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  33:15

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  33:27

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land, and nature. To learn more and get involved go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 16: Sleep And Bedtime Routines

 

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges of sleep in children and the importance of establishing a consistent bedtime routine. They share personal anecdotes, highlighting the differences in their children’s sleep habits. Kristina recounts her daughter’s struggle with sleep due to chronic ear infections and the misguided advice she received. Heather emphasizes the significance of sleep for brain development and the impact of sleep deprivation on parents. They recommend creating a calming environment, avoiding screens before bed, and using sleep signals like mellow music. They also discuss how co-parenting and persistence are crucial for establishing effective sleep routines.

 

“Bedtime…The research shows that there are more significant times in the day that are significant to the child for attachment and connection and – ding, ding, ding – if bedtime isn’t one of the times!”

 

The Importance of Sleep and Its Challenges

  • Kristina emphasizes the significance of sleep and the frequent questions parents have about it.
  • Heather mentions that sleep is a skill that not everyone is naturally good at.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the differences in children’s sleep habits – how some kids are natural sleepers like Heather’s son, Luke –  and the challenges of dealing with poor sleepers.

 

“…There are some people that are just naturally better sleepers than others… teaching my daughter how to sleep was definitely a process, and was not short. It went on. It had some hang time as she learned to become a better sleeper and built that skill…”

 

Personal Experiences with Sleep Deprivation

  • Kristina recounts her daughter’s difficult sleep habits and the chronic ear infections that contributed to her poor sleep.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the bad advice they received about letting their children cry it out.
  • Kristina shares how they eventually figured out that her daughter needed ear tubes, which helped her sleep significantly.
  • Heather explains the importance of sleep for brain cleansing and the impact of sleep deprivation on cortisol levels.

 

“One of the things that I hear more frequently than I did two decades ago was that early evening time was the only time the children were going to see one of the parents because of work schedules, right? They were off to work before the children got up. They were returning home during the time that I would recommend they begin transitioning to sleep…

 

There’s also another culprit here, right? There’s these smartphones that didn’t used to exist, which is a whole other thing for parents to manage, right? Because they’re always connected to work. And there’s this whole other thing that we have kids on screens, which impacts, we know, sleep and brain stimulation as well…So there’s actually a lot to think about when you’re trying to set up what is the routine going to look like as we shepherd our child to sleep? And how long is that going to take, and the intentionality behind it.”

 

Establishing Sleep Routines and Transitioning to Sleep

  • Kristina talks about the importance of a consistent sleep routine and the concept of transitioning to sleep.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges of managing children’s energy levels before bedtime, especially with the influence of screens.
  • Kristina mentions the significance of bedtime as a time for attachment and connection.
  • Heather and Kristina share strategies for creating a calming bedtime environment, such as dimming lights and playing soft music.

 

 

“So we very intentionally established some sleep signals…We chose a CD that we could live with for the rest of forever. And we played the same CD every night as soon as we were done reading books. So there would be this softening of the family. The softening of the lights. The quieting of the voices. The turning down the energy level. And we would go upstairs, prepare her in her pajamas, brush teeth, move into her bedroom, where we had a rocking chair, and the rocking chair is where we’d read books every night. Reading those books while she rocked was such a tender time…And it’s great connection time. When the books were done, and we read three, because I needed a boundary on it, and I was exhausted, and I needed to get my own downtime. After those books were done, we would turn on the CD, I would swing her lovey over my shoulder, and that became her signal to put her head down on my shoulder. And it was time to move toward her bed. So I also had a rule of three for the CD. I would rock her through three songs, and then she would be put into her crib, and that was the pattern we established.”

 

The Role of Parents and Co-Parenting in Bedtime Routines

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the impact of parents’ energy levels and routines on their children’s sleep.
  • Kristina shares how her husband learned to help transition their daughter to sleep without energizing her.
  • Kristina emphasizes the importance of co-parenting and taking turns with responsibilities to maintain consistency.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the benefits of having a bedtime routine and the importance of persistence in establishing it.

“Connection is so important to them, right? And if we can just sometimes pause and say, ‘Why does this behavior make sense?’ We are asking these little people to go this huge stretch of time without us, without any encouragement. And it’s the darkest time of the twenty-four hour period, right? So if you can think of it that way, it allowed me, even when tired, to have more empathy. Of course, they want to connect. Of course they might need a little reassurance, a little rub on the back. “You’re okay. I’m here. It’s time to go night night.” Those types of things I think are normal. It doesn’t mean they’re easy when we’re so tired.”

 

Addressing Children’s Bedtime Concerns and Emotional Needs

  • Heather recalls her daughter’s specific bedtime requests and how she handled them with empathy.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of connection and reassurance for children at bedtime.
  • Heather shares her strategy of having “mom and dad time” to reinforce the importance of their relationship.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the need for children to feel loved and secure before going to sleep.

 

“It’s never too late to start a new routine for bedtime. Never too late. And once you do that has a lasting impact. And it takes time…they begin to learn how to diminish their energy as they move towards sleep, because it’s been their pattern from the time you started this routine so that becomes to feel normal to them. I’m not going to choose to engage in these activities that rev me all up. I know that the screens are turned off an hour before I go to bed. I know that the music I’m going to listen to is going to be more calming, and it ushers in a much more peaceful time. Doesn’t mean there won’t be bombs going off sometimes, but it takes time…Well, we’ve said for years, if you haven’t tried something for three weeks, you haven’t really tried it.”

 

The Impact of Consistency and Persistence in Bedtime Routines

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of consistency and repetition in establishing a bedtime routine.
  • Heather returns to the analogy of a ship to explain the process of course correction and the need for patience.
  • Kristina emphasizes the need for persistence and co-parenting support to maintain a consistent bedtime routine.

 

“So that transitioning to sleep and thinking about shepherding your child toward rest, reminding them as you put them down that they are loved no matter what, that you are so grateful to be their parent that you can hardly believe that you’re fortunate enough to have them in your family. Okay? And to let their little heads hit the pillow with those thoughts dancing in their mind is beautiful.”

 

Strategies for Handling Bedtime Challenges and Emotional Regulation

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of understanding children’s emotional needs and providing reassurance.
  • Heather shares her strategy of using deep breaths to help her daughter fall asleep.
  • Kristina and Heather reiterate the importance of maintaining a calm and consistent approach to bedtime.
  • Heather shares a humorous anecdote about her daughter eating the blown kisses from her mother, an example of connection rituals that can help at bedtime and times of transition.

 

“They become these little philosophers that emerge in the nighttime and, really, what they’re looking for is connection. It’s not about needing one more drink. We can’t possibly give them enough water at night. It’s not that they need to do one more thing. It’s really that they’re seeking this connection.”

 

“I would say to her, ‘You do your deep breaths and get down to the business of going to sleep. I’m going to come in ten minutes and check on you.’ And that was enough for her, of like, you’re coming back. And I would usually nine out of ten times go back and she’d be out, right? Once in a while she’d be awake. And I’d just peek in and wave and blow a kiss. The blowing a kiss from afar is a fun thing…No words, right? At this point, we aren’t doing any words, just loving looks, maybe a little blown kiss, maybe a little encouragement of ‘you’ve got this,’ right?”

 

The Role of Attachment and Connection in Bedtime Routines

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of attachment and connection during bedtime.
  • Kristina emphasizes the need for children to feel loved and secure before going to sleep.
  • Heather shares how she and her husband modeled a strong relationship for their children through “mom and dad time.”
  • Kristina and Heather wrap up the podcast by encouraging parents to persist in establishing a consistent bedtime routine.
  • Heather shares her final thoughts on the importance of connection and reassurance for children at bedtime.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Notes: 

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

 

In prior episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In a prior episode, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel

  1. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood

Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard

Louv:

Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive

functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s

Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 16: Sleep And Bedtime Routines

 

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re talking about one of the biggest struggles parents face: sleep and bedtime. 

 

Kristina  00:06

Oh, we’ve been working with families for years, and we know just how tricky sleep can be for both kids and parents. Seriously, sleep was brutal for us when Grace was young. 

 

Heather  00:18

Oh, I remember that. And let’s be real, bedtime is often the time of day when kids turn into these little philosophers. They pull out all the stops and ask all the questions.

 

Kristina  00:32

Totally. It’s like the day is winding down. They’re tired, and suddenly they’re these really deep thinkers contemplating the mysteries of life.

 

Heather  00:41

And that’s also when the bedtime struggles begin. So we’re going to share some tips on how to create a consistent bedtime routine that can help kids wind down and get the sleep they need. 

 

Kristina  00:52

Sleep is so important, and yet it’s one of those things that doesn’t come naturally to all kids. So we’ll talk about our personal experiences with sleep struggles, share some practical strategies and give some ideas that will make bedtime a little easier.

 

Heather  01:09

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  01:12

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  01:26

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good, long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan; and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  01:48

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are

 

Heather  01:54

Are you ready? 

 

Kristina and Heather

Let’s hit the trails. 

 

Heather

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:13

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives. 

 

Heather  02:21

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. Welcome back. We’re so glad that you’re here. Grab a hot cup of coffee, tea. Join us. We’re going to talk about sleep. We want you to be awake.

 

Kristina  02:43

I’m so glad we’re talking about sleep today, because it is incredibly important. And people ask us about sleep all the time. It is something that parents really struggle with, how to help their child sleep, how to make sure the household is getting enough sleep. And-

 

Heather  03:03

And it may be something you struggle with yourself, because what do we say all the time? Sleep is a skill, and oftentimes people haven’t been taught how to sleep well.

 

Kristina  03:13

Right. Now, that being said, there are some people that are just naturally better sleepers than others. 

 

Heather  03:21

This is my son, Luke, right? Luke is a sleeper. My grandmother had six children. If I could impress her, it was quite a feat. I remember going to her home with a sweet little blanket that was soft, that Luke loved. And he would come and say, “I’m tired, Mommy, I’m ready for a nap.” And I would lay the blanket down in her formal living room, where nobody else was going to be, and she had a little sliding door that came out of the wall. And he would lay his sweet little head on that blanket and go to sleep. And my grandma would look at him and say, “Hmm, never seen that before.” That was nothing I had done. There was no great skill. It’s just who Luke is, right? When he’s ready to sleep, he’s gonna lay down and sleep, and he needed that sleep. He’s a smart boy with a big brain, and he’s six foot two at this point. He was growing, right?

 

Kristina  04:17

And if you’re fortunate enough to have a kiddo who is just naturally a good sleeper, put that in your little gratitude journal, because not all of us have that kid, right? 

 

Heather  04:28

Yeah, it’s not a feather in your cap. Probably came into the world that way. 

 

Kristina  04:31

Just really appreciate it, right? You know, my daughter was a horrible sleeper from the time she was born, she was-

 

Heather  04:39

Absolutely, I remember these later phone calls, these early morning phone calls, right? Your dark, dark circles under your eyes.

 

Kristina  04:45

Yes. And in fact, I ended up keeping a calendar for several years, where I would mark on the calendar each day the times that she was awake.

 

Heather

And I remember the celebrations if she stretched out a sleep.

 

Kristina

If she could get more than forty-five minutes. You know how I’d heard these things about parents of newborns and how there’s all this time while they’re napping, and my child had none of that time because she didn’t nap. It ended up that she had chronic ear infections, which made her extremely uncomfortable, and so she wasn’t able to sleep, but I didn’t know that at the time. I learned that later.

 

Heather

And you got lots of really bad advice. 

 

Kristina

I got lots of advice that made me feel like a really terrible parent. Yeah, already, from the beginning…

 

Heather

She was “manipulating you.”

 

Kristina

I had people tell me that my three month old was manipulating me. 

 

Heather  05:42

You needed to “let her cry it out.”

 

Kristina

Yep, exactly. 

 

Heather

And I remember you calling and saying, “Do you think I need to do that? And me saying, “No!” Right? Like she’s communicating a need. We don’t know what it is, but eventually you got it figured out.

 

Kristina  05:58

Yeah, eventually we got it figured out, and we got those tubes, and that helped tremendously. But even so, she still struggles getting to sleep and staying asleep. And so teaching my daughter how to sleep was definitely a process, and was not short. It went on. It had some hang time as she learned to become a better sleeper and built that skill, but I would worry that whole time, right? She’s not getting enough sleep. Then I wasn’t getting enough sleep. So I was-

 

Heather  06:32

And the more sleep deprived you became, the more worried for her developing brain you became. 

 

Kristina  06:37

Absolutely. I’m thinking sleep is critical in brain development, and my child’s not sleeping, so I would weep and wail sometimes, and I was beside myself because my child wasn’t getting enough. 

 

Heather  06:51

Part of the reason you were beside yourself is because even as adults at night, when we sleep, we know that our brain cleanses itself. It gets rid of the junk. It processes kind of like the “garbage,” and it gets it out of us. And that’s why sometimes our dreams can be super wonky, but you weren’t having that process happen. There’s also another stress hormone called cortisol, which is supposed to be lower, right,  we’re heading into sleep, and then those hormone levels change. Well, you weren’t having a normal rest process.  So your cortisol levels were wonky. Your brain wasn’t having these long stretches and this opportunity to cleanse the garbage out. So your “garbage” – 

 

Kristina  07:41

Was accumulating. For sure. And I wasn’t getting it. She wasn’t getting it. We were in trouble.

 

Heather  07:47

And it feels then everything feels more stressful. Everything feels more frustrating because we don’t have our normal tolerance.

 

Kristina  07:56

Yep. So I would add up her time, and I would think to myself, “This is not sufficient. This is not enough. So what can we do?” So very early on, my family, and I recommend this to parents a lot when they come and talk to us, I ask them to describe what that process is in moving their child towards sleep. I like to call it “transitioning towards sleep.” 

 

Heather

Some family call it “the witching hour.” 

 

Kristina

Yes, well, it is “the witching hour.” Absolutely. Yep, that is a real thing. You are not alone. We have “the witching hour” in our home too. But when I talk to parents and people, you know, raising and nurturing children about what that time, the hour, hour and a half before bed, looks like, you hear a lot of different things. One of the things that I hear more frequently than I did, you know, two decades ago was that early evening time was the only time the children were going to see one of the parents because of work schedules, right? They were off to work before the children got up. They were returning home during the time that I would recommend they begin transitioning to sleep. 

 

Heather  09:14

Yep, there’s also another culprit here, right? There’s these smartphones that didn’t used to exist, which is a whole other thing for parents to manage, right? Because they’re always connected to work. And there’s this whole other thing that we have kids on screens, which impacts, we know, sleep and brain stimulation as well.

 

Kristina  09:37

Absolutely. So there’s actually a lot to think about when you’re trying to set up what is the routine going to look like as we shepherd our child to sleep? And how long is that going to take, and the intentionality behind it.

 

Heather  09:55

And what we know we’ve talked a bit in other episodes about attachment. Bedtime – there are –  the research shows that there are more significant times in the day that are significant to the child for attachment and connection and “ding, ding, ding,” if bedtime isn’t one of the times.

 

Kristina  10:16

It sure is. So for those families who have these busy days, and perhaps a parent only gets to see the child during this time that is transitioning to sleep, you need to figure out what you’re going to do with that. That was true for my family. My husband, you know, traveled a lot for work. He works very long hours. And oftentimes, if he was in the country and in town, he could come home for a period of time, but it really was like in that six thirty/seveno’clock kind of time range. And that’s when, for our daughter, we needed to start that transition to sleep. But boy, did he like to tickle her.

 

Heather  10:56

Oh, and dad’s like to bring the energy. I don’t know if you’ve ever been like the community pool, right? And it’s transitioning in the late afternoon hour from like, the moms have all been there and they’re with the kids, and there’s babies on hips, and kids are just playing, and you hear squeals of delight, and then all of a sudden, around like, four thirty, children are flying through the air. And it’s like, “Oh, the dads, the dads have arrived.” It’s the same thing oftentimes. And if you’re getting home from work, if it’s that later hour, all of a sudden the kids are flying through the air in the home, right?

 

Kristina  11:32

Absolutely. Or it’s a great time for a wrestling match. 

 

Heather

Or some chocolate. 

 

Kristina

Oh, that was the other thing: Chocolate every night with daddy on the couch. Yep. So while those may be lovely things and nice times of attachment-

 

Heather  11:48

They’re not serving us in the best ways.

 

Kristina  11:51

Not at that time. No. Because what those activities do is they energize your child and well – 

 

Heather  12:00

And they mirror neuron, right? Kids mirror neuron. 

 

Kristina

Say more about that.

 

Heather

I remember watching my husband come home and my Zack, who was – He’s always gonna be our oldest guys. He’s our oldest. And he would sit and kind of like, he would like do this posturing with his body, knowing, like, “My dad is home and he’s gonna throw me up in the air. And we’re gonna do, I don’t know, man, stuff.” What do you do with a baby? I don’t know. But like, he sensed that energy was coming and that it was vastly different than my energy. And so I think Grace knew when Vince would come home, he was all like, so excited to see her – 

 

Kristina  12:49

Right? This is my precious little time. And we have fun doing these things together, you know? 

 

Heather

And so the energy goes up.

 

Kristina

What was a beautiful thing is he learned, and I didn’t have to say anything about it. He’s an amazing dad, but he picked up on that, that escalating her activity and having her get all jazzed up before bed wasn’t helpful. And he began something that we referred to as “the tour.” He would come home from work, and he would pick up Grace. And he would hold her facing outward. And he would bounce and walk her around the house, very slowly and quietly, say things to her like, “Oh, that’s pink. It looks really soft. Let’s touch it” and then have her touch it. And move to another space, and, “Oh yes. You see that light.” And he instinctually began doing this transition to sleep. 

 

Heather

That’s darling.

 

Kristina

Isn’t it? It was wonderful. And it was a time that I could brush my teeth finally and maybe take a shower. It was so great, but – 

 

Heather

We’re glad you got to brush your teeth. 

 

Kristina

Well, they were days, let me tell you what, that I don’t think it happened, because that’s just the reality.

 

Heather

Let’s not go back to those days.

 

Kristina

It was a terrible time. So anyway, he instinctually knew that she needed help transitioning into sleep. So when I say to parents, “Let’s talk about what your routine is before bed,” lots of times it’s, “Well, you know, we have dinner, and then my kids watch a show, and then it’s bath time, and then after bath time, they watch one more show, and then it’s books and bed.”

 

Heather  14:34

Let’s talk about the difference in shows. Well, it’s energy level. There’s a difference between energy levels. So there’s a difference between watching, what do kids watch? Bluey. What do kids watch these days? I’m not familiar with the shows, but the concept is, if it’s fast and it’s whirling and it’s lights and it’s sounds, they match that energy. Versus, if it’s like sing-songy and lullaby-ish, you know? Like, I remember we had an evening CD that would play that was just more mellow and quiet and sounded like lullabies versus the music that we would play if we’re gonna have a five minute quick cleanup in the house, right? Vastly different energy. We wanna move, right? But kids pick up on those subtle differences. And so if you’re watching a show that’s zooozoooozozoozoo bing, bang, boom. All this fastness. What do I even say? I don’t know, quickness, all of this energy, their energy goes up.

 

Kristina  15:52

Yep, absolutely. So consider the hour to hour and a half before you’re hoping to put your child to bed, and think about how you are structuring that time. What is the light level? What is the noise level? How much time is your child on the screen? And how during that time are you shepherding them toward rest? So we developed this routine with Grace, involved the tour when she was younger, and then as she got older, lots of parents like to give baths at night. And you need to assess whether that’s the best time to bathe your child. For us, baths energized Grace. It was not helpful in transitioning her to sleep. So those baths would have to come earlier in the day. 

 

Heather  16:45

For our family, we bathed at night. It was the sweet little lavender scent soap, right? I can bring some calm and soothe. 

 

Kristina

Oh, girl. We tried the soap. This was just not happening.

 

Heather

Well, and there’s a difference in kids, right? I have three, and that’s another thing. Like you had one. How do you do it? How do you do your bedtime routine when you’re staggering kids? That’s another thing to think about.

 

Kristina  17:08

So we very intentionally established some sleep signals. Like you, you played a CD at night. We chose a CD that we could live with for the rest of forever. And we played the same CD every night as soon as we were done reading books. So there would be this softening of the family. The softening of the lights. The quieting of the voices. The turning down the energy level. And we would go upstairs, prepare her in her pajamas, brush teeth, move into her bedroom, where we had a rocking chair, and the rocking chair is where we’d read books every night. Reading those books while she rocked was such a tender time.

 

Heather

And it’s great connection. 

 

Kristina

Great connection time when the books were done and we read three, partly because I’m pretty anal retentive, and partly because I needed a boundary on it.

Heather

And you were exhausted-

 

Kristina

And I was exhausted. And I needed to get my own downtime. After those books were done, we would turn on the CD. I would swing her Lovey over my shoulder, and that became her signal to put her head down on my shoulder, and it was time to move toward her bed. So I also had a rule of three for the CD. I would rock her through three songs, and then she would be put into her crib, and that was the pattern we established. 

 

Kristina 

Now, I know this is a controversial thing for really young children of the whole, you know, “cry it out” kind of thing. We didn’t do that with Grace, although I tried, because I was desperate at times, you know, with my hand, like stuck at a weird angle through the crib railing, to try to keep the passy in her mouth, to try to get her to fall asleep without her actually seeing me. And, you know, throwing my back out in the process, and doing all of those things to try to help her sleep.

 

Heather  19:18

And we think about connection as so important to them, right? And if we can just sometimes pause and say, “Why does this behavior make sense?” We are asking these little people to go this huge stretch of time without us, without any encouragement. And it’s the darkest time of the twenty-four hour period, right? So if you can think of it that way, it allowed me, even when tired, to have more empathy. Of course they want to connect. Of course they might need a little reassurance, a little rub on the back. “You’re okay. I’m here. It’s time to go night night.” Those types of things I think are normal. Doesn’t mean they’re easy when we’re so tired.

 

Kristina  20:07

Yes, absolutely. 

 

Heather  20:13

And if you have one, two, three-and they’re like setting off, like they’re detonating, like little bombs in the house, it’s like, “Oh, well, which mine field do we run to now? You know it can have some hang time when that all is happening. And sometimes you can get to the point where you think “We’re never going to sleep again, right? Like it’s just not going to happen. We’re done sleeping-“ 

 

Kristina  20:33

Or we’re never going to sleep again without me hollering and being the person I don’t want to be to get my kids to stay in their rooms. I mean, we’ve heard from parents who literally lock their children in their rooms. 

 

Heather 

Please don’t do that. 

 

Kristina

No, please don’t do that. That’s a very unsafe thing to do. But they’re at that point, right? Not bad people. Desperate people. Yes. So I know we’re talking about this in infancy, but as your child ages – First of all, it’s never too late to start a new routine for bedtime. Never too late. And once you do that has a lasting impact. 

 

Heather

And it takes time.

 

Kristina

Yes, they begin to learn how to diminish their energy as they move towards sleep, because it’s been their pattern from the time you started this routine so that becomes to feel normal to them. I’m not going to choose to engage in these activities that rev me all up. I know that the screens are turned off an hour before I go to bed. I know that the music I’m going to listen to is going to be more calming. And it ushers in a much more peaceful time. Doesn’t mean there won’t be bombs going off sometimes.

 

Heather  21:47

But it takes time. Like once a parent decides to impose this new routine, whether or not you recognize it or not, the child is used to what they’re used to. So how long do you think it takes? Like, how much repetition before they begin?

 

Kristina  22:05

Well, we’ve said for years, if you haven’t tried something for three weeks, you haven’t really tried it. Because parents will say, “I tried it once and it didn’t work. That doesn’t work for us. The breathing doesn’t work. That this doesn’t work. Nothing works.” I think, “Well, your child’s adjusting. And what we know about when we change what we do, it changes what the child does. It takes them a while to be able to adjust to that, to recognize, “Oh, it’s not going back to the way it was. I need to learn a new way of doing this.” And so we expect things to get worse before they get better. That’s something we’ve said in therapy.

 

Heather  22:43

We talk about the ship a lot, right? So you’re out to sea. You’re on course. You step away for a minute. You look there’s a sailboat ahead of you. And, all of a sudden, you pull that wheel to miss that sailboat. You’re not immediately back on course. You veer off a minute and then you get back on. But it takes a bit when you get off course to make your way safely back. And you have to allow for that tide, right? You have to allow for that course correction. Sometimes that takes longer than we would like, because we’ve made up in our minds “We’re going to deal with this. We’re going to start anew,” right?” 

 

Kristina  23:22

Yep. And then you need to have the persistence to be able to do it. If you are fortunate enough to co parent, and you can look somebody else in the eye and be like, “We’re doing this. It’s really hard-“

 

Heather  23:32

And when I want to give up, you have to hold me accountable. 

 

Kristina  23:37

Yep. If, again, if you are fortunate enough to co parent and your lives allow, it’s a lovely thing to either put children to bed together or divide and conquer, but switch off. Often we’ll have parents come and say, “Well, my wife is the only one that can put the child to bed,” or “My partner is the only one, because when I try, they just scream for the other parent.” And it’s like, “Well, how often do you do that?” Well, you know, whenever, once a month, my, you know, husband has XYZ, and I have to put the kids to bed. It’s like, “Well, no wonder your child is screaming. It’s not that they don’t love you. It’s that it’s not their routine.” So if you can switch off, flip, flop, back and forth, it allows for some of that freedom. I mean, let me tell you what: in the beginning, it can feel really darling that, “Oh, my daughter just wants me to be the one to rock her to sleep.” But that loses its darling nature fairly quickly. You want somebody else to be able to put the child down. So that transitioning to sleep and thinking about shepherding your child toward rest, reminding them as you put them down that they are loved no matter what, that you are so grateful to be their parent that you can hardly believe that you’re fortunate enough to have them in your family. Okay? And to let their little heads hit the pillow with those thoughts dancing in their mind is beautiful. 

 

Heather  25:08

Okay, so one thing that I recall specifically happening that tried my patience, and I have way less when I’m tired and it’s the end of the day and I’ve been with these beautiful little darlings all day long. But you go to put them to bed, and we’re at the point where we all get them down, and then all of a sudden, it’s like, “Mommy. Mommy.” No, I don’t think I hear anything. “Mommy!” Darn it, I hear something. So I go, “Yes?”, “Why do crackers have lines in them?” “Honey, it’s bedtime,” “I know, but I was just wondering.” Like, all the mysteries of life come out at this time. And one of my personal favorites is when they’re like, “Why do things die?” And it’s not like, we can just say, “I don’t know let’s ask Ritz tomorrow. How do you make your crackers?”

 

Kristina  26:09

They become these little philosophers that emerge in the night time and really, what they’re looking for is connection. It’s not about needing one more drink. We can’t possibly give them enough water at night. It’s not that they need to do one more thing. 

 

Heather  26:27

It’s really seeking that connection. And so I remember this distinctly being like, “Man, they really pull out all of the punches to just get you back in there.” “I’m too hot.” “I’m too cold,” right? “I don’t like these socks.” It’s all the things , right? And they really just want us back in there. My daughter used to have identical blankets because she was my third and I was skilled. By the time I got to her, I was like, “Oh, you buy whatever is their favorite blanket. You have more than one, because, Heaven forbid you lose that blanket.” 

 

Kristina

Well, and hey have to go in the wash at some point, right?

 

Heather

Exactly. Well, hers had, and she had named them Scruffs and Fluffs. And so it became the thing of one was softer than the other. “Mommy, this is Scruffs. I don’t want Scruffs. I want Fluffs.” So, and at this point, you just, I want to open the door and scream, not in her bedroom. I want to go outside and scream because I’m tired. And so what I did and started doing, from a pretty young age, with my oldest, and then my other kids had just heard it from being in proximity , as we had “mom and dad time,” at our house. We had “mom and dad time.” And what we said to our kids, and this goes back to your foundations, right? Like this is something mom and dad need to take time to be together uninterrupted and enjoy one another’s company, and to relax together, because that keeps our relationship strong. And that was something that we set up as one of our foundations to model for our children. We both come from divorced homes. It was fine. We’re both fine. But we wanted to model that intentionally for our kids: we are going to make time for one another. And so we would be like, “You know, it’s mom and dad time. You’re on, mom and dad time. I’m gonna give you one more hug and one more kiss. You can dream about crackers. We can solve that mystery tomorrow. Here’s your water bottle. Here’s Fluffs. Here’s Scruffs. You got everything you need.” And then I would say to them, “You do your deep breaths. And you – these are some magic words, guys – even though it was mom and dad time, I would say, and this is to my daughter in particular, because I think the boys would be up later than her, and she was just like, “Life is so unfair. I go to bed the earliest.”

 

Kristina  28:59

Right.

 

Heather  29:03

I would say to her, “You do your deep breaths and get down to the business of going to sleep. I’m going to come in ten minutes and check on you.” And that was enough for her, of like, you’re coming back. And I would usually nine out of ten times go back and she’d be out, right? Once in a while she’d be awake. And I’d just peek in and wave and blow a kiss. The blowing a kiss from afar is a fun thing. My daughter – I don’t know what in the world – I blame it on having two older brothers, but I remember her standing in her crib, and the first time I blew her a kiss, and she wasn’t even a year old. She grabbed it from the air and went, “Ow,” and put it in her mouth. And I was like, “Okay. Eat Mommy’s kisses right on up.” And so that was kind of her thing. So I would just blow her a kiss and she’d grab it and eat it.

 

Kristina  29:57

We just, again, textbook. No words, right? At this point, we aren’t doing any words, just loving looks, maybe a little blown kiss, maybe a little-

 

Heather  30:08

And the encouragement of “you’ve got this. I’m gonna go be with daddy.” “I want to be with daddy too.” “I know, but he’s mine now. Bye, bye.”

 

Kristina  30:18

Sleep tight. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  30:29

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until next time

 

Heather and Kristina  30:34

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina  30:40

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  30:51

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  30:59

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on, outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  31:12

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 15: Building Resilience In Our Kids

 

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of allowing children to experience frustration and disappointment to build resilience and problem-solving skills. They introduce the concept of the “wall of futility,” where children must confront and process their emotions to develop coping and adaptability skills. Emphasizing empathy over rescue, they highlight the need for parents to resist the urge to distract or minimize their children’s feelings. They share personal stories and strategies, such as acknowledging feelings and not rushing to fix problems, to help children navigate through disappointment and adapt. The conversation takes a look at finding the balance between advocating for children and fostering their independence.

 

“…We have entire generations of individuals who haven’t built that skill. Their frustration tolerance is very low. They don’t have the skills to manage being disappointed…If a child doesn’t have the opportunity to feel disappointment, to have someone surround them in that disappointment, and then to get good at that coping and adaptability, we grow up to have an adult who doesn’t function very well in the world…And we have the opportunity to teach that. How cool is that? We just need to know how.”

 

Building Resilience vs. Rescuing 

  • Kristina introduces the topic of allowing children to experience frustration and disappointment as essential for building resilience and problem-solving skills.
  • Heather emphasizes the importance of approaching children’s distress with empathy and moving them towards acceptance.
  • Kristina discusses the temptation to minimize children’s feelings or distract them, which can hinder their growth.
  • Heather highlights the value of celebrating children’s ability to work through disappointment without excessive praise, fostering independence and confidence.
  • Kristina introduces the concept of the “wall of futility,” where children face their emotions head-on, crucial for adapting and coping.
  • Heather stresses the need to resist the urge to rescue children and instead allow them to hit the wall before moving towards acceptance.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the balance between advocating for children and allowing them to develop independent skills.
  • They emphasize the importance of acknowledging our children’s journeys, not just the outcome.

 

“Approaching that ‘wall of futility’ with your child…We do that with all the empathy in the world. We do not diminish it. We do not threaten. We do not, you know, try to distract even if it seems ridiculous to us. We say, “Oh, I see how disappointed you are. You were really hoping to XYZ, and so you’re disappointed that that didn’t happen.” 

 

And you stay in that empathy until they hit the wall. And, you know, they hit the wall, really, when those tears come. Or there’s this big, deep breath and you hear something like, “Maybe next time” out of their mouths, or, “I guess I could go do something else.” They come up with it. And what that is is adapting. They are coming into being able to accept. It’s acceptance. And then it’s learning how to adapt and practicing that skill. And for us, it sometimes takes everything within us to resist that urge to fix all of those problems.”

 

Personal Stories and Empathy

  • Kristina and Heather share personal stories about their own children navigating difficult times, stressing the importance of empathy.
  • Heather talks about the challenge of watching children struggle but resisting the urge to swoop in and save the day.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the need to foster empathy while understanding that life’s challenges are essential for growth.
  • The balance between advocating for children and allowing them to develop independent skills is reiterated.

 

The Role of Empathy in Parenting

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of empathy in parenting, acknowledging children’s feelings without minimizing them.
  • Heather shares her experience of telling her children that it’s hard for her to watch them feel disappointment, emphasizing the importance of being present.
  • Kristina and Heather talk about common parental reactions to children’s distress, such as minimizing feelings, threatening, or distracting.
  • They discuss the importance of allowing children to experience frustration and disappointment to develop problem-solving skills.

 

“I mean, just seeing our kids, even of their own doing, experiencing pain and disappointment – it’s really hard. It’s painful for us. I remember saying to my kids, as they were getting bigger and making decisions and had to miss out on things, “It’s really hard. It’s hard for me too to watch you feel that disappointment.” 

 

“We distract them, because we just want the frustration and the distress to end. And we want to move them right back into happy. And that is a way to really kind of cripple our children, because they’re never allowed to actually experience frustration. We’ve never been taught as parents the importance of frustration in our children’s development…That’s very true. When we leap right over the hard, then we have kids, as they grow, that can’t manage hard. And hard will come…”

 

Building Resilience Through Emotional Experiences

  • Kristina and Heather talk about the importance of allowing children to experience their emotions fully, including sadness and disappointment.
  • Heather shares a story about her son Zack, who solved a problem independently at the airport, highlighting the value of building resilience as a life skill.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the need to resist the urge to fix all problems and instead allow children to experience their emotions.
  • They talk about the importance of building resilience in children to help them manage hardships and adapt to life’s challenges, which are inevitable.

 

“The other really beautiful thing is that the more a child experiences being kind of shepherded to the ‘wall of futility’ the less they need to hit the wall… it becomes a much shorter journey as time goes on and their confidence goes up…Their happiness is experienced more fully because they’ve also experienced great sadness and great disappointment.”

 

The “Wall of Futility” and Emotional Development

  • Heather introduces Gordon Neufeld’s concept of the “wall of futility,” where children need to be brought to their feelings of sadness and tears before moving beyond them.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of empathizing with children to help them reach the wall of futility.
  • They discuss the process of moving through the stages of grief – including denial, anger, bargaining, sadness, and acceptance.
  • They talk about the importance of being present and not rushing to distract children from their emotions.

 

“Rather than saying, ‘I’m so proud of you,’ I started saying to them, ‘You should be so proud of yourself.”..it seems like a subtle shift, but it was really impactful to them. Even in texts, like ‘you should be really proud of yourself.’ And they respond to it so differently than ‘I’m so proud of you,’ because it feels different to them. It’s their ownership, right?”…And I’ll ask it as a question, ‘Do you feel proud of yourself, because that was really hard…And you did it!’ And building that sense of confidence, like ‘I did do it, I did do it.’”

 

Practical Strategies for Building Resilience

  • Kristina and Heather discuss practical strategies for building resilience in children, such as acknowledging their feelings and not minimizing them.
  • They discuss the importance of building resilience in children through everyday experiences, not just big events.
  • Kristina gives an example about her daughter’s upsets, and how she handled different situations with empathy.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of recognizing opportunities to be on the same side as children and supporting them through their emotions.

 

“So it’s that line of, as a parent, advocating for them, but also determining what’s going to grow them, what’s best for them. And those can be tricky things to tease out, really tricky things to tease out. And for me, just like I had recommended that he live with his choice, I had to kind of do the same thing myself and really think about what is my ‘why’ on this? Because if my ‘why is too enmeshed in his feelings? That’s not a good place to be. I’m not serving him well as his parent. But if I felt really confident that I was listening to him, that I wasn’t forcing anything on him, that I was listening to his logic of the, you know, thirteen or fourteen year old boy, then I could feel good about my own actions in response to that.”

 

Balancing Advocacy and Independence

  • Heather discusses the challenge of balancing advocacy for children and allowing them to develop independence.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter Grace, who has dyslexia, ADHD, and struggles with anxiety and depression, and how she navigated advocating for her.
  • Heather talks about the importance of listening to children and not forcing them to do things that they are not ready for.
  • They talk about the importance of celebrating children’s independence and problem-solving skills.



The Role of Empathy in Parenting

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of empathy in parenting and how it helps children navigate their emotions.
  • Heather shares a story about her son Zack, who did not want to go on a school trip and how she advocated for him.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of being present and empathetic with children, even when it is difficult.
  • They discuss the importance of building resilience in children through empathy and allowing them to experience their emotions.

 

The Importance of Community and Support

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of having a support system and community to help navigate the challenges of parenting.
  • Heather shares her experience of having a “village” to check her and help her make decisions for her children.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of resisting the urge to fix all problems and allowing children to experience their emotions.
  • They close by reiterating the importance of building resilience in children through empathy and the joy that comes from allowing them to develop their own problem-solving skills.

 

“And resilience is a really key component of emotional well-being. And along with that resilience and those coping skills, also come problem solving skills. If you are stuck in the distress and frustration, and you have been trained your whole life that you will be rescued from it, somebody is going to come in and make it all better, then they never have the opportunity to develop their own problem solving skills…and they rely on others to do that, to come in and do it. The real risk is going through life as a victim, where just things happen to you, rather than being an active agent in your own life.”

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Notes: 

 

In a prior episode, Kristina and

Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.”

This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In a prior episode, we reference

concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting

without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel

  1. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood

Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard

Louv:

Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin

N 

 

Natural

Start Alliance 

 

Children

& Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and

Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive

functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s

Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 15: Building Resilience In Our Kids

 

Kristina  00:00

Welcome back, everyone. Today, we’re diving into a topic that might feel a little tricky: allowing our kids to experience frustration and disappointment.

 

Heather  00:09

Yes, it sounds counterintuitive, but these experiences are absolutely essential for building resilience and problem-solving skills.

 

Kristina  00:18

Absolutely. We’re going to talk about the concept of the “wall of futility.” It’s where kids face their emotions head on, which is crucial for adapting and coping. 

 

Heather  00:29

And here’s the thing, we need to approach their distress with empathy, allowing them to hit that wall before moving them towards acceptance, right?

 

Kristina  00:38

It’s tempting to minimize their feelings or distract them, but that can actually hinder their growth. We want to empower them, not rescue them.

 

Heather  00:50

Exactly, celebrating their ability to work through disappointment without showering them with praise builds their independence and confidence in themselves.

 

Kristina  00:59

It’s all about acknowledging their journey, not just the outcome. We’ll share some personal stories about our own kids navigating tricky times. 

 

Heather  01:08

Oh, those moments are pure gold. It’s so important to resist the urge to swoop in and save the day, especially when it’s so hard to watch them struggle.

 

Kristina  01:20

Definitely. We need to foster empathy while also understanding that life’s challenges are essential for growth.

 

Heather  01:29

And let’s not forget the balance between advocating for our kids and also allowing them to develop those independent skills that can be a really fine line to walk. 

 

Kristina  01:39

So true finding that balance is key. Let’s dive into these strategies and stories and help our listeners navigate this important aspect of parenting, nurturing resilience in our kids.

 

Heather  01:57

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood,

 

Kristina  02:00

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  02:13

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan; and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  02:35

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  02:41

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  02:42

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  02:48

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  03:00

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives. 

 

Heather  03:09

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  03:18

Welcome back. We’re so glad that you decided to join us today. We get to talk about building resilience in our children, and I’m excited to talk about this today. I know you are too, Heather.

 

Heather  03:30

I am. It’s an important skill, a really important skill.

 

Kristina  03:35

And we have entire generations of individuals who haven’t built that skill. Their frustration tolerance is very low. They don’t have the skills to manage being disappointed. And they are very much attuned to wanting what they want now.

 

Heather  03:54

Yes. Instant gratification, a lot of validation needed and an inability to adapt. Wow, it is a really big factor. And resilience is really building the skill to be able to adapt. 

 

Kristina  04:13

It is and we get to talk about how we can build that in our children. It’s not especially complicated, but it is something that many of us do not do naturally. It takes some real intentionality behind it. And in fact, you know, I’m, we’re social workers, I tend to be a rescuer, and I’ve had to work on that in my life.

 

Heather  04:37

We’re different in this way. Yeah, we tend to, well, we both have empathy and compassion, and, sister, you do have more of it. And our training is different. I mean, we both went through the same graduate program, but I also have a Criminal Justice –  I mean, I think one class more, and I would have had a Bachelor’s in Criminal Justice, because I just loved it so much. So I’m trained also in all of that, justice and accountability, and so we like to say there’s an awful lot of empathy, but there’s also a little kick in the butt at the end of it.

 

Kristina  05:14

Yes, yes. And I have learned to do the kick in the butt at the end of it, but it’s taken some work, because I am naturally inclined to want to rescue people. If anyone is distressed or if they are upset or if they are grieving, I am all in with the empathy and wanting to help them move to a place where they’re feeling less distress, where they’re feeling more comfort and more peace. And the same is true for working with children. 

 

Heather  05:44

It’s really good that you’re comfortable in that space, but so many people aren’t. And I imagine that’s why we have a solid generation, maybe generation plus, of kids that are struggling to cope with lots of things. So it’s great that you’re comfortable in that space, but it’s how do we get parents to understand that we need to be comfortable in that space and be present in that space, right? Because people want to just get to the happy. They want to move through too quickly. So people have been saying forever and ever and ever: This next generation. Are they broken? Like, what’s wrong? Right? No responsibility, right? Yeah, irresponsible, going to hell in a hand basket. Like, these are things that have been said forever and ever and ever. And really it’s that our world has always changed and evolved, but this digital technology world changes faster than I mean, just even for us post grad school, like do you remember an undergrad? I don’t know about you, but I had to trudge to the fourth floor and make copies. Or you had to look through the micro film. Oh, we’re really aging ourselves. But like, you can just pull – we can pull stuff up on the internet now, and it’s right there at our fingers while you’re still in bed.

 

Kristina  07:12

I mean, it’s crazy, right? The access to these things. It is. So building resilience is even more important, because there’s so much coming at us as adults and our children so quickly, so many opportunities. Our schedules are so full, there’s less time to connect.

 

Heather  07:33

And there’s way more to manage with a developing brain. Way more to manage. I think about my childhood where we just kind of played all day in the summer and we weren’t being shuttled from all these activities. And there really weren’t many activities to be involved in. There just weren’t.

 

Kristina  07:52

You rode around on your bike with your neighborhood friends.

 

Heather  07:54

You did. And now there’s just so much. Many of them, very good things to be involved in, but the ask on children is bigger. Way bigger. The demands are higher. The ask on parents is way bigger, for sure.

 

Kristina  08:13

So learning how to build resilience in children is kind of critical. 

 

Heather  08:21

Really, really could have, really, if you think of it in terms of what happens is if a child doesn’t have the opportunity to feel disappointment, number one, to have someone surround them in that disappointment, and then to get good at that coping and adaptability. We grow up to have an adult who doesn’t function very well in the world. They just don’t know how to function in the world, right?

 

Kristina  08:54

And we have the opportunity to teach that. How cool is that? We just need to know how. So for me, Little Miss empathy over here, I like to be with people in the midst of their upset, have them not alone. But I don’t like it when people are feeling upset, especially my own daughter. So most parents don’t right. We don’t want our kids to feel frustrated. We don’t want them to be upset and disappointed. It’s not happy and sad.

 

Heather  09:23

I mean, just seeing our kids, even of their own doing, experiencing pain and disappointment, it’s really hard. It’s painful for us. I remember saying to my kids, as they were getting bigger and making decisions and had to miss out on things, “It’s really hard. It’s hard for me too to watch you feel that disappointment.” 

 

Kristina  09:46

So because that’s so hard, we do a couple of things as parents. We can minimize what our child is feeling, you know, “Oh, you know, that’s not such a big deal. That’s not, you know, that’s not so bad.” We can minimize it. Or we threaten, like, “I’ll give you something to cry about,” which is a phrase that’s been uttered more times than I can ever imagine. Or if our child is in the midst of upset, we try to distract them and we say, “Hey, let’s go look at the puppies. Let’s go look at the puppies at you know, the breeders, should we go for a walk and get some ice cream?” We distract them, because we just want the frustration and the distress to end, and we want to move them right back into happy and that is a way to really kind of cripple our children, because they’re never allowed to actually experience frustration. We’ve never been taught as parents the importance of frustration in our children’s development. 

 

Heather  10:50

That’s very true. Wow, they should change them absolutely when leap right over the hard. Yes, because then we have kids, as they grow, that can’t manage hard. And hard will come 

 

Kristina  11:05

Yes. Yes. And resilience is a really key component of emotional well being. And along with that resilience and those coping skills, also come problem solving skills, absolutely if you are stuck in the distress and frustration, and you have been trained your whole life that you will be rescued from it, somebody is going to come in and make it all better, then they never have the opportunity to develop their own problem solving skills.

 

Heather  11:38

And they rely on others to do that, to come in and do it. The real risk is going through life as a victim. Yes, where just things happen to you, rather than being an active agent in your own life. I think of when we returned, this was a few years back, my oldest, Zack, was driving, and we had all traveled together. And he had driven his vehicle to the airport. We left it there along with ours. He parked in a little bit different area, but his battery had gone dead in the long-term parking and, of course, we had flown. We were ready to go home. It was still like a forty-five minute drive from the airport. And my husband knew this because they had walked out together. The rest of us stayed with the luggage, and he came back and he said, “Oh, Zack’s got a dead battery. We’re gonna have to figure that out.” And my husband had started – I don’t know if he had called someone or if he had talked to airport security. I’m not sure what he had done. And they were like, “Oh, yeah, you’re gonna have to call a tow truck.” And Zack, who was probably seventeen at the time, he was still in high school, said, “Oh, Dad, don’t worry about it. You guys just go. I’ll find somebody and they’ll help me because I’m a kid. Like the airport people will be way more likely to help me because I’m a kid than to help you as a grown man.” And you know what? He was absolutely right. And we were like, “Fair enough, we’re out of here.” We’re gonna go and turn the heat back out in the house and, you know, unpack. And he had called within like, twelve minutes, we had gotten down the expressway, and he’s like, “I’m all set. I got a jump.” And Travis said, “Who helped you?” He’s like, “Oh, one of the security guards.” He was absolutely right.

 

Kristina  13:22

And he had the skills to solve his problem. He absolutely did that independently, which is beautiful. Yes. So one of the reasons we get excited about talking about this is because allowing your child to experience their distress and their frustration without rescuing them from it, or without trying to fix it, is, at least to me, counter-intuitive, and I think that’s true for a lot of us, parents, to allow them to be sad and to allow them to experience that is tricky. 

 

Heather  13:56

So any of us are just uncomfortable in those emotions.

 

Kristina  13:58

Yes. So we want to really talk about, how do we better support our children in building their resilience through their times of upset, through their times of disappointment, through their times of distress, because it’s important that we learn how to navigate those times. So that instead of creating a victim who doesn’t have problem solving skills, we’re building an individual who has resilience, right?

 

Heather  14:29

So one thing that we talk about a lot in the classes we teach is the “wall of futility,” which is this idea by Gordon Neufeld and we were introduced to Gordon Neufeld in Susan Stiffleman’s book, Parenting Without Power Struggles, which we both love. I think it is a powerful parenting book. She puts things in very simple terms, and then uses really powerful examples to illustrate those points. Which I really like about her book. It’s wonderful. But Gordon Neufeld is a psychologist who says children need to be brought to the “wall of futility.” And he talks about it, that children that are experiencing disappointment need to be moved into their feelings of sadness and even really tears. Yes, they have to move through those emotions to the point of tears before really being able to move beyond. Yes and adapt. And that once those tears come, and I believe he, or Susan, one of them, talks about like, sometimes even priming the pump for the tears, like, if you see your child and they might have that little lip quiver going, that you can just empathize with them so much and make a sad face and say, “I know it’s so hard. We love visiting grandma and grandpa and the cousins. So hard. We had such a good-“ and all of a sudden the tears are falling. 

 

Kristina  16:15

Yeah, you’re about to make me cry. That’s really good. You’ve got a really good-

 

Heather  16:17

And once those tears come, the child has a level of understanding that life doesn’t always go the way we plan, but that in the midst of it,

 

Kristina  16:31

We can be okay. That you can survive.

 

Heather  16:35

You can absolutely survive. And you can rely on the people around you to be in those feelings with you. I think it’s the movie “Inside Out,” which is a good number of years old, but I think in there, it specifically says, you cannot feel full joy without also experiencing sadness, right? And this is the same idea, we can remember the wonderful things about being at Grandma’s with the cousins and all the things, and at the same time, hold the sadness of it’s coming to an end. And then we fully grieve that, that it’s happening, and the tears come. But we adapt with the understanding of, “I can do this, I can make it.” And I’ve got this person – mom, dad, whomever it might be – here with me. Yep, being present, not rushing to all of the things that you said in the beginning. Let’s go get ice cream. Right? Knock it off. There’s no reason for that. We’ve had a wonderful time. You don’t say “If you cry, we’re not coming back again,” right? Just being present.

 

Kristina  17:47

Yeah and approaching that “wall of futility” with your child. We do that with all the empathy in the world. We do not diminish it. We do not threaten. We do not, you know, try to distract even if it seems ridiculous to us. We say, “Oh, I see how disappointed you are. You were really hoping to XYZ, and so you’re disappointed that that didn’t happen.” And you stay in that empathy until they hit the wall. And, you know, they fit the wall, really, when those tears come, or there’s this big, deep breath and you hear something like, “maybe next time” out of their mouths, or, “I guess I could go do something else,” 

 

Heather  18:39

They come up with it. And what that is is adapting. Yes, they are coming into being able to accept. It’s acceptance. And then it’s learning how to adapt and practicing that skill. And for us, it sometimes takes everything within us to resist that urge to fix all of those problems. And to just soak in all of that emotion for them, rather than letting them experience it. But having them experience it, it really is a grief response. And so you literally move through the stages of grief, which are denial, anger, bargaining, sadness or depression, and then finally, acceptance. The sadness and depression part is those tears, right? It’s knowing you have come all that way from the denial, and then maybe an anger tantrum is what that would look like with the young child, and then the bargaining. But it’s all where they attempt to negotiate.

 

Kristina  19:50

Yes. And your little parental heart is going to want to soothe them and make it better and make it better.

 

Heather  19:56

And we need to just keep going. And then from bargaining we go into that sadness, “I know, honey, yeah, we’re just, we’re gonna really just sit here and be so grateful for the time we had with grandpa and grandma, but we’re leaving.” And then acceptance, and that’s the skill building.

 

Kristina  20:29

Sometimes we think of this being just a skill you build in early childhood, but this technique the “wall of futility” works no matter how old you are. No matter how old our children are, it still works. The other really beautiful thing is that the more a child experiences being kind of shepherded to the “wall of futility,” the less they need to hit the wall. 

 

Heather  20:58

Yeah, because they build the shepherding they need. Yes, like it becomes a much shorter journey as time goes on and their confidence goes up. Yep, their happiness is experienced more fully because they’ve also experienced great sadness and great disappointment.

 

Kristina  21:19

Yep, so it can be something like leaving grandma and grandpa’s or it could be something like being at the store and really wanting to buy Oreos, but you’re not buying Oreos this week because you’ve had Oreos in the house the last six months, and you just can’t- I mean, you’re eating Oreos like crazy. So we’re not getting the Oreos, but the child really wants the Oreos. And that’s an opportunity for them to reach the “wall of futility” as well. We’re not getting the Oreos, but it’s not me as the parent getting frustrated and angry with my child who really wants the Oreos. It’s being able to recognize, and this is tricky. In the midst of it is being able to recognize, Aha, I have an opportunity to be on the same side as my child. “Oh, I know, boy, it was fun having those Oreos in the house, wasn’t it? We used to lick that cream, ooh, and dunk them in the milk, and it was so fun. I know, yep. We’re not going to be getting the Oreos.” “But I really want them” and maybe the tantrum comes and as the adult, you’re also tolerating this upset and saying because it’s part of the process.

 

Heather  22:23

Yes, and that’s what we can remind ourselves in the midst of it. It’s like, “Okay, we’re in anger. We’re progressing. Next they’re gonna try to bargain with me.”

 

Kristina  22:36

Yep, exactly. We know what’s gonna happen. Yeah. So you don’t have to wait until there’s a big thing that’s happened that your child is so super distressed over or disappointed about. We have these things happen every day. So maybe it’s you know, Grace has chosen to wait until the weekend to do the majority of her schoolwork that makes her pretty lousy Saturday and Sunday, when it’s like, oh, you’ve got six algebra assignments. And she gets upset about that, and she goes on about how, you know, algebra is so stupid, and why do I have to do it? And she’s all escalated. And that’s yet another opportunity to say, “Yep. I know. Yep, and I wish you didn’t have to do them too, but they’re here to do.” And it’s not a time for me to say, “Well, you chose to wait until the weekend to do them. And now it stinks, right?”

 

Heather  23:28

I mean, at Grace’s age, they know that they don’t need us to tell them, right?

 

Kristina  23:31

And in fact, part of that process was beating herself up about the fact that she had waited and so again. So real life, yes. But walking to that wall and then having that big “Okay, let’s get started,” right? Like, yep, because reality is reality, the algebra needs to get done. It’s not going away. Huffing and puffing isn’t going to change it. It just has to get done. So moving through the upset to that point of resilience and to the point of adaptation and acceptance, it’s like a little dance that you do, and the more you do it, the more the skills grow.

 

Heather  24:14

Starts very early. It could be over toys. It could be over socks. It could be over so many things, big, little, the issues get bigger as the kids get bigger. But like you had said, the more we bring them to the “wall of futility,” the more quickly they’re able to move through those stages of grief and then realize, “Okay, it is what it is” which is really the essence of the “wall of futility.” It’s the acceptance of: this is the reality and of that, where we’re at, and it’s not going to change. And then that’s the adaptability piece.

 

Kristina  24:56

Yes, we can without intending to make that process take a whole lot longer, if we forget when our child or our partner or our spouse is experiencing the distress and disappointment, if we forget that we’re on the same team, right? Well, yeah, if you go poking the bear, oh no, you are with them with empathy up to the wall. It’s not the time to say, “Oh, you’re so ungrateful. We got a toy last time we were at the store.”

 

Heather  25:25

And it’s not the time to teach, “Wow, if you’d have done that differently and made a different choice” or telling people to calm down…

 

Kristina  25:34

Yeah, nobody’s ever calmed down by being told to calm down. It makes me more angry the whole big time, like I”’ll show you, calm down. Here we go.” So being on the same team, you’re with your child in the midst of that upset as they approach the wall. You can, like you had said earlier, prime the pump, with your verbal skills and your non verbal skills – 

 

Heather  25:59

With the facial expressions, the, you know, the voice. Even if you can make your own eyes water. And some kids, we’ve had a lot of parents if a child is just kind of malcontent and just not just kind of combative all the time. For a young child, we talk about them having a low-grade fever of frustration, that’s just kind of simmering away. And we’ll ask, like, “Does your child cry very often?” And it’s an interesting question to parents, because they’ll pause, and kind of can see them really thinking, and usually they say “no.” And that’s because they maybe aren’t brought to the wall, and you don’t prime that pump. And they might not naturally be a crier, or they might not naturally be a child who’s going to be comfortable sitting in their feelings. Some kids are way more comfortable than others. Some kids really need to be taught how to do that.

 

Kristina  27:04

Oh, I love how you said that, “being able to sit in their feelings,” because that was what was difficult for me with Grace. I didn’t want her to feel that, right? I wasn’t comfortable. I wasn’t comfortable sitting with her in her feelings. And would have been prone to rescue. And so I really needed to be intentional about seeing those as opportunities to grow skills and breathing and identifying “I don’t feel comfortable, and that’s okay, because I know that feeling uncomfortable is survivable.” I can survive feeling uncomfortable, upset, disappointed, all the things we’re hoping to teach our children as well.

 

Heather  27:44

Yeah, it’s a super, super impactful and important skill to teach how resilience impacts them and the foundation to build it impacts them for the rest of their lives.

 

Kristina  27:58

I think as parents, too, we’ve come to this place where we almost think it’s our duty to help rescue our children.

 

Heather  28:08

Oftentimes, what I’ve heard parents say is, “My childhood was good, but I want their childhood to be better. I want it to be happier. I want it to be wonderful.” And that’s a wonderful thing, but if we shortchange them on their ability to cope, on their ability to manage, on their ability to adapt, they become adults who struggle to cope, who struggle to manage, and who struggle to adapt, and that is much more challenging than a child who struggles with those things. And we want to grow them. So it requires zooming out and reminding ourselves, when it’s uncomfortable for us, the reason why we’re doing it: We’re growing them. We’re showing them.

 

Kristina  29:04

And as the adults, being able to differentiate between advocating for your child and not allowing them to grow in their independence.

 

Heather  29:14

That can be a tricky line sometimes. Because we want to – I think it gets really tricky sometimes for parents. We hear all these really, I don’t know what I want to call them, negative, yucky, just these terms about parenting, like “lawnmower parent” or “helicopter parent,” or “hover mother” or “smother nature” or, yeah. I mean, there’s all sorts of them, right? But really the essence of it is that you’re kind of paving the way for your child, and we don’t want them to experience any bumps, right? Or any potholes or any bends in the road that they’re not anticipating. We just want it to be smooth sailing, the whole way.

 

Kristina  30:03

Removing any obstacles.

 

Heather  30:06

And really, that’s not life. It is not life, because there will always be things, big things, sometimes, that need to be conquered or managed or adapted to. And then how are we setting them up for that? So I’ve spoken before about my kids, who all have dyslexia, and that was a journey for me, advocating for them from a very young age, and then taking what I believed was best for them and advocating to be able to teach them in the way that I thought they needed to be taught. And then also seeing that through, but not ever leading them to believe that they had a disability or that they were less than or that it was an excuse, like “We’re gonna work hard. In fact, you have been working very hard.” But it is that line to dance between advocacy and I don’t even know what I want to call it, undermining growth I think is what it really is. So it can be a really fine lines sometimes, at least it was for me as a parent, between advocacy and independence. I didn’t want to short-change my child on being independent, feeling independent, growing independent, but there were times that I’ll talk about Zack when he was in, I think, the eighth grade, and he had the opportunity to go away on a school trip for I think it was three nights, four days, or four nights, five days? I’m not really sure. He had expressed he didn’t want to go. He had gone through this phase of not being terribly comfortable for a bit going away from home, which had been new for him, and kind of came out of the blue. But as I look back on it, kind of also went along with just, I think in general, a confidence decrease for him personally. You know, when school is really hard for kids that can shake their confidence and rattle them a bit. And I think that was probably it for him. It wasn’t a place of safety and security for him. And he didn’t feel good being so far away from home. My husband and I were not able to go. Other parents did go, and he had communicated that, but they really wanted to be able to say that a hundred percent of the kids went, and that’s a fine goal, if that’s what’s best for a hundred percent of the kids. And so I had to set up a time to speak with the teacher, who was wonderful. And I also had to just say, “You know, it’s not that he wouldn’t love this. He knows he would, and I’m sure there’s going to be some grief and that he’s going to miss it. But right now, he doesn’t feel well equipped to do that, and he’s been very anxious about it.” And while there’s real benefits to pushing yourself enough to overcome that, there can also be consequences that can set you back if you’re not listening, you know, to your inner voice on that. And that’s a really tricky space to balance as a parent. I think it’s a super tricky space to balance as a child. So Zack, we did the strategy that it was like when he was deciding stay or go, live with it. Just live with it one way or the other. Make the decision. Yes, I’m going live with that for a night or two, see how that feels. Now, make the decision, I’m not going and live with that for a night or two. How does that feel? And he ultimately decided it wasn’t something that he felt he wanted to endure. And so I advocated for him and said, you know, for whatever reason, I didn’t feel like I had to give great defense on that, because at the end of the day I’m the mom. He’s my child. I choose to put him in the school, and at the end of the day I feel like I’m the mom. I get to say, right? And so it was fine, and he didn’t end up going. And he had to do some other things to make up for that, but I remember saying to that teacher, we have to be really careful, because they had all of this mental health awareness stuff happening in his school at that time. And I said, we really have to make sure we’re listening to the children. If you want to do better, begin by listening and then not telling them what they need, but joining them where they’re at. And I said, I assure you, this child will go places and he will do things. I have no concerns of that whatsoever. And it was just a short two years later that he loaded on the church van and went to Colorado for a trip for ten days with our youth group. And that was great. And he had a wonderful time. And it was in his timing. And he felt really good about that. And it didn’t take very long. So it’s that line of as a parent, advocating for them, but also determining what’s going to grow them, what’s best for them. And those can be tricky things to tease out, really tricky things to tease out. And for me, just like I had recommended that he live with his choice, I had to kind of do the same thing myself and really think about what is my “why” on this because if my “why” is too enmeshed right? In his feelings? Yeah, that’s not a good place to be. I’m not serving him well as his parent. But if I felt really confident that I was listening to him, that I wasn’t forcing anything on him, that I was listening to his logic of the you know, thirteen or fourteen year old boy, then I could feel good about my own actions in response to that. Does that make sense? 

 

Kristina  36:49

It does make sense. And it’s part of what makes this whole thing right, helping to support our children as they grow their resilience, their problem solving skills. It’s not rocket science, but it is tricky in that it calls forth so many emotions. 

 

Heather  37:08

I just read  something, and I wish I could give credit to whoever it was. I have no idea, because I read a lot of things, but it said “parenting is a wonderful and worry-filled job,” and it really is. It is a wonderful, wonderful, worry-filled job. And it requires that balance. And it feels like a dance. It feels like a dance of, am I putting my foot down in the right place? Am I stepping on toes? Do I need to be more involved in this what’s the perfect balance of growth and independence versus advocacy support and health and support? 

 

Kristina  38:03

Oh, enduring that time with your child within the upset as they’re approaching the wall, not comfortable, but once they have reached the wall and moved to the other side into acceptance and problem solving. Oh, it’s like the angels sing and it will take your breath away. As a parent think “they are doing it! they have solved their problem. They have come up with a way to be okay with the disappointment, with the frustration, they have adapted!” and that is wow, one of those really, really wonderful moments.

 

Heather  38:45

It’s a proud parent moment. But I think it’s important to verbalize I started making this shift with my kids. Rather than saying, “I’m so proud of you,” I started saying to them, “You should be so proud of yourself.” And man, was that just, it seems like a subtle shift, but it was really impactful to them. Even in texts, like you should be really proud of yourself.And they respond to it so differently than “I’m so proud of you,” because it it feels different to them. It’s their ownership, right?

 

Kristina  39:24

And I’ll ask it as a question, “Do you feel proud of yourself, because that was really hard,” right? And you did it, and building that sense of confidence, like “I did do it, I did do it.”

 

Heather  39:40

You sure did. Remarkable. Those are the moments to write down in your journal someplace, so that you can go back and look at them later and be like, yes, lots of things are hard, but then this. Those are some sweet things to read when you need a little pick me up. So there are these terms commonly used to describe parents, and they kind of, I mean, I can chuckle at them, but they kind of make me crazy, because parenting is not an easy job. No, it is not. It is joyful and it is heartbreaking all at the same time. And it can be exciting, it can also be really worrisome. But these terms like “lawnmower parent” or “smother mother”, or “smother nature”, or “helicopter parents,” like we’ve probably all been called those. 

 

Kristina  40:38

I’m sure we have well, and they’re so derogatory. But the truth is that really, we’re doing the best we can, all of us, right? Every day, we’re doing the best we can. And trying to sort through our own stuff while trying to raise this human being and processing all of the things that came before in our life. I mean, it is not easy, right? And to have that reduced to “Oh, they’re a lawnmower parent” is – 

 

Heather  41:06

And I get how it happens. I get how we the world is a bit scary. There’s so many challenges. It’s so vastly different growing up today than when we did. And I get wanting to protect kids from that, and we want them to be happy. And we want them to be fulfilled and to not have to be sad.

 

Kristina  41:36

And especially when you have a child who maybe has their own set of additional challenges, right? So, you know, Grace has dyslexia, and she has ADHD, and she struggles with anxiety and depression, and it’s like, can I just move some of the obstacles out of her way? Because life is really hard. And so I just want to make something easier for her. And then figuring out, is that really benefiting her? Or is that about me? And what I’m feeling. It’s when you need your village right to have somebody else be able to check you, and you’ve done this for me, Heather, over the years, and say, “but that might be a really important skill for her to build”, “that might be a really important experience for her to have in order to support her growth,” speaking about Grace and challenging me to take a look at it and think, “Am I doing a disservice to my child and clearing the path?”

 

Heather  42:39

Yeah. It removes some of the practice, right? It removes the ability for them to overcome. So resilience and building resilience, first, we have to build our own I think, because parenting requires great endurance and courage, and community. I think we have to have our people around us to be able to do it well. And our children, it’s remembering to resist the urge to fix all of their problems for them, which is so tricky for all of us. And to allow them, as difficult as it may be to experience the feelings that come along with sadness and loss and disappointment, in order to grow their coping skills, in order to allow them to adapt and to eventually feel really good about their independence, and for us to celebrate that independence along with them.

 

Kristina  43:46

Absolutely. So when we’re shepherding our child to the “wall of futility,” that is a time of empathy on your part as the adult, on my part as the adult, I’m living into empathy in that place, which means, let’s give a scenario.

 

Heather  44:08

What would a common thing be?

 

Kristina  44:13

So I know I’ve mentioned before that my beautiful daughter Grace is passionate, kind of in every direction, right? Passionately angry and passionately happy. And things aren’t just funny, they’re hilarious. And she feels her feelings very intensely, all of her feelings. So one of the things that happens, and happened a lot when she was younger, and still happens now, even though she’s a teenager, is that when we are leaving something, if we’ve been like at our family reunion, been with the cousins and aunt and uncles and grandma and grandpa for a week and are getting ready to leave, or even if you know we’d gone over to your house, Heather, to play, and the girls were playing, and we were probably working on something or visiting and it was time to go, Grace always had a lot of grief. It was grief. It was it was grief. And she would cry. And I remember, you know, like leaving family reunions and thinking she’s gonna cry hard for a lot of this trip back, and we’ve got, like, twleve hours to go, and in the midst of that upset, needing to come to her with empathy, right? “We are leaving. The cousins are staying in Virginia and North Carolina and New York. We are headed back home Michigan.” So that’s not changing, right? And I could approach her with being on the other side.

 

Heather  45:44

What would the empathy sound like? 

 

Kristina  45:46

The empathy sounds like, “Oh, Grace. I know you love them so much, and they love you. And it was great to be together. It was, it was, and that’s why your heart is hurting, I know.”

 

Heather  46:02

Which is very different, from “Grace. Every time we visit, this happens. You know, we’re going back home We’re leaving. I don’t want to hear it.” 

 

Kristina  46:14

Right. Or even “Well, maybe you should have spent more time with your cousins while you were there, because there was that time when you were off all by yourself building Legos and you could have spent more time with your cousins. I mean, you wasted some of the time.” That is the approach that you don’t want to have. That’s me against you. That’s me telling you why you deserve to feel bad about it.

 

Heather  46:34

I’m passing judgment about how you spent your time, right? As opposed to coming alongside

 

Kristina  46:38

and saying, “Yes, my heart hurts because your heart hurts. And it’s sad. And you’re right, we don’t know when we’ll go again,” as opposed to, “Oh, well, we’ll be back there in a few months, and that’s not really that long. And you know, between now and then.” I always think to myself, sometimes as parents, we fall into this, like we almost try to be this little carnivalto distract them from the fact that they’re really sad or they’re grieving or something else. 

 

Heather  47:07

Yeah, it’s like a performance, yeah? And you’re an act, and that, that data, you know, it has to be appealing enough to draw them in, make them laugh-

 

Kristina  47:17

Make them laugh, and then it’ll all be better, as opposed to sitting with them and sharing that upset until the wall is reached right? And then it’s again, tears for Grace and that big sigh of, “You know, I wish we lived closer. It was so fun to be together…” 

 

Heather  47:40

And sometimes that wall and that grief, we can bring them to the wall, but going through those stages of grief, especially with big kids, can take some time. I think of my boys as they both went through breakups and saying to my husband, “I’m kind of worried about him. Man, he’s not himself.” And then in the midst of that, having to guide them through it and say “it’s really normal that you’re feeling this way. I promise it’s gonna pass. I promise it’s gonna pass. It takes some time.”

 

Kristina  48:17

And not “I didn’t like her anyway.”

 

Heather  48:21

No. Because she might come back, right?

 

Kristina  48:25

And that’s not a pro tip.

 

Heather  48:27

Sometimes they re-emerge. And then you’re like, “Oh snap.” No, you want to refrain from that until you’re a good long ways down the road past that, but, yeah, stay in empathy and normalize for them. And of course, if you see them doing unhealthy things and being unhealthy, then we gotta reach out and get them help, right? But we can’t short-change that process with big kids and big issues and big life lessons. They’re learning that grief and the bargaining and the sadness, they can just hang a little longer until we get to that acceptance. And then when they get there, we can just celebrate so much. And even if it’s “Wow, that was really, really hard” to be able to reframe it for them and say “That was super hard. But you learned in the midst of that and really, everybody goes through a breakup, and I’m really glad you had this practice, because next time, and there will be a next time, you’ll know what it feels like, and you’ll be better prepared for it.”

 

Kristina  49:56

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  50:02

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  50:06

Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails! 

 

Kristina 

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell,

 

Heather  50:23

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  50:32

Since 2000, the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  50:44

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land, and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 14: A Few Simple Strategies

 

Kristina  00:00

Today, we’re diving into some simple strategies that parents we’ve worked with have found super helpful. 

 

Heather  00:06

And these approaches begin with understanding a bit of brain development. Knowing what’s going on in the brain is key to helping our children calm when emotions run high. 

 

Kristina  00:15

Exactly. We’ll share some of our favorite techniques, like simply looking up, doing that helps shift focus from the emotional center of the brain to the frontal lobe. Basically, it’s a quick reset.

 

Heather  00:27

We’ll also explore using our senses. Shifting our focus to what we can see, hear, touch or smell, can really help pull our kids out of that emotional whirlwind.

 

Kristina  00:38

And here’s a biggie: those emotionally charged moments are not the time to teach. Trying to reason with a child who’s in meltdown mode is not going to serve anyone. 

 

Heather  00:50

Well, it’s just not going to happen. Instead, let’s tap into non-verbal communication. We’ll talk about what this looks like in practice and how it increases feelings of connectedness within our children. 

 

Kristina  00:59

We’ll also cover some useful phrases, like “first…then” to set expectations, “make me an offer I can say yes to” to encourage cooperation, and “it’s just the right thing to do” to instill values. 

 

Heather  01:16

Consistent, positive reinforcement is crucial. And clear communication helps build that all important connection with our children. 

 

Kristina  01:24

Just a reminder, these strategies take time. Don’t try to implement all of them at once. That can get super confusing for everyone.

 

Heather  01:31

Begin by focusing on only one. We think you’ll be surprised at how effective these strategies actually are once implemented. 

 

Kristina  01:40

Let’s explore some strategies together.

 

Heather  01:46

Welcome to Gear up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  01:49

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  02:02

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  02:24

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather  02:30

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  02:31

Let’s hit the trails!

 

Heather  02:37

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents. 

 

Kristina  02:50

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives.

 

Heather  02:57

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org, to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  03:07

We’ve talked about assertive voice. We’ve talked about empathy, expectation, choice. Let’s share some of our favorites that are quick. They are easy. They’re great to know about what’s happening in your child’s brain. And as soon as you get done listening, you can implement these things too. 

 

Heather  03:27

Absolutely. One thing we talk about a lot, and that we teach parents and teachers is that when a child is really dysregulated, maybe they are throwing a tantrum. Maybe they’re just really upset. They’re crying, and we’re trying to get them to calm. And that can be those moments of what I will often do is look up. And at our work, we’re oftentimes outside, so there are things to look up and see. Even in your house, you can look up. And the young child especially will almost always be like, “What are they looking at?” And look up as well. Look up as well. And it’s really hard for the brain when your eyeballs look up to be in your emotion center or your survival state. It brings you back to your frontal lobe. And so there’s at least a pause. And so I look up for a significant period of time, and then I breathe really deeply, and you hold it, and then you might see a bird or something in a tree, or an airplane, and for the young child, we can call any of those things to them. “Did you see that plane? Look at that.” And then all of a sudden, it is distraction, but it’s also they’re looking. They’re using their brain, their back and their frontal lobe, and the upset calms, yes, because they can’t be in both places at once in their brain, right?

 

Kristina  05:02

Because simultaneously, you cannot be in the emotional or survival state of the brain and be utilizing your senses, right? To take in information. So if you’re inside in my house, you could look up and say like, “Oh, there’s a cobweb. Oh, what’s that weird stain?” So you don’t have to be outside. 

 

Heather  05:24

No, you do not. There’s always something to look at, or a smell. It’s any of your senses. It could be. What do I see? What do I hear? What am I smelling? Sometimes it’s just making something up. Like, “Do you smell that? Yeah, is that- That stinks.” The kids always like the stinky stuff.

 

Kristina  05:46

Yes. So then all of a sudden they start trying to figure out what they’re smelling as well. So they start sniffing smells like macaroni and just random things come out. We had a parent ask one time, well, what do I do if I don’t smell anything weird, you may just pretend you hear something. I’ll often say, “Oh, my word!” And turn my head around. What? Oh, I hear that. Do you hear that? And soon they’re back up in their thinking part of their brain. They’re taking in information. They’re focused on what they’re hearing. And they often will hear something too, or they’ll say, “Why don’t I don’t hear anything?” But they’re up in their thinking brain. We’ve left our survival brain, we’ve left our emotional center, and we’re back to thinking.

 

Heather  06:35

And then we can get to a place where we can have a moment of connection. We have calm. It’s probably not the best moment to have the learning take place still. We’re too close to it. We don’t want to go back into whatever was causing great distress. Now it might be that they were refusing to do something, and then we go back into empathy. “That was really hard. You were really upset. I’m so glad that you’re calm and we can breathe” and all of that. But we don’t need every moment to be a teaching moment. And sometimes we can forget that as parents, because we just we want them to know. And we want to teach them. And we go there too quickly before they’re ready, and it doesn’t serve us well. 

 

Kristina  07:27

One of the things that’s really important for us to remember and to know is that when an individual is in their emotional center or survival center of their brain, that thinking part we know is kind of offline. That’s also where we house our language center. So too often, we use lots and lots of words in the midst of somebody else’s upset. And what that actually does is it doesn’t help them understand. It doesn’t teach them something. It causes them to become more frustrated, more agitated, because it’s confusing to them. So when we try to apply the logic in the midst of upset, you know, “You can’t have that cookie because we’re going to eat in twenty minutes. And if you eat that cookie right now, then you’re going to have a, you know, not the appetite that we want. You need to get strong food before you get weak food.” Nothing. You can bring in a sense, you can use empathy, expectation, choice. It is not the time to teach. So reflecting back sometime later to say, “That was tricky. You really wanted to have a cookie right then that was hard for you.” Ad you can talk about that later. “The reason we can’t eat cookies,” if that’s something you’ve established in your home, “is because it affects our appetite. And what we know about our bodies is they need…” That’s the time to have the conversation. Once you are removed from the upset. Everybody’s back in the thinking part of their brain. There’s your teachable moment, not in the time of upset or immediately right after it.

 

Heather  09:11

I think we move to that oftentimes too quickly, and it doesn’t serve us well. But it’s also not easy to stop doing it right? Because it could be that we’re frustrated too. And sometimes we talk about that we can get hooked as parents. And so something taps within us, and then it’s the “No, you are not going” and then it just the agitation is so increased. But it’s hard to resist those types of things. It’s human nature. When there’s a push, we want to pull. And so that can be really hard to resist. 

 

Kristina  09:56

So remembering senses, you can turn. Right? Later today, smell something. Hear something crazy, whatever it might be. Give it a shot. See what happens. I love this next strategy we’re going to talk about. And my mom is a like master with this strategy, and it’s highly effective. It is using your head to nod “yes” or “no” as you’re asking the question, as you are giving information with whatever you want the person to respond. If you want an affirmative response, you nod your head “yes,” up and down. If you want the person to give a negative response, you shake your head back and forth, shaking your head “no.” So it looks like this, my mother nodding her head up and down. “Do you think we should have ham at Christmas?” The crazy thing about this is because of mirror neurons, which we all possess, as you watch somebody shaking their head up and down, you begin to shake your head up and down, and your brain thinks, “Yes, I want this. Yes, this is a good thing.” So even as you’re speaking with your child nodding your head in the direction you’d like it to go. I know this sounds like trickery. I’m okay if it is, because it helps the person that you’re speaking to comply with what you’re asking. How do you see that used in your world, Heather?

 

Heather  11:32

Same way. And it can feel like trickery, but it’s very effective. Even as adults in the business world, even with sales people, they’re all trained in the nodding, because it’s really important, non verbal communication. We went through a period in time after some of the people that we work with came to our class didn’t dare to be in meetings with us afterwards, because it’s so effective. And it is a powerful thing. Another important thing to know, and again, it’s not manipulation. It’s just science. It works requesting in the “Yes.” You might think I won’t have time to do this. I can’t constantly get my child to say “yes” three times in a row before I give them a directive. No, you can’t. And you shouldn’t. There are times, though, that maybe are the trickier times. Maybe there’s something that’s harder for them to give up. Maybe there’s something that’s harder for them to move away from and to stop doing. And that’s the moment to maybe use the strategy of requests in the “Yes,” which the whole basis of it is you ask or make three comments and you get them to respond “yes” three times. So maybe it’s “You really enjoy playing with your Legos.” Yes, I do. “You’re really creative. Look what you built today. That is a really tall building. It’s the tallest,” whatever it is. “It’s really tall. And you did a really nice job sharing with your friend,” blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, yeah, we did it. We did really good. “Now it’s time to clean things up. We need to get everything back in the bin, because we’re gonna go to T ball practice,” or whatever it might be. But the three positives prime their pump for “yes.” And that maybe sounds manipulative. I just like to think of it as science and research.

 

Kristina  13:35

It is science and research as well. But the other beautiful thing that you do when you do the request, you know with “Yes,” it’s connection. It is connection. And it’s instead of “Yes,” instead of hollering from the other room, which we do a lot, like “Time for T ball! We have to leave in three minutes. Hurry, go.” Or my favorite, “hustle, hustle, hustle,” which never made anybody hustle. Please. Not in my family. So requesting with the “yes,” it’s also a lovely time of connection, which helps kids transition together. I see you. I value you. This is where we need to move.

 

Heather  14:15

Maybe we need to start using that one at work. See what happens.

 

Kristina  14:20

Okay, watch out, colleagues. Here we come.

 

Heather  14:25

Another really good one that we teach other people to use, and that we use all the time in our school settings, is “first and then.” Because oftentimes you’ll be moving the child towards what we need them to be doing, and they’ll say, “But we just-“ “First we’re going to… Then we can come back to…”

 

Kristina  14:51

Yes, exactly. “I really, really want to be able to go outside and play.” “Yes, absolutely. I want to play outside too. First go to the bathroom, then we’ll go outside.” One of the things I just did is saying “yes.” We want to answer “yes” as much as we can to the children. “I really want to get ice cream.” “Yes, let’s get ice cream tomorrow. First we’re doing this, then we’re doing something else.”

 

Heather  15:18

I remember being home, because I stayed home with my kids for a number of years when they were young. And there’s just tasks that need to get done to keep the place organized and keep things routine and keep things running, and they want our attention. And of course, they do. They’re little people who love us and we love them, but sometimes we have to do the dishes and sometimes we have to write out the bills and we have to take the dog for a walk and do the laundry, fold the laundry, the laundry. I love it. Always the laundry. So this is a great way to say, “Yes, I want to come out inside and play with you. First I’m going to fold this load of beautiful laundry, and then I’m gonna come out and play outside. First, we need to feed the dog. Then we can ride our bikes.”

 

Kristina  16:08

Yes, we can have a snack after we pick up the toys. So it’s first, then, yes, after. 

 

Heather  16:16

And those are just strategies that gain more compliance. They work really, really well, and it’s remarkable-

 

Kristina  16:22

The difference between saying “no” and saying “yes” after. We really want to reserve the “no” for especially when they’re young, things centered around safety, because often children hear “no” a lot. 

 

Heather  16:45

They’re just commanded a lot. I think the statistic that we saw most recently was 80% of things that are said to the young child are commands. That’s staggering. That’s eight out of ten, and it makes me pause and think, “Oh, what if my life eight out of ten things that people said to me were telling me what to do?” No wonder they’re screaming and howling and rolling on the floor. Sometimes it makes sense. 

 

Kristina  17:19

That’s a lot of commands, especially when they’re in a time in their life where they’re trying to assert their independence, that’s their developmental task. So really reserving “no” for things that require a “no,” which especially for the young child, really centers around safety.

 

Heather  17:37

Let’s talk about when we have a child who is maybe hitting a sibling or a friend or a neighbor, and you said “no,” is reserved for safety. This is also a really good time to use it. And that can sound like as you move in closely and gently, put their hands down to stop the hitting and say, “No, I won’t let you hit. It’s my job to keep things safe. It’s your job to help keep things safe.” That’s a great time to use “No.” It’s very clear. It’s stated as a good boundary, and we’re not going to hit-

 

Kristina  18:14

And we’re not going to say “No, thank you.” Yeah, “No, thank you.” Just Say “No, I won’t let you hit.”

 

Heather  18:22

Which also communicates “I’m in charge of this. And I got this.”

 

Kristina  18:29

Yep important. And in that situation, we follow up with coaching kiddos, if the person that was being hit, “Did you like it when she hit you?”, “No, I didn’t like it, tell her.

 

Heather  18:44

And we give them the script, depending on the age, say “I didn’t like it. Don’t hit me. Next time, ask if you can have a turn.”

 

Kristina  18:52

And so coaching those skills, right? 

 

Heather  18:56

We can’t have a turn hitting like we just are using that as an example. Have a turn with a shovel. Have a turn with – yeah, next time-

 

Kristina  19:05

Good clarifier. That’s good clarifier.

 

Heather  19:09

We’re not hitting anybody.

 

Kristina  19:10

But that right there is a beautiful teachable moment we talk about often. That if children don’t have the skills to meet an expectation, you’ll see misbehavior or maladaptive behavior. Well, they don’t just magically grow the skills we need to teach them. 

 

Heather  19:32

Yeah, and that’s a lovely example of a time to begin teaching the skill of giving the language advocating for yourself.

 

Kristina  19:36

And the skill to the child that was hitting to say, “I want you to look at his face. How do you think that felt to him?” Right? And then if the person has said, “I don’t like it when you hit me. Don’t hit me again. Next time go around.” We’ll say, let’s practice that well. 

 

Heather  19:55

And we’ll even say, “Tell him. What did what did you hear her say?” Now it’s time go around. Okay, let’s do it like this. 

 

Kristina  20:03

Let’s practice. You did it. And that’s-

 

Heather  20:07

And oftentimes, then they take off running and playing together, right? They’re not sworn enemies, no. That’s the beautiful thing about children. They forgive and forget so beautifully. We don’t always do that as well as parents. We’re like, “Bring me the child.” They take off and they forgive. And it’s a beautiful example of, “Oh, we made a mistake, and now we worked it out, and we’re moving on, and we’re happy.”

 

Kristina  20:32

So reserving the “no”, finding the teachable moments, which is not in the midst of upset, really important as children get a little older and up through their teens into their young adulthood. One of the strategies that I love is to use the phrase, “Make me an offer I can say ‘yes’ to,” right?

 

Heather  20:57

So a cell phone, right? Oh, that’s a big one,

 

Kristina  21:01

Yeah. Oh man. “You know how much I want to support the things that you’re, you know, hoping to acquire, but you need to make me an offer I can say ‘yes’ to.” “Mom, I’m gonna go spend the night at Judy’s, and we’re gonna go XYZ, until maybe two in the morning.” It’s like, “Oh, that sounds like so much fun. I’d love to say ‘yes,’ but you need to make me an offer I can say ‘yes’ to” and it puts it back on the child, right? To think through, “Hmm…” because lots of times they know they’ve asked us something completely unreasonable. 

 

Heather  21:39

Yeah, right. And instead of saying “no,” they’re gonna try it. I mean, mad props. Give it a try. You don’t ask, you don’t get see if you can get away with it today.

 

Kristina  21:43

But instead of just saying, “No, you’re not going to do that,” you say, “Make me an offer I can say ‘yes,’ to.” Give them the opportunity to rethink it, to formulate a plan that is something that to create their own boundaries.

 

Heather  21:57

Yes, that are rooted in what you’ve taught them. It’s a lovely way to see what they’ve taken in and have them get themselves to a reasonable place.

 

Kristina  22:08

So another little strategy, “Make me an offer I can say ‘yes’ to.” 

 

Heather  22:14

Another one that I really like is “it’s just the right thing to do.” “But why? Why do I have to do that? It’s okay. Nobody cares. They don’t care.” “It’s just the right thing to do.” And that can be used in a variety of different situations. And it really goes back to your foundations and what you value as a family, and it’s not laced with guilt. But there is such a thing as right and wrong, and “we believe that and it’s just the right thing to do,” is a good way to just kind of remind them that this is what we’re going to do. 

 

Kristina  22:49

Yep, my brother has a choir concert, and I don’t want to go. And so the parent says, “I know you don’t want to go. It’s the right thing to do. We’re going to go. That’s what we do for family.” Yep, we show up for each other. It’s the right thing to do. So another lovely strategy to use with kiddos who maybe don’t want to do what they need to do, what you’re asking them to do, is to remind them it’s just the right thing to do. Okay, one of my favorites that I want to share before we end things today is the strategy of asked and answered. And Heather, I’d love for you to kind of explain this. I think you do it in a really beautiful way. And whew, is it a nice strategy.

 

Heather  23:35

It’s really, really effective. And it’s all about how you introduce it in the tone that you use because we don’t want it to get snarky or dismissive, but it really is meant for whining, because whining can grate on all of us, and kids can beg and beg and beg and be pretty relentless. And so Asked and Answered, is one of those things that like anything else, we teach to our kids, so when they’re in this place of, “Please, please, can I, can I please spend the night at so and so’s? Can I please, please, please, please, please?” It’s like, “Sweetheart, we can’t do that. I told you, your brother has the choir concert, and we need to go to the choir concert because it’s just the right thing to do.” But mom, everybody’s going to be there, and I just want to go do that. It’s going to be so much more fun.” I understand you want to go to that. It’s not going to happen. But asked and answered. You’ve asked and I have answered.” And when they’re real little, you can say, “Look at my face. I have said, ‘No.’ I have answered your question. You’re asking again. You’ve asked, I’ve answered.” Do you remember what I said? Yeah. Still the same. But, but, but, but, but, Mom, mom, mom. It’s just asked and answered. And I think maybe once I did say to my child, “Look at my face. Look at mommy’s face. Do I look like I’m a mommy who’s gonna change my mind?” No, no, shaking their head. No, no. I’m not. Asked and answered. And then it dies.

 

Kristina  25:33

And once your child knows this kind of routine-

 

Heather  25:38

You don’t have to teach it every time. Then you just kindly say “asked and answered,”

 

Kristina  25:45

And you can look them in the face with a really kind, loving look and say, “asked and answered.” It’s not like I’m gripping the edge of the sink in the kitchen with, you know, my teeth all clenched saying “asked and answered,” right? Then I’ve lost my calm. And that’s not going to be helpful for anyone. So part of what it does is it eliminates all those words. It is eliminating you as the parent getting hooked, right? Our children throw out opportunities for us to get hooked all the time.

 

Heather  26:21

And they know when is our weakest moment, because they’re with us, and they see us and they observe us. So every kid knows. I used to say to my kids “When I get on the phone,” I mean, we had a rule in my house unless you were vomiting on fire or bleeding you waited until I got off the phone, because it’s like they could be engrossed in play, doing the thing they love most, and if that phone rang, they were transported right in front of me, hungry, tired, angry, with a problem, like it all happened right then, because they know when we’re distracted. Yes, it wasn’t necessarily about the phone ringing. They heard the sound of it, and they were like, opportunity big time. 

 

Kristina  27:08

Because I always say like, when you’re on the phone or at night, like, those are my worst parenting moments. At night, you get anything you want. I don’t care what I said during the day. I am tired. If you wake me up in the middle of the night because you want to crawl in bed with crawl in bed with me, come on and just don’t allow it. Yes, I just want my sleep. Or if I’m on the phone, it’s like, Yes, oh, whatever. “Have another cookie.”

 

Heather  27:31

And that gets us into trouble. Yep, because that’s a system we’ve set up and created. Our children are just on the receiving end of it, and people think that the child is manipulative. It’s like, no, we’ve just simply reinforced that behavior.

 

Kristina  27:48

They saw an opportunity. Yep, good for them. Good for them. So when we go back to “asked and answered,” you know, to be able to say to somebody on the phone “Just a minute, asked and answered” to the child, and what will happen? There is a little phase of the asked and answered strategy where they’ll ask you a question. You’ll answer them. They’ll ask again, and then they’ll kind of mutter, asked and answered and walk away. It’s like, yep, because now they know. 

 

Heather  28:20

And then you just say, “Oh, sweetie, you’re so smart.” My mom saw this in action the first time. I think Ava was maybe five, yeah, and observed, and was like, that’s some voodoo man. Like, those are some powerful words. Yep. I never thought of that, but it is a great strategy.

 

Kristina  28:42

If you’re going to use the strategy, make sure that your first answer is the answer that you want to give. So hey, all’s fair. You can buy yourself some time. You can say, “Hmm, I need to think about that a minute” when they ask you a question, because if you say “No,” or you say “yes” and then you think, which, this happens a lot for us, is you say no, you can’t do that. And then you think yourself, “Well, is it really that big of a deal?” Like, maybe it’s fine if she does that. Well, then you have to come back and say, “You know what? I thought about that more. I am okay, if you would like to whatever they asked.” So if you used “asked and answered,” make sure you feel real good about your answer, so that you can stick with it.

 

Heather  29:30

And that makes sense to return to it. In our house, we had a rule that if you asked one parent and got the answer you didn’t want you couldn’t go ask the other parent, hoping for a better answer. And if that happened, it was an immediate family meeting. Butts in seats. We’re all going to review the rules of the home and make sure we’re all on the same page. Because that gets real tricky, and can cause a lot of just really yucky feelings between parents. And that’s what we explain to our children, like, “Hey, you can’t put this rift between your father and I, because we want to have a good relationship, and we want to be your parents, and we want to all live here in harmony. And when you do that, it undermines something within the family structure. You can’t play us against each other.”

 

Kristina  30:24

Nope, my daughter was – oh, she was like a savant with this, asking Grandma and I love my mother, and she loves me. She loves my daughter. She used the strategy I used as a child when I wanted dessert, like ice cream, and I hadn’t really had a very good dinner. And I would say, “But mom, it’s ice cream. It just, you know, goes between all the cracks in in between my food.” I hear my mother saying to my daughter, “Yes, you can have ice cream. It just goes all between the little cracks, like, what you- Did you buy that when I was a kid? No. You’re selling it to my daughter. And then my mom would look up to me and say, “Oh, is that okay.”

 

Heather  31:13

A fun position to be in. A great position. I’m gonna be the joy crush.

 

Kristina  31:21

So we’ve shared a lot of different strategies today. Try one. Don’t try them all at once. It’ll be too confusing to you. It’ll be too confusing to the child. But pick one and give it a try.

 

Heather  31:34

It’s amazing how quickly you’ll see results.

 

Kristina  31:36

Yes, and we’ve heard from hundreds of parents over the years about how utilizing these strategies has really shifted the dynamic, the tone, reduced tension, increased the joy. So pick one, any one, and give it a try. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  32:07

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. 

 

Kristina  32:12

Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  32:29

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan. 

 

Kristina  32:37

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences, and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects. 

 

Heather  32:50

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 13: Beginnings and Endings

 

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of recognizing both beginnings and endings in life, especially during times of transition. They explain that parents play a key role in helping children navigate these changes by being present and supportive. They also emphasize the need to teach children how to handle the emotions that come with endings, like grief and gratitude.To help children cope, they suggest strategies such as creating memory boxes and using calming language. Heather and Kristina stress the value of letting children express their feelings and modeling healthy emotional responses. They share personal stories about transitions, like children starting school or parents starting new jobs, highlighting how these moments can be bittersweet and need time to process. The conversation reminds us of the importance of slowing down, being present, and truly experiencing life’s changes together.

 

“I think many of us, because of how we were raised, when we go back to why do we maybe rush? It was because we didn’t know. We didn’t know that there was power in being in those feelings of discomfort and reconciling them.”

 

Exploring Beginnings and Endings

  • Heather introduces the topic of beginnings and endings, emphasizing their prevalence in life and the emotional roller coaster they represent.
  • Kristina highlights the importance of parents being present during transitions to help children process emotions.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the tendency to rush through transitions and the importance of acknowledging endings.
  • They introduce the theme of acknowledging grief and gratitude for personal and child development.

 

Acknowledging Emotions and Teaching Coping Skills

  • Heather and Kristina stress the importance of teaching children to manage feelings associated with endings.
  • They discuss the concept of children not fully grasping time, leading to feelings of overwhelm.
  • They mention strategies like creating memory boxes and using calming language as ways to help children through transitions.

“So we, in our work at the preschool, will say to parents, ‘Children have no concept of time.’ Right? And so we’re in this place right now. We’re recording, and it’s mid April, and we have three year olds and four year olds at our school that are now four and five, and will be transitioning. Our four year olds will be going to kindergarten. And they’re going through this kindergarten registration. But children have no concept oftentimes, unless they have older siblings, of what kindergarten even means…They have their preschool framework, and they know what that means. But they go to kindergarten screening, and then they’ll come back and be like, ‘I’m all done today. I’m going to kindergarten tomorrow.’ And they’re packing up and leaving us for good, and they don’t understand that, actually, you’re gonna finish your year here with your teachers and your classmates, and then you’re gonna have a season called summer, and then in the fall, we’ll head back and you’ll go to a new school that is kindergarten.’”

 

Balancing Emotions and Preparing Children for New Experiences

  • Heather emphasizes the importance of letting children express their emotions without brushing them off.
  • Kristina mentions the need to balance expressing authentic emotions as parents without causing undue worry in children.
  • They discuss the importance of being present and allowing oneself to feel all emotions during transitions.

 

Personal Stories and the Impact of Transitions

  • Kristina shares her experience of becoming a mother and the mix of joy and grief it brought.
  • Heather talks about her son starting a summer job and the emotional impact it had on her.
  • They discuss the importance of allowing oneself to grieve the end of a phase, even when it is joyful.
  • They emphasize the concept of holding both joy and sorrow simultaneously is a sign of emotional health.

 

Children’s Understanding of Time and Emotional Processing

  • Heather explains that children have a different concept of time and may not understand the concept of beginning kindergarten, for example.
  • They discuss the importance of helping children understand and process transitions.
  • Strategies like using language that focuses on remembering rather than missing are suggested.
  • They introduce the idea of creating memory boxes to help children remember special times.

 

“Remembering keeps us in our executive state of our brain, that part where it’s our thinking part of our brain…where we hold our language and decision making… And it’s not that we don’t want to go there. We can be sad. But it’s helpful to kids to use the language of remembering versus missing, just because you can have the same experience, but you’re in an executive state versus an emotional state.”

 

 

The Role of Memory Boxes and Previewing New Experiences

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the benefits of memory boxes for both children and parents.
  • They talk about the importance of previewing new experiences to help children feel safe and secure.
  • They discuss the concept of building safety and security through preparation.
  • Previewing experiences like when flying on an airplane for the first time or taking swimming lessons is one way parents can reduce anxiety when it comes to beginning something new.

 

Navigating Grief and Building Resilience

  • Kristina shares her experience of allowing her daughter to grieve the end of a visit and the importance of giving her hope for future visits.
  • Heather talks about the importance of allowing children to experience and process their grief.
  • They discuss the impact of new siblings on older children and the grief they may feel.
  • They reiterate the importance of being present and acknowledging children’s emotions, and not minimizing them.

 

Strategies for Supporting Children Through Transitions

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of being present and slowing down during transitions.
  • They emphasize the need to acknowledge both grief and joy simultaneously.
  • They introduce the concept of modeling emotional health for children.
  • They talk about the importance of allowing children to see their parents experience and handle emotions authentically.
  •  

“…If you’re able to support them and join them in that grief of acknowledging that ‘Yes, you’re right,’ it brings you back together…To be able to say, ‘I’ll never forget…I’ll always remember about that…and joining them in it says ‘We’re together. I’m with you. You are important.’”

 

The Importance of Being Known and Understood

  • Heather shares the importance of being known and understood by her children.
  • They discuss the balance between being vulnerable and maintaining boundaries.
  • They emphasize the importance of modeling emotional wellness and support within the family.
  • They focus on the value in allowing children to see their parents experience and handle emotions.

 

“When we allow our children to see us experiencing emotion, and when we really hold them and are with them, connected as they’re experiencing emotion, it communicates to them ‘I can handle it as your parent. It’s not too big. It’s not too hard. It’s not too scary. We may both weep over it. We may both be frustrated over it, but I can handle it. You don’t ever have to keep that from me.’”

 

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Notes: 

 

In this episode, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book series from Diane Alber.

 

In a prior episode, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 13: Beginning and Ending Well

 

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re exploring the world of beginnings and endings, because life is full of them. Oh, and it can feel like a roller coaster ride with all those ups and downs.

 

Kristina  00:09

We really want to highlight how important it is for parents to be present during these times of transition. 

 

Heather  00:15

It can be tempting to rush through them. But when we slow down, we’re afforded the time to adequately acknowledge that something is ending, instead of racing off to the next beginning. 

 

Kristina  00:25

And that brings us to a big theme today: acknowledging grief and gratitude. It’s a skill that’s crucial for our own growth and for helping our kids.

 

Heather  00:35

Learning how to begin and end well involves acknowledging the feelings that come with endings. We can be compelled as parents to gloss over them, to get to the excitement of what lies ahead.

 

Kristina  00:46

Exactly. And in doing that, we shortchange ourselves and our kids by skipping important emotional processing.

 

Heather  00:53

We definitely want to teach our children how to manage those feelings associated with endings. It’s a critical component of their emotional development. 

 

Kristina  01:02

We’ll share some stories from our own experiences, like how it felt when our kids started school, or our family routines changed as our kids got older. Those moments can be bittersweet. 

 

Heather  01:13

We’ll also talk about how kids can feel so overwhelmed by changes, especially since they don’t quite grasp the concept of time yet.

 

Kristina  01:22

We’ll share some strategies we love, like creating memory boxes and using language that helps kids remain calm and grounded. 

 

Heather  01:30

It’s so vital that we let children express their emotions without brushing them off. Feeling and expressing grief is just as important as celebrating joy.

 

Kristina  01:40

We’ll wrap up by sharing some tips for preparing kids for new experiences and helping them feel safe and secure during transitions.

 

Heather  01:49

We’ll talk about how to balance expressing our emotions authentically as parents while not raising concern or worry within our children

 

Kristina  01:57

Exactly. It’s not always easy, but being present and allowing ourselves to feel all the feels makes such a difference. 

 

Heather  02:05

It sure does. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  02:13

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  02:26

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  02:48

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather

02:54

Are you ready?

 

Kristina and Heather    02:55

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  03:01

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  03:14

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

 

Heather  03:21

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  03:31

Welcome back. We’re so glad to have you join us again. Today we are going to talk about beginnings and endings.  It’s that’s what life is full of, right? Beginnings and endings. And what we want to talk about today is, how do you begin and end well?

 

Heather  03:53

It’s tricky.

 

Kristina  03:54

It is tricky, and it’s not something that we always think much about. So learning how to begin and end well is a really valuable skill to build and to grow in ourselves and in our children, because it is what life is made of. Every beginning is also an ending, and we don’t have a lot of comfort in experiencing or observing the feelings that come along with endings. 

 

Heather  04:28

Some of us try to outrun our feelings, and rush to the next thing.

 

Kristina  04:33

Absolutely. So we short-change the process of dealing with all of those feelings and experiencing all those feelings with endings, and we rush to the next beginning.

 

Heather  04:45

And sometimes, in doing so, we take our kids along with us on that rushing. And we actually don’t just short-change ourselves, we also short change them. And then are teaching some coping skills in the midst of it, and maybe not the coping skills we would want to be teaching.

 

Kristina  05:05

Exactly. So helping our children and ourselves learn to manage those feelings that come along with endings before leaping to the thing that we’re beginning. I remember hearing from a professor at some point along the way, learning from him that all change is experienced as loss and is accompanied by grief. Whether it’s a positive change in your life or a negative change, it is experienced as loss and comes with that grief, because a beginning is also an ending to something else. I wished and prayed and hoped to become a mother my whole life, and that was trickier for us for a lot of reasons than I ever could have imagined it would be. Took us a long time. And so I was overjoyed to be able to have a child.

 

Heather  06:16

And I was an ending of-

 

Kristina  06:18

I anticipated that all I would have was joy, right? 

 

Heather  06:22

But it was an ending of a really long stretch of independence. 

 

Kristina 06:26

Yeah, you never get back right? Like forty years of independence. 

 

Kristina  06:33

Well, and about forty years before you get it back right? So it was the realizing I will never have two hands free again. I mean, not until the child is older, right? Or being able to really have it be all about spontaneity.

 

Heather  06:43

You don’t just pack up and go away for the weekend. All of it, right? A newborn, a toddler.

 

Kristina  06:51

I don’t. I know some people do, but I don’t. And so even in that moment, which was the moment filled with the most joy and gratitude in my entire life. 

 

Heather  07:08

There was also some grief and letting go of a whole different phase. 

 

Kristina  07:11

So we want to talk about: how do you begin and end well?

 

Heather  07:16

And why do we tend to rush past some of those things? And I think we have some pretty solid thoughts on why that happens. We’ll talk about that and how to shift our thinking on beginnings and endings, and realizing that with new beginnings that are very well joyful and exciting, it’s oftentimes an ending. This resonates with me right now. Luke is our seventeen year old who just accepted a summer job. And we’re in West Michigan along the beautiful Lake Michigan shoreline. And our boat is north of where we live, about an hour and a half. And so we spend a lot of time north in the summer. And I have talked in previous episodes about when my oldest son began working, when he was in high school, and then would stay home. And I affectionately call that the “summer of tears.” Yeah, and I’m heading into “summer of tears 2.0” because now I’ve got a second son who will more be at home and separated, which is just a…it’s different, and it’s the beginning of something wonderful. And while I’m so proud that he wants to earn money and that he wants to be responsible and that – he has a wonderful work ethic – the mother in me grieves that this season in our lives is coming to an end with yet another child.

 

Kristina  08:42

And it’s so important to allow yourself that grief. Oh yeah, “summer of tears,” as opposed to leaping forward to what precious time I’m going to have with Ava. Because it’s both. And being emotionally healthy is being able to hold both the joy and the sorrow.

 

Heather  09:04

And sometimes we can’t even put words to it. It took me a bit. It took me a while to even, within myself, be able to give voice to that. It’s tricky. And maybe that goes back to how we were raised. Quite likely it does, right? I think for both of us, it does. Even as we’re trained and all of those things.

 

Kristina  09:26

It’s not being comfortable with even people being sad. You know, we’ll say, “Don’t be sad. Don’t cry. And, you know, let’s go get ice cream.” My daughter feels endings very deeply. And you know, she loved her kindergarten teacher and just would sob and sob about kindergarten coming to an end. And it was much easier to say, “Oh, but you’ll still see her every day because your classroom is right next door” and “Yes, you know it’s going to be great, because now you can have all the great things about…” rather than joining her in the moment in the grief and being able to say “Yes, you loved her. She loved you. She taught you so many things,” and being able to allow that.

 

Heather  10:15

It’s very healthy to be able to just empathize with those kids and be able to say, “Yeah,” that you’re feeling this ending. “You’ve really had a wonderful year with your teacher.” It goes back to brain states and that with young children, I think with anyone, I don’t think it’s young child specific. I think many of us, because of how we were raised, when we go back to why do we maybe rush? It was because we didn’t know. We didn’t know that there was power in being in those feelings of discomfort and reconciling them. Maybe that’s why it took me so long to finally give voice to what is bothering me, what is different, and that’s what it was. It was the grief of having a son back at home when it had historically been our place where our family went and just had wonderful memories made. So we, in our work at the preschool, will say to parents, “Children have no concept of time.” Right? And so we’re in this place right now. We’re recording, and it’s mid April, and we have three year olds and four year olds at our school that are now four and five, and will be transitioning. Our four year olds will be going to kindergarten. And they’re going through this kindergarten registration. But children have no concept oftentimes, unless they have older siblings, of what kindergarten even means. Our adult brain holds that and knows exactly what it means. But if you’re a first born who maybe doesn’t have older siblings or cousins or what have you, they have no idea. They have their preschool framework, and they know what that means. But they go to kindergarten screening, and then they’ll come back and be like, “I’m all done today. I’m going to kindergarten tomorrow. “ And they’re packing up and leaving us for good, and they don’t understand that actually, you’re gonna finish your year here with your teachers and your classmates, and then you’re gonna have a season called summer, and then in the fall, we’ll head back and you’ll go to a new school that is kindergarten. So we write to our families that this is a very common process with children, because they don’t hold time and space and they just know what they know. And if they have a limited picture, that’s what they’re operating from. 

 

Kristina  12:33

And we offer them some suggestions for how to end well.

 

Heather  12:38

And the ending, well, because preschool, at least where we do it, is just such a beautiful time in childhood. And we fiercely protect the childhood nature of it developmentally, and it’s play based, and for a child to be outside, and they get to hold frogs and chase butterflies, jump in puddles, all of it. They get to play and experience great growth in all sorts of areas because they’re just playing, many of them for the first time, with peers and navigating taking turns and sharing and all of those things. But to be able to say “We will remember. We will remember all the times we jumped in the puddles. Do you remember that time we went on that hike and we saw the bunny?” Yeah. “Do you remember the time when we were walking along the trail, and all the turtles were out on the logs, and we got to sneak up so they we didn’t scare them, and we could watch them. And then some of them did jump in, and then we could see their little heads in the pond as they swam?” Remembering keeps us in our executive state of our brain, that part where it’s our thinking part of our brain.

 

Kristina  14:01

Yes, where we hold our language and decision making, all keeps us there.

 

Heather  14:09

And we say it keeps our peaceful and calm spot nice and big. We want a nice, big, peaceful and calm spot. If we go to our emotion center, where we say things like, “I will miss,” or “we will miss,” that puts us right in the emotion state, which grows more our worry spot. It shrinks our peaceful spot, because we’re back in that emotional state. It grows our sadness spot, and sadness and deep sadness. And it’s not that we don’t want to go there. We can be sad. But it’s helpful to kids to use the language of remembering versus missing, just because you can have the same experience, but you’re in an executive state versus an emotional state. Does that make sense? 

 

Kristina  15:00

Absolutely. And you know, my daughter will go to the “but I’ll never be able to,” “it’ll never be like this again. It’ll never, never…” and that’s true. And it won’t leapfrog over that. To say, “You’re right. It will never be just like that. Yeah, how wonderful that you were able to experience that, and it was so precious, 

 

Heather  15:24

and that you will remember it forever, and let’s write a little something about it, or let’s, you know, put that in your memory box, or whatever it might be. This is my oldest who every birthday, every birthday this child had, he would celebrate, but he would also grieve. 

 

Kristina  15:42

Well, Grace is very much the same way.

 

Heather  15:46

It’s like they’re an old soul. And so he would have this great joy of, I’m eight, or I’m ten, or I’m fourteen. Sixteen was a big one. I’m not sure he had as much grief there, because that kid just needed to be able to drive, which is a lot of fifteen to sixteen year old transitions, but he would grieve being that one more year farther from childhood, because he had a great one. And he was such an outdoors kid. And there was something… he’s a great young adult. It’s not that he didn’t want to become a young adult. But he, more than any child I’ve known or had in my home, grieved that growing up a bit.

 

Kristina  16:31

Yes, Grace does the same thing. And she’ll say “It’s going too fast.” I mean, I say it’s going too fast as her parent, but she feels like it’s going too fast. And my daughter grieves things very deeply. I said that earlier, even things like the car that we had when she was born. When we sold that car, she didn’t want us to sell it. She wept and wept and wept because it would never be the same again. She’d say, “Oh, the music we listened to and the fun we had in the white car.” And in my head, I’m like, “Oh my gosh, this is ridiculous. We play the same music everywhere.” It’s like the CD will move with us to the new car, right?

 

Heather  17:14

But that’s the mind of a child, right? They don’t know.

 

Kristina  17:17

No. And so to say, she just heard that.

 

Heather  17:21

She was just so happy in the back seat listening to her music in that car.

 

Kristina  17:27

And how could it ever be the same? Yep. In another it won’t be the same. It will be different. But in those examples, I mean, the same thing: When we got new furniture, she was like, “Can we keep the green couch? Because otherwise I’ll never be able to sit on the green couch again.” It’s like, “No, we’re moving on.” But it’s so easy as a parent to hear that childhood grief and to say, “Oh for Cripes sake.”

 

Heather  17:55

Yes. And it’s important that too, for our kids, that is a big part of who they are, even yet today. They are those little old souls, and they have been since they were born. So they’re just-that’s who they are. It’s a big piece of who they are, and to dismiss that would be to deny them access. And it separates a piece of them. And it separates you. Yeah, right, when you allow well-it communicates “I don’t understand that,” and therefore I don’t understand you. 

 

Kristina  18:25

Yes, yes, where, if you’re able to support them and join them in that grief of acknowledging that “Yes, you’re right,” brings you back together. Wonderful times snuggling on that couch. That’s the couch you broke your arm on that all of the things that are memories associated with that. To be able to say, “I’ll never forget…I’ll always remember about that…and joining them in it says “we’re together. I’m with you. You are important.”

 

Heather  18:57

And they don’t stay there, right a long time. They’re gonna move through. It’s just the point that in our society, we wanna rush so many things to get to the next thing. It’s kind of like we’re here. But are we fully present? Are we enjoying or are we just always going towards the next thing takes real intentionality, at least it did for me, to be in there, to be in the moment, to enjoy this moment and not rush to the next.

 

Kristina  19:26

Yeah, yeah. It’s a really important skill for us to kind of hone within ourselves and then to support our children in growing this skill of being able to acknowledge the grief, acknowledge that that was something really special, and in that acknowledgement, there’s also gratitude,

 

Heather  19:45

I remember for Grace. She’s an only and we work with lots of families that have onlys. I have a family member who’s very near and dear to me, who she’s a single mom. And only at this point, and only have their own grief and childhood. I just remember Grace coming over and wanting to be kind of in the chaos, and then having real sadness with leaving. Do you remember that? Like, “I want to be here. I want to be with friends. I want to be with. I don’t want to go home.” Can be so tempting to be like if you behave that way, we’re not coming here again, right? And you would always do such a beautiful job of saying, “I know, honey, it’s so fun to be here. It is so great to be surrounded by friends. We’ll come back again.” And she needed the hope of we’re gonna come back again. But so beautiful that it was never “You get in the car, it’s time to go. I told you it was time to go, and we’re not coming back if you can’t handle this,” right? Because that was her life, right? As an only she’s going back to Mom and Dad, where not that you’re not great people-

 

Kristina  21:03

Oh, I hear you, sister, it’s not the same. Yes, absolutely. 

 

Heather  21:08

And I just remember many of those. And it was like we had to allow time for the grief when she would depart from us. And there were times we traveled together, yes, oh, and I remember you saying, “This is so great, but I’m gonna have forty-eight hours of hard. Because she’s gonna be so sad.”

 

Kristina  21:30

Absolutely. And being with her in the midst of that sadness taught her that she can handle it. She can survive. She can survive being that sad. 

 

Heather  21:43

Build that resilience Absolutely. And it’s just part of her story, right? She’s still an only, and so it’s just part of who she is and part of what she had to reconcile. And you didn’t short change her in it, and you didn’t make her get better at not feeling the grief right?

 

Kristina  22:04

Or try to do what we tend to do as parents, like, “Oh, I know, I know, but let’s stop for ice cream on the way home. We’ll go to that special spot and try to again, leapfrog over the sadness and the grief to what is next.” Grace is an only. Children who are in families where there is a sibling or multiple siblings have their own grief upon the arrival. 

 

Heather  22:29

Because while it’s great excitement and I’m gaining a sibling, I’m losing my parents undivided attention, right? Yep. And so that adjustment is huge. And then when you have this new baby, even grandparents and friends and family all want to come and see this new baby, and that’s the center of attention. 

 

Kristina  22:53

Yeah,they’ve been unseated from the throne. 

 

Heather  22:56

I remember just handing the baby over and being close with my other kids like “Oh, I’m gonna be with you guys. I’m gonna hang with you guys.” And, you know, just hand the baby off, whoever that was, if it was Luke or Ava. Yeah, that’s a very good point.

 

Kristina  23:13

So we think about things like creating a memory box where our children, or even us, we can keep precious things that help us remember about some of those important times in our life.

 

Heather  23:29

Memory boxes are a beautiful thing. For Zack, who was my birthday celebrator, but yeah, griever, we could go and look at his photo album. Another beautiful thing that I love about the memory boxes is there are going to be times as you raise your children that there are some divides and there’s some tension. And pulling those out and sitting and being in that? Oh, what a tool to diffuse and bring it back to “We are together. We are together.” And being in that space. It’s not short changing the grief, but it’s bringing it back to “We’re together. Look at all this that we’ve done.” So I love memory boxes for that reason, because in moments like that, they can really bring peace and calm and reassurance. And they can provide that at integral points, I think, along the growth and development journey for kids. And they pull them out on their own, eventually, when they get older, which is really neat, too. I think all of my kids hit a point where all of a sudden it was, like their favorite they had a blankie, like those came out, they had gone away from them, and then all of a sudden, at a certain age, they came back out for security, because kids go through these phases where it kind of rocks their identity or their security, and out can come the blanket out of the Memory Box.

 

Kristina  24:54

You did something really well. Well, you did a lot of things really well. But one of the things I really appreciated that you did with your kids is you would preview new beginnings. And that’s a really effective strategy for some, especially like I have a child that is quite anxious. And that previewing or doing a dry run was really helpful. Because, like you had said earlier, in our adult minds, we have an idea of what all these things look like, and children may have no concept whatsoever. Flying.

 

Heather  25:25

I know. Like we drove to the airport. We flew when our son was probably about two and a half, but he was verbal and he was mobile, and we could drive to the airport on a Sunday and just watch planes come and go and show them what it looked like. And, you know, bring them inside, and we’re gonna, you know, put our bags here, and those people help us. And then beyond that, we go to Security, and they’re just gonna make sure everything is all good. And then just watching those planes come and go and telling them what that was gonna feel like, and being prepared for it. And that communicated to him, “We’ve got you. It’s new and it’s different. It’s exciting. Can be a little tricky, maybe, but we’re gonna be fine.”

 

Kristina  26:08

Yeah, Grace really enjoys taking art classes at a particular little art studio here in town, and it’s great. I like, “Oh, I’m so excited to get to sign up for this art class.” But if you’ve never been there, you don’t know what it looks like. You don’t know. You don’t know anything, right? About what that could possibly be. 

 

Heather  26:31

So to do that preview, to do that dry run, swimming lessons is another one. We’re gonna go to that house. This lady…websites are great for that. Like it was a preschool teacher that was the swim instructor. This is what she looks like. Do you stay? Yes, I stay the whole time. I will be there. I will watch you. I’ll be sitting over here. You’ll be in the pool there. All of those things. When we would travel, I would at least say, “There’s going to be a lot of people there. A lot of legs.” I used to say that, like, “There’s gonna be a lot of legs. So you need to hold my hand, because you’re short, and if you get separated, it’s just all legs everywhere. So hold my hand. Stay close. Then I know I’ve got you, or you can be in a stroller, whatever.” But just giving them the lay of the land, that’s-

 

Kristina  27:15

Exactly. It’s giving them something to create an idea, or a picture of what it’s going to be like, and

 

Heather  27:22

And that builds safety and security within them. Yep.

 

Kristina  27:27

So life is a series of beginnings and endings. We want to pay attention to not rushing through the endings, not leaping to the next thing before we’ve really been able to end well, something that is coming to an end and gaining comfort in being able to hold both grief and joyful anticipation at the same time because and

 

Heather  27:56

And give voice to it like even, yes, you know, it was probably four years ago when I was experiencing this with Zack and saying to Ava, she like’s, “Mom, why are you sad?” I’m just, “We’re not together. It’s okay. It’s new. It’s different. I’m really, aren’t you glad Zack has? I am I’m so glad Zach has a job. It’s just different. I’ll get used to it.”

 

Kristina  28:18

Yeah, because I’ll hear parents say sometimes, “I don’t cry in front of my children,” and I’m not passing judgment on that. I think it’s something to unpack. But from my perspective, it’s helpful for children to see their parents experience emotions and survive them. Because otherwise, I remember one time seeing my mom really sad about something, and it scared me because I hadn’t seen it before, and it felt like a really, really big thing. 

 

Heather  28:55

And sadness is just a part of life. And it’s a piece of, for me and my family, being known and being known by your kids. Like they will joke – I mean, the walking on the dock, right? Another episode, they’re like, “Oh my goodness, this is our mother and whatever.” It’s also like commercials can bring me to tears when they’re very moving. And I love animals. I mean, we have four dogs, a cat, a horse, right? So a piece of that being known that I love. And I love to really know my children deeply. And I love for them to know me deeply. Does that mean that there aren’t some things that are just adult things that stay in my adult bowl, for sure? Oh, no, my adult stuff stays in my adult stuff, but I can be vulnerable, and I can model that vulnerability with my children and my husband and have them see that interaction I’ve said before. We, my husband, I both come from divorced families. It’s important for us to demonstrate, for our children, what that good emotional health looks like, and the support we give one another. And I think that for me, it goes back to having my kids know that they can be known, and then they can also know with boundaries we always talk about, you know. It’s not the whole thing you give away, it’s they have good, strict boundaries around that too-

 

Kristina  30:21

When we allow our children to see us experiencing emotion, and when we really hold them and are with them, connected as they’re experiencing emotion, it communicates to them “I can handle it as your parent. It’s not too big. It’s not too hard. It’s not too scary. We may both weep over it. We may both be frustrated over it, but I can handle it. You don’t ever have to keep that from me.” It goes back to when we hear children say things like, “You know, my parents would kill me,” or even things when we have children who’ve experienced the loss of a parent or the loss of a sibling, say, “I can’t talk about it because it just makes my mom cry, or “it just makes my dad cry,” and that they’re not comfortable doing that, and so they keep that inside, inside from their caregiver or their parent.Yeah, because they don’t want to be responsible for bringing on that emotion. And so when we’re with our children in the midst of the grief, not belaboring it, but joining with them as they’re experiencing that grief, it really does communicate “I can handle it. I’m here for you. You don’t have to hide that from me.”

 

Heather  31:40

Absolutely. It’s powerful. So life will always have beginnings and endings. There will always be grief and loss. There will always be great joy. I mean, it’s what was the name of the movie? Oh, “Inside Out?” Where I think in there, it says you cannot fully experience joy without also experiencing sadness, because if you just always avoid the sadness, you’re really limiting your joy. You’re short changing yourself. Yes. And we may unintentionally do that with our children. So we need to experience the whole gamut, not that we get stuck there in any one place. We’re gonna help support and move them through, because that’s what we do as parents. That’s the guiding, the modeling, the leading, the building of really powerful things and families.

 

Kristina  32:36

So as you experience those beginnings and endings, be present and slow down. Yeah, there’s no rush, right? 

 

Heather  32:43

There’s no rush. Feel all the feels.

 

Kristina  32:47

So grateful that we had the chance to talk about this today and to share kind of how we like to view beginnings and endings and how to support yourself and your children in doing so. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina-

 

Heather  33:08

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina  33:12

See you on the trails! 

 

Kristina

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  33:30

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  33:38

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  33:50

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 12: Discipline Series, Part 3 of 3

 

In this discussion, clinical social workers Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of using an assertive voice in parenting. They explain that being clear and direct—without adding questions or polite phrases like “please” and “thank you”—helps avoid confusion for children. They introduce a simple three-step process to handle resistance: empathy, expectation, and choice. Visual aids and clear, step-by-step instructions are also recommended to help children better understand tasks. Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of staying calm and consistent in our communication to help children feel secure and build resilience. They also acknowledge that transitioning from a passive or aggressive communication style to an assertive one can be challenging; and they stress the importance of self-care and seeking support when needed.

 

Using an Assertive Voice in Parenting

  • Heather and Kristina introduce the topic of using an assertive voice in parenting, emphasizing clarity and directness.
  • Kristina explains the importance of giving directives without asking questions to avoid confusion.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the difference between an assertive voice and yelling or commanding.
  • They introduce a three-step process of: empathy, expectation, and choice as a strategy for smoother transitions.

 

“But if the directive is ‘take your plate to the counter,’ you need to say that, not ‘please take your plate to the counter,’ because even using the word ‘please’ implies a question…and that’s confusing for kids.

 

“And we’re not saying that manners aren’t important, or that they’re less important than they used to be…We just learned that there’s a better setting to do it in than when we’re giving a directive. For example, the dinner table, ‘Would you please pass the salt? Would you please pass me a napkin?’ That’s a great place…But if the directive is ‘take your plate to the counter,’ you need to say that, not ‘please take your plate to the counter’ because even using the word please implies a question.”

 

 



Challenges of Using an Assertive Voice

  • Heather and Kristina share personal experiences of struggling with using an assertive voice due to their upbringing.
  • Kristina highlights the confusion children face when directives are phrased as questions.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the difficulty of breaking the habit of using polite phrases like “please” and “thank you” when giving directives.
  • They emphasize the importance of consistency and clear communication in building resilience in children.

 

“There’s another really common one, that is adding ‘okay’ to the end of a sentence, ‘Let’s head upstairs, okay?’ Well, that’s a question. And if it’s a question, ‘no’ has to be an option. Otherwise it’s a trick question.”

 

 

Strategies for Effective Communication

  • Heather and Kristina provide examples of how to give clear directives without using questions or polite phrases.
  • They introduce the concept of painting the picture for children to help them understand the steps involved in a task.
  • Kristina explains the use of visual aids and step-by-step instructions to support children’s independence.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss how crucial it is to maintain a calm and assertive voice to avoid overwhelming children.

 

“Children do well when they can. So if a child is not doing what you’re hoping they would do, it is because the expectation that we hold exceeds their skill level. So, what we need to do is, instead of getting angry that they don’t have the skill, we need to think, “Ah, how can I help them grow this skill?” 

 

Handling Resistance and Maintaining Calm

  • Kristina introduces the three-step process of empathy, expectation, and choice to handle resistance from children.
  • Heather and Kristina provide examples of how to apply this process in various situations, such as transitioning from play to bath time.
  • They discuss the importance of maintaining a calm and assertive voice even when children resist.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the role of support from others, such as partners or friends, in managing challenging parenting moments.

 

 

Building Resilience and Connection

  • Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of building resilience in children through consistent and calm communication.
  • They highlight the role of an assertive voice in nurturing understanding, connection, and a sense of belonging.
  • Heather and Kristina share personal stories about the challenges and rewards of using an assertive voice in parenting.
  • They focus on the importance of self-care and seeking support from others to maintain calm and effective parenting.

 

Practical Tips for Using an Assertive Voice

  • Heather and Kristina provide practical tips for using an assertive voice, such as avoiding questions and polite phrases.
  • They introduce the concept of narrating tasks for children to help them understand expectations.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of using a clear and direct voice, similar to stating facts.
  • They mention again the role of visual aids and step-by-step instructions in supporting children’s independence.

 

Addressing Common Parenting Challenges

  • Heather and Kristina address common challenges parents face, such as children resisting tasks and having meltdowns.
  • They talk about how difficult yet important it is to maintain a calm and assertive voice, even when feeling frustrated or overwhelmed.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the role of humor and empathy in handling challenging parenting moments.
  • They highlight the importance of staying connected to children and maintaining a sense of security and belonging.

 

So those three little steps: empathy, expectation, choice, over and over and over again take you out of negotiating. You’re not negotiating here. Take us out of threats or bribes or other things that we do just to try to move the child from point A to point B because we’re tired, because we don’t know what else to do. It removes all of that, and it keeps you connected with your child. I stay connected to my kiddo when I can respond with empathy to what they are feeling, even if it’s ridiculous in my mind, they are feeling it. So joining with them, continuing that attachment is really important. And really what we’re doing is building the resilience as well. And they need to know that, as strong as they are, we’re strong too. And we demonstrate that through our calm, which is not easy. I say that and it rolls off the tongue like it’s so easy. It is not easy. It is not easy at all. But it helped me to always think, “What do I want to teach?”

 

Building Independence and Skills

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of helping children build independence through clear and direct communication.
  • They remind us of the role of visual aids and step-by-step instructions in supporting children’s skill development.
  • Heather and Kristina provide examples of how to use visual aids to help children understand daily tasks, such as brushing teeth.
  • They discuss the importance of breaking tasks into manageable steps and providing clear instructions.

 

Maintaining Calm and Effective Communication

  • Heather and Kristina talk about the role of self-care and seeking support from others in managing challenging parenting moments.
  • Heather and Kristina review practical tips for using an assertive voice, such as avoiding questions and polite phrases.
  • They review the importance of staying connected to children and maintaining a sense of security and belonging always.

 

And then look at your sweet child hopefully as you’re putting them to bed to say, “I love you so much. We belong to each other. That was tough and tricky. I didn’t love it. It didn’t feel good to me. How did it feel to you? Yeah, didn’t feel good to me either. No, tomorrow’s a brand new day.”

 

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Note: 

In a prior episode, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 12: Discipline Series, Part 3 of 3

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re wrapping up our three-part series on Discipline. We’ll begin by diving into a topic that many of us find challenging, using an assertive voice in parenting. It’s

 

Kristina  00:10

about giving directives and not asking questions. We’ll talk about why being clear and direct is key, especially when our little ones are throwing epic tantrums or just plain ignoring us.

 

Heather  00:22

And when we say “assertive,” we don’t mean yelling or commanding. We’re talking about communicating in a way that is calm, confident and clear. 

 

Kristina  00:31

We’ll go into some tips for making transitions smoother, especially when moving from the thrill of play time to that dreaded bath time. We’ll also talk about the three-step process of empathy, expectation and choice.

 

Heather  00:45

We want to acknowledge feelings clearly, state what’s next and give our kiddos a little choice within the boundaries we set for them. Our kids are masters at testing our patience, aren’t they?

 

Kristina  00:57

Oh, they sure are. But we’ll discuss why it’s essential to focus on teaching. If things get tricky, take a deep breath and keep that assertive voice steady.

 

Heather  01:07

We’ll share about how we can all feel overwhelmed and, in those moments, it’s okay to ask for backup, whether it’s from a co-parent, partner, a friend, a family member, that support is vital.

 

Kristina  01:19

We’ll also talk about how visual aids and step by step instructions can be your secret weapons. Kids love a good chart or picture. It makes expectations crystal clear and supports their growing independence. 

 

Heather  01:33

And  let’s not forget, building resilience in our little ones is super important. Consistent and calm communication helps them feel safe, secure and loved. 

 

Kristina  01:44

An assertive voice isn’t just about giving directives, it’s about nurturing, understanding, connection and a sense of belonging.

 

Heather  01:57

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  02:00

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  02:13

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  02:35

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather  02:41

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  02:42

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  02:48

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  03:01

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives. 

 

Heather  03:08

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. Kristina? Let’s talk about assertive voice. This is something that –  I worked at the preschool before you did. You came on board. You’re exceptionally polite, which is so wonderful.

 

Kristina  03:35

My mama raised me right.

 

Heather  03:38

But let’s talk about our conversation about assertive voice and what you thought was a pinch point, a real pinch point, especially with children. 

 

Kristina  03:52

Yeah, so using an assertive voice is both clear and kind. Children are not great at decoding the messages that we send. So using a very clear kind assertive voice gives them clear direction.

 

Heather  04:11

And making it clear that it’s a direction, because what we do oftentimes as parents when we’re giving a direction is we actually ask a question: “Are you ready to take your bath?” Rather than “It’s bath time. Finish up what you’re doing, put that away, and head to the bathroom.” Yes, that’s very clear. 

 

Kristina  04:33

That’s an assertive voice saying. “Are you ready for bath time?” is a question which I could legitimately say, “No, I’m not ready for bath time” or “No, I’m playing.” When you ask it as a question, there is a choice. So learning how to give directives with that assertive voice was a challenge for me. I was. Raised to say, “please” and “thank you” for everything. I was raised that instead of speaking clearly and directly with an assertive voice, it was kinder to phrase things as a question, ‘Would you please empty the dishwasher?” “No.” Oh, well, the answer is not “no.” The answer is “yes.” “Yes, I would love to.” It was never really a question. It wasn’t because “no” was never really an option.

 

Heather  05:27

Which is really confusing to children, right? And it’s a really challenging habit to break as parents.

 

Kristina  05:34

This was challenging for me because of how I had been raised, because of the way I had spent fifty plus years communicating with other people. It was a hard habit to break. And I remember when I first learned about using an assertive voice, which an assertive voice does not use words like “please” and “thank you” connected to a directive. If you are indeed asking a question, “Would you please bring your plate to the counter?” And there is the option for the child to say “No,” then you may use “please” and “thank you.” But if the directive is “take your plate to the counter,” you need to say that, not “please take your plate to the counter,” because even using the word “please” implies a question.

 

Heather  06:24

And we’re not saying that manners aren’t important, or that they’re less important than they used to be. We and our family worked very hard to teach our children manners. We just learned that there’s a better setting to do it in than when we’re giving a directive. For example, the dinner table, would you please pass the salt? Would you please pass me a napkin? That’s a great place. There are lots of places in our daily: “Thank you for holding that door. That was so helpful.”

 

Kristina  06:56

“Would you please grab my cup of coffee? It’s over there. Thank you so much.”

 

Heather  07:01

And you had felt like we weren’t teaching manners.

 

Kristina  07:05

It was really hard for me at first, because it’s like omnipresent with children. Many times adults ask them to say “please” and “thank you” for everything, and we don’t do that as adults, so we don’t model it well. And when we give a directive, but we ask it in a question, that is confusing to the child, because they’re wondering, “Is this? Wait a minute. I think this is a trick question. I don’t actually get to say ‘no.’ I think this is the one I have to say ‘yes’ to.” That’s just simply confusing.

 

Heather  08:27

It is very hard to break. There’s another really common one that is adding “okay” to the end of a sentence, “Let’s head upstairs, okay?”

 

Kristina  08:35

Well, that’s a question. And if it’s a question, “no” has to be an option. Otherwise it’s a trick question.

 

Heather  08:46

“Bring your plate to the counter, sweetheart. Okay?” “No, Mom, I’m gonna head outside.”

 

Kristina  08:52

“Oh no, you need to take your plate to the counter.” It’s like, well, I thought I had an option here. You asked me if I was okay with that. You’re not asking a question, you’re giving a directive. 

 

Heather  09:02

And those are habits that we all do, that we all carry with us. I would catch myself being like, “Oh, there it is again. There it is again.”

 

Kristina  09:11

Yes, yes. You become more attuned to hearing it coming out of your own mouth. And so as I was learning to use an assertive voice in giving directives, many times when I noticed I said something with a “could you?” “Would you please?” “Thank you?” “Okay?” I needed to say, “Oh. What I meant to say was, ‘put your shoes by the door.’” 

 

Heather  09:34

So there are two ends to this: There’s that end where we want to be exceedingly polite. We ask questions or say “okay,” rather than just give a very clear directive. So that would be a passive voice. I guess we could talk about that, the questions rather than the directives and adding “okay” or saying, I “I need you to” right? We learned recently and trained our teachers that children are so much more likely to respond as helpers because many of them like to be helpers, especially with 3,4,5, year olds, particularly to parents or teachers or primary caregivers. Really, if you say, “Who would like to help?” and invite that, “It would be so helpful if you would…” rather than “I need you to,” right?…

 

Kristina  10:40

Because once you say, I need you to, you’ve just handed them all of the power, and they own you

 

Heather  10:48

Yes, because they can take it and immediately say, “No, I don’t want to.” And they’ve got the power and control. But if we say “It’s so helpful. Would you…”

 

Kristina  11:01

Would you be my helper?

 

Heather  11:02

Would you be my helper? That they rise up to that because it’s a role, and that was the learning that they could rise into this role and be this helper, and that children, particularly in the three, four and five age range, really identify with them. So we want to avoid the passive voice of giving directives by asking questions or adding “okay” or saying “I need.” The other end of it is when our directives become too firm, and that’s the aggressive voice. And this is an important thing, and this is something that I’ve talked about before, that I can get passionate about things and feel strongly about things, and my kids will say, “You’re yelling.” And I will say “I’m not yelling. Do you want to hear me yell?” Because I’m not being particularly loud, but there’s this intensity in my voice. And so my oldest son, he’d be like, “Mom, you’re speaking with passion again.” And so we joke about that, like, “Yep, mom’s real passionate about that.” They just kind of laugh at that now. 

 

Kristina  12:13

But I remember learning this about myself in grad school when a fellow student gave me feedback saying “you are so intimidating.” And I thought, I’m like, the least intimidating person in the world. But what I learned was that speaking assertively with passion is heard as aggressive, by many people. It’s received that way. It is absolutely received as aggression. And that is intimidating, and wow, that was a big learning for me, because I am passionate about a lot of things.

 

Heather  12:56

That’s who we are as people. We’re advocates, fierce advocates, in some ways, and so we need that passionate voice, right? But apparently, we’re using it in other settings.

 

Kristina  13:06

And we need to be able to use that voice in a way that can be heard, right? So when we talk about the assertive voice, we’re talking about moving away from the passive voice and moving into kind clear directives, but what you’re saying is you don’t want to go too far. 

 

Heather  13:24

You don’t want to go too far, and you want to speak when you’re giving a directive, just like you would say, “the grass is green,” “the sky is blue”, “our house is white,” just if you can think of it in those terms, it can be really helpful, because you’re just stating a fact. And so that really helped me be able to say, “I’m going to say this directive in the same way that I would say any of those basic facts: put your shoes by the door, pack up your toys. We’re going to get in the car. Now it’s time for a bath.” And that really also goes back to being the captain of the ship, right? And being in charge, because we talk about how, if we’re on a cruise ship and all of a sudden you see the captain running around and screaming and hollering, we’re gonna panic. What’s happening? We’re not safe. It rocks the safety, the security. There’s all sorts of questions that come. Same thing happens in our house. Our children are reliant on us for that sense of safety, security, belonging, and if they see us having these really big responses or talking in this really aggressive manner, they have the same response. It rocks their safety and security. So it goes back to just steadying that ship and keeping the calm and using that assertive voice that’s not passive, and it’s also not aggressive. It’s just there and it’s clear. And it’s direct.

 

Kristina  15:01

So when we think about strategies to help discipline and guide your child, using an assertive voice is a beautiful place to start. It takes a lot of practice. It does. And if it’s the only thing you take away from today-

 

Heather  15:17

That’s a great place to start, a great place to start. 

 

Kristina  15:22

It is a great place to start. And people will give us feedback after they’ve learned this skill and say things like, “It was like a miracle. I couldn’t believe it. They respond so differently when I don’t ask it as a question.” You’d think some people think, “Ah, it’s not that big of a deal. It’s not that big of a deal.” It is a big deal. 

 

Heather  15:41

So let’s give them some examples.

 

15:43

Great.

 

Heather  15:44

Let’s think about how in our own homes, we have used the assertive voice. Let’s say we’re going to transition from our morning breakfast and we need to load up and get into the car. What is an example of something we could say to the child in that moment?

 

Kristina  16:04

“It’s time to load up into the car. You need to get your backpack, put your coat on and meet me at the door.” Perfect, beautiful. Now that’s if the child can handle that many steps at a time. When they’re really young, you need to give them one step. And sometimes we even need to say, “Put on your shoes like this. Sit on your bottom.” Yes, and show them or give them each individual step. 

 

Heather  16:34

We call that “painting the picture.” And we do this all the time when we work with young children, because it’s kind of a full-body experience for them, communication is, because they’re language emergent. And so we know young children look at all of our facial expressions. In fact, they focus on that, oftentimes more than our words, which is another reason why we don’t want to be in an aggressive state when we’re giving directions, because we’re not going to get our best responses. They’re going to be fearful, right? But, yes, when we can paint the picture and point with our fingers towards the door, “It’s time to head to the car. Line up by the door, or go to the door, get your shoes on. Sit on your bottom like this. Pull them on.”

 

Kristina  17:26

I love watching our teachers do this with kiddos. When they come inside and the teachers will give the directive,”It’s time to take your gear off.” Now they have visuals. Visuals are also a very powerful strategy to use with children. Wonderful tool. So they have visuals of a child first removing their boots, right? First thing you need to do is remove your boots, remove your hat, your mittens. Then you can move forward with a coat and snow pants or an Okie suit if they’re in their rain suit, but to just say, “Take your gear off to a child who does not have the skills to even know the order. Those darling children have no idea trying to get those rain suits off with their mittens still on and their boots still on, getting really frustrated because they can’t even unzip the zipper because they don’t have their mittens off yet. They don’t know. They’re not trying to be difficult. They don’t know.

 

Heather  18:27

Nope. And frustration increases, and then we’re stomping or shouting, “Teacher, Teacher, teacher.”

 

Kristina  18:33

And us, as the adult, we may be becoming frustrated. And so it’s like, over stimulated, for like for crying out loud, your boots have to come off first.

 

Heather  18:45

Which we know, but they don’t know. It’s a learning process. 

 

Kristina  18:49

So we’ve said this before. I’m gonna say it again, because it’s an important thing to know: children do well when they can. So if a child is not doing what you’re hoping they would do. It is because the expectation that we hold exceeds their skill level. So what we need to do is, instead of getting angry that they don’t have the skill, we need to think, “Ah, how can I help them grow this skill?” So the use of visuals is helpful, because as we walk alongside children, and they are gaining this particular skill, brushing your teeth. So there is a toothbrush, yes, I need the toothbrush, and I need the toothpaste, and I take off the top, I put it on my toothbrush. I get it wet, because I don’t like toothpaste, so it’s not wet. I get it wet. Brush my teeth. Then what I do? Glass water, I rinse my mouth, I spit, I wipe off my mouth. All of those steps, right? You can lead a child through those steps, but a visual allows them to gain some independence in that sooner than them just having to remember all of the steps in there.

 

Heather  19:59

Right. Because they hold open their mind differently, and they access it differently than they do words-

 

Kristina  20:04

Because that’s a lot of steps.

 

Heather  20:06

It’s a lot of steps. “Go brush your teeth.” And when you really break down, a lot of the things that we ask kids to do, most of them, are a lot of steps. And that’s why visuals are a tool that we use frequently, and that can really smooth things out for children. Let’s talk about even getting in the car. So we’ve got our shoes on. We’re at the back door. I’m going to open the door. We’re going to walk in the garage, and you’re going to get in the van or car, or whatever it might be, and it’s just like you’re narrating what we need them to do. And again, it’s the same voice as “the grass is green,” “the sky is blue,” and what that kind of narrating, or you can think of it as sportscasting, does it makes it very clear to the child what they’re supposed to be doing, when they’re supposed to be doing it, and how we’re going to move things along smoothly, and that increases, again, their feelings of security, because they know, they know the expectation. It’s very clear. It’s direct. It’s not aggressive. But it keeps them moving along, right?

 

Kristina  21:16

So this is a big skill to learn for the adults using an assertive voice, it absolutely is. But let me tell you why learning the skill is important. That does not mean that your child is always going to nod and say, “Okay, here I go. This is what I want to do. Let’s do that.”

 

Heather  21:36

Because, developmentally, they’re trying to grow their independence, and part of that is they’re going to kick the boundary and they’re going to push back and back and they’re going to say, “I don’t want to” or maybe have a complete meltdown.

 

Kristina  21:43

So, like I had said, first step learning that assertive voice. The next step is, well, what do I do when my child doesn’t do what I’ve directed them to do, when I’ve asked them? I’ve used the assertive voice. I haven’t said “okay” at the end. I didn’t use my “please” and “thank you” or “could you?”, “would you?” I gave the directive and they say “No,” or they run the other direction, or they have a meltdown, or they chuck whatever’s in their hands. What do I do now? There’s a process that we’ll use, which is three different steps. It is: empathy, expectation, choice, and this is a little three step process that you rinse and repeat as often as you must, until the child is able to comply. So this is what it looks like. It’s time to take your bath, and the child responds,

 

Heather  22:49

I don’t want to. I want to keep playing. 

 

Kristina  22:52

Oh, honey, I know you were having so much fun playing. Yeah, and it’s hard to stop.

 

Heather  22:58

I don’t want to.

 

Kristina  22:59

I know, honey. It’s time to take your bath. You may hold my hand as we walk up the stairs, or you may walk up by yourself. Which would you like to do? I’ll go by myself. Wonderful. Now let me just tell you what that was. One round we have gone six, seven, eight, rounds of that exact same thing. If Heather were to respond, “No, I’m not doing it.” You go back to empathy. I hear you. You’re feeling really strongly that you don’t want to take a bath right now. I get it. That’s really tough. It’s time to take your bath. So we did empathy. We restate the expectation, and then we give them a choice. Would you like to use bubbles this time or no bubbles? Now you can make that choice as fun as you’d like. It is not a place to bring in bribes where you would say “It’s time to take your bath. If you go up without a fuss, then we can…” Nope. We’re not going to have a bribe at this point. We’re going to state the expectation and a choice. The choices need to be things that you can live with, right? Do you want to use the purple shampoo that smells like lavender, or do you want to use the gold shampoo? Whichever would be fine with me. The child gets to choose. If they still say, “No, I hate shampoo. It gets my eyes. It burns my eyes.” You say, “Oh, I know when I get shampoo in my eyes. It burns my eyes too. Nobody likes that. It’s time to take your bath. Would you like to…” and then you give your choices again, empathy, expectation, choice. Now it is also a lovely thing to infuse a little humor into it, if you can, but you don’t want that to distract from here is the expectation. I can empathize with why you don’t want to do that. It is not the time to say “you’re being ridiculous. You Love baths. Let’s go.” Nope. So we return to that empathy, and the empathy needs to be as authentic as you can make it. Sometimes we’re frustrated, right? 

 

Heather  25:12

It’s taking me really long time. This is ridiculous. I don’t have time for this. I don’t have patience for this. And in those moments, I always try to remember, ‘Dang it, I’m the grown up. I’m the grown up. And dang it, I think I’m in charge here.”

 

Kristina  25:35

Even when I’m tired and I don’t have all my patience, I’m still the one in charge. 

 

Heather  25:39

You really just want to say, “Go take a freaking bath!”

 

Kristina  25:46

And then I’m gonna smell the lavender.

 

Heather  25:50

Cover my whole body in lavender. That’s

 

Kristina  25:52

That’s when your child says, “You’re speaking with passion.”

 

Heather  25:56

Exactly.

 

Kristina  25:58

So that goes back to how do you bring your calm into these moments? For me, it’s taking deep breaths, zooming back out.

 

Heather  26:07

And it might be that you have to tag another person if you have one, to be like, “Yep, this is not going to be my shining moment, please help.” And that’s fair. And then they can come in and be like, “Oh, sweetie. You and Mommy are really upset about the bath.”

 

Kristina  26:25

“Let’s all take a deep breath.” Yeah, sometimes they do need a different voice or a different face. Some of us have the luxury of having another person there that we can tap out with. Some of us don’t. So figuring out how to regain your calm, you can even say, “Boy, this feels like it’s really tricky tonight. I’m not sure why, but I’m here with you, and we’re gonna get through it together. It’s time for a bath.”

 

Heather  26:51

And for me, even saying, in that moment “I can’t wait till we can snuggle up and read a book” helps me get back into my frontal lobe to be like, “Oh, we’re gonna get to a better place.” And it might be enough for that child to be like “me too.” 

 

Kristina  27:09

That’s right. Books come after bath. So those three little steps: empathy, expectation, choice, over and over and over again take you out of negotiating. You’re not negotiating here. Take us out of threats or bribes or other things that we do just to try to move the child from point A to point B because we’re tired, because we don’t know what else to do. It removes all of that, and it keeps you connected with your child. I stay connected to my kiddo when I can respond with empathy to what they are feeling, even if it’s ridiculous in my mind, they are feeling it. So joining with them, continuing that attachment really important.

 

Heather  28:01

And really what we’re doing is building the resilience as well. And they need to know that as strong as they are, we’re strong too. And we demonstrate that through our calm, which is not easy. I say that and it rolls off the tongue like it’s so easy. It is not easy. It is not easy at all. But it helped me to always think, what do I want to teach? What do I want to teach? Because there are those moments as a parent where we hear something come out of our child’s mouth and it sounds exactly like us, and it does not sound pretty, and I think “I taught them that.” Like that tone or that passion, I taught them that. So that helps me to, in those moments, to think, what do I want to teach? And to just take the time, like you said, to calm ourselves first, because that increases their security. It models the skill for them. And it gets us all to a better place in the midst of what’s really challenging. 

 

Kristina  29:11

Yeah, parenting is humbling. 

 

Heather  29:15

Yes, over and over and over again, over and over and over, we need a good, solid self esteem to do this job. 

 

Kristina  29:22

Yeah, and you need to be able to phone a friend and say, “Wow, I did not show up tonight the way I wanted to.”

 

Heather  29:29

And we all have those days, yes, yes, we do. The reminder of we’re not perfect parents. Nobody’s a perfect parent. No parent. Everybody has these moments, and it goes back to being able to get through it. And then look at your sweet child hopefully as you’re putting them to bed to say, “I love you so much. We belong to each other. That was tough and tricky. I didn’t love it. It didn’t feel good to me. How did it feel to you? Yeah, didn’t feel good to me either. No, tomorrow’s a brand new day.” Yeah, can’t

 

Kristina  30:00

wait. So step one strategy utilizing an assertive voice. I encourage everyone out there to give it a try. It’s going to take some time to change from using a passive voice to using an assertive voice.

 

Heather  30:18

Or moving from an aggressive voice to an assertive voice.

 

Kristina  30:22

Yeah, and being able to use an assertive voice in a way like you would say “the sky is blue.” “It’s time for your homework.” Not Oh, this could be me in my home algebra. We’re doing algebra right now, and I’m not loving it. I’m not loving it. Neither is my daughter when it’s like, “Please do your homework.” No, that’s aggressive and passive at the same time.

 

Heather  30:47

And sends a message of that homework? It’s kind of pointless.

 

Kristina  30:53

Oh, don’t- Yeah, we don’t want to start there. I will say to my daughter, “It’s helping you learn a different way to think.” Yeah. She says, “When will I ever need to know how to do this?” I think, “Yeah, you won’t.”

 

Heather  31:06

My son asked me that same question, I think, and he was in geometry, and he said, “When in the world am I ever going to use this? I am never going to use this again.” And I said, “Oh, yeah, you will about thirty years from now, when your tenth grader is sitting at the table, and you need to help them with geometry.” You’re gonna use this. That’s one other time. Yeah, however many kids you have, you’re gonna use it that many times. Good luck and God bless.”

 

Kristina  31:36

I love it. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina

 

Heather  31:46

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina  31:51

See you on the trails!

 

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  32:08

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  32:15

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  32:28

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 11: Discipline Series, Part 2 of 3

 

In this episode, Kristina and Heather discuss effective discipline strategies that focus on children’s skill development rather than controlling behavior. They share the inspiring story of a father named Tom, who transformed his parenting approach over two years by focusing on personal growth, self-care, and understanding his emotional triggers. Tom’s journey involved improving his sleep, nutrition, and stress management, which led to increased patience and a stronger bond with his daughters. The hosts emphasize the importance of self-regulation, modeling calm behavior, and the long-term commitment to parenting. They also preview upcoming episodes on discipline strategies.

 

Personal Transformation and Its Impact on Parenting

  • Kristina introduces the episode’s focus on effective discipline that fosters skill development in children rather than behavior control.
  • Heather emphasizes the importance of understanding and managing emotional triggers to respond to children with patience and clarity.
  • Kristina shares an inspiring story about a preschool father who transformed his parenting approach over two years by focusing on personal growth and attachment with his daughters.
  • Heather highlights that the father’s journey involved not just changing tactics but also personal transformation, leading to a significant positive impact on his family. The episode will feature a dad named Tom who underwent a transformative journey in parenting, inspired by the ODC Network’s parenting classes.

 

Tom’s Parenting Journey and Challenges

  • Heather describes Tom’s active participation in parenting classes during the challenging year of 2020, seeking to improve his parenting skills.
  • They discuss how Tom expressed a deep desire to change his parenting approach, asking vulnerable questions about managing his emotional triggers and moving away from punitive models.
  • Kristina and Heather talk about the importance of self-care and personal transformation in becoming a better parent, emphasizing the need for rest, proper nutrition, and stress management.
  • Tom’s journey involved exploring foundational principles, understanding his children’s needs, and practicing new parenting strategies.

 

The Importance of Self-Care and Emotional Regulation

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the significance of self-care practices like breathing, mindfulness, and physical activity in maintaining emotional regulation.
  • They emphasize the need for parents to practice these skills proactively to avoid reacting in harmful ways during stressful moments.
  • Kristina explains the brain’s three parts: the frontal lobe (thinking brain), the emotional center, and the survival state, highlighting how emotions can lead to reactive behavior.
  • The conversation includes personal anecdotes about handling emotional triggers and the importance of modeling calm behavior for children.

 

Tom’s Practical Steps to Personal Transformation

  • Heather outlines the specific steps Tom took to improve his well-being, including increasing physical activity, decreasing screen time, and practicing mindfulness.
  • Tom implemented a mindfulness practice to recenter himself and focus on his goals as a parent.
  • These changes led to improved patience, increased playtime with his daughters, and a stronger attachment within the family.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the concept of a “well” and the importance of filling it with self-care to have the capacity to give to others.

 

The Impact of Personal Transformation on Family Dynamics

  • Tom’s personal transformation had a ripple effect on his family, improving his ability to manage stressful situations and connect with his daughters.
  • He became more patient and joyful in his parenting, reaping the benefits of solid parenting practices.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize that personal transformation is an ongoing process and not something that happens overnight.
  • The conversation highlights the importance of compassion and self-forgiveness in the journey of becoming the parent one aspires to be.

 

Strategies for Co-Regulation and Emotional Regulation

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of co-regulation with young children, who lack the ability to self-regulate.
  • They emphasize the need for parents to practice deep breathing and other calming techniques to model calm behavior for their children.
  • Kristina shares her personal experience with breathing and the importance of finding a calming space to practice these skills.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of modeling calming behaviors and providing children with tools to regulate their own emotions.

 

The Role of Personal Reflection and Self-Compassion

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of personal reflection and self-compassion in the journey of parenting.
  • They emphasize the need to unpack personal beliefs and experiences to understand and change parenting practices.
  • The conversation includes personal anecdotes about handling emotional triggers and the importance of finding a space for self-reflection.
  • Heather shares her experience of using a laundry room as a space for self-reflection and finding her calm.

 

Tom’s Commitment to Sharing His Journey

  • Tom’s commitment to sharing his journey and the positive impact of his personal transformation on his family inspired others.
  • He emphasized the importance of doing things differently and the joy of parenting when guided by solid parenting principles.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of celebrating small victories and the ongoing journey of personal and parenting growth.
  • The conversation concludes with a focus on the importance of commitment and the meaningful moments that come from being a parent.

 

Conclusion and Preview of Future Episodes

  • The next episode will focus on practical strategies for discipline, continuing to emphasize the importance of guiding children’s skill development rather than controlling behavior.
  • Kristina shares her motivation for attending parenting classes before becoming a parent, highlighting the challenges and importance of effective parenting.
  • The episode concludes with a preview of the next episode’s focus on discipline strategies and the ongoing commitment to parenting growth.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Note: 

In a prior episode, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 11: Discipline Series, Part 2 of 3

 

Kristina  00:00

In today’s episode, we’re continuing our deep dive into the world of effective discipline, not the kind that controls behavior, but strategies that help our kids develop skills.

 

Heather  00:12

Absolutely, it’s all about connecting with guiding and nurturing our little ones, rather than managing them, and a really big part of this is understanding our own emotional triggers. We all have them when we know what sets us off, we can intentionally respond to our kids with more patience and clarity.

 

Kristina  00:32

We also share a truly inspiring story about a preschool father who attended our in-person parenting classes two years in a row, he worked really hard to completely transform his parenting approach. 

 

Heather  00:47

We had the privilege of seeing him become the dad he always wanted to be.

 

Kristina  00:54

His journey involved more than just changing his tactics. It was about changing himself first

 

Heather  01:00

By understanding that discipline began with him, he intentionally worked to become more patient and focused on forming a stronger attachment with his girls. This was a game changer for his family.

 

Kristina  01:14

I love that. It really highlights how personal transformation can ripple out and positively affect our relationships with our children.

 

Heather  01:23

It sure can, and it’s so important to know that it’s never too late to begin this. 

 

Kristina  01:29

And that’s the essence of parenting. It is a longterm commitment. We’re not trying to control behavior. We’re actively modeling and then guiding our children to grow them into self-regulated individuals.

 

Heather  01:44

So join us as we dive deeper into some practical strategies that will help us embrace this journey. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  01:58

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  02:11

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  02:33

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  02:39

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  02:40

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  02:46

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:59

The ODC nNetwork is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives.

 

Heather  03:06

Please visit www.ODNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. Today, we will be talking about a dad that you and I have worked with who went on a journey for himself and his family. 

 

Kristina

I love, Tom. 

 

Heather

Yes, and Tom has been a gift to us, and he has really transformed himself into the parent that he’s wanted to become. I don’t know if he’d say he’s there yet, but oh, he’s come a long way. 

 

Kristina  03:47

Yeah, he joined us in our parenting classes he attended two years in a row. He did. We offer parenting classes locally. We’re in Holland, Michigan.

 

Heather  03:58

And that was during a little known year called 2020, so it was a-that’s important to say, because it was a tricky year, and in lots of people’s lives, and there was lots of time at home, and if you weren’t the parent you wanted to be, you couldn’t get away from that in the home like you normally could during other times.

 

Kristina  04:23

It was an intense time in a lot of ways.

 

Heather  04:25

Absolutely, it was. And so Tom had expressed to us – this is amazing. I love this information – He would come, he would sit in the front row of class. He and his wife would be there. And I remember him at one class in particular. It was probably during our discipline series. And we were all spread out for lots of reasons then, right? And so I remember at this particular time he was towards the back, and he said, kind of with his head in his hands, “But how? How do I do this? I get some of the what I need to do. But how do I do this? Because I default back so easily to the things I don’t want to be doing. So how do I even begin? Where do I begin? I get that I have to know who I want to be as a parent, that I have to have an understanding of what my long term goals are for my children and my family, that I have to be anchored in foundational principles that we agree on. How, in the midst of all of it, where the emotions and the intentions are high, how do I do it?” 

 

Kristina  05:49

Yeah, he had that wonder about: how do I discipline and how do I manage the times when I’ve been activated, when something that is happening has tapped me, and this other side of me emerges that I’m hoping won’t, but it does. How do I do that? Yes, that is exactly what he was saying, and it was a beautiful, vulnerable question for him to ask, and he was sincerely asking, and had quite a bit of emotion behind it. He did because he really wanted to do things differently, moving away from a punitive model, and trying to figure out, how do I incorporate all of this into our daily lives, and what do I do with my triggers? What do I do when things activate me and I respond in ways I was hoping not to.

 

Heather  06:43

And it took for him looking at kind of like we’ve talked about being the detective with our kids and going back to basics. He kind of had to do that within himself and explore how much rest mm I getting? How am I fueling my body. How am I setting myself up for success? How am I getting out any stress or angst? Am I working out enough? Am I maybe meditating and having focused time to practice being calm and being centered and breathing? I think those were very new concepts to him. We talk all the time about it. It begins with us. We talked last time about how I’ve never been able to control another human being, have you? No, we can’t. We can’t, right? And so all we can do is be the “captain of the ship” and be in charge, which means we have a voice of authority. It’s an assertive voice that we can scan the horizon. We can watch for icebergs or things that are going to get in the way of our path, and we can be proactive in changing our course to get around them safely, rather than being reactive after the ship has hit something right. And he had to do that, but he didn’t know how, and so he began on this: How do I begin with myself? And maybe get better rest and fuel my body differently, and read outside of what we had taught to gain further knowledge on what is this whole thing of attachment for kids? And, yes, I know it’s powerful, but why? And what is this whole concept of lagging skills and having appropriate expectations for two and four year olds? Yeah, what does that look like to have appropriate expectations and to set that up? 

 

Kristina  08:56

Wow. Yeah. You said something earlier that I think is so important, and that is when you said you need to make space to practice these things, because it’s not until we really develop a habit of finding our calm so that we can share it with our children. We have to practice that. It’s harder to do when your buttons have been pushed. Oh, and if you haven’t practiced it prior to those times, it will be that much harder to avoid what you’re hoping to avoid. 

 

Heather  09:33

If we’re waiting to practice in the heat of the moment, yeah, it’s going to be a much longer journey, because our our brain defaults to what we know and it wants what it wants. And when we get in our emotion center, you can guarantee those kids are going there too because we’ve led them there. Or they’re already there, and they need us to bring that calm. And we say they’re going to catch our calm, or they’re going to catch our chaos. And vice versa. Like it’s just how it works. 

 

Kristina  10:26

So I just want to take a moment to talk about – this is a very crude way of thinking of the brain – but when you think about the brain in three basic parts: the part up front, your frontal lobe, which is our thinking brain, is where we control our impulses. It’s where we are able to make decisions. It’s where we are in control of our language and our behavior. That’s all up front.

 

Heather  10:56

Thinking, problem solving center, calm.

 

Kristina  10:58

Then if you move back kind of midway down the brain is our emotional center, and that’s where we go when we’re feeling strong emotions, when we maybe are triggered, when we’re in the midst of upset or fear or anger or anxiety, grief, yes, even joy. It’s not just the hard emotions, it’s all of the emotions are in that middle part. When we’re in the middle part, we don’t have easy access to our thinking brain. It’s why, when we’re upset, we say things and we do things we would never do if we were in our calm,thinking brain. But because we’re in that emotional center, things come out of us. We make threats that are ridiculous. On our honeymoon, I can be a bit of a back seat driver, which has to do with my own… it’s shocking, isn’t it? It has to do with my own anxiety. But I do offer a little bit too much input there. And we were on our honeymoon driving and apparently had been just a little too much. And Vince said, “I am never driving with you again.” And he was in his emotional state because I had tapped him a few too many times, but that’s a statement that I was like, “How’s that gonna work for us? I mean, we’re just starting our marriage, and we’re never gonna ride together? It’s gonna be fun. That’s fantastic. That’ll be great.” So when we’re in that part in our brain, we do and say things we wouldn’t normally do. It’s when you chuck a plate and break it. It’s when you slam a door. It’s when you do those things that you think, “Yeah, that wasn’t the wisest thing to do.”

 

Heather  12:36

And it’s the pivotal point when you’re in that brain state. You’ve got two choices: we’re going up, or we’re going down.

 

Kristina  12:43

And if you’re going down, you’re going to that third part, which is your survival state, right? And that is when, whether it is reasonable to anybody else, you feel your survival is threatened. And some of us have a superhighway from our thinking brain all the way back to our survival brain. And, in your survival brain, it really is about distancing and protecting yourself from the attack. Whatever the attack may be, it is trying to find safety and that protection. And oftentimes, when we discipline, we are in our emotional state. We may even tip into our survival state when we’re feeling like we’re being disrespected. Or when we feel like we are not in charge, and it taps things from our past. We are, at the very least, in that emotional state many times, trying to regain control of another person, the child in those moments is most certainly in their emotional state, and they more quickly will go to their survival state. 

 

Heather  13:51

Because they’re little. They have fewer skills. They have fewer skills, fewer tools, absolutely. And less brain.

 

Kristina  13:58

It’s why it’s so important to practice. Because, like I said, some of us have superhighways that go from thinking to emotional to survival, and if we don’t practice the skills to keep us in our thinking brain during the times when we’re not triggered, you can bet it’s not going to happen when you are triggered. The other thing that I was thinking of, Heather, when you were talking about how to do this differently, you need to take a good, hard look at yourself and unpack some of those things. You also need to do that with a whole heap of compassion, because it’s easy to be like, “I’m not a good parent. I did that terribly. I’m doing these things that damage my child. I’m the worst.” And yet, when we’re unpacking where those things come from, saying “I can do it differently. It’s okay. I did the best I could with the skills I had,” and to move them from that place.

 

Heather  15:03

And it’s never too late. Never too late. And moving forward, I think, is the key there, because if we stay in that place of all of those guilty feelings, it doesn’t move us forward. No, it doesn’t help get us there.

 

Kristina  15:17

And it doesn’t help us guide our children, because we’re working from this place of this guilt and shame, absolutely.

 

Heather  15:35

So let’s talk about the ways that, when we want to make the significant shift, how do we go about finding our calm and keeping our composure to be able – we like to think of it as you had said, co-regulation. And children, young children, do not have the ability to self-regulate yet. And they just aren’t there. It would be an unreasonable expectation. So, when they become dysregulated for whatever situation it might be, and it seems like many of them are kind of trivial – Can’t get my mittens on. Why do I have thumbs? I hate my socks. It doesn’t feel right. I want the blue cup. Yes, the all of the meltdowns that can ensue. How do we begin in those moments?

 

Kristina  16:31

One of the things that I have noticed about myself on this journey is that breathing is really important to me. So is sleep. Oh, doogie, if I do not get enough sleep, everybody’s gonna feel it. So that’s a responsibility. I have to do my very best to ensure that I’m getting enough rest. So rest and breathing are super important. And I model that for my daughter and for others, when I am moving into the emotional part of my brain. When I realize I have been activated, I need three or four good breaths. Big breaths, in through my nose, out through my mouth. And, during that time, I think to myself, “Zoom out. Get a bigger picture of what’s happening. And consider what am I hoping to accomplish? What am I hoping to teach? What is my intention here?” 

 

Heather  17:34

What am I going to model? 

 

Kristina  17:35

Yep, what am I going to model? So, for me, that breathing is really important.

 

Heather  17:40

And it’s really hard. If we do this deep, deep breathing in front of children, we want to exaggerate when we’re teaching it to them, because it’s a belly breath. It’s deep breath where your belly is hopefully inflating and you’re holding and then it’s breathing out. It’s really hard for the child. It might take one or two or even three breaths, but it’s hard for them not to eventually capture that. As long as we’re not doing anything but breathing. If we give them words or other things to respond to, they will even make eye contact sometimes. But if we can be in their space, maybe not directly, looking at them, unless, of course, they’re being unsafe in some way, right? But breathing and modeling that for them, they eventually do begin to do it.

 

Kristina  18:32

They do. And as they get just a little bit older, I will say “I need to take some deep breaths. That will help me think.” And then I do that. Or “I need to take some deep breaths, because I’m getting upset.” And actually saying the words out loud is demonstrating to our children: you do have the option of doing some of these things. Breathing is what works for me. Moving to a different space is what works for my husband. He needs to move himself physically away from the intensity, and then he’s able to regulate himself. I have a dear friend for whom it is taking a walk. That’s what they need to do. When they become activated, they need to say, “I need to go take a walk.” A beautiful thing to do. Not “I need to go punch something.” I need to figure out a way to regulate myself,” which can be breathing, walking, listening to music, journaling, getting a big glass of water, doing things to help you return back to that thinking brain, so being able to figure out for ourselves, what is it going to be? Practicing that proactively so that we can do it in the moment, to bring ourselves back to our thinking brain, where we can share our calm, not invite them into chaos?

 

Heather  19:52

So let’s get back to Tom. And let’s talk about what, specifically, he did and how he began and really it became the deep desire to want to do it differently. So that was first. Then he began to look at himself. He didn’t immediately make changes that were going to impact his family. He began with himself and looking at the rest that he was getting, right? How much screen time he was taking in? And it was during a shutdown in 2020, so the reality was we were all heavy screen time, probably because there was only so many offerings for us. We couldn’t go out and be in the world like we were accustomed to. How much time was he spending outside in nature? And how was he connecting to the kind of spirituality that nature can connect us to?

 

Kristina  20:53

He really had to get back to those basics which we talk about when you’re searching for the “why” behind a child’s behavior. He needed to get back to his own base. 

 

Heather  21:04

What was he putting in his body? How was he hydrating? What was he using to hydrate himself? All of those things are the immediate things he did within himself: increased physical activity, decreased screen time, became better at breathing and learned how to do it really well. Got more sleep, became intentional about getting that sleep.

 

Kristina  21:29

And he even implemented some type of little meditation practice he did where he could re-center himself back on who I want to be as a person, who I want to be as a parent and find that really centered space, which was helpful to him. That’s helpful for some people.

 

Heather  21:48

Absolutely. So as that all began, it took some time. But it began to change who he was, how he interacted with the people in his home, and his ability to cope, and his reactivity. 

 

Kristina  22:07

Yeah, and I like to think about it as a well. We are each a well. And when we do those things, to take care of our basic needs, to tend to the things that help us feel well in the world, those are things that fill our well full of water, and when we’re full of water, we have plenty to give to others. What happens if we don’t pay attention to that or stay mindful of meeting those basic needs and finding the spaces to be able to proactively practice and to find your center is it’s like we have a leak. It depletes our well, it depletes our well, and then we don’t have it to give. So it’s kind of like the airplane, you know, when they’re doing the safety instructions at the beginning of a flight, they’ll talk about when the air masks descend, you need to put yours on before you assist somebody else. If you aren’t taking care of your basic needs, your well is depleted and maybe dry.

 

Kristina  23:13

And then how in the world can you give to the people that are around you? Give of yourself, give up your compassion, give up your nurturing. You don’t have it in you because you are dry.

 

Heather  23:27

It’s tapped. Absolutely. So that began to change for him. His well was getting on its way to being full. And then what happened was he realized, and we know this from all of our graduate therapy classes, that when there’s one role shift within a family, it affects everybody else. And so he began to see the power in his personal shift and the transformation that that was having in the family as children, because as he took care of himself and focused on rest and nutrition and activity and his mindfulness, he was more patient. He was more able to play for extended times with his daughter, the attachment and the connection with his daughters all increased, and it improved his capacity to manage stressful situations. He had a well to pull from, yeah,

 

Kristina  24:35

And because his well was full, not only was he able to manage those difficult situations in a way that he was hoping to, in a way that would benefit his children, and support their growth, he also was freed up to connect back into the joy of parenting, because his well was full and

 

Heather  24:56

To reap the benefits-

 

Kristina  25:01

So playing with them and laughing and marveling and who these little people are was something that wasn’t possible when you are, that-

 

Heather  25:11

He hadn’t experienced, right? He hadn’t experienced it. And he is, as we know him now, so passionate about getting that message to families: that it can be so joyful. It is really important. You as a parent can truly shape and grow your child into this wonderful person that they’re designed to be, anchored in what you created in your family. And that, for him, was really, really powerful, that he could have that impact, and he was doing it so differently. This was a two-year journey. He came to our classes two years ago. Yes, he did. Year one was when he was saying, “But how? And it was emotional. By year two, he was well on his way. And do you remember by the time we got to the discipline series in year two, I believe at the end of it, he spoke about how he had moved away from a punitive model in his home and from any physical anything. And he had actually had a conversation with a family member who cared for his children, and had used a punitive model. The caretaker. And he called them out and had a conversation. Very respectfully shared the “why” behind how he wanted them to be parented, and then asked for repair to be made to the child’s sense of safety and security. Do you remember that?

 

Kristina  26:53

I do. Yes, I sure do.

 

Heather  26:57

So it was a big journey. Yeah, it was not an easy journey,

 

Kristina  27:00

And he encountered, as we all do when we’re looking at how we raise our children, if we want to do it differently in the future, there’s grief that comes along with not being who we want to be during those times before we knew better, or maybe who they needed. Or before we had the capacity to even take a look at these things. There’s grief. And what I want us each to know is that, although there is grief, again, surrounding yourself with the compassion of “I did the best I could with the skills I had and the resources that were at my disposal. I’m choosing to do it differently. I can go back and say, I yelled a lot, or I X, Y, Z a lot, and I want to do that differently.” 

 

Heather  28:00

That’s the very famous notion of “we do the best we can until we know better. And then once we know better, we do better.” And that’s the story of Tom. He wanted to do better, and once he knew how, he did way better. And he deeply celebrates that joy of parenting. I think you would probably say his most rewarding experience.

 

Kristina  28:31

Yeah, just even when you look at him, he is so full of joy, this energy. Yes, the new Tom. So, like most of us, he had things about his life that he needed to unpack, and we need to be able to do that unpacking out of the view of the children as we wrestle sometimes with the way we were raised or the belief systems that we adhere to, the belief systems that came into our being, sometimes without even knowing it. But to say, “Oh, I really do believe that children need to act x, y, z. Is that reasonable? 

 

Heather  29:16

Is that developmentally appropriate? To begin to think differently? 

 

Kristina  29:20

Yeah, do I need to forgive my parents? Do I need to forgive my teacher? What do I need to do within my own self to be able to embark on this journey, move forward? Yeah, and he needed to do that. And we each find, in the midst of it, our way to return back to the person that we want to be, the parent we want to be. For me, it’s zooming out and breathing. For you, you have a favorite song that you sing when you’ve become activated that helps you be able to return-

 

Heather  29:52

Kind of my inner mantra, Hallelujah Chorus. Or “You’re going to miss this. You’re going to want this back. You’re gonna wish this day hadn’t gone by so fast.”

 

Kristina  30:03

And retreating to your laundry room.

 

Heather  30:06

Yes, singing-

 

Kristina  30:06

The Hallelujah Chorus.

 

Heather  30:08

There was always a lot of activity in my home. There was a lot of children. They were very active children. It can get loud, and there were times where I had to reconcile within myself, wanting to do it differently, having done it not the way I wanted to probably being angry entirely at myself, and then retreating to my laundry room, which is not a nice place. I’m just gonna like – it’s a functional space. It’s in our mechanical room in the basement. And it has, like, concrete floors because it’s an unfinished space within the basement. And I’ve tried to, like, put rugs down, but I kind of got to the place where I was like, “No, this place is just going to be the place,” like, laundry is monotonous to me, right? It’s just, it doesn’t matter what’s happening in life, laundry is a consistent just like taxes, but it’s always there.

 

Kristina  31:09

I hate taxes, but I do love laundry, because we take the dirty things and we make them clean again. 

 

Heather  31:16

Oh, that’s sweet. I’ve never thought of it like that. I hate it. It’s just always there. Yep, perhaps I should have thought of that sooner, but I didn’t, and it was just the place that I would retreat to and close the door. And I think because it kind of matched how I felt in the moment, like this is a dark it doesn’t stink, but kind of, I mean, the dirty laundry is in there. There’s also clean laundry, so whatever. But it’s like the imagery of, I was feeling cruddy on the inside, so I’m gonna go to the cruddiest place in the house, and I’m just gonna be in the crud. And I’m gonna dig my way out, sing my little songs. Gonna angry fold the laundry, I’m gonna find my way back to calm.

 

Kristina  32:08

Do you have a mirror in there? By any chance? Because mirrors help me the breathing and the zooming out and sometimes I literally need to look at myself in the mirror.

 

Heather  32:18

I think I would end up in hysterics.

 

Kristina  32:22

I don’t end up in hysterics. I give myself a little pep talk. Sometimes it’s like, “Look at your face. Who wants to see that face? Nobody. You look upset. You look angry. You look frustrated. So how about you change your face and make it match who you want to be?” 

 

Heather  32:39

Because, gosh darn it, people like me.

 

Kristina  32:47

So I would also need to give myself a pep talk, like “You can do it. You can do it. Breathe. You got this. Here we go.”

 

Heather  32:54

Yeah, that was a very different experience than I was having in my laundry room. Yeah, was more swearing because nobody else was around, and it was getting the junk out. I think for me, angry folding laundry. My husband is an angry raker. Oh, he goes out and breaks the acorns, and the kids will be like, “Where’s Dad?” “Oh, he’s angry raking” because he looks very committed to the raking, right? And he’s all in his head, and that’s what the laundry room was for me. It was the place where I would go and be in my head and reconcile things.

 

Kristina  33:28

So finding your laundry room or finding your space with your mirror, where you can talk to yourself and fix your face. We each need to find that place or that atmosphere where we can have our little “Come to Jesus” moments.

 

Heather  33:44

And that’s really what it was. I say that the kids would be like, “Where’s mom? In the laundry room? Oh, don’t go in there.” You’re clear until she comes back out. 

 

Kristina  33:53

But to have those spaces, because none of us are going to do this perfectly. We will all mess it up. We will all respond in ways that are not what we were hoping to do, because we’re human beings, and we need to find the place where we can get it out, and then we can forgive ourselves for doing it a way we didn’t want to do it, and then we can move on. 

 

Heather  34:18

Absolutely. I never wanted to slam doors. We have solid doors, wood doors, in our home. And so, when they slam, they slam really hard. But what I learned is we also have our deep freeze, our large freezer chest in the laundry room, and it’s like you can’t slam it, and it’s just you can’t, but it could be satisfying to try, because there’s tension there, yeah, so I would lift it and be like-it would give me the tension that I needed in the moment for like, I just want to slam something. 

 

Kristina  34:53

Yep. We were never allowed to slam doors growing up. And that was not something that was tolerated in my home. I. Really wanted to slam a door. Everything in me calls to slam so I said it’s fine if you slam doors in our house, but we live in a really old house where none of the doors really close very well, so it’s not satisfying at all. My daughter’s tried it sometimes, but it’s kind of like, whoa. They don’t really close all the way. So, again, like your freezer, maybe not as satisfying as it could be, but helps to get it out.

 

Heather  35:27

It did help to get it out. And it didn’t model anything destructive I felt like, but it gave me the pressure that I needed, and then could get me to a place of this is kind of ridiculous, so yeah, how about we turn the ship around? It’s kind of like your pep talk.

 

Kristina  35:47

Yeah, to myself with my bad face in the mirror. So I just wanted to share one more thing about Tom when he went on this journey and discovered who he wants to be as a parent, and began living that out, experiencing the changes he felt in himself and in his family, the changes he felt in his relationships with his girls, he would come back to us and say, “Everyone needs to know this. Everyone needs to know this. That it’s possible to do it differently, and what it means when you do.” Connecting back into that joy, having that secure attachment, powerful, very powerful. Not easy.

 

Heather  36:31

Not easy, but well worth and not done overnight. No, I mean, we said two year journey start to, I don’t know, I don’t think any of us ever say we’re finished. No, we’re just evolving and getting better. So long term commitment and so many powerful, meaningful moments with his girls over that time that made that journey so worth it.

 

Kristina  37:04

So that’s Tom, and I’m happy that we could share his story and what we learned from him. And hopefully what we can all learn about this process of becoming, again, the parent we hope to be, and specifically today talking about what that means for discipline. When we discipline our children. We’re going to continue this conversation, because discipline is a biggie.

 

Heather  37:30

Are we digging into some strategies next? That’s what we’re going to do next. 

 

Kristina  37:35

Yes. So in our next episode, we’re going to talk about strategies for discipline, the things to avoid, the things to really lean into. Because before I was ever a parent, this is kooky, but I did it. Before I was ever a parent, I used to go to parenting classes, and others in the room would be like, “Why are you here? You don’t even have kids yet.” I’d say, “Well, this looks like the hardest thing on the planet to do, parenting. So I want to learn as much as I can before I ever enter that zone of being a parent.” And one of the things I would hear commonly amongst people who are already parents, when asked what’s the hardest part about parenting was “getting my kids to do what I want them to do.” Control. Yeah, getting kids to behave the way I want them to behave, that’s the hardest part is what I would hear often. So, we want to talk about, what are the strategies, not to control, but to help grow your child’s skills so that they are able to meet expectations that are placed on them that are developmentally appropriate. So I can hardly wait for that. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  38:54

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until next time.

 

Heather and Kristina  38:59

See you on the trails. 

 

Kristina

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  39:16

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  39:24

Since 2000, the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands-on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  39:36

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 10: The Discipline Series, Part 1 of 3

 

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina discuss the difference between discipline and punishment, emphasizing a growth-focused approach. They highlight the negative impact of punitive models on children’s mental health and attachment. Sharing personal stories, they illustrate how modeling positive behavior and providing do-overs can foster resilience and healthy development. They stress the importance of co-parenting and understanding the root causes of children’s behaviors. The conversation underscores the need for a supportive, non-punitive environment where children feel safe to learn and make mistakes, promoting long-term growth and connection.

 

“And what we say in our preschool world is ‘Whatever we shine a light on, we’re going to get more of.’ So if we’re focusing on all of the negative that we don’t want to see, and we’re calling it out and giving it attention, giving it legs to go walking around, it’s going to go walking around.”

 

Introduction to the Discipline Series

  • Heather introduces the first episode of a three-part series on discipline, focusing on the difference between discipline and punishment.
  • Kristina emphasizes that discipline is about building connections and teaching skills, not just enforcing rules.
  • Heather acknowledges the challenge of shifting to a growth-focused, non-punitive approach but highlights its rewards.
  • Kristina mentions the importance of modeling positive behavior and the shared parenting journey.

 

The Importance of Connection in Discipline

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the significance of connection and understanding in transforming the discipline experience.
  • Heather and Kristina stress the importance of getting on the same page with co-parents or caregivers regarding discipline philosophies.

 

Challenges of a Punitive Model

  • Kristina explains that many parents were raised with a punitive model of discipline, which can impact children’s mental health and attachment.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss how punitive methods can lead to increased anxiety, depression, and a negative self-image in children.
  • They highlight the importance of understanding the neurodevelopmental impact of punitive punishment on children’s brains, emphasizing the need for a different approach.

 

The Difference Between Discipline and Punishment

  • Heather explains the etymology of the words “punishment” and “discipline,” showing that punishment involves chastising, humiliating, and inflicting harm.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the negative connotations of punishment and the importance of guiding, teaching, and modeling positive behavior.
  • Heather emphasizes that punishment can only control behavior temporarily, while discipline focuses on long-term growth and skill development.
  • They discuss the importance of recognizing and teaching lagging skills rather than just punishing children for not meeting expectations.

 

“I think all parents truly want what’s best for their children. They want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. So that’s ‘punishment’ – chastise, inflict harm, penalize. Then we have ‘discipline,’ which comes from a very different place. And it means to guide, to teach, to model, to encourage. It means to embrace the teaching of follow the example of and model life after…Very different. Feels very different. I want to be in the discipline camp all the time…And the thing to remember with punishment is that it can control a child’s behavior for only so long, because it’s really reliant on power…And so if we are trying to overpower people, it’s a very short term solution to something that really needs to be ongoing and lifelong.”

 

The Impact of Punitive Methods on Children

  • Kristina and Heather discuss how punitive methods can lead to increased maladaptive behavior and a negative self-image in children.
  • They emphasize the importance of understanding the root causes of children’s behavior and addressing them with appropriate guidance and teaching.
  • Heather shares a personal story about breaking a screen door when she was a child and how her mother’s humorous response shaped their understanding of discipline.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of modeling positive behavior and providing a safe environment for children to make mistakes and learn.

 

The Role of Connection in Effective Discipline

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of connection and attachment in effective discipline, emphasizing that children need to feel safe and secure.
  • They share a story about Kristina’s daughter, Grace, angrily throwing  her Winnie the Pooh figurine and how her husband’s response led to a negative interaction.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of co-regulation and providing support to children when they are dysregulated.
  • They emphasize the need for parents to model compassion and understanding in their responses to children’s behavior.

 

“And it really is looking toward the horizon, anticipating what is ahead in the work that we do with our teachers. There’s a lot of that work to say, ‘Where are the tough spots? What are the transitions or times of day that are particularly difficult for this individual, this student?’ And if we can know that ahead of time, then it is predictable. And then…we can come up with strategies for how to help the child be successful. And we can focus on what the missing skill may be that we need to help grow so that they are able to be successful…

 

But instead of just expecting that tomorrow, it’s going to be better because maybe you got cross. Or maybe there was a punishment that was given and that’s going to teach them. It teaches them maybe to be afraid of messing up. It teaches them to perhaps be fearful of their caregiver or the person imposing the punishment, to maybe not be truthful. Because we need to remember: children do well when they can. No child is out there trying to make your life miserable, because that’s fun for them. It’s not fun for them. They want to be securely connected to their caregivers, and it’s a primary need, right? And when we behave in those punitive ways, because the child has to, for their survival, attach to us, they have to make that attachment safe. So, in their minds, they are the problem. They are the ones that carry the burden for whatever the adult is doing. And those punitive methods crack that foundation. They crack that attachment. They rock that safety, security and belonging that we talk about is so important. And when we’re utilizing a discipline model, and kids can feel safe and secure and know that there’s a growth mindset and that they can get there yet..We used to say that all the time, ‘You’re not there yet, but you’re getting there. It’s coming. You’re growing, right? And you’ll be there.’ And, gosh, when they get there, it makes it so much more rich.”

 

The Importance of a Growth Mindset

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of a growth mindset in discipline, where children are encouraged to keep trying and improve.
  • They emphasize the need for parents to provide a safe and supportive environment where children can make mistakes and learn from them.
  • Heather shares a story about her son’s behavior and how a supportive touch helped de-escalate a tense moment while they were at church.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of understanding and supporting each other as co-parents to provide consistent and effective discipline.

 

“And when you mentioned wanting our children to grow up feeling safe coming to us with whatever it might be, that’s a long view. And it begins when they are very young. And they’re bringing you stuff that is, in our adult mind, maybe child’s play or minimal or not such a big deal, right? But we have to remember that if we don’t relish in the small stuff when they’re little with them, and find the joy and excitement and enthusiasm, they aren’t going to, when they’re big, trust us with the big stuff, right? 

 

And that’s on us to be worthy of them bringing us their things, of reminding them in those times, ‘We’re on the same team. We are in this together. We are here to help and support you, guide you, love you, and you don’t have to hide those things from us, because we are your people. We are your team.’

 

And that’s a very powerful message that aids in children feeling safe and secure and able to do the hard work of growing up, making mistakes, learning from them and moving forward.”

 

The Challenges of Co-Parenting

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges of co-parenting and having different philosophies about discipline.
  • They share personal stories about their own experiences with co-parenting and the importance of communication and understanding.
  • Heather emphasizes the need for co-parents to find common ground and support each other in their parenting journey.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of being open to learning and growing together as co-parents.

 

“…And that’s kind of how our discipline journey was together. It was like if he were me and he was walking the dock. It’s just how it was. It was kind of awkward and clunky. And there were times we thought we were going in the water. And we had to work it out. And it required a lot of talking and a lot of patience and a lot of understanding that we didn’t gain our philosophies overnight, and we don’t undo them overnight.”

 

The Role of Community and Support

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of community and support in effective parenting and discipline.
  • They emphasize the need for parents to seek support from their village, whether it be family, friends, or professional resources.
  • Heather shares a story about the importance of connection in de-escalating a situation with her children.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of being open to feedback and support from others in the parenting journey.

 

Conclusion and Next Steps

  • Heather and Kristina conclude the episode by emphasizing the importance of connection, understanding, and a growth-focused approach to discipline.
  • They encourage parents to continue the conversation and seek support from their community and professional resources.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Note: 

In a prior episode, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 10: Discipline Series, Part 1 of 3

 

Heather  00:00

Welcome everyone to the first episode of our three-part series on discipline. Today, we’re diving into the difference between discipline and punishment and embracing a growth focused approach to discipline over a punitive model.

 

Kristina  00:13

That’s right. Discipline isn’t just about the rules, it’s about building connections and teaching skills. In this episode, we’ll explore how responding punitively can really impact children’s mental health and attachment. 

 

Heather  00:29

It’s a tough topic and also a crucial topic. Shifting to a growth focused non punitive approach is not easy, but it’s also so rewarding and helps build important skills in us and our kiddos.

 

Kristina  00:44

We’re not saying it’s simple. We’ll talk about how we’re all on this parenting journey together, learning and growing alongside our kids and compassion, both with ourselves and with our children, is key.

 

Heather  00:57

And sometimes, as parents, we’re not on the same page, and that can be really tricky.

 

Kristina  01:03

Absolutely. We’ll talk about how modeling positive behavior makes a huge difference. Kids are little sponges soaking up everything we do.

 

Heather  01:12

They sure are, and we’ll be sharing some personal stories in this episode to highlight the challenges and successes we faced in navigating discipline. 

 

Kristina  01:21

This discussion is all about how connection and understanding can transform the discipline experience.

 

Heather  01:29

Let’s kick off this journey together and explore how we can create a more positive approach to discipline. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  01:42

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  01:55

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  02:18

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  02:22

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  02:24

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  02:30

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:42

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives. 

 

Heather  02:50

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  03:00

Welcome back. We are so glad that you’re with us. Today, we are going to begin a conversation about a really big topic. Yes, we’re going to start discussing discipline.

 

Heather  03:16

It’s a beast. 

 

Kristina  03:17

It is a beast. It’s a really, really big topic to cover.

 

Heather  03:21

It sure is, and it’s a hot topic to cover. 

 

Kristina  03:23

We get asked a lot of questions about discipline, because it’s tricky. It’s something many times that we’ll think, well, we just do it. We don’t really have to think about it that much. 

 

Heather  03:36

And it’s one of those things that we think, in theory, is so much easier when we don’t have children, because we don’t realize your heart gets so tied up into all of the outcomes. And it’s like your little heart goes walking outside your body when you have this child, and you’re so connected to it, and you want to do so right by it, but you maybe have no idea how, all of a sudden, when, before we would see people in situations and think, “Oh, I’ll never do that,” or “My child will never behave like that.” Right? And we thought we had all of the strategies, but then, when we’re in it, it’s so different because your heart is in it differently. 

 

Kristina  04:16

Yep. You’re absolutely right. So we’re going to begin this conversation. This is not going to be a one episode kind of conversation. Discipline is a very, very big topic, and it touches us right at our very core. So why are we talking about it? We’re talking about it because it is something that everyone nurturing and raising children has to figure out. And determining what your approach to discipline is going to be, what your philosophy of discipline will be, and if you co parent or are raising a child with someone else, getting on the same page. 

 

Heather  04:56

Getting on the same page is huge. And we hear from people all the time that they are doing it so differently, maybe than their parents parented them, right?

 

Kristina  05:06

Absolutely. Many of us were raised with a very punitive model of discipline, punishment, obedience. If not at home, certainly in schools, right? We had the little clothes pins that you would move right? We all start on green, but oh, move it to yellow or move it to red. That’s actually a punitive approach to this thing we call discipline. So one of the reasons that we think it’s so important to talk about is because many of us were raised with a punitive model, and we tend to repeat what we were raised with.

 

Heather  05:47

Even if we have the best intentions not to, right in those moments of intensity, we default to what feels familiar. And so all of a sudden you can be in these heated moments, and something comes out of your mouth that is not at all your philosophy or what you intended. And it sounds much more like your childhood and how you were parented, but it came out because we default to the familiar.

 

Kristina  06:15

Yeah. And I’m not passing judgment on any of our parents or our parents. No. They were doing the very best they could with what they knew at the time. We know more now. We have all kinds of research studies that have been done, brain scanning that’s been conducted. We know more. 

 

Heather  06:33

Absolutely. And we have a vastly different world even than when you and I were growing up. Very different pressures. Very different environments. There’s just a lot of different dynamics and factors. They’re busier than they used to be. There’s way more stuff to be involved in.

 

Kristina  06:49

So some of the things that we know about a punitive model of discipline is that it does impact the mental health of those who’ve been the recipient of punitive punishment. My husband is a believer in what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. And I’ve said to him many times, “Well, actually, what doesn’t kill you oftentimes ends you in therapy.”

 

Heather  07:17

Disregulates your central nervous system.

 

Kristina  07:19

Absolutely. So understanding what punitive punishment does to the brain as far as how it actually alters the neuro-development of the brain. It results in individuals who are much more hypersensitive to their own mistakes, and less able to see the good, to hear the good, to believe the good, because they have a foundational belief that “I am not enough. I am bad. The world is a scary place, because if I mess up, there’s going to be something painful, either physically, psychologically, something painful will happen to me.”

 

Heather  08:06

There’s a connection to that inner voice.

 

Kristina  08:09

Yes. And living in relationships that are punitive: increase levels of anxiety, increase levels of depression, increase levels of feeling hopeless. It’s not good for your brain. It’s not good for your overall wellbeing. And it begins to erode the connection and attachment between child and adult, which we’ve spoken about before, is critical to wellbeing. So we know these things now. And many of us want to do it differently. We want to raise our children differently. We want to engage with children, whether they’re our own or others, in a way that allows them to be who they are doesn’t expect them to have skills they don’t have yet, and is designed to do something other than punish. We believe that with every ounce of our being and yet still, we mess up. A lot. Yeah, if my daughter was here, she’d say, “Yeah, work in progress.  Progress over perfection.”

 

Heather  09:23

And that’s okay, because you also want to model that perfection is not the goal. We’re all human. We’re all going to mess it up and muck it up. But really it’s about what we do in those moments that matters, those moments of when we’ve goofed it up. Yep, that’s the teaching moment. Yeah, that’s the other thing to say. Well, and we’ll talk about the differences in just a moment here about discipline and punishment, but a punitive model rooted in obedience doesn’t ever get to the root of the behavior, what skill we need to work on, what skill we need to teach we’re just demanding that a child sit there for a length of time, and you never get to why that might be a challenge, or is it developmentally appropriate,

 

Kristina  10:17

And in fact, maladaptive behavior, which would be behavior that we are hoping not to see, that occurs when our expectation supersedes the skills of the person that we’ve placed the expectations on, exactly that’s really important.

 

Heather  10:36

And then being able to recognize that and teach the lagging skill.

 

Kristina  10:41

And adjust your expectation until the skills have been developed to the point that the expectation can be met. We’re the ones, the grown-ups, setting the expectation. So I need to remind myself often that if a child is struggling, part of what they may be struggling with is the fact that they’re expected to do something they simply aren’t equipped to do yet.

 

Heather  11:05

And if we can’t get to a place where children are able to be successful, those kids get really good at failing.

 

Kristina  11:13

And they get angry, right? Because it’s never good enough. “I’m always in the wrong.” 

 

Heather  11:23

Well,it goes back to all the inner voice. What are they telling themselves about that fail? 

 

Kristina  11:28

Yep. So, actually, people who are interacted with in a punitive way, regarding punishment or response to choices and behaviors, it actually increases the maladaptive behavior because they have not been given the skills that they need, and so the behaviors that are maladaptive only increase again, because of their inner voice, who they believe themselves to be.

 

Heather  11:55

And what we say in our preschool world is “Whatever we shine a light on, we’re going to get more of.” So if we’re focusing on all of the negative that we don’t want to see, and we’re calling it out and giving it attention, giving it legs to go walking around, it’s going to go walking around. 

 

Kristina  12:33

I would love it, Heather, if you would help us understand the difference between discipline and punishment, because I think a lot of us mix the two up, interchange the two. We think they’re kind of the same thing and they’re vastly different. So help us understand that.

 

Heather  12:50

Yeah. Let’s talk about punishment. The word “punishment” actually comes from a Latin root of the word “punire.” It’s a verb. There’s no noun form of the word, and what that word means is to chastise, to humiliate, to inflict harm. None of those things sound pleasant at all. None of those things I don’t think we would typically relate to how we want to treat a child, or how we want to grow a child, and yet that is where the word punishment stems from, to chastise, inflict harm and to penalize. 

 

Kristina  13:33

You know, even as you say that, my whole heart gets heavy and sad.

 

Heather  13:38

Absolutely. They’re yucky terms. I guess as we look at children, we always want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. And those words don’t make me think growth in any way. They just have this yuck associated.

 

Kristina  13:55

And I thought that’s what we all want, right? To grow our children into the best version of themselves.

 

Heather  14:01

Absolutely. And it doesn’t mean we necessarily know how to do that, but I agree. I think all parents truly want what’s best for their children. They want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. So that’s punishment – chastise, inflict harm, penalize. Then we have “discipline,” which comes from a very different place. And it means to guide, to teach, to model, to encourage. It means to embrace the teaching of follow the example of and model life after. And we talk all the time about how discipline is really how you live. It truly is modeling and teaching and having those kids be able to follow the example of and you can just feel the weight in. Difference of the intention behind those two words and where they come from. Chastise, inflict harm, penalize, model, teach, lead, grow. Very different. Feels very different. I want to be in the discipline camp all the time. Yep, not that I always get there, because, you know, we can default back to some things that we don’t love, and that’s just a part of parenting and growing ourselves honestly. And the thing to remember with punishment is that it can control a child’s behavior for only so long, because it’s really reliant on power. And who holds the power and who wields the power. So when kids are little, we can pick them up and we can move their bodies, and we can get them where we need them to go, even if they are not wanting them. We can overpower them, right? We can make that happen. But my kids now, at the age that they are, like, that’s a very short term thing that can happen. All of my children are taller than I am at this point. The reality is they’re way more likely to carry me around than I can carry any of them around. They’re just younger and stronger and bigger. And so if we are trying to overpower people, it’s a very short term solution to something that really needs to be ongoing and lifelong. I have a twenty year old. I mean, we’re not disciplining him in the same way, but he lives in our home. We’re actively still guiding and teaching, and the stakes are high. He’s making important life decisions, and so discipline kind of goes on and on and on and on forever, and punishment, on the other hand, is very short lived, because it involves that power and control in whoever holds it is wielding that power. And then the other thing that we say a lot is, “Whoever is most committed to an outcome in this situation has the least amount of power.”

 

Kristina  17:23

Oh, I want you to say that again, because it’s something that we forget often.

 

Heather  17:28

The person most committed to an outcome has the least amount of power, meaning you’re kind of handing that power over to someone else because you are so committed and focused on that outcome. 

 

Kristina  17:43

And what we do in order to be successful in achieving the outcome we desire is we often tend to coerce, maybe threaten, dangle a carrot out in front if you do this, then I’ll, you know, we can go get bribery. We call those bribes. We do those things which doesn’t make anybody feel good. And when you’re in that position, at least for me, I often think, “Oh, nuts. She owns me right now.” She owns me instead of letting go of the outcome and remaining in charge. 

 

Heather  18:23

Yes, absolutely. Also, through a punitive model, we actually unintentionally teach kids some things like how to be better liars. We just get sneaky. How to get way sneakier, how to be better at kind of being bad, the things that we don’t want to see. We kind of train them in how to do those things right? Better to not get in trouble, right? Does that make sense? 

 

Kristina  18:52

Yeah.Because childhood is messy, right? They make mistakes. 

 

Heather  18:57

We all do. And they always default to this, “Oh, I’m gonna be in trouble. I’m gonna get so much trouble. I’m gonna get so much trouble.” Kids say all the time. I’ve heard so many teenagers say this in my home, “My parents are going to kill me.” And I always say to them, “No way. Your parents are not going to kill you. Your parents love you more than anybody in this world. And you need to not think that way. You need to flip it and reframe it to ‘I need to call my parents.’ And that’s a big shift for kids. And that, for my husband and I was one of the things that we needed to agree on, because that takes that future outlook of, again, what’s our foundation? What’s our goal? What are we committed to? Where are we heading? And I always wanted our children to think, “I need to call my mom. I need to call my dad.” Rather than “I’m going to be in so much trouble. They’re going to kill me.” Because kids say that kind of stuff all the time. And so we had to get on board together with that thought process, because not all people look out that far, right? And pre plan right? And we say all the time “being proactive right is way more powerful than being reactive.” Yeah, it truly is all about teaching and guiding. It’s about how we treat other people. It’s about the standard for how we treat people in our home. It’s how we respond in frustration. How we respond in anger. Because those kids are always watching us, and they’re sponges. They’re going to absorb. I remember seeing a visual. It’s a dated visual because it has some kind of stereotypical roles that aren’t true in today’s world, but it’s kind of like a comic strip, but it’s not funny. And it’s a dad coming home and kind of having a bad day. And it shows like yelling at this mom who’s in the home. And then it shows the mom going into another room and then yelling at the child. And then it shows the child going into a different room and yelling at the younger sibling. And that’s so true, how that goes. And if we can keep that picture in our mind of what we do, they soak in and then they pass on. So it is about all of that guiding. It’s about teaching. It’s about do we embrace a growth mindset? Is this a safe place to fail? Yes, we talk about failing forward. And is this a safe place to say, “I didn’t do that well?” Well, it becomes that place when we say “I messed that up.” Right? “I need a do over.” Those are the types of things that then you hear coming out of the child’s mouth.

 

Kristina  21:58

Yeah. And it really is looking toward the horizon, anticipating what is ahead in the work that we do with our teachers. There’s a lot of that work to say, “Where are the tough spots? What are the transitions or times of day that are particularly difficult for this individual, this student?” And if we can know that ahead of time, then it is predictable, and then we can pour into the child prior to those times occurring. We can come up with strategies for how to help the child be successful, and we can focus on what the missing skill may be that we need to help grow so that they are able to be successful. But instead of just expecting that tomorrow, it’s going to be better because maybe you got cross, or maybe there was a punishment that was given and that that’s going to teach them. It teaches them maybe to be afraid of messing up. It teaches them to perhaps be fearful of their caregiver or the person imposing the punishment, to maybe not be truthful, yes, because we need to remember children do well when they can no child is out there trying to make your life miserable, because that’s fun for them. It’s not fun for them. They want to be securely connected to their caregivers, and it’s a primary need, right? And when we behave in those punitive ways, because the child has to for their survival attached to us, they have to make that attachment safe. So in their minds, they are the problem. They are the ones that carry the burden for whatever the adult is doing. 

 

Heather  23:47

And those punitive methods crack that foundation. They crack that attachment. They rock that safety, security and belonging that we talk about is so important, and when we’re utilizing a discipline model, and kids can feel safe and secure and know that there’s a growth mindset and that they can get there yet is a big word. We used to say that all the time, and like, yeah, “You’re not there yet, but you’re getting there. It’s coming. You’re growing, right? And you’ll be there.” And, gosh, when they get there, it makes it so much more rich. It’s the sign in my garage: “This house isn’t perfectly put together, but our struggles become our triumphs. And that it’s a safe place to struggle and triumph.”

 

Kristina  24:38

Well, and when you mentioned wanting our children to grow feeling safe coming to us with whatever it might be absolutely that’s a long view. And it begins when they are very young.

 

Heather  24:54

And they’re bringing you stuff that is, in our adult mind, maybe child’s play or minimal or not such a big deal, right? But we have to remember that if we don’t relish in the small stuff when they’re little with them, and find the joy and excitement and enthusiasm, they aren’t going to, when they’re big, trust us with the big stuff, right? And there will be big stuff, right?

 

Kristina  25:22

And that’s on us to be worthy of them bringing us their things, of reminding them in those times, we’re on the same team, right? We are in this together. We are here to help and support you, guide you, love you, and you don’t have to hide those things from us, because we are your people. We are your team, absolutely, better or worse, we are in it together. And that’s a very powerful message that aids in children feeling safe and secure and able to do the hard work of growing up, making mistakes, learning from them and moving forward

 

Heather  26:12

I couldn’t have been more than four years old and my brother were nineteen months apart, so he was maybe six-ish or close to six. I don’t even know which one of us did this. This is in this is a famous story in my family. We lived in a ranch house. We had this sliding glass door in our living room that had a screen on it. And it went out to the patio, and then beyond the patio there was a swimming pool. And so it was kind of the hub all summer long –  in and out, in and out, in and out. And we used to lean on that screen door. We were told numerous times not to do it. But I don’t know what it was about it that felt so good. And so we did lean against this and our television was in there. So we’d just kind of be watching “Scooby Doo” like leaning against the screen door. Well, one day, that screen broke. And I do not remember to this day if it was me or my brother. All I remember is we both had really big eyes when it happened. And we immediately laid on the floor with our chin in our palms, like on our bellies, just staring at the TV, and we wouldn’t break from it. And I remember it was a Friday, because my mom was cleaning the house and Friday was cleaning house day, okay? And we were laying on our bellies on the floor, looking up at the TV. You know, our chins in our hands, and from our – what is this called? Thank you. Peripheral vision. We see our mother come down the hall and walk through and you know, it’s that moment where you’re like, don’t breathe, don’t move, don’t make eye contact. Don’t make eye contact. And she stops, and we’re like, “oh no, oh no.” And she backs up, and we’re not making eye contact, but you can see in your peripheral vision, she is looking at that screen door. And we’re like, oh no, oh no, oh no. And she says, “Kids.” And we look very sheepishly with terror, and she says, “What happened to the screen door?” And we’re like, “We don’t know. I don’t know.” And she’s like, “You don’t know?” 

 

Kristina  28:28

“No. No idea.”

 

Heather  28:31

“David, did you do that?” “No.” “Heather, did you do that?” “No. No, he didn’t mom. No, she didn’t mom. We told you I don’t know who did it.” We stuck up for each other so hard to this day, we’re like, who broke the screen door? We don’t remember, but neither one of us did it. And my mom looked at us both and said, “Hmm, that must have been one damn big fly.” And walked away. And we were like, ‘It was a really big fly. Did we just get away with that?” I’m sure we didn’t. Like we knew there was more to come. We knew my mother could look at us, and she’s a wonderful mother, and she’s also a powerhouse. So when you talk about leading by example, where do I get some of my chutzpah?

 

Kristina  29:19

Oh, no question, it’s Diane, right? Your mother, yeah, right.

 

Heather  29:24

But we also knew, like, when we were shot a certain look, oh, you had stepped in it. You had stepped in at large, and you were gonna be circled back to, maybe not in that moment, but it’s coming back. At some point. 

 

Kristina  29:39

It’s coming around. 

 

Heather  29:40

So there’s the screen door and the damn big fly to this day. I have no idea who did it.

 

Kristina  29:47

But even as you tell that story, I can feel in my gut, oh yeah, that fear. Nobody make eye don’t make eye contact.

 

Heather  29:53

No, no, no, no, no, no. Nobody. Admit it.

 

Kristina  29:57

Maybe this will just go away. Maybe it’ll just go away.

 

Heather  30:02

And my parents, both great examples. Wonderful people. But we all have these moments in our homes that take us by surprise. Because kids,  they’re brilliant and they’re challenging, and they have great ideas, and they have power in numbers sometimes. And we think, how do they come up with this stuff? And they catch us by surprise. And what are we going to do in those moments? 

 

Kristina  30:33

So the punitive model is that, you know, “Do it, or else. I’ll give you something to cry about.” And it is not helpful for growing healthy children, growing them into healthy adults. And in fact, it sets us up to think that kind of behavior is normal. You can choose to do it differently. It takes intentionality. It takes support from a co-parent or your village, because it can be counter cultural, especially to the older generations, where this type of model of discipline and really growing skills in children can look a little soft.

 

Heather  31:16

It can look soft, but it’s a lot of work. When you really understand what’s happening, it’s a lot of work.

 

Kristina  31:27

My husband and I will say this, and we’ve actually said this to Grace before, which I’m not proud of, but things like, she’ll do something, or she’ll respond in a way, she’ll behave in a manner that is not what we were hoping for. And my husband, or I will say, “If we had done that when we were young, wowza. There would have been a major punishment.” And I don’t know what we’re trying to communicate in the moment. I think we’re just trying to reconcile the fact that we’re doing it differently. We don’t need to say that to the child. And sometimes we’re surprised when, even though we want to do it differently, the old ways come out. I will never, never forget. Okay, so I know I’ve shared with you before that my daughter, Grace, who is amazing, also leaves kind of pieces of herself wherever she goes. She’s constantly losing things. Because, even as a toddler, when she was done playing with something, she would literally kind of throw it behind her, like, that’s in my past. I’m moving forward. So she lost her favorite toys all the time. And she loved the little like, figurines, yes. Oh, so she went through a real Winnie the Pooh phase. So she had little Pooh Bear and a little Rabbit and a little Piglet and a little Eeyore and Tigger. And one was certainly not enough, because they were always lost. So my husband, because he does things in big ways, we ended up with, I think, like 17 Rabbits and maybe 32 Poohs and all these figurines. I mean, all of these figurines. And at one point, Grace had, I had helped her, but we had set them all up on the table just to see the minions of Pooh figurines that we had in our home at that point. And they were all a little bit different. And so she had her favorites. And who are we going to play with today? Well, Vince had come home. And you know, when we’re in a surly mood, our children don’t become really compliant. They become a little more surly. So Vince came home, there was an exchange, and Grace chucked one of her Pooh figurines. Just chucked it. She was good at that. She liked to throw things when she was upset. I do too, honestly. So anyway, she chucks the Pooh Bear, and the response from Vince is, “You do not throw things like that in the house.” And she threw another one. And then he’s like, “That’s mine.” And he took those two figures that she had thrown. So she threw another one. He said, “That’s mine too. Keep going.” And my little. I mean, she was, what, maybe two and a half, three. She took those arms and she cleared the whole table of all of the Pooh figures. They’re all gone. 

 

Heather  34:15

You know he’s gathering them. 

 

Kristina  34:17

Oh, I know. I said to him at that point again, my mother would not be approve of this language, but I said, “You do not get in a pissing match with a two year old. That’s ridiculous. She’s not able to control herself. She doesn’t have the skills to manage her level of dysregulation. She needs to co regulate with us. So when we meet her dysregulation with our dysregulation, holy moly, and all that energy goes up. And everything, you know, kind of devolves into this, and they match each other.

 

Heather  34:54

And it’s like you threw a line and somebody got hooked. And then there’s this wild reeling and the fishes trying to, you know, somebody’s being the fish, and somebody’s winding them in.

 

Kristina  35:07

Oh man. So sometimes we show up in ways that are not what we were hoping. And so how do you reel that back? How do you apologize to your child when you model or behave in a way that’s not what you were hoping for? And now what you want to teach, right? We have a sign in our house that says, “May I have a do over please?” So we did a lot of do overs. We still do if there’s a tone that is not something we would hope for, it’s like, “Hey, try that again. Let’s take a breath and try that againHas to be done in a loving way. Because let me tell you, if your pre teen gives you sass and you say, “Try it again,” and they come back with sass and you say, “Try it again. Try it again.” 

 

Heather  35:56

There’s energy there.

 

Kristina  35:57

That’s not getting you where you want to go, but allowing people to make mistakes, because we are human, after all, and to try it again is a really lovely, compassionate way to help kids grow skills. The first step really is determining “What’s my philosophy? What’s my approach? What am I hoping to accomplish?” And then am I able to find a compromise so that I have a common understanding. If I’m fortunate enough to co-parent with somebody else, or for the people who are in my village, because both of us had partners where we were not on the same page?

 

Heather  36:38

Yes, I think that’s important to talk about, because I don’t think it’s easy for our husbands to be married to clinical social workers. First off, because we were trained in human behavior, we’re trained in child development, and it’s not easy being married to us, because we have opinions on things. And then we have this philosophical knowledge and research and we know things. And it can feel sometimes like we’re preachy to our husbands. I’m sure it feels that way. And I like to say to my husband, “But you have all of these skills that I couldn’t possess.” Like, yes, it’s kind of a challenge that my area of study and education and knowledge also really applies in our home with the children. My husband loves to boat, and I get wildly seasick unless we’re moving fast on a boat. If we stop and there’s rollers, it’s terrible. I am always vomiting. And I am not good on docks. You should see me walk on a dock. My children are like, “Are you impaired in some sort of significant way?” Yes, but I think what it is maybe a height thing, or it’s like a depth perception. And so I’ll say to my husband, “Watch me walk on this dock, because it’s kind of like how we had to figure out our parenting journey.” And he’ll come alongside me and be like, ‘You look so ridiculous I can’t not help you.” And I’m like, “Amen. I felt the same way in our home.” You know, and that’s not a jad. It’s not a jab. But you have to get to that place where you can be like,”We’re all not good at everything.”

 

Kristina  38:29

It’s not a jab. It’s a realization, though, yes.

 

Heather  38:33

And so I feel like there needs to be a video of me walking on a dock, because even I’m aware of how awkward and terrible it looks but I can’t help it, it’s just how I am. And we have a boat that’s at a marina all summer, so I look dumb a lot. The kids are like, “Oh, just go past mom, because it’s gonna take her like, seven minutes to get down this twelve foot stretch.” So and even that, in that example, there’s great modeling for your children. It’s like, “Yeah, I’m not good at this. In fact, I like, legit suck at this. And I don’t know why, but there is some sort of fear kind of around it, or like, I feel like I’m not well in my body, in that space, and to let my kids see that and see me not be good at it, you know, like their dad could cartwheel down the dock and their hands sprang off of it and back flip on it, and then I’m like, one foot in front of the other, and that’s kind of how our discipline journey was together. It was like if he were me and he was walking the dock. It’s just how it was. It was kind of awkward and clunky. And there were times we thought we were going in the water, and we had to work it out, and it required a lot of talking and a. Lot of patience and a lot of understanding that we didn’t gain our philosophies overnight, and we don’t undo them overnight. Very good point and to be able to tap one another in. I distinctly remember, as we were working through this process, being in church, my husband thinks it’s a skill that I have, that we have five people in our family, me being one, but that I can he’s like, how are your arms long enough to touch all of us when we’re sitting all in a line in church? But I don’t know. I just like to because I know connection and touch is so important, at least to my children and to my husband as well, it brings calm, yeah. And so sitting in church isn’t always the easiest thing to do as a family with small children. And I think Luke was on the very end, and then it was Zack, and then it was my husband myself, and Ava was on the other side of me, and I could sense and see that there was something happening between our oldest Zack, who was probably eight or nine at the time, and Travis, because they are quite alike in some ways, and they posture, and when one of them begins, it’s kind of like Grace and Vince with the Pooh Bears, like the other one responds. And so I could sense that there was this tension. I could sense that there was this posturing happening. And you’re in church. It’s quiet. You’re on display. That doesn’t bother me as much, but I know it bothers my husband, because he feels like he has an audience. And so I just leaned over and said to him, “Put your hand on his leg.” Meaning, put your hand on Zack’s leg, because he’s trying not to use words, but yet he’s trying to discipline in some way, and I wasn’t sure what had transpired. And he looks at me like, “Whatever.” But he puts his hand on Zack’s leg and kind of pats it gently, and it leaves it there. And Zack leaned into him, lay his head on his shoulder. And then my husband looked at me like, “I don’t like you. Why do you know this?” Because it was so contrary to what felt natural to him. Because I think what he probably wanted to do was say, “Knock it off.” And I don’t even know what was happening, but just that touch and that connection softened everything. But it’s not easy being our husbands, probably for lots of reasons.

 

Kristina  42:46

But there are some perks that go along.

 

Heather  42:50

True. But I think that can be tricky. And I think it can be tricky in any relationship where you maybe don’t agree on those philosophies. 

 

Kristina  43:00

And as I hear you talk about that story with Travis and Zack, I think to myself, the act of Travis putting his hand on Zack’s leg was an act of saying, “We are not opposed. We are together.”

 

Heather  43:16

“Yeah. And I belong to you. You belong to me.”

 

Kristina  43:19

And, wow, what a really powerful.

 

Heather  43:23

Which is who I am all day long. And my husband would be like, “But is that gonna keep them from dot, dot, dot?” And the answer is “Yes, much more than fear or shame, actually.”

 

Kristina  43:38

We are really looking forward to continuing this conversation about discipline. Thank you so much for joining us for gear up adventures in parenthood. I’m Kristina

 

Heather  43:54

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  43:58

Until next time see you on the trails. The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  44:16

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  44:24

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  44:36

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Bonus Episode – Gratitude: A Powerful Parenting Tool

 

Clinical social workers Kristina and Heather discuss the critical role gratitude plays in parenting, specifically in shifting mindsets from victimhood to resilience. They highlight practical strategies like expressing gratitude at dinner, keeping gratitude jars, and using visual reminders. Gratitude is linked to improved mental health, reduced depression and anxiety, and enhanced happiness. They stress the difference between genuine gratitude and toxic positivity, advocating for authentic expression and critical thinking. They share personal stories that illustrate how gratitude can transform negative situations into opportunities for growth. They also discuss modeling gratitude and involving children in giving activities, such as leaving pennies for others to use for a fun activity for kids at a local grocery store chain.

 

The Importance of Gratitude in Parenting

  • Kristina introduces the topic of gratitude in parenting, emphasizing its significance in shifting mindsets from victimhood to resilience.
  • Heather explains that gratitude is not just a “feel-good” concept but an important tool that can make a huge positive impact on mental health and happiness.
  • Kristina highlights the importance of parents modeling gratitude through our daily language and actions.
  • Heather mentions simple practices like expressing gratitude at dinner, keeping gratitude jars, and having visual reminders to instill this mindset in children.

 

Modeling Authentic Gratitude and Avoiding Toxic Positivity

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of authentic gratitude rather than toxic positivity, which does not allow for critical thinking.
  • Heather shares her experience of making gratitude a practice at the dinner table, engaging the family in conversations about what they are grateful for.
  • Kristina emphasizes the need to shift from a victim mentality to a grateful one, which helps in maintaining a positive outlook, even during challenging times.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that gratitude keeps individuals in a more executive state, promoting reason and logic over emotional overwhelm.

 

Some Practices to Foster Gratitude

  • Kristina and Heather discuss concrete practices to foster gratitude, such as keeping a gratitude jar or a visual reminder like a gratitude board.
  • Heather shares her experience of involving children in giving, such as leaving pennies for others to ride a mechanical pony at the grocery store.
  • Kristina talks about a preschool class that painted rocks with positive messages and scattered them to spread joy.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of making gratitude practices visual and intentional to help children understand and practice gratitude.

 

Gratitude in Daily Life and Its Impact

  • Heather and Kristina share personal stories of how they model gratitude in daily life, such as expressing gratitude for patience when running late.
  • Heather talks about the impact of gratitude on brain states, keeping individuals in a more executive state and promoting a calmer, happier life.
  • Kristina shares an example of how gratitude can change the energy in a room, making it more positive and less overwhelming.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of modeling gratitude for children, helping them develop a genuine appreciation for life’s blessings.

 

Gratitude in Challenging Situations

  • Heather shares a story about her son Zack’s car accident and how gratitude helped him shift his perspective from a victim mentality to seeing the opportunity for growth.
  • Kristina shares a personal story about her daughter Grace breaking her arm and how gratitude helped her as a parent shift from a negative outlook to a positive one.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of reframing situations to find something to be grateful for, even in challenging times.
  • They discuss how gratitude helps in maintaining a positive outlook and promoting resilience in both children and adults.

 

Gratitude as a Foundational Value

  • Heather and Kristina talk about gratitude as one of the foundational values they teach their children.
  • They share how gratitude impacts not only the individual but also those around them, creating a positive ripple effect.
  • Heather shares an example of how her children learned to give by leaving pennies for others to ride a mechanical pony at the grocery store.
  • Kristina talks about a preschool class that painted rocks with positive messages and scattered them to spread joy, teaching children to think about others’ happiness.

 

Gratitude in Education and Community

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how gratitude is incorporated into their work with children and families, such as using gratitude trees in classrooms.
  • They share how gratitude practices help children develop a sense of appreciation and connection to their community.
  • Heather talks about the impact of gratitude on mental health and overall well-being, both for children and adults.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of making gratitude practices intentional and visual to help children understand and practice gratitude.

 

Gratitude as a Tool for Developing Resilience

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how gratitude helps in building resilience and promoting a positive outlook in both children and adults.
  • They share personal stories of how gratitude has helped them shift from a victim mentality to a more resilient one.
  • Heather talks about the impact of gratitude on brain states, keeping individuals in a more executive state and promoting a calmer, happier life.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of modeling gratitude for children, helping them develop a genuine appreciation for life’s gifts.

 

Gratitude in Daily Routines and Family Life

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how gratitude can be incorporated into daily routines, such as expressing gratitude at dinner or keeping a gratitude jar.
  • They share examples of how they involve their children in gratitude practices, such as leaving pennies for others to ride a mechanical pony.
  • Heather talks about the impact of gratitude on mental health and overall well-being, both for children and adults.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of making gratitude practices intentional and visual to help children understand and practice gratitude.

 

Gratitude as a Lifelong Practice

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how gratitude is a lifelong practice that can be taught and modeled for children.
  • They share personal stories of how gratitude has impacted their own lives and the lives of their children.
  • Heather talks about the importance of making gratitude practices intentional and visual to help children understand and practice gratitude.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of modeling gratitude for children, helping them develop a genuine appreciation for life’s blessings.

 

 

 

Further Reading:

 

Reference note: 

In Episode 8, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 8: Boundaries and Expectations, Part 2 of 2

 

In this episode Kristina and Heather, clinical social workers, discuss the importance of setting realistic expectations for children, balancing effort with perfectionism, and establishing clear, consistent boundaries. The conversation highlights the benefits of natural consequences over imposed ones and the necessity of following through with consequences. They emphasize the significance of body language, empathy, and offering choices, sharing personal anecdotes about handling a child’s perfectionism and the impact of forgetting items at school. They discuss how important it is to set developmentally appropriate expectations and how important, yet challenging, it can be for parents to be consistent role models.

 

Setting Realistic Expectations for Children

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of setting realistic expectations for children, emphasizing the balance between encouraging effort and not demanding perfection.
  • They highlight the need for clear, consistent boundaries and developmentally appropriate expectations.
  • The conversation includes strategies for establishing these expectations in their homes, such as offering choices and setting good examples.
  • Kristina and Heather stress the importance of following through with consequences and the benefits of natural consequences over imposed ones.

 

Balancing Effort and Perfectionism

  • Heather shares her experience of holding high expectations while also emphasizing the message of: “your best is always good enough.”
  • Kristina talks about dealing with a child who tends towards perfectionism, suggesting a reasonable amount of time and effort before moving on.
  • Heather recounts a story about explaining to her child the reasons behind her drawing skills and the importance of practice.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of determining and growing in the knowledge of who their child is and how to hold expectations appropriately.

 

“…So it’s determining, as a parent, who your child is, and is it the ‘we expect your best,’ or is it the ‘we expect a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable effort,’ because you have the child who whose paper is never done, because they can always edit and rewrite it one more time to make it better.

 

…In our home, we interpreted that to mean that we don’t demand perfection. We expect your best effort, and if that’s what’s produced from your best effort, that’s good enough. Doesn’t have to be perfect. Doesn’t have to be what you saw in your mind. But if you gave your best effort, not asking you to do it seventeen times. We asked for a best effort.”

 

Empathy and Communication in Parenting

  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of empathy in parenting, sharing personal stories of how they handle their children’s emotions and frustrations.
  • They discuss the need for clear communication and setting boundaries, such as not allowing children to play parents against each other.
  • Heather shares a rule they had in their home about not asking the other parent if the first parent said “no.”

 

Handling Interruptions and Setting Boundaries

  • Heather and Kristina discuss strategies for handling interruptions, such as acknowledging the child and giving them a minute to speak.
  • They emphasize the importance of being consistent and clear with boundaries, even when it’s difficult.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of body language and non-verbal cues in communicating with children.

 

Developmentally Appropriate Expectations

  • Kristina and Heather further discuss the importance of having developmentally appropriate expectations for children.
  • They emphasize that children develop at their own pace and that it’s not helpful to compare them to older children.
  • Kristina talks about the importance of being a safe caregiver and not making children feel like they don’t measure up.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of being an ally to their children and apologizing when they behave poorly.

“We also need to have developmentally appropriate expectations, because our kids start real, real little with developing brains that do not have a lot of skill and capacity. And then, as they grow, they gain more skill. Hopefully, because we’ve taught them and they gain more capacity, right? 

And that if a child is exhibiting maladaptive behavior, it is most often because we have set an expectation they are not able to meet. They do not have the skills to meet it. If it’s an expectation that they have previously been able to meet, then we move into being the detective of our home and searching for the “why this child not able to meet this expectation at this time, in this moment?” because there is a reason. If they could do it before, and they can’t do it now.”

 

Setting and Enforcing Boundaries

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of setting clear, intentional boundaries and enforcing them consistently.
  • They talk about the importance of being firm but also reflecting on the boundaries to see if they need to be adjusted.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter wanting to stay up later and how they eventually moved the bedtime boundary.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of being consistent and clear with boundaries, even when it’s difficult.

“…Because we’re only as good as our reliability and our consistency. And that can trip us up, because it can be so tempting to move that fence for lots of different reasons. But our consistency is really what matters here, because that’s what goes back to being clear, and we say ‘clear is kind.’ And clear really is kind. When we can be consistent and our kids know exactly what to expect, it goes so much better.”

 

The Role of Body Language and Non-Verbal Cues

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of body language and non-verbal cues in communicating with children.
  • They emphasize that children are experts at reading facial expressions and body language.
  • Kristina shares a story about a child she worked with who always wanted the blue napkin and how she handled it.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of being aware of their facial expressions and body language to communicate effectively with their children.

“Our faces and our reactions…they know by looking at us if we’re angry, if we’re frustrated, there doesn’t have to be any words coming out, and they will know…children have only had that to rely on with their primary caregivers since they were born, before they were verbal. So they are experts at knowing what gets us going, what makes us angry, what causes us to react…We just have to remain, as parents, so aware of our facial expressions and our body language, because that is 90% of communication to kids.”

Offering Choices and Setting Good Examples

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of offering choices to children and setting good examples.
  • They talk about the importance of being consistent and clear with boundaries and offering choices within those boundaries.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of being consistent and clear with boundaries, even when it’s difficult.

 

Handling Consequences and Natural Consequences

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of following through with consequences, whether natural or logical.
  • They talk about the importance of being consistent and clear with consequences and the benefits of natural consequences.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter writing on her body with ink and how she handled it.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of being consistent and clear with consequences, even when it’s difficult.

“You get what you get and you don’t throw a fit.” They do throw a fit. They do, when they don’t get what they want. And we have a choice to either say, “Fine, I’m going to go find the blue napkin,” or I’m going to say to this other child, “Is it okay if I take that blue napkin and give it to the child who demands the blue napkin?” 

Or do I hold the boundary of “you get what you get, and you don’t throw a fit,” and say, “I know you got the orange napkin. You were really hoping for the blue napkin. Today you have the orange. Oh I hear you. Wow. You are really upset about that. Yeah, you really hoped for the blue napkin today you have the orange and I know you can do it.” I know you can do it. 

Right? Rinse and repeat. Empathy and then the reminder that you can do it: “You’ve got this.” And allowing them to move through that upset to the point where they can say, “Okay, well, I guess if I want a snack..I mean, I’m using the orange napkin.” But, boy, is it tempting to just be, like, “I’m just gonna get that blue napkin, because the screaming needs to end.”

 

Building Problem-Solving Skills in Children

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of building problem-solving skills in children.
  • They talk about the importance of allowing children to develop their own problem-solving skills and not rescuing them every time.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter forgetting things and how they established a system to help her remember.

“So my recommendation for parents…the first time your child forgets their whatever – science project, water bottle, headphones, lunch, money – whatever it might be, that the first time, if at all possible, you bring the item to them. And that is then when you establish the boundary of “You need to have what you need to have to leave the house in the morning. I will not be making runs to bring you things.” 

Now, establishing the boundary is not enough. You also have to work with your child to come up with a system that is going to help them until they build the skill to remember those things on their own. What is the double-checking system that you have everything you need before you leave the door? Is it a list that we make the night before and we tape to the door?..Do we have a little dry erase board?…So you have that checklist before you leave the home of the items that you need. And each day, especially in the beginning, you do that checklist with your child, if that’s what’s going to work for them. 

It could also be that you prepare those items with your child that need to go with you in an area. They’re all here. We’re not searching for them in the morning. We don’t have to remember that. Today’s the day I need to bring my gym shoes, because we already have your gym shoes sitting by your things to leave.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Note: 

In this episode, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

Natural Start Alliance 

Children & Nature Network

National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC)

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 8: Boundaries and Expectations, Part 2 of 2

Kristina  00:00

In this episode, we continue our conversation about boundaries and expectations, focusing on the importance of setting realistic expectations for our children. 

 

Heather  00:11

We explore finding the balance between encouraging effort and not demanding perfection, especially for children with perfectionistic tendencies.

 

Kristina  00:19

We talk about setting clear, consistent boundaries, and the importance of having developmentally appropriate expectations. We’ll share some ways we establish these for our kids in our homes.

 

Heather  00:30

We also discuss the impact of body language and non-verbal cues on children, the importance of empathy, offering choices and setting good examples. 

 

Kristina  00:40

We wrap up by reminding ourselves how important it is to follow through with consequences and the benefits of natural consequences over imposed ones. Easier said than done. Right?

 

Heather  00:50

Absolutely. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  01:00

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma,

 

Heather  01:13

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  01:35

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  01:41

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  01:41

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  01:47

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  01:59

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives. 

 

Heather  02:08

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. So let’s talk about expectations. I feel like in our home, we held pretty high expectations. It was also our value that your best was always good enough, right? But we expected your best. And I think it’s tricky as kids grow too sometimes you know you want your expectations to be high enough that they have to work a bit. They have to have some grit. We’re trying to build resilience. We want them to be problem solvers, at least we did in our home, right? We want them to not give up so quickly. We want them to work enough at it, but also still be successful, because, like we said, if children can’t be good at succeeding, they can get tempted to be good at failing. So how do you feel? In your home you held those expectations to a standard.

 

Kristina  03:18

I love “your best is always good enough.” If you have a child who tends to be perfectionistic, I come at that a little differently. So that was my Grace. Things were never the way that she envisioned them to be, right? Her drawings never turned out the way she had envisioned them. 

 

Heather  03:39

What she was going for, when they can’t get out their hand what they see in their mind, I feel like that’s a whole training ground, right? There it is.

 

Kristina  03:47

And so for Grace, for whom that perfectionism is part of who she is, it’s also part of my nurturing, which I need to own, which comes out of my own perfectionism. But for Grace, I would often say, “Reasonable amount of time. Reasonable effort. And then we move on.” So it wasn’t a “I have to crumple up the paper. I have to do it over and over and over and over and over and over and over, because it’s not looking the way I want it to look, and I’m getting so frustrated about it, right?”

 

Heather  04:19

Because that’s wanting to achieve perfection. Yes, whatever she saw in her mind. Yep, I remember Ava verbalizing to me, ‘Why can you draw so good? And I’m not good at it at all?” I’m like, ‘Sweetheart. I am at that time, I was like, 40, so I’m like, sweetheart. I am, like, way older than you. My hand is fully developed. It might have arthritis. I got all the bones I need in my hand, like it’s all developed. You’re just this little person who’s just getting there, like you are just perfecting how to hold this pencil.” But she wanted to be able to draw. Now, as a parent, did I dumb down my drawing? No, I just explained to her the why behind it. “You’re going to get there. And in fact, practice is going to make you better. And if you just chuck the colored pencil across the room, that doesn’t get us better, right? Maybe it feels good in the moment, but I do see that you’re frustrated.”

 

Kristina  05:12

So what can we do when we feel frustrated? That’s again, this teaching of how do you cope? How do you move through that? So it’s determining, as a parent, who your child is, and is it the “we expect your best,” or is it the “we expect a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable effort,” because you have the child who whose paper is never done, because they can always edit and rewrite it one more time to make it better.

 

Heather  05:44

In our home, we interpreted that to be that we don’t demand perfection. We expect your best effort, and if that’s what’s produced from your best effort, that’s good enough. Doesn’t have to be perfect. Doesn’t have to be what you saw in your mind. But if you gave your best effort, not asking you to do it seventeen times. We asked for a best effort. What they do with it in the midst of it is the coachable stuff, yes.

 

Kristina  06:11

So really, again, you’re on that quest of determining and growing in the knowledge of who your child is and how to hold that expectation in an appropriate place where they have the skills to meet the expectation. Each child develops at their own pace, right? So it’s not helpful to say to a child, “Oh, any twelve year old can do that. I mean, for crying out loud, you’re twelve.” That helps no one. That brings shame. It’s not taking a look to see does this child have the skills to meet this expectation?

 

Heather  06:47

It erodes their self esteem and confidence in themselves. It becomes their inner voice.

 

Kristina  06:52

And now all of a sudden, you’re not their safe caregiver that they’re attached to. It’s somebody who’s actually on the other side of the table, right? You’re not good enough. You do not measure up. There’s something wrong. 

 

Heather  07:05

With an adversary versus ally relationship, we always want to be their ally, right?

 

Kristina  07:09

And when we’re not, we need to do everything we can to get back to that side of the table. Same team. And own what we’ve done that took us to the other side, right? I apologize a lot to my daughter. And because she is gracious and loving, she will often say, “Mommy, it’s okay, it’s okay, it’s fine.” And she, even as a pre -teen and young teenager, said things like, “Oh, Mommy, you were tired. You were frustrated.” I love the empathy. The Empathy is beautiful. She’s very empathetic. But it doesn’t mean then, if I’ve behaved poorly, that that’s just okay, right? So, using those same skills that we were talking about in helping our child express “I didn’t like it when you…”, I can say “I didn’t like it when I spoke this way to you.  It didn’t feel good to me. I imagine it didn’t feel good to you. How can I make that better? Next time I will” and modeling the same thing we’re asking our children to do in their interactions with others. And that we ask them to do that.

 

Heather  08:14

Yeah, right. When they speak poorly to us, we’re going to go through that same process with them and walk them through that. As our kids grew, one of our primary rules, because we had three of them, was if you asked Mom or Dad anything, a request “Could so and so, come over?” and you didn’t get the answer you wanted, you could not then go ask the other parent. That was a big one for us. And that was a real hard boundary that we set. And if they crossed that boundary and did that and went to the other parent, it was like mandatory family meeting. Butts in seats. We’re gonna talk this through.

 

Kristina  09:00

They are not going to play us against each other.

 

Heather  09:03

No, and that goes back to your foundations again. Of this needs to be a place where we can trust each other that’s built in honesty. And our rule is, if you ask mom and she doesn’t give you the answer, you don’t get to run on over to dad and try again. Nope.

 

Kristina  09:23

And I mean, they ask us questions a thousand times a day, right? So it’s not always reasonable to be able to say, “Let me ask whomever my wife, let me ask my partner. Let me ask somebody else about that before I give the answer.” Because oftentimes, as parents, we don’t have the whole story, right? It’ll be like, oh, here come, you know, Vince and Grace trucking into the kitchen, and they’re headed out to get donuts in the morning. And there was actually a task that I had given earth that needed to be completed before she could do those things. But he didn’t know that, and she thought, I have struggled here. That’s right, we’re going for a donut to Donutville.  Like, it doesn’t get better than that right? So it’s also when you can check in or saying, you know, Vince, saying, “Oh, I didn’t realize you had to get that done first. First, complete the task, then we can go for donuts.” 

 

Heather  10:13

And it’s also, like, it just gets busy. I’m in the house. I’m doing things. It’s a Saturday. There are kids ramming around everywhere. He’s in the garage or doing lawn work. He’s outside, doing stuff out there. The kids want to have more kids over, and maybe I’m at my brink, and I don’t want that, but my husband doesn’t realize that. So the kids are like, “Ooh, Dad’s outside. He’ll monitor us. I’ll ask him instead. Mom said ‘no,’ but I’ll go ask him.” Nope. Not how it works, and they needed to be taught like that does erode our relationship. That is not what we want. We want to have a good marriage. We want to always be your parents. We want to be a family forever. And that puts a crack in our foundation. 

 

Kristina  10:57

That behavior right there? You asked. I answered. It is done. Yep,

 

Heather  11:01

Yep. Exactly. Another thing – and this goes back to how old is the child? Is it a reasonable ask? And for how long when you’re in a conversation, maybe after a soccer game or a ball game or whatever, and the adults are gathering and we’re in a conversation, and the child comes up and wants to interrupt. Interrupting was one of those things that I wanted to teach my children not to do. I wanted them to wait and then move in appropriately when the time was correct. But if you’re in a group of people, it can be really hard for them. So our rule was, when they were little, if they just came up and they put their hand on my leg or my arm that signaled that they had something that they needed to say to me, and what I would do in that moment is turn to them, acknowledge them, and give them the one minute, like just one minute, hold up one finger.

 

Kristina  11:53

And that needs to be a minute, not, well, that’s sometimes referred to as a “mother’s minute,” which can be twenty minutes long.

 

Heather  11:59

Because that’s an unreasonable expectation. And it erodes their trust in you. Because if you tell them “one minute,” then at the very least you need to say just “one second, folks. Here, you’ve been very patient. Thank you for waiting so well. What can I help you with?” and acknowledge that, and then who knows what it might be? “Okay, I hear you. We’re gonna let me finish up here. I’ll be five minutes, and then we’ll dot, dot, dot…” whatever it might be. But you need to at least acknowledge and like you said, it can’t be twenty minutes. Because no four year old in the history of the world can wait twenty minutes without interrupting. They just can’t do it. Probably even a six or eight year old can’t do that for twenty minutes. 

 

Kristina  12:51

For crying out loud, I can’t do that for twenty minutes. When there’s something I’m really needing to do or really, really wanting to do, it’s hard to be patient like that.

 

Heather  12:59

So let’s recap boundaries and expectations. We want to have clear rules and expectations that are rooted in our family values and what we want to teach

 

Kristina  13:13

Yes. We want there to be few but important, very intentional boundaries, fences that we have erected, they can’t be everywhere, but we need to choose them carefully based on those values, and then we need to say our expectations out loud. What do we expect? What happens if that boundary is breached? Correct?

 

Heather  13:38

We also need to have developmentally appropriate expectations, because our kids start real, real little with developing brains that have not a lot of skill and capacity. And then, as they grow, they gain more skill. Hopefully, because we’ve taught them and they gain more capacity, right?

 

Kristina  14:01

And that if a child is exhibiting maladaptive behavior, it is most often because we have set an expectation they are not able to meet. They do not have the skills to meet it. If it’s an expectation that they have previously been able to meet, then we move into being the detective of our home and searching for the “why this child not able to meet this expectation at this time, in this moment?” because there is a reason. If they could do it before, and they can’t do it now. And so it’s striking what we think as a parent, using a good sound judgment, is the perfect balance of challenging them enough and stretching them enough, but still allowing them to be successful. Yes. And building the skill. Every interaction in a day is an opportunity to either model or build skill. Now I’d be exhausted if I took every opportunity in the day to do those things, but there are plenty, and our children need us to model and teach them the skills to be able to manage life when they don’t get their way, when they’re met with frustration, when they’re disappointed, when they’re not sure how to communicate, when they don’t yet have the pause. 

 

Heather  15:25

And let’s talk about being firm and consistent, because we’re only as good as our reliability and our consistency. And that can trip us up, because it can be so tempting to move that fence for lots of different reasons, lots of reasons, but our consistency is really what matters here, because that’s what goes back to being clear. And we say ‘clear is kind.’ And clear really is kind when we can be consistent and our kids know exactly what to expect, it goes so much better.

 

Kristina  16:03

Yeah. And it’s important that if a child is kicking the fence right? We don’t let it go over. But it may give us pause to reflect on the boundary. It may be: it’s time for that boundary to move. I remember this with my daughter with bedtime. She had the same bedtime for a long time, and then she started kicking the fence right like “I want to stay up later. Everybody gets to stay up later. I’m not tired yet.” Kick, kick, kick, kick. And we held firm: “This is your bedtime. This is when you’re headed up. I can’t tell you when you’re going to fall asleep, but I can tell you when we’re headed up to bed.” So after she kicked the fence a number of times, it was time for her father and I to sit down and say, “Hmm, maybe it is time to move that fence.” And so then to be able to say to her, “We’ve decided that now at this age, this will be the new bedtime,” and that’s keeping it developmentally appropriate and not responding to the kick in the moment, but reflecting on the boundary.

 

Heather  17:01

That’s a really important distinguishing factor. What we say matters. How we say it. It also really matters our body language. I don’t remember the exact statistic, but what kids, especially young children, interpret first, is not our words, it’s how our face looks. It’s how our body is moving. They assess all of that.

 

Kristina  17:27

Children have been studying our faces their whole lives. That’s how they initially began to understand, am I safe? Am I not safe? Are my needs going to be met? Are they not before they ever have language.

 

Heather  17:41

Our faces and our reactions like impulse, action, reaction, right? So they know by looking at us if we’re angry, if we’re frustrated, there doesn’t have to be any words coming out, and they will know we have this with co-workers. We have this as adults with one another. It’s very true, but children have only had that to rely on with their primary caregivers since they were born, since they were born before they were verbal. So they are experts at knowing what gets us going, what makes us angry, what causes us to react, and so it’s really important when we’re holding those consistent boundaries, and when we are setting up and clearly communicating the rules and expectations that how we say things is so important to their interpretation of the what we just have to remain as parents, so aware of our facial expressions in our body language, because that is 90% of communication to kids. Am I foe, or am I friend?

 

Kristina  18:59

Am I ally? Am I adversary? Am I here to help, or am I here to punish? 

 

Heather  19:04

And we notice this so much in the setting that we work in, because we’re not primary caregivers, right? And so we have to very quickly move into what could be an escalated situation and bring the calm down and immediately have that child trust us, right? To be able to approach them. And what that looks like for us is getting real low, reall low, letting our face soften very, very much and be able to say to them, “I’m here to help” and pause if something has happened

 

Kristina  19:40

Right. In a low tone of voice, not in a “Hey, hey, hey, what’s happening here?” That doesn’t help the children want to be helped by you.

 

Heather  19:49

It doesn’t mean there aren’t times that we don’t have to raise our voice and say, “Stop your feet” because we don’t want them to go near the pond or whatever it might be. For safety reasons, we have to do those things too, but in those moments where we’re trying to communicate calm and get the child to quickly connect with us, all of that body language is so important, really important. And what we know is, with kids, it’s not just what we say, it’s how we say it. It’s not our words that mean more. It’s our actions. Those are all so important to kids. Also proposing alternatives and offering choices to kids when they can be really upset about something in the moment. And we’re holding a boundary, but if we can still, within that boundary, we’re going to the car. “Would you like to hold my hand? Or would you like to walk by my side?” “Would you like me to carry you? Would you like to hold my hand?” Yeah, choices state what’s happening, but then we offer a choice because it offers them an option to be in charge. 

 

Kristina  20:58

Goes back to what we were talking about in a previous episode where we talked about empathy, expectation, choice. “I know you’d really like to stay at the pool longer. We’ve had so much fun. It’s time to go. You may hold my hand, or you may carry the bag,” or whatever the choice is that I’m willing to offer as we go to the car.

 

Heather  21:20

I said that incorrectly, it offers them initiative is what it offers them, the opportunity to grow that skill of initiative, right? And to say what’s best for them. That’s another piece that I love, “What’s best for you you?” When you give a choice, that’s a powerful thing for kids to be like, “Oh, what is best for me?” It’s really good reflection thing for them. I like those words. I use them a lot at work, you give option A and you give option B. “What’s best for you?”

 

Kristina  21:52

Yeah, it’s another opportunity to have a little pause. 

 

Heather  21:56

The final thing, perhaps the most difficult: set a good example. As parents, we have to practice what we preach. 

 

Kristina  22:07

There’s a child that I worked with some time ago, and this is not unique to this particular child. This is something that we all experience. This child loved the color blue and always wanted the blue napkin when we were getting ready to have a meal or a snack. Well, the napkins were all different colors, but this child wanted the blue, always the blue. And I don’t know if you have done this, Heather. I have done this, and it was from years working at an elementary school where we would say, “You get what you get and you don’t throw a fit.” Yep, exactly. “You get what you get and you don’t throw a fit.” They do throw a fit. They do when they don’t get what they want. And we have a choice to either say, “Fine, I’m going to go find the blue napkin,” or I’m going to say to this other child, “Is it okay if I take that blue napkin and give it to the child who demands the blue napkin?” Or do I hold the boundary of you get what you get, and you don’t throw off it, and saying, “I know you got the orange napkin. You were really hoping for the blue napkin. Today you have the orange.” 

 

Heather  23:12

“Oh I hear you. Wow. You are really upset about that. Yeah, you really hoped for the blue napkin today you have the orange and I know you can do it.” I know you can do it, right? Rinse and repeat, empathy and then the reminder that you can do it: “You’ve got this.” And allowing them to move through that upset to the point where they can say, “Okay, well, I guess if I want a snack, I mean, I’m using the orange napkin.” But, boy, is it tempting to just be, like, “ I’m just gonna get that blue napkin, because the screaming needs to end.” 

 

Heather  23:50

It’s like when we’re in the store and there’s a screaming child and it’s ours, and they see all the food, and it’s like, I am just gonna open this box of granola bars and put it in your face, like, eat it. Just make the crying stop. And then I know I’m gonna go to the store the next time, and I am going to be punished forever with the one granola bar that I let them put in their face hole. 

 

Kristina  24:30

Yep, in that moment, yep, because we ought to draw that back. Not just the granola bar in the face hole. It’s also when we say “Here. Just have my phone. Yes, here. Just take my phone because I need you to stop the screaming.” We need to get this task completed, and that’s my solution. Phone for you, quiet for me. Yay. We can move through the rest of our shopping.

 

Heather  24:50

In that moment, you just think, “Oh,

 

Kristina  24:53

Thank you.”

 

Heather  24:56

And then later we’re like, “Oh,damn it.”

 

Kristina  24:57

Yes. I did that to myself.  I did that.

 

Heather  25:02

Yeah. In a weak moment. We all have them, we all do and it will happen, and we can draw it back. But it takes more work. The other thing that I want to talk about is following through with consequences is so important. Yeah, natural or logical? We know natural consequences are the better consequences. They’re the ones that just you didn’t wear your coat. No, you’re gonna get cold, right? You don’t want your mittens. Your hands are cold. And, I mean, those are no big deals. We navigate that all the time at school. It’s like, you just put your mittens on, then we’re not gonna get into these bitter battles over coats and mittens, because kids will very quickly learn, right? Oh, natural consequence. Now, my body’s cold, my hands are cold, whatever.

 

Kristina  25:52

So I was raised that we weren’t allowed to write on ourselves with marker or with pen or things like that. I think there was some belief that I had instilled in me that it was going to poison my blood, or something like, if I used pen to write on my hand. It was just something that was not acceptable in my family.

 

Heather  26:11

Growing up, we were always told ink was going to poison us, yeah.,

 

Kristina  26:15

Right.

 

Heather  26:16

It was an 80s thing. 

 

Kristina  26:18

Must have been 70s thing. I mean, it did. It started early. But that was kind of an ingrained belief I’d never challenged before. So my daughter started drawing on her hands and on her arms and on her legs, lots of creativity happening on her extremities. And I didn’t like it, so I said to her, “You are not allowed to write on your body with ink or with markers,” and I may have even said it’s not safe. I don’t know if maybe I cause I did not like that. And maybe somewhere deep in my brain, I actually thought it would harm her. So she wasn’t old enough to question that. She was maybe in second or third grade. And nope, she came home again and she had written all over herself. And I said, “Well, that’s it. You lose tech time.” She said to me, second or third grader, she says, “Mom, that doesn’t make any sense. Tech time has nothing to do with writing on my skin. How about you don’t let me use pens anymore. Yeah, that is more logical, isn’t it?”But the tech time is going to hurt more, and how can I possibly keep all of the pens away from my child? Yeah, it wasn’t a great consequence, and it was humbling to have my little one call me out on it.

 

Heather  27:47

Well, I think it’s an indicator that probably your consequences had been more solid up to that point.

 

Kristina  27:56

She’s like, “Those don’t even connect, Mom. Yeah, like up your game, woman.”

 

Heather  28:03

Then later, she’s like, “It’s okay, mom, your consequence sucked, but you were tired.”

 

Kristina  28:10

She is my child. Oozing empathy. Yep.

 

Heather  28:14

This is not easy. And this gets harder giving consequences. Yes, I think it gets harder when they get older, because I don’t know why. To be honest, I don’t know why. Maybe it’s just always hard for me. I think it was harder as my kids got older. Maybe it’s just what I remember best, but I distinctly remember that Zack was invited to go away with a friend for a weekend up north. He is an avid outdoorsman. He loves to hunt, fish, ride ATVs, all of it. And he was taking his quad. They were taking other machines, and they were going to go for this weekend. A family that we really love and spent a lot of time with and had their son over as well frequently, and I don’t even remember. This is the thing. I don’t even remember what he did. I have no// do you have any records?

 

Kristina  29:11

I know I don’t.

 

Heather  29:12

All I know was that we had a conversation, and whatever he had done, the consequence was he couldn’t go, I’m guessing, knowing who Zack is, and his disdain for school and all things school work related, was that he probably didn’t finish something by a deadline, and that was just a requirement. I’m not asking you to love it, but, kid, we have got to get you through school. And you have to do some level of work. Yes, we expect your best, a good effort. I don’t think we always got his best, because we didn’t demand A’s. Like, if he got a C, I was like, winning, and that was fine. And so I think it’s probably he didn’t meet a deadline.

 

Kristina  30:04

And you had stated the consequence. 

 

Heather  30:07

It had been voiced previously, because I wouldn’t have gone to that unless I had previously stated it. So he made the choice to not do whatever it was, or to do whatever he wasn’t supposed to I’m not sure, because I don’t remember the exact scenario. All that I remember is sitting with him on his bed and saying, “You know that we cannot allow you to go. And he was like “Mom, but-“ and there was this upset. And I said, “I know. I know, honey. This is not easy for me. Do you think that I want to see you hurt and suffer and be miserable because you can’t do this?” No. “Yeah. So no, I do feel awful. I wanted you to go, right? You would love that. Of course, I want you to go and experience that and have all of that fun. I didn’t do this to you. Who did this to you?” I did. And those are the hard truths that we have to help them process through well, and “I did not do this to you, son.” Yes. “Who did this to you?” I did.

 

Kristina  31:25

I remember you calling me in the midst of that situation. 

 

Heather  31:30

Well, it was over. I had done it, and he knew he wasn’t going and he took it. This is some of the power in it. He took it so beautifully. It almost made me feel guilty. Yes, because he was able to say,” I did do this.” Yep, of course, you have to enforce it. And I think we talked about this is a consequence of your actions. You don’t get to be around here this weekend and be pissy and moody and unkind and angry to the people in this house and mope around. And he was like, “I will not” and you’re gonna get whatever it was done and you’re gonna do it, yeah, because it’s the right thing to do.” I know. And he just took it so beautifully that I was like, “Oh, he’s such a good kid. Should I let him go?

 

Kristina  32:27

No. No, you called me just like that, saying, “But he’s, he’s taken responsibility for it. He’s owned it. I mean, it really would be so great if he could go up north. He was really looking forward to it. It’s a great opportunity.” 

 

Heather  32:39

And I remember saying, “He’s gonna have so much fun, and I know I can’t let him go. And you were like, “You can’t let him go.” And I was like, I know, just need to say it again.

 

Kristina  32:48

This is one of those times when you need to be able to call somebody in your village who can say, “I stand with you in holding this boundary. You’re doing the right thing.”

 

Heather  32:56

You’re doing the right thing is not easy. Nope. But it’s the lesson they need to learn. But I am here supporting you as you hold that boundary that kid is better off today as a twenty year old, because we did that work back then, right? Not easy. More responsible. A better problem solver. Better at getting his crap done

 

Kristina  33:21

All of it. And better at owning his own choices, right? “I’m not gonna blame you because of something that I chose.”

 

Heather  33:29

And he didn’t put himself in a victim place, which I think as a parent, was what I celebrated so much. Make himself a victim. He owned it, which I was like, yes, but then I almost was willing to undo it all right? And I needed to call and say, we can’t. I can’t. Nope, you can’t. Don’t let me. Don’t let me. Nope.

 

Kristina  33:54

That is a trap we fall into easily.

 

Heather  34:00

This is middle school. Real life.

 

Kristina  34:03

Holy crap. And if you have a child like mine, it was before middle school, during middle school and after middle school, because she’s always thinking about what’s ahead, very unaware of what’s in her present or what’s in her past. And so she forgets things a lot. 

 

Heather  34:19

And my oldest also attention and focus just took longer to grow and develop. And he needed all of those very real life experiences we always said “He’s gonna have to try it and feel the consequence of it before he gets it,” because it’s just how he learned. So going off to middle school was a real trick for him. It just requires more stuff, more independence, but also your water bottle, you have to have all of your different classes organized. He was not great at organizing that stuff. It was like, oh, the paper for history could be in the English folder, and the paper for math could be in the history folder. And undoubtedly, there were seventeen of them crumpled at the bottom underneath the folders. And where is my calculator, and where is this and where is that? And so I had to have the saying that we just lived into and became kind of our mantra as all of our kids moved through this phase, and that saying was “your lack of planning does not cause an emergency on my part.” That maybe sounds cruel. Oh, it’s the cold hard truth, though. It is the cold hard truth, and it’s the mantra that I needed in my head for my own reminder, because I would have been running here, there and everywhere to get this kid what he needed.

 

Kristina  36:04

But it happens for so many of us, right? Our child has invested time and energy and their soul into a project. Maybe it’s a poster they had to make, or maybe it’s something that they need for a presentation, or it could be anything the science fair when they’ve invested and worked on something and then they forget it.

 

Heather  36:30

Yes. And here’s the thing that I want everybody to think about: if this is your child, you must let them develop the skills to get themselves out of these situations, because it is who they are. And my son had to do that, and he is wildly charming. Something I say in my house a lot is, don’t you dare use your smolder on your mother. Smolders don’t work on mothers. No, they don’t. I grew you in my body, your smolder is rendered ineffective. But you know what? It’s very common for children with dyslexia and ADHD, they develop wicked good people skills because they have to, right? Because they do so many of those types of just “I don’t have this” or “I’m not prepared for this” up that they have to get charming, they have to be witty, they have to be likable, or they would not make it through school. And that was my son.

 

Kristina  37:35

So my recommendation for parents, because so many of us experience this is the first time your child forgets their whatever science project, water bottle, headphones, lunch, money, whatever it might be that the first time, if at all possible, you bring the item to them. And that is then when you establish the boundary of “you need to have what you need to have to leave the house in the morning. I will not be making runs to bring you things.” Now, establishing the boundary is not enough. You also have to work with your child to come up with a system that is going to help them until they build the skill to remember those things on their own. What is the double-checking system that you have everything you need before you leave the door? Is it a list that we make the night before and we tape to the door, nice little visual that we check it off before we leave? Do we have a little dry erase board? We used lots of dry erase boards with Grace growing up, and still do to some extent. There’s a little dry erase board that’s right by the door that we will be heading out of, and it lists the things we need so like at our preschools, before we leave our playscapes with the children to go on a hike, we have a hike checklist where we say, Does every teacher have their walkie talkie? Yes. Check, do we have the first aid kit? Check. Do I have my backpack as the teacher? Check. So you have that checklist before you leave the home of the items that you need. And each day, especially in the beginning, you do that checklist with your child, if that’s what’s going to work for them. It could also be that you prepare those items with your child that need to go with you in an area. They’re all here. We’re not searching for them in the morning. We don’t have to remember that. Today’s the day I need to bring my gym shoes, because we already have your gym shoes sitting by your things to leave.

 

Heather  39:50

So really, it’s about having processes in place that work for you and your child and your family, and it’s about not rescuing them. Yeah. Every time and allowing them to develop their problem-solving skills. I used to say to my kids, “You get one time,” preventatively, like, “I’ll bring something to school one time. You get to decide what it is. If it’s that homework that’s due, if it’s that permission slip, if it’s your lunch, whatever, but you better choose carefully what that one thing is, because I’m going to do it one time.”

 

Kristina  40:22

You can bet that the homework that they didn’t bring in is not what they’re going to know one time.

 

Heather  40:27

It was somebody’s homework, and I forget what the consequence was if that didn’t get turned in, but there was a domino effect, and so they used it wisely. But I never got called for lunches. I never got I guess they can survive without food and water, or they charmed somebody for some others, but I did get called once for homework,

 

Kristina  40:47

And if your child continues to call home because they continue to forget things, it just means that you need to come up with a different system, that whatever the system you came up with is not sufficient. It’s not working. And doing that work with the child even better.

 

Heather  41:04

And apparently this happens a lot. I remember emails, and I remember the one time I brought that stuff in, there was like a drop off zone for, like, lunches and water bottles. And I’m thinking, “Oh, I might be a cold hearted human.”

 

Kristina  41:23

Yeah so you saw that this is happening on the regular for all of us, that our children are forgetting things, and that too often we feel that we need to rescue them. What will they do if they don’t have their lunch?

 

Heather  41:36

What will they do? Come home hungry? Not the worst thing. Eat a better dinner.

 

Kristina  41:43

Yeah, not the worst thing, no.

 

Heather  41:44

And that’s kind of I’ve been this parent who annoyingly will sometimes say, “What’s the worst that could happen?” What’s the worst that could happen? Because we have to check ourselves on that. If they don’t have their lunch, what’s the worst that could happen? They come home hungry. They come home a little dehydrated. If they don’t have their water, well, there are  drinking fountains there.

 

Kristina  42:08

I mean, yep. Get yourself a drink if you are thirsty. But maybe you won’t forget it tomorrow. Or maybe if remembering things is a challenge for you, we’ll come up with a difference.

 

Heather  42:20

Certainly if we don’t stretch them to do better, they won’t. And that’s the piece of the scaffolded skill building we want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. And I knew that if I rescued it wasn’t going to end well for my son, and that he had to be able to get to a point where he could figure it out, and then he got to be such a good problem solver.

 

Kristina  42:53

Paying attention to your own child’s skill development. What’s the trajectory? What’s the timeline? Grace, when she was in fifth grade, her teaching team just decided they were going to have these milk crates located outside the Spanish room, where if they found any of Grace’s things, they just put them in the milk crates, and then it was Grace’s responsibility to take them from the milk crates and get them either to her locker or get them home, because at that point, she did not yet have the ability to keep track of all of the things. Well, I can tell you, we don’t have milk crates anymore. She’s able to keep track of her things at school. She has built those skills. But at the time when you think, Oh for crying out loud, a fourth grader, never gonna get there. We’re never going to get there. And a fifth grader should be able to hang on to these things to say, “No, Grace isn’t able to do that yet. We’re growing her ability to do it, but she can’t do it yet, and that’s okay.” 

 

Heather  43:57

Yeah, it is okay. And it’s part of the growing. So setting boundaries for our children is one of the most important aspects of parenting. So much goes into it and so much comes out of it.

 

Kristina  44:14

It’s really setting them up for success as they experience the ability to meet expectations to manage the disappointment and the frustration when they don’t. Knowing their limits and having that be predictable sets them up to feel safe and secure.

 

Heather  44:33

And to be able to go on and manage in the real world alongside of others.

 

Kristina  44:42

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  44:48

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until

 

Kristina  44:53

Until next time 

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  45:10

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan. 

 

Kristina  45:18

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects. 

 

Heather  45:30

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 7: Boundaries and Expectations, Part 1 of 2

Clinical social workers and moms Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of setting clear boundaries with children to promote their success and family well-being. 

They emphasize that boundaries should be consistent and not overly rigid, as this helps children understand acceptable behaviors and values. 

They also highlight the need for parents to communicate expectations clearly and consistently, as our kids are not mind-readers. 

The conversation also covers handling sibling conflicts, teaching children to respect boundaries, and the significance of emotional safety. 

They stress that boundaries should evolve as children grow, focusing on teaching values and nurturing their development.

Setting the Stage for Boundaries and Expectations

  • Kristina explains the focus on setting up boundaries and expectations to promote children’s success and family well-being.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of consistently enforcing boundaries without being overly rigid or confusing.
  • They emphasize that boundaries are not just restrictions but tools for teaching skills and reinforcing values.

 

The Importance of Clear Boundaries

  • Heather discusses the significance of clear boundaries in teaching children acceptable behaviors and reinforcing family values.
  • They discuss how boundaries are essential for teaching children what is acceptable and not acceptable in various settings, such as the grocery store, restaurant, and church.
  • Heather encourages the understanding that boundaries are a vehicle for teaching children values and foundations, rather than a means of achieving obedience.
  • Kristina and Heather agree that clear expectations and boundaries are crucial for children’s success and the overall joy of parenting.

 

Challenges of Setting and Enforcing Boundaries

  • Kristina shares her personal struggle with setting boundaries, often giving in to her child’s requests for “just one more.”
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of maintaining boundaries consistently to avoid confusion for children.
  • They highlight that children will challenge boundaries as part of their developmental process, seeking more autonomy and independence.
  • Kristina emphasizes that parents need to decide where to set boundaries and how to maintain them, ensuring that boundaries do not become punishments.

 

Consistency and Repetition in Enforcing Boundaries

  • Heather explains that children need to see boundaries held consistently to understand that they do not move.
  • Kristina shares an example of her own inconsistency in enforcing tech time boundaries, leading to confusion for her child.
  • The hosts discuss the importance of setting boundaries ahead of time to avoid responding to children’s requests in the moment.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that clear, consistent boundaries help children learn and feel safe, leading to more cooperative behavior.

 

Teaching Children to Respect Boundaries

  • Heather shares an example of setting a boundary at a water slide to prevent her child from being sucked into the vortex.
  • The hosts discuss the importance of teaching children to respect boundaries through repetition and practice.
  • Kristina emphasizes that boundaries should not be moved in response to children’s requests, as this sends a confusing message.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that clear, consistent boundaries help children learn to respect and follow rules.

 

Handling Sibling Conflicts and Emotional Safety

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how to handle conflicts between siblings, emphasizing the importance of emotional safety.
  • The hosts share an example of a conflict between their daughters, where Heather intentionally turned her back to the perpetrator to avoid giving attention to negative behavior.
  • Kristina explains the importance of focusing on the victim and teaching the perpetrator appropriate behavior.
  • The hosts emphasize that boundaries should protect children from physical harm, property damage, and emotional harm caused by other children.

 

Teaching Children to Communicate Their Needs

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of teaching children to communicate their needs and desires appropriately.
  • The hosts share examples of how to teach children to ask for what they want instead of taking it or throwing tantrums.
  • Kristina emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries that are developmentally appropriate and teach children valuable skills.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that clear, consistent boundaries help children learn to communicate effectively and respect others.

 

Adapting Boundaries as Children Grow

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how boundaries need to adapt as children grow and become more capable.
  • The hosts emphasize that boundaries should teach children values and help them grow into responsible individuals.
  • Heather explains that boundaries are a way for parents to nurture their children and help them become the people they want to see them be.
    • Kristina and Heather agree that clear, consistent boundaries are essential for raising happy, healthy children.

 

Key Takeaways:

  •       We want to establish clear boundaries and expectations with children proactively, not just in response to their behavior.
  •       We want to consistently enforce boundaries without being overly rigid or confusing.
  •       We want to teach children skills to respond appropriately when they feel frustrated, like asking for something instead of taking it.
  •       When a child breaks a boundary, we want to respond with empathy, teach the appropriate behavior, and give them a chance to try again.
  •       We want to help children develop a “pause” before reacting impulsively, by asking “What’s your plan?”

 

Some tips to create clear and consistent boundaries and expectations for children:

  •       Establish boundaries and expectations proactively, not just reactively. Discuss them with children ahead of time so they understand the rules.
  •       Use clear, specific language when communicating boundaries. Avoid vague terms like “be good” or “don’t misbehave.” Instead, say things like “hands on your knees”, “feet stay on the ground”, “whispers only” or “match my voice.”
  •       Enforce boundaries consistently every time, without exceptions. If you allow exceptions, it can confuse and undermine the boundary.
  •       Involve children in setting some boundaries and expectations. Give them age-appropriate choices within the limits you set.
  •       Post visual reminders of key rules and expectations around the house so everyone can reference them.
  •       Be a model of the behavior you expect. Children are more likely to follow rules if they see their parents following them too.
  •       Use natural consequences when boundaries are crossed, rather than punishments. This helps children learn from their mistakes.

 

  The key is being proactive, specific, and consistent. This sets your children up for success in meeting your family’s expectations.

Episode 7: Boundaries and Expectations, Part 1 of 2

 

Heather  00:00

This episode is the start of a two part series on boundaries and expectations.

 

Kristina  00:05

We’ll discuss how we proactively set up boundaries and expectations with our children in a way that promotes their success and our family’s overall wellbeing.

 

Heather  00:15

We talk about how to consistently enforce boundaries with our children without being overly rigid or confusing.

 

Kristina  00:22

We’ll also discuss strategies we can use to help our children develop the skills to respond appropriately when they feel frustrated, like when they want something that belongs to another person or a sibling.

 

Heather  00:33

We like to say boundaries are not just fences we put up, but they are also great tools for teaching skills and reinforcing our values and our kids. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  00:49

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma,

 

Heather  01:02

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good, long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  01:24

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  01:30

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  01:31

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  01:37

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  01:50

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature -based initiatives.

 

Heather  01:57

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org, to learn more about the ODC Networks’, mission and impact. So today, we’re going to be talking about boundaries and expectations, why they’re important, how they can be tricky, because they are tricky. I think for a lot of people, some of us hold really tight boundaries. Some of us struggle to set boundaries and keep them real loose, and then that’s confusing, especially to children. So we’re going to talk about what makes a really good boundary. Why good clear boundaries are important, and what they allow in our family. Boundaries allow us as parents to teach our children what we believe are acceptable behaviors in our homes in other settings where we take our children. For me, it was the grocery store. It might have been a restaurant. It was at church. All of those different places that we go as a family, we have the opportunity as parents to teach our children what we deem acceptable and not acceptable, and really, I think we as parents sometimes don’t connect, or don’t realize or know that boundaries are a vehicle for us to teach our children our values and our foundations, and I think as parents, sometimes we just don’t realize that maybe it’s that we’re focusing too much on a rule, or maybe it’s that we’re focusing like we talked about before, on obedience, yeah, and we don’t realize that so much of discipline is just how we live with our children in our homes on the daily, and that boundaries are one of those vehicles, a really, really good and powerful one to teach our children our values through what is acceptable, what is not acceptable, what is going to elicit a consequence. All of those things are really important, and they’re really important for our children to have a clear understanding of and they impact who they become. It impacts what we allow in our families, how we teach respect, care, compassion for one another, is going to impact how our children launch into the world and then respect others, treat others, care for others, show compassion for others. And that’s the piece that I think sometimes we don’t realize, as parents, we have that influence.

 

Kristina  04:45

Oh, absolutely. I think that we can be lulled into the sense of we can just roll with the punches and see where the day takes us. And some of us have temperaments that lend themselves more. To that type of parenting

 

Heather  05:01

Exactly. Some of us hold those boundaries real tight because we are firmly rooted in tradition or in stewardship or are more duty bound. And then there are other temperaments that just feel boundaries to be confining, yeah, and they suck the creativity out of life, or they suck some of the joy out of life. And so that gets really tricky, and we have to know who we are as a parent, and it goes back to also knowing who your child is as a child.

 

Kristina  05:37

So one of the reasons that we are so passionate about talking about boundaries and expectations and having them be clear out-loud expectations we cannot expect another human being to meet an expectation or to remain within a boundary when they don’t know what it is. So one of the reasons it’s so important to us to talk about it is because once you have established expectations and boundaries and they’re out loud, it makes the journey so much more smooth. It allows children to be successful because they know what the expectations are, and parenting becomes more joyful.

 

Heather  06:21

It absolutely does. And I remember a way long time ago, I think this was even before I had children, because sometimes we think they just know what we expect without us saying it, and they don’t. Sometimes I used to think that my spouse should know, that they should be able to know because they know me deeply. And someone said to me, “Well, they can’t read your mind. It’s not really fair to expect a certain outcome when you’re not sharing what you need.” And I was like, “I’m a therapist”  I was like, “Oh, I guess that isn’t really great practice.”

 

Kristina  07:00

I remember my mother telling my sister when she was first married, ‘Honey, tell him what you need, and then act like he came up with it all on his own. That’s like the secret of success in a marriage.” 

 

Heather  07:13

It’s the secret sauce, right there, folks. You heard it here. 

 

Kristina  07:17

They can’t know if we don’t tell them.

 

Heather  07:19

Absolutely. And it’s not fair to have an expectation not share what it is, and then get really resentful. And sometimes we do those things with our spouses, with our children. So clear expectations and boundaries are super important so people can be successful. And we say this all the time a child who is not good at succeeding can get really tempted to get good at failing, and we never want that. We don’t want that for our children, for ourselves, for our spouse. We want everybody to feel successful because it brings joy to our home. 

 

Kristina  08:00

Boundaries can be really tricky for parents. They can be tricky to establish. They can be tricky to enforce. I know, just because of who I am, that I’m much more prone to say that, “Oh, just one more time” after I’ve set a boundary. Like “We’re going to leave the pool at two o’clock. You have five more minutes. You may do one more thing in the pool.” And so there’s one more awesome slide down the slide, and a big splash, and then it would be time to go. But Grace would say, “Just one more. Just one more.” And I’m prone to say, “Oh, sure.  Just one more time.”

 

Heather  08:34

We’re having so much fun. Just one beautiful day. We need to soak this in. Just do it one more time, right?

 

Kristina  08:41

But you can bet after that one more time, there will be the request for one more time, one more time, one more time, and then I can get frustrated with something I have set up on my very own, right? I said: here’s the boundary we’re going to be leaving at this time, and then I just blew the boundary right over, right? Sure, one more time. May I have a cookie? Yeah. May I have another one? Sure. I mean, they’re really good, aren’t they? To me, it felt happy to be doing those things like, yeah, we can do this one more time. Sure, we can do that. And what I was inadvertently doing is blowing my boundaries, which we talk about being fences that we establish for safety. We establish those fences for teaching skills, like you had mentioned, teaching manners.

 

Heather  09:33

Well it marks the territory. It marks the area, and it marks the line at which point you’ve crossed the boundary. 

 

Kristina  09:43

And if we allow our fences to be erected haphazardly, we just kind of do it on the fly, and the children don’t know where that fence is, they will run into it, and then we have a choice about how we’re going to respond to the child who runs into the fence.

 

Heather  10:02

And we have to understand that children are going to challenge the fence. Yes, really, their developmental job, right? They’re seeking more autonomy as they grow. They’re trying to become independent, and in doing so, they’re going to try to climb the fence. They’re going to kick it. They’re going to shake it, some more than others, again, because there are some children that are just more compliant naturally, by nature, by temperament, and then there are others that also by nature and temperament, are the ones that are going to throw stones at that fence. They’re gonna shake it vigorously and they’re gonna kick it and try to make it go over.

 

Kristina  10:47

So we as the adults get to decide where we are going to establish the fences and then how we are going to maintain them. The fence does not attack a child or taunt a child, like, “Ooh, you’re getting really close to the fence. Don’t touch the fence. Don’t touch the fence. Don’t touch the fence.” Then, wham, you touch the fence. 

 

Heather  11:13

We don’t allow our boundary or our fence to become a punishment. So as that child gets near, it doesn’t whack the child, right? It’s just there, right being the boundary marking the line.

 

Kristina  11:24

But my behavior at the pool, where I had erected a fence right? Here’s the boundary for our time here. And then I knocked the fence over. I said, we don’t really need to pay attention to that boundary. You can do it one more time. So when I zoom out and say, “What was I teaching? Was I trying to be a fun mom? Did I maybe think I had erected a fence that wasn’t reasonable, or was I just acquiescing because I like to bring the joy, as opposed to holding the boundary?” That was something that I really needed to learn, because I wasn’t setting my daughter up for success when I would move the fence.

 

Heather  12:08

Yes, because it’s confusing. And there are times we’ll do it because we make a choice to move the fence. Perhaps maybe it is spontaneity. Maybe it is everybody’s having a better time. Who knows? It could be lots of reasons. But what we need to understand is, when we move the fence or we move the boundary, it is confusing to the child and the child’s brain, because what we have taught them is the boundary moves. And then we have to go back and teach harder that the boundary actually doesn’t move, and the only way that their brain registers that message is through rote repetition and practice. The boundary has to hold. The boundary has to hold a significant amount of times, and finally, the child’s brain will say, “Ah, I’m not gonna get one more time to go down the slide at the pool,” or “I’m not gonna get another cookie,” because we’ve held that boundary enough that their brain registers it and now knows. But if we’re wishy washy, it’s so confusing to the child and their brain, and then they just challenge more, because they know that they can keep at it and that boundary will eventually move.

 

Kristina  13:35

So this is a tricky thing. It’s a very tricky thing, and I want us to talk about, how can we get better at this.

 

Heather  13:44

And why it’s so important to get better as parents. What we always say is that feelings of safety and security are paramount for children. They need them to learn. They need them to be able to feel connected to us. And what we know is when they feel safe and secure, it more likely ignites cooperation. So sometimes, as parents, we can think, if we have a lot of boundaries, that we’re not respecting our child’s feelings. Do you think that’s true?

 

Kristina  14:25

I don’t know that I think that’s true. I think that sometimes we erect so many boundaries that the child just has fences everywhere. And deciding where we are going to build a fence and hold a boundary and where they have more room to roam and experiment is important to not have too many. 

 

Heather  14:49

I think we talk a lot about offering choices, and parents can hear that, and then think everything needs to become a choice, right? It doesn’t. It’s okay to hold fast to certain things. I’m going to go back to our dinner time. You had to ask to be excused. You had to carry your plate to the counter or sink. I think about the pool. When my kids were little, we would go to the same pool. And do you remember that the water slide? There was a point. Do you remember this like it was a zero grade, and they could go in. But there was a point that we would always mark on the concrete, because the swirl of that water slide would suck the little ones in a puddle jumper. Do you remember that? Yes, and I distinctly remember, with both of my younger children marking that line in the concrete and saying, “Here. You may come up to here. You may not go beyond here, because you will get sucked in to that swirl. The force is gonna suck you into that, and then you’re gonna end up at the bottom of that water slide, and the lifeguard is gonna whoop blow their whistle and get you out of there and be mad at me.” But the kids want to be independent. And we wanted to sit somewhat and not always be monitoring when they’re getting sucked into the vortex of the water slide. And I distinctly remember with Luke, having to be eyes on him all the time because he’d look at me and be like, does she see me? Is she watching me? And having to kind of silently without words, just look at him and like, point at that line, like, right there, and he would dance on it. And sometimes he would fly right past that point with a big old smile on his face, like, “Here I go!” I imagine it was kind of fun to get sucked into that he didn’t need to move his body at all, and just the force took him, and I remember like, “Nope.” And then pulling him out and setting him down and being like, you gotta sit out for this amount of time, because that’s the boundary.

 

Kristina  16:50

And you had said it out loud, “If you move beyond this boundary, you will sit out for a period of time. 

 

Heather  16:57

And I remember one time in particular, because remember every hour there was like a five minute break or something, because they didn’t want everybody peeing in the pool. Everybody had to get out and pee, so they had this five minute break. And he ended up having to be out of the pool because he had to take that time that I had set. But then it was also the five minute break. And he was like, “I lost a really big amount of time in the pool.” And I was like, “You did. You did.” And so to have that conversation of, yeah, that was the consequence. Like, you lost swim time because you made the choice to go beyond and it didn’t take very long of that repetition of doing that. I remember the lifeguard kind of watching it, and they’re like teenagers and thinking, “Whew! I think that gigs a lot of work.” It’s probably a really good lesson for that teenage lifeguard. Watching it like that is a game for people with a lot of energy and stamina, and it is, yeah, because it took a lot to monitor him, not going beyond that point.

 

Kristina  18:02

I want to point out something about what you just shared, and that is that when Luke made the decision to go beyond the boundary and he had to sit out, you did not say “I told you. You chose to go beyond the boundary. So here you sit. Isn’t that fun, Luke? Maybe you should have listened to me and stayed within the boundary, right?” The fence doesn’t come and attack or taunt. 

 

Heather  18:30

It just holds and it doesn’t question their character. We’re trying to grow and develop it, right?

 

Kristina  18:35

The beauty of it is that it’s not me against you. It’s not parent against child or caregiver against the one that they are raising. It is both of us saying, “Oh, bummer. It is a bummer, Luke. You did miss a lot of time. Nuts. I’m so sorry that was kind of rotten.

 

Heather  18:56

In some ways, he would do it, looking right at me. Like, “Yep, here she comes.” It was like he was also testing me, right? Like, is she gonna make me do this? Because if not, I’m just gonna keep on going.

 

Kristina  19:11

But it’s so easy. You’ve talked about how your kids need to clear their plate, bring it into the kitchen. How easy is it if one of them forgets to do that, runs off to play, and you just think to yourself, I’ll just take it. I mean, it’s no big deal. I’ll take his plate this time. And there are times when we can do that, and there are times that we do that, but we need to understand then what happens. So if you do it, then the child learns it’s not really important.

 

Heather  19:42

It’s not really that important. Maybe I don’t have to take my –  there’s not really that committed to it, right?

 

Kristina  19:46

As opposed to taking the extra work of saying, “Hey, Grace? Come on back. You forgot your plate.”

 

Heather  19:52

You maybe don’t remember this. But one thing that we commonly said was, “First things first.” Yep. “Hey, first things first. Come and take a look at what needs to be done before you head out the door.” Oh, yep, yeah, I gotta get my plate.

 

Kristina  20:06

Yep. And in that way, when we hold a boundary, when we keep it consistent, when we are on the same side as our child with empathy and with understanding, and they experience that repeatedly, they begin to learn, yes, it doesn’t do me any good to kick that fence. It’s not moving. One of the easiest ways to extinguish a behavior is to respond to it absolutely consistently. The fastest way to ingrain a behavior is to respond to it inconsistently. Because if a child knows if I come into my parents bedroom or my mom’s bedroom or my dad’s bedroom in the night, and I want to sleep with them, if sometimes they’ll say yes, then I know that I can come in for another thousand days, and at some point they’re going to say yes again. I don’t know when, but I know it happened once, so it can happen again. So when we do move our fences intentionally, speaking of nighttime, this was one for my daughter that we had to figure out. I’ve said before, my husband traveled a lot with work, so when he was out of town, my daughter, who struggles with being anxious, she could sleep with me. Now some people are going to say, “Oh, boy, that is trouble.” For us, it worked. And it was something I could say out loud “When daddy’s gone, you may sleep with me in our bed.” And so on those nights, it wasn’t that I was responding to her request in the moment, that was pushing a boundary or kicking a fence. I could proactively say, “Here’s a new fence.” That’s important. So I’m going to go back to the pool. We were members at the same fitness club, which had an outdoor pool. At the outdoor pool, it also had a little concession stand. So one of our, one of my, you know, boundaries, was that we didn’t buy food from the concession stand, because I knew we would be buying food every day for the rest of forever when we went to the pool, so we were not going to do it. So every time Grace asked, “Can we please do it? Can we please, please, please, please, please, please, just this one. Just this once?” I would say, “Nope, not this time.” Now, I later found out that, like you can get a grilled cheese sandwich for next to nothing, and those little ice cream cones are fantastic, and they were also next to nothing. So I thought, “Hmm, it’s actually not such a bad idea to get lunch here every once in a while.” So I would say to Grace proactively, “Hey, when we head to the pool today, we’re going to be able to order some food from the little area there, and we can eat lunch at the pool.” So it wasn’t in a response to her, asking, begging, trying to push the fence. It was something you put in place ahead of time. And that’s a huge difference. Children learn not by what we say. So much more than by what they experience. So if the experience is that boundary holds, that fence holds, then again, they learn kicking it doesn’t help anything.

 

Heather  23:29

And it can get real tricky when everybody else is buying food, and your rule is, we’re not gonna get food. And sometimes, as parents, we don’t want to, I think, deprive our child of that, whatever that that food brings, because we brought snacks. It’s not that they’re not gonna get fed, right? But it’s the excitement, or, I don’t know-

 

Kristina  23:59

And the snacks we brought don’t look nearly as good once you see what the others are having, right?

 

Heather  24:04

And so we can join in that empathy. But we also say, “Empathy without boundaries always equals chaos.” And that is a really important thing to remember. And the distinguishing point that you made is that you can change. You don’t have to lock yourself into something forever. It’s that in the moment, once you’ve set a boundary, you don’t want to move your fence in front of that child because they’re begging, because everybody else is doing it right. Because that’s never a message we want to send our kids. We don’t want to send the message that, well, we’re just going to do this because everybody else is. At least, I never wanted to send that message. But you set it up on the front end so that it could be something that felt special and felt together. I really like that. It felt like we’re going to do this. This is going to be fun for us. Set it up ahead of time so it wasn’t in response to whining, begging, pleading, gnashing of teeth, a tantrum. Yep, none of those things, right? It was established ahead of time, and establishing those boundaries allows everyone to be on the same page and have a really clear understanding and a much more enjoyable experience.

 

Kristina  25:35

So tech time was another tricky one for me. If I was busy doing something. During all of COVID, I worked from home. I was still working full time. I was at home. My daughter was at home. So that got dicey, right? So she would have tech time, and we had a boundary on that tech time. But man, oh man, if I was in a conference call and she came up and her time was done, it was so easy for me to say, “Yeah, you can have another half an hour.” Because I still had work to do. I was in the middle of it, right? And being able to respond to her while still working put me in a really tricky situation. Sometimes it’s not work, sometimes it’s just I’m in the middle of getting dinner ready, or whatever it might be. And so I would say, “Yeah, you can have a little bit more time.” You put the limits on their tech where, you know, it turns off in 30 minutes, and then you put the code back in and give them another 30. That set me up for a child that would consistently ask for more and then have big fits when she couldn’t get it, because sometimes she did and she didn’t understand what the difference was.

 

Heather  26:40

Well, why do I get it sometimes, and then other times you’re just so frustrated and shout “no” or say “no” or say “you know you’ve reached your limit.”

 

Kristina  26:52

So I was not setting her up for success. Or for me, it certainly wasn’t setting us up to have a smoother journey, a more joyful hike. We were kind of engaged in that back and forth, the tug of war, the “Am I going to topple the fence today, or am I not going to topple the fence today?” So there are times like that when, again, I like to zoom out a lot and think about the boundary we’ve established. Is it reasonable? Is it developmentally appropriate? How am I equipping my child to be successful in meeting that expectation? Do they have the skill to meet the expectation? Because sometimes we set a boundary that they don’t have the skill for and then we can’t expect a child to meet an expectation when they don’t have the skill for it yet. 

 

Heather  27:40

So let’s talk about how we determine boundaries. You said a couple of things right there, that we want to carefully select them for what we’re trying to teach, that we want it to be developmentally appropriate. But let’s look at what boundaries for the really young child look like. Because really it’s only a few things, and it really is to protect them from physical harm when they’re really little. We want our boundaries to keep them safe. That’s primary importance. Keep the young child safe. We want them to protect property like we’re not going to write on the walls, even though sometimes children do, and then we have to figure that out and what the consequences for that, but teaching again, how do we protect our property? And then the other one is often to protect the child and other children emotionally. So we want to make sure our child feels emotionally safe and that they’re not doing anything to make other people or children feel emotionally unsafe, and that kind of goes back to the pool. Like we’re keeping those, a young child you’re not going beyond this point, because I don’t want you to get sucked into that. You can’t go beyond this point in the yard because you’ll be too close to the road. You know, you must wear your helmet when you ride your scooter. All of those are safety things.

 

Kristina  29:04

But what do you do? Because welcome to our homes, right? With siblings. When one sibling is whacking and wailing on the other sibling, what do you do for us? One of our foundations is that you are safe in this home. You are safe in this family. Safe, physically. Safe, emotionally. Your property is safe and that’s something that we as the adults are responsible for ensuring and teaching. Yes, it’s your job as the children to help us do that. But if something occurs that is unsafe in the family, whether with words or with physical harm or with property damage, what do we do?

 

Heather  29:44

So a commonly occurring thing: There are two children. One of them took something from someone else, or somebody wanted to turn and didn’t get it. They both want the same thing, and it ends up being chucked at the other person, and it connects. I remember a specific time that this happened with our girls. This happened at my house in the basement, where the kind of toy room was, and I think it was like a doctor’s kit.

 

Kristina  30:10

Doc McStuffins, I bet probably,

 

Heather  30:12

And it was the otoscope that probably they both wanted. One of them had it. I’m not sure what happened. Ava ended up chucking it at Grace, and it made contact and hit her. And Grace said, “Ow, Ava.” And so I went over there, and then I think she began to cry. And I very intentionally physically turned my back to the perpetrator. So whoever has perpetrated the violent act, or made the poor decision, I just put my back to them physically, because I don’t want to make eye contact. I don’t want to give them any attention or input for that behavior, because we want to extinguish it all, right?

 

Kristina  30:54

So when you go in Grace is crying. You have ascertained that Ava threw something and make contact, and you go in and you said you turned your back to Ava. Why do you do that? What are you doing in turning your back toward the perpetrator, in this case, Ava and focusing on the victim, in this case, Grace?

 

Heather  31:16

It’s very intentional. Even though Ava’s my child, right? She’s behaved poorly. She’s done something that I don’t like. She’s not keeping the place safe. She is just low level assaulted a friend. So I’m gonna go in and I’m gonna keep my back to her intentionally, because I don’t wanna give that any energy. I don’t wanna give her any attention for that negative behavior, because I don’t want to see more of it, right? What I want to teach in that moment is, “You just caused harm to a friend.” So I go to Grace, your daughter, and I scoop her up, and I say, “That seems like it hurt. That was not kind.” And of course, Ava’s watching this entire exchange, like, “Oh, this apparently wasn’t a popular choice, right?”

 

Kristina  32:05

Yeah, and so you said to Grace, “Something happe”ned.

 

Heather  32:08

“Tell me what happened.”

 

Kristina  32:

“Ava threw that at me, and it really hurt.”

 

Heather  32:16

“Yes, see that. It hurt. Hit me right here. Did you like it? No. Why didn’t you like it? I didn’t like it because it hurt. Tell her, look at Ava’s eyes.

 

Kristina  32:29

I didn’t like it when you did that. It hurt, Ava.

 

Heather  32:31

Do you hear what Grace said? Yes. Say it back to her. “She didn’t like it because it hurt when I threw that.” Right. Grace, tell her what to do next time.

 

Kristina  32:43

Next time if you want it,  just ask me if you can have it. Or if it’s my turn to have it, just bring it to me. But it hurt when you threw it at me.

 

Heather  32:55

Ava, did you hear what Grace said? Yes. She said that next time to bring it to her. Don’t throw it at her when it’s her turn. But I wasn’t done with it, Mom, I wanted it longer. I hear you. You were frustrated. Next time say, “I’m frustrated.” Don’t throw it at Grace.

 

Kristina  33:13

And that right there is teaching children skills, right? Skills to be able to respond when something doesn’t feel good to them, how to communicate that, how to share what you would like to have happen instead.

 

Heather  33:31

We aren’t done yet. I mean, I would say, “Ava, come over, pick this up, go back, try it again, and have a do over.” And then you do it the correct way? Yeah, you did it. There’s no ill will towards either one of them. No, they’re children that are learning, right?

 

Kristina  33:48

It just presents an opportunity to teach. 

 

Heather  33:53

To teach. Yep. Absolutely. They don’t have the skills. And if we can look at it, remove all of our stuff as parents that we tend to like, “Oh, people saw that. They think I’m a bad parent.” No, it’s just children being children learning skills within the skill set that they already have, right?

 

Kristina  34:16

And people will think a lot of things, and we can’t control. If we focus on trying to control that, then we’ve lost sight of what we’re doing. We’re more concerned about our reputation as parents and our children behaving in a way that secures our sense of “we’re good parents” and childhood is messy. They will make mistakes. 

 

Heather  34:39

We will make mistakes. And they will make mistakes within our homes and within our friend groups with children that we know and love, they will do those things. But if we can all approach it with “what can we teach? How can we grow?” and focus on that? It is a much more joyful journey. And we can all support one another.

 

Kristina  35:01

Now I don’t intend to make this sound like it’s easy. There are some children who, mine was one of them, who have real difficulty controlling their impulses. They’re lacking or have a very short pause between input and reaction. And so sometimes the task is helping a child build their pause. And we’ll talk about that in an upcoming episode about let’s just give them a nibble, though. Let’s give them a little nibble. What is the most common question that we ask a child when we’re trying to teach the pause?

 

Heather  35:37

The thing that I always try to teach teachers or parents, is to say to the child, “What’s your plan?” Because what that question does is it forces a pause, and the child thinks, “What is my plan?” They maybe didn’t have a plan. When a stick goes in the air, when the rule is sticks stay to the ground, I could say simply, “Sticks stay to the ground,” – but there’s a plan that child has that stick in the air for a reason. So it’s much more effective to say, “What’s your plan with the stick?” I’m really mad. I’m going to- “Oh, you’re really angry? Put the stick to the ground. I’m here to help.” Yep, you don’t want them brandishing the stick, and it’s going to crack over a head, or it’s going to slam into something or fly through the air and potentially harm somebody. But for really impulsive kids, where there’s that impulse-action, impulse-action, and we need to teach the pause, the thing to get them doing frequently until it becomes their new habit, even when you don’t ask, “What’s my plan?” So just saying to them, “What’s your plan? What’s your plan? How are we going to get from the door at Target to our car? What’s your plan?” And it might be your plan and you’ve given some direction, and they had choice within it: “Are you going to hold my hand? Are you going to sit in the cart basket? What’s your plan?” It gives them choice. It also gives them a sense of being in charge, which they want to be in charge of themselves to a certain degree, within our confines and our fence and so on. But “What’s your plan?” Is a great way to teach them how to pause and think things through, and then it just becomes a habit when we ask it frequently enough.

 

Kristina  37:44

We often, like you had mentioned earlier, do not see the entirety of an interaction between children before somebody’s hurt. 

 

Heather  37:54

Almost never, right, do we see the entire interaction.

 

Kristina  37:58

So, in moving into those spaces when something has happened, to get down on their level and saying, “Something happened. I’m here to help.”

 

Heather  38:07

Oftentime  with children, we don’t know who did what. But the one who instigated an act that is probably breaking the rules or is going to seem unkind, will take off and run. And oftentimes those children know they’ve done something wrong, and they know there’s going to be a consequence or and maybe at home, it’s a punishment, I don’t know. They’re afraid they’re in trouble. They’re afraid they’re in trouble. And so they peel out of there. And so getting low immediately says to them, “I am friend.” And then verbalizing, “I’m here to help. Something has happened. I’m here to help you. Let me know when you’re ready.”

 

Kristina  38:54

Because too often we charge in and see the child who’s injured and then look to the person injured, and we think we know what happened.

 

Heather  39:04

And really to let the injurer be because they need a minute to compose themselves, and they’re not ready, because they know, typically that they’re in trouble. But there’s real power in going to that victim and letting everybody see when someone’s harmed, we go to them first.

 

Kristina  39:22

And like we’ve talked about in discipline: our end game is not that now you perpetrator, child, you’re in trouble. It is much more about saying “So how can we have a fix? How can we have a do over? What can we do differently because we’re teaching skills.”

 

Heather  39:40

And how can we check in on whomever we’ve harmed, and how can we make that right?

 

Kristina  39:44

Yes, because that’s part of life, right? We make decisions throughout our lifetime that unintentionally or intentionally cause harm, and what are we going to do with that? Simply saying, “I’m sorry” doesn’t fix the harm. Doesn’t heal the broken. 

 

Heather  40:03

It doesn’t teach a skill. It doesn’t teach, in fact, it erodes the words “I’m sorry,” and reduces them to empty words, I would say, because children don’t even understand that process. Like the little ones that we’re working with, and they get into this habit then of just doing kind of crappy things and be like, “sorry, sorry, yeah, sorry,” and thinking it’s okay, and we never grow the skill, right?

 

Kristina  40:29

So one of the other things, again, we work a lot with preschoolers at this point in our careers, and it could be that, like you had said, a child does something that causes harm, and that could even be, “I don’t want to play with you.” Words that feel unsafe to a child or hurt a child’s feelings, while the child who says it may not be ready to have that conversation. And so I’ll say to the child, “So I know you’re really upset about that. That really hurt. You know, child B is not ready yet to talk about that. So you have a choice: You can wait for that child to be ready, and you can stay here and be sad. I mean, that’s absolutely an option. Or you can go and play while we’re waiting for a child B to be ready.” We need to make sure that we come back around and close that circle, that there actually is that connection point. But sometimes, again, depending on what a child has experienced, how much shame they’ve been exposed to, what being in trouble looks like, they may not be ready to come back and have that conversation right away, or vice versa. The one who’s been harmed may not be ready to have the conversation with the person who harmed them. And so being able to give that space, and that’s a beautiful way to teach consent.

 

Heather  41:48

“May I talk to you?” No, oh, they’re not ready. It’s going to take a few more minutes, and that is really the definition of a natural consequence. Something happened. That child now needs some space and time and distance from it. And another childs need to either feel better about it or have maybe us as the parent, because we want to remedy it or solve it, doesn’t get to over impose on the other child’s speed at which they’re ready to receive the other part of that. It goes back to not everything is a teachable moment. You can circle back later. I think that’s something that we forget as parents, that we have more time we don’t have to immediately deal with those things. We can circle back at another time and have a really powerful conversation about something that will go much better when we have some distance, all of us from whatever transpired, right? Getting back to our thinking brain. Yes, so we talked about little little people, and having the boundaries be safety based and emotional safety and all of that. But as our kids are older, over time, we’ve had to change our boundaries and our expectations within our home as our kids have grown, they’ve become more capable. They’ve matured. And then that’s really where we move into that sweet spot of our boundaries can really teach our values and really grow them into the people that we would love to see them be. They’re going to be who they’re going to be, but as parents, we can help shape that. And that’s the power of nurture. There’s that whole nature piece they come into the world who they are, right? But as parents, we’re the nurture we get to help grow them into who they’re going to be. And boundaries is a great way to do that.

 

Kristina  44:06

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina

 

Heather  44:12

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  44:17

Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina 44:18

See you on the trails! 

 

Kristina  44:20

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  44:34

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  44:42

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands-on, outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  44:55

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org. 

Episode 6: Being The Detective / Chasing The “Why,” Part 2 of 2

In this episode Kristina and Heather continue their conversation about being the detectives in our homes. They discuss strategies for understanding and managing children’s behaviors, particularly around food and screen time. They emphasize the importance of connection during family meals, suggesting a balance between parental control and allowing children to listen to their bodies. They share their experiences with their own children around specific food preferences. They also highlight the impact of screen time on brain chemistry, recommending 15-minute limits to avoid dopamine overload. The conversation underscores the many benefits of outdoor activities for regulating the central nervous system and fostering healthy family dynamics.

 

FOOD AND MEALTIMES

“The key is to shift the dynamic from a power struggle over food to a nurturing time of bonding and nourishment – for both the body and the spirit. By removing the fight, you create space for meaningful connection.” 

Heather and Kristina’s suggestions for creating a peaceful and nourishing mealtime experience focused on connection and allowing children to listen to their bodies:

– Provide a variety of healthy options and let your children choose what and how much they want to eat. Avoid power struggles over finishing everything on their plate.

– Make the mealtime about connection, conversation, and gratitude rather than just the food. Ask questions, share about your days, and express appreciation.

– Set up an “approved snack shelf” that your children can access freely throughout the day. This gives them autonomy while ensuring they have healthy options.

– Allow your children to ask to be excused when they feel done, rather than forcing them to sit until everyone is finished. This gives them a sense of control.

– Avoid distractions like screens during mealtimes. Keep the focus on being present with each other.

“We want to empower our children to listen to their internal cues of hunger and fullness, rather than relying on external rules or pressure.”

– When children indicate they are done eating, validate their feelings and avoid pressuring them to finish everything on their plate. Say something like “Okay, it sounds like your body is feeling satisfied. You can be excused when you’re ready.”

– Avoid labeling foods as “good” or “bad.” Instead, talk about “strong foods” and “weak foods” to encourage a balanced perspective.

– Make mealtimes about connection, not just consumption. Engage in conversation, share gratitude, and focus on the time shared together,

– If a child doesn’t want to eat what’s served, offer the “snack shelf” options rather than becoming a short-order cook. Maintain the boundaries you’ve set while remaining flexible.

 

SCREEN TIME & SCHEDULE OVERLOAD

Heather and Kristina discuss the impact of dopamine spikes on all of us, especially kiddos. They talk about implementing a 15-minute screen time limit, with breaks in between, to avoid those dopamine spikes and the tricky behaviors that arrive with them.

They remind us to check in on the family’s overall schedule, attachment, sleep, and nutrition to address any imbalances that may be contributing to behavioral challenges.

  

OUTDOOR TIME

“It’s important to get back to those basics and say: What is attachment like? How are we sleeping? How’s the appetite? What is being eaten? What kinds of fluids are we taking in? How much time are we outside? We know as parents that spending time outside is good for children’s physical health, their emotional health. 

Being outside is a natural regulator. It is for both child and adult.”

 Heather and Kristina discuss how crucial outdoor time and physical activity are for helping regulate children’s (and our own) central nervous systems.

A few of Heather and Kristina’s favorite ways of incorporating more outdoor time and nature-based activities into our daily routine, which we know is so crucial for our kiddos and supports the well-being of the entire family:

– Start the day with a brief outdoor activity, like a family walk around the block or a few minutes of stretching in the yard. This can help regulate our whole family’s central nervous systems.

– Plan a picnic lunch or snack time outdoors, whether in your backyard, a local park, or even just on the front steps. Eating in nature can be very calming. 

– Incorporate nature exploration into your regular activities. For example, go on a nature scavenger hunt during your neighborhood walk, or observe the birds and insects in your yard or at the park.

– Set up an outdoor play area with simple toys like bubbles, sidewalk chalk, or a small sandbox. Encourage free, unstructured play time outside.

 – Take advantage of local parks, nature centers like ODC’s Outdoor Discovery Center, or hiking trails on the weekends for longer outdoor adventures as a family.

Episode 6: Being The Detective / Chasing The “Why,” Part 2 of 2

 

Kristina  00:00

In this episode, we’re continuing our detective work in understanding those tricky behaviors in our kids. 

 

Heather  00:06

We’ll share some of the strategies we use to search for clues so we can keep ourselves steady and support our kids in those challenging moments. 

 

Kristina  00:14

We’ll go further into this idea of chasing the “why” to understand unexpected behaviors, specifically when it comes to food and screen time.

 

Heather  00:23

We’ll return again to why connection is so vital, especially at key moments like around meal times or transition times in our homes.

 

Kristina  00:31

And speaking of connection, we’ll talk a bit more about screen time and how it affects all of us, especially children.

 

Heather  00:38

We’ll share some things that might help you create healthy boundaries around screens. And we’ll talk about the power of the great outdoors and how getting outside really regulates our kids’ central nervous systems and ours as well.

 

Kristina  00:52

Fresh air and a bit of nature can really do wonders for all of us. We’ll wrap up by talking about how challenging it can be when these basics are out of balance. 

 

Heather  01:03

So let’s get out there, keep exploring and continue being the detective for our kids. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood!

 

Kristina  01:13

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  01:27

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good, long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  01:49

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are

 

Heather  01:55

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  01:55

Let’s hit the trails!

 

Heather  02:02

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:14

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives. 

 

Heather  02:22

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. So let’s talk about food for a bit. It’s one of our basics that we say to go back to, and food is a thing in a lot of families, and it means a lot of different things in a lot of families. Absolutely does. And I think it can be really easy to mislead ourselves as parents on how much food our children need, and what we like to say in our parenting class is, if you look at your child and they make a fist that’s the size of their stomach. And it can get full pretty quickly. It doesn’t take a whole lot to fill that stomach up. Right now, they’re growing. Their brain is developing, and so we want them to eat frequently. My daughter was a grazer. I remember this, and it made me a little crazy. It’s not something that I particularly love to do is graze, but it was who she was. It seemed like who she was wired to be. She would eat very healthy things. She loved vegetables. She loved fruits. This was a really hard thing for my husband. I was home. We had family meals. I’ve said before that was important to us. So I would prepare dinner, and he wanted all of the children to eat what was prepared. And I can appreciate that. He felt like that honored me. And what I wanted, after having been with the children all day, was a happy meal, not from McDonald’s, in my home. I wanted to have a happy meal time focused on connection, not necessarily on food.

 

Kristina  04:15

You wanted the fellowship of the family around the table.

 

Heather  04:18

Fellowship. I wanted it not to be this fight. I just wanted a peaceful dinner time, right? Because I was, you know, through the witching hour, as I like to call it, which I think oftentimes happens just before dinner. And I just wanted peace and calm and fellowship. I wanted to talk about our gratitude moment.

 

Kristina  04:38

You wanted nourishment and kind of at the deepest sense, mind and body.

 

Heather  04:42

Yes, mind and body nourishment. And so for sweet little Ava, who I wasn’t ever sure she was going to be a meat eater, and I think that’s a texture thing, maybe for her, I don’t know, to be honest. And I was like, “I’m really not gonna chase the why on that, because I got 99 problems.” 

 

Kristina  05:08

You don’t eat meat. I can live with that, like whatever. 

 

Heather  05:11

I wasn’t gonna get hung up on that detail, which is hilarious, because my husband? Meat at every meal is what my husband 

 

Kristina

Yeah, meat and potatoes.

 

Heather

That’s who he is, and so that’s what he likes. And Ava was not into that, so I just created a shelf in our refrigerator that had the little sweet containers that she could open on her own, and it had things like baby carrots that were washed and grapes that were clean, and blueberries and hummus and celery sticks and yogurt and cheese sticks, she ate all of that. It could just be a shelf that the children could have access to in my home. I always wanted them to ask if they could have a snack, because I wanted to be aware of when they were eating. But that was their shelf that they could go to if the answer was “Yes, go and get something out of that shelf.” It was also the shelf that at dinner time, if, for whatever reason, you didn’t want the crispy chicken, or you didn’t want to be eating the pot roast or whatever we might be having, she could go. And I was fine with that. This took some conversations between my husband and I, because he was much more “Your mother made this. You eat what’s on the table.” And again, I just wanted nourishment, mind and body and peace. So I was like, “Can we just try this and see?” And he was like, “Yeah. I mean, if that’s okay with you.” And I was like, “It’s okay with me. It’s fine.” And so she went and would do her little thing. And by golly, if you take the fight out of it, it’s so powerful, because she would tug, and she had nothing to tug against, right? She’d just go do her own thing. Get her little grapes, get her hummus and her carrots and her celery. I’m looking at her plate going, “it looks healthier than mine. Quite honestly, I don’t have hard boiled eggs.” Like she’s got protein. She’s got vegetables. I’m all good. And she was happy. And there was no fight. 

 

Kristina  07:15

You said something that was so key, and that is removing the power struggle about food, and this is a very common thing that we do. And it comes from a place of love. It can also come from a place of desiring to control that’s not nearly as healthy as a place of love and wanting to ensure that your child has enough food that they’re able to get what their body needs in order to function well.

 

Heather  07:45

And, in my family, my extended family, my grandmother was an amazing cook, and to her food was love. She loved you through food. And so we have some of these kind of things that we attach to food, right? And as much as I love my grandmother, and it was so great when I was growing up that she like loved through food, because I love to eat. But I also noticed that there was a component to that that I didn’t want to pass on. I wanted my kids to understand strong foods and weak foods, and your fist is the size of your stomach, and so you are check in with your body. I wanted them to listen to their body and not be trying to fill themselves with love through food.

 

Kristina  08:35

Yes, and we often say that we, as the grown ups, are in charge of what comes into our home, regarding food and what we put on the table or make accessible for the children and the rest of the family. We are not in charge of what they actually put in their mouth, right? I know what’s on the plate. I am not in charge of what is consumed because we don’t ever want to inadvertently send the message that I know you are hungry. I know you’re not hungry. I know that you like that. I know that you don’t like that. I know that that tastes fine. I know that that tastes different. My daughter has a very keen sense of smell and taste. They go together, and so I might have made something the exact same way I always make it, and it tastes exactly the same to me, but to her, it tastes different. And it can be tempting to say, “It doesn’t taste different. It’s the same as it always is.” Well, it does taste different to her. And so instead of telling her how something tastes to her, I can say, “Huh, that’s interesting. It tastes the same to me, but there must be something just a little bit different.” Right? Allow for the possibility that what she’s experiencing is what she’s experiencing. If we don’t do that, we run the risk of these children growing never really being able to trust themselves with what their body needs, what their body is experiencing, because they’ve been told over and over and over that that wasn’t so- “You’re not hungry. You just ate, right?” That’s like, well, maybe they are hungry. “You didn’t eat enough at dinner, so there’s no snack.” Well, sometimes we’re just not as hungry at a particular time. We don’t eat as much, and then we are hungry later. And not that it has to be a free for all with food. I know people are like, “I’m not a short order cook. I’m not, you know, in the kitchen all day long,” things like that. I don’t want to be in the kitchen all day long either. But to take the power struggle out of food and to let that time together be about nourishment, be about fellowship, be about connecting with each other, experiencing that joy, expressing that gratitude, being able to celebrate each other and what’s happened in the day during those meal times is a really powerful time within a family for attachment, for belonging, saying we are in this together. We are not here to fight. And children do this because they have to. They’ll throw out like a rope and beg you. Beg you pick it up to do tug of war with them. And if you pick up the other end of the rope and say, “No, you are eating that. No, you will have three more bites” and take a tug on that rope, what happens?

 

Heather  11:41

They tug back.

 

Kristina  11:42

They do. And now you’re stuck. Because once you’re in the midst of a tug of war and a power struggle with your child, it is very difficult to lay down your end and to still be able to move forward being in charge, right? That takes a special kind of nuanced dance.

 

Heather  12:00

And the one most committed to the cause has the least amount of power. 

 

Kristina

Say that again. 

Heather 

The one most committed to the outcome has the least amount of power.

 

Kristina  12:09

Preach it sister. It’s so true. 

 

Heather  12:13

It’s so true. And we get real passionate about these things, and sometimes we don’t even know why. mM boys, when Ava was in this, she was just figuring out who she was and what she liked to eat. And they would be like, “Are you a vegetarian?” And I’m like, “Who cares? Right? That means more meat for you, if she is, right?” I mean, it doesn’t matter, right? Like, she’s gonna figure out who she is, and that’s fine, whatever it turns out to be, but let’s just keep the peace at the table, and let’s make it about connection, and let’s be grateful that we have this food and that we can all eat what we want to eat and fill our bellies and then move on. 

 

Kristina  12:50

I loved what you did with that shelf of foods that were approved by you, right? You’d bought them, you’d brought them into your home. You made them accessible for your children. You set an expectation of “this is the shelf where, if you ask me to have something to eat, and I say, yes, you may go to that shelf.” You did all of that, which kept you from, “Um, Mom? Can I have grilled cheese? Mom, I want a hot dog.”

 

Heather  13:19

It was a boundary. Yes, it was an option, but it was also a built-in boundary. If you don’t like it, I don’t need to know about it, you go to the shelf, right? Serve yourself. Right? Wasn’t more work for me. They had access to it.

 

Kristina  13:32

So, because I don’t want any of us to feel like you need to give your child exactly what they want to eat when they want to eat it, and fall into that game. We make nutritious food that we feel good about accessible to our family.

 

Heather  13:46

And, you know, I always say it’s so much better to be proactive than reactive. That was a compromise my husband and I could make because we differed in our philosophies on this dinner time component, but that was something that he and I could talk through and compromise on and it felt like it was reasonable to him. It felt reasonable to me, and then it just allowed us to be proactive. So that it wasn’t becoming a short order cook. “I don’t like this. What can I have instead? The shelf right?” You can have the shelf right. Go see what’s there.

 

Kristina  14:18

And it also eliminated the child sitting at the table until bedtime, looking at that plate of food, thinking, “I don’t want one more bite of chicken. I don’t want one more bite of broccoli. I’m full.”

 

Heather  14:31

And sometimes it works to our benefit, because guess what? Then I could have lunch tomorrow leftover. I didn’t have to go to the shelf. I could have the leftover chicken and broccoli.

 

Kristina  14:41

Yep. Absolutely! But that’s another example of that power struggle, right? Like that is your dinner. You will eat it all. Clean plate club. Eat it all before you’re able to be excused. And that, again, is saying “I know better what your body needs in this moment.” So you can know better what nutrition they need, but not the volume of food that they consume, right? So they need to make that decision. You didn’t finish your milk. Drink the rest of your milk. Maybe they’re done drinking milk. Maybe we need to work, and this is what we needed to work on in our house – how much food you took, how much milk you poured and so not in any shaming way, but to say, “Huh. So sometimes our eyes are bigger than our bellies, and that looked really good, and you took a big, old huge heap of that. And then you listen to your body, and your body said, I’m done eating that. Now I’m satisfied.” Not even “I’m full,” right? Because I think especially in our country, we get used to this feeling of like, “Oh, I’m so full. Oh, I’m so stuffed.” That’s not actually a great feeling. It doesn’t feel good. I don’t know that it’s necessarily good for us. So we would say, when Grace was done eating, say, just take a minute, take a breath, check in with your body. Are you feeling satisfied? Are you a little bit hungry, yet you’re feeling satisfied? Wonderful. I’m so glad. And she may come back later and need something more to eat. And then there’s a different conversation that happens then. But that checking in, are you satisfied? Is a shift from, are you full? Eat a little more. You don’t know. The next time you’re going to eat, it’s going to be a long time before dinner. Eat a little more. Stepping away from that and moving into really empowering your child to listen to their own body for what they need. 

 

Heather  16:37

Another thing we did in our home was our children had asked to be excused from the dinner table, which maybe sounds really old school, but again, my husband and I had differing views, and he wanted them there, partly, maybe to just be there for the sake of almost from an obedience you’re gonna sit there until We’re done. Yes. And with my child development, I felt like there’s a reasonable ask for children developmentally to be at the dinner table, and then there’s a tipping point to where it’s going to become a tug, and it’s going to turn into more like dog training, yes or obedience training, right? And so again, that was a whole other conversation that we had to have. And the compromise was, how about we let them maybe have some power and voice, and when they feel like they’re done, and then they ask us, may I be excused, which seemed really polite, yes. And so my husband was like, I can get behind that. I think that’s a good way to go. And then we get to decide, you know, we didn’t want them inhaling their food, to just get back outside and play, because maybe the neighbors wanted to play or whatever. And so we always said friends have to go home during dinner hour. They can’t be waiting outside the door, because that’s going to promote them inhaling their food, but they would sit for a bit. We’d have our gratitude, we’d have our food. And then when they were real little, they don’t have a lot of sit. And then beyond that. And so they could ask, may I be excused? Yes, you may be excused. And they had to then take their plate and set it up by the sink, or whatever their routine is, but that was their job.

 

Kristina  18:22

And in our house, same as asking, “May I be excused? Sometimes, the answer was no, not yet,

 

Heather  18:30

Because we’re going to dot, dot, right?

 

Kristina  18:33

But when the meal has moved to a place where it’s just the grown-ups talking, I think, yes, go play. That’s the best thing for your body and your brain. Go play. We’re talking yet, but you can move on to the next activity.

 

Heather  18:47

Absolutely. I wanna just acknowledge that these basics that we talk about can impact one another, like food, can become attachment and connection time, right? And it depends how you set it all up, your time outside and your scheduled activities can also be double dipping into your connection. Time, absolutely, screen time is one of those things that we have to be really mindful of, adult and child, that it isn’t taking away from our connection.

 

Kristina  19:32

And that can be tricky, because there are these games, I don’t happen to play them, but my daughter loves to play these games that are interactive, that, you know, she and my husband, you can be doing it together, right? So it’s not like, oh, screens are always bad. There can be this lovely time of connection while you’re engaged in this activity together. And then there’s also the opportunity for it to be a separator. 

 

Heather  20:03

Yeah, that we’re all just in on our screens, that we’re in a space together, but nobody’s really connected or tuned into one another, looking at one another. So that’s the risk. Yes, really.

 

Kristina  20:14

And it is a slippery slope, that screen time is something that in our lives, I need to stay really mindful of because it’s really easy. I’m old enough that I still really use Facebook. I don’t even use Instagram yet, and I can get to scrolling, and all of a sudden, all this time has gone by, and I think my child was awake. She was in the same room, and I’m not even looking at her. We may be talking about things, but really I’m focused on the screen, so I need to remain mindful of that. I know all this stuff about what happens to your brain when you’re on screens too much. I mean, there are studies coming out all the time. There was one recently that talked about based on the amount of screen time that you have, the more screen time, the less myelination of the neurons in your brain. Holy Moly, the myelination super important because it helps the speed of the communication between the neurons in your brain. That’s really important. Well, the more screens you’re exposed to, the less of that myelination there is. So you’re gonna have slower communication between the neurons in your brain. That’s a big deal. Yeah, right. Know all those things, and yet, oh, those screens are seductive. What is put in front of us. What is put in front of our children is meant to keep us hooked.

 

Heather  21:44

I remember when we were interviewing for positions last year that we had a teacher, and it was a kindergarten teacher that we were interviewing the school that I work at is on a nature center, and we’re very pro-outdoors and play and all of those things. And she was a traditional school kindergarten teacher, and said, I put paper down in front of the children, and they all could use their crayons or their colored pencil, whatever they liked, and I just asked them to draw something from their summer. And she said, for the first time ever, I had a child take their finger and put it to the paper like they were swiping and had expected something to be drawn and to be produced from their finger on paper like it was a screen. It’s kind of staggering. 

 

Kristina  22:41

It is staggering. I do it. The older I get, the worse my eyesight is. And when the text is so small, and I’ll put my little fingers on it, and I’ll think, I can’t zoom it out with my fingers, can I that’s, that’s actually text in a book or a magazine or a medicine bottle and nuts.

 

Heather  22:58

I can’t stretch it, I can’t stretch it!

 

Kristina  23:00

I can’t zoom in on it. So those things are affecting all of us and our culture. And paying attention to what we’re doing on the screens. How rapid the movement is that we’re watching. Are there lights? Are things moving, you know, at triple speed. My husband and I like to bring the old shows back and show our daughter like Mork and Mindy, or, you know, MASH. We don’t let her watch MASH. Well, she’s old enough now that she could watch it, but not in the old days.

 

Heather  23:36

And all of my kids went through Andy Griffith.

 

Kristina  23:39

Yes, Andy Griffith. Us too. But those move at a very different pace than a lot of what’s produced currently.

 

Heather  23:46

Some of them are in black, white. Yes, they sure are. Uh huh. And I think the really important thing to remember as a parent, and I had to remind myself of this all the time, is there is no benefit in a screen. Like always, the greater benefit is a human interaction. And so we can think like, oh, Daniel Tiger is adorable, and it teaches social skills, not better social skills than a human being with a child, a grandparent, a parent, any human interaction is more powerful than a screen interaction, and that was always something that I tried to remind myself of. And again, the days are long, but those years are short, and so it goes back to we’re going to miss this we’re going to want this back. We’re going to wish these days hadn’t gone by so fast. And the reminder of, how am I choosing to spend my days? And for me, that wasn’t a. Much of a thing with screens, but it was a thing with the laundry and the cleaning of the house and those types of things, because I like a clean house, even if there’s DNA in my Lego bins that’s put away. I like things to be clean. I like my house to be orderly. It helps my brain feel decluttered and orderly. But my risk was choosing that over taking the time to stop and be present with my children and screens. The same exact thing can happen. You can choose to get lost in that, or let your kids get lost in that, because it can become an easy babysitter.

 

Kristina  25:43

It can. And it’s something that we as parents need to decide, for our own family, for ourselves and for our children, what’s going to be our norm with screens in our own home? I don’t want to communicate ever that screens are evil. Screens are bad, right? You know, get them out of here-

 

Heather  26:01

Because then anything that becomes so much more appealing to the child, then, because anything we put off limits, it’s like, “Oh, why? I want more of that.” Now, all of a sudden, just because you said it’s like the last one on the shelf, I want it. I didn’t even want it ten minutes ago. It’s the last one now I want it, right?

 

Kristina  26:16

So we need to figure that out, right? As parents, what’s going to work for our family being mindful of what we know about the impact of screens on the developing brain. What we know about the impact of screens in contributing to a sedentary lifestyle, what we know about the impact of screens in the dissolution of connectedness with other people. We know those things, and yet, for my house, with the only child, there is more screen use, certainly, than in yours, but making choices, especially when she was younger, about what she would consume on the screen, doing that as often as we could together so that we could talk about what she was learning if she was watching Wild Kratts. We loved that she learned a ton about nature and all living things through that show. And being able to have conversations about that. But also, I did need to go do the laundry, and she was lovely. She could play on her own, and she also used screens. 

 

Heather  27:21

So it’s about setting your limits. It is what are your boundaries, and then sticking to them.

 

Kristina  27:26

So one of the things that I think is helpful to know is that, well, first of all, there’s a difference between Facetiming grandma or Zooming with the cousins and being engaged in some of these really, really high energy things that are fast to level up.

 

Heather  27:43

Yeah, level up, level up, like a dopamine casino. Yes, it is. 

 

Kristina  27:49

And that’s what’s important to be aware of, is that that type of screen usage for young children will always say you’ve got about twenty minutes give or take before in their brain, there’s a dump of something called dopamine, and dopamine is a feel good drug. Man, when we have that dopamine dump, we just want more. We want more. It becomes a really addictive feeling. Dopamine is the same drug that gets dumped in our brains when you gamble or when you’re taking certain drugs or alcohol. Yep, absolutely. So it’s why, when we have our children engaging with screens, there are times when they can give them up without much of a fuss, and other times, when they are like little addicts and you’re trying to take their drugs.

 

Heather  28:47

That brain wants what that brain wants, and they’ll come out swinging. 

 

Kristina  28:51

They sure will, because we’ve had the dopamine dump. So we encourage parents to really pay attention. Do not dance with the devil and go right up to twenty minutes. If you know twenty minutes is your child’s limit, back it up to eighteen, and then, you know, set an alarm to remind you that that’s when it needs to end and we need to take that screen and have a break before going back to it. 

 

Heather  29:14

Do you remember the family? This was years ago in a parenting class that had said Santa had brought their children iPads?

 

Kristina  29:23

Yes.

 

Heather  29:24

And she was like, “Oh, it has changed them.” And it hadn’t been, I think it was still like, January, yeah, it wasn’t long. And so she had to go back and be like, “Santa made a mistake. He didn’t know.”

 

Kristina  29:41

Yeah, he didn’t know. And I remember. Yes, I do remember that family and mom implemented a fifteen minute rule. You can have fifteen minutes on screens, and then we’re taking a break, which is what we did in my house as well. I made these little magnets that were each worth fifteen minutes, and Grace got the magnets. And she could choose when she was going to use them, but she couldn’t use them back to back, because fifteen minutes was the limit, unless it was Daniel Tiger’s Neighborhood, a show like that, which is just slower and a darling,  little educational show. So then she could, you know, use two of them back to back. But otherwise, it’s like, if you’re playing a game, or if you’re engaged in, like we were talking about before, the technology that’s really fast and really engaging and sucks you in and get all levels. She can only do it at fifteen minutes at a time. Because that’s what my kid needed before the dopamine dump. And then she was able to hand it over. I mean, she wasn’t thrilled about it, but it’s like, “Oh, the fifteen minutes is up. Okay.” As opposed to if we went to like twenty-two. Oh, man, that was not gonna go easy. And it might end up with the screen getting chucked across the room. I mean, literally, it’s like a different person after you’ve had that dump of dopamine.

 

Heather  31:01

And fun fact: since we’re talking about brain chemistry, saying to your child at the fifteen minute mark when they hand it over really well,  saying “You were able to do that really well. That’s super helpful.” Yes. And having a little hug and a high five well done, serotonin is released happy chemical. Also going outside, being in the sunshine, running and playing, being in nature, serotonin release is a happy chemical. So there are really good brain chemical releases that can happen. We just want them to be the right kind. And the dopamine is one we need to just be aware of, because it can radically alter the brain wants what the brain wants. It’s not the child’s fault. It’s the child’s brain reacting. Ding, ding.

 

Kristina  31:49

And unfortunately, sometimes we respond like the child’s choosing it.

 

Heather  31:53

Like they’re just a prisoner to what’s happening in their brain. 

 

Kristina  31:57

Absolutely. It’s not that they’re choosing to be ugly about it or to have a fit about it. They’re not choosing that. That’s what’s happening within their brain. And that’s when, again, for me, I needed to take a look and say, I didn’t set the alarm. I let it go too long. I was on the phone. I was doing whatever. 

 

Heather  32:19

Because that can happen. It’s like, “Oh, I cleaned one bathroom too many. Yes, and now I’m gonna have to pay for that. Yep. So now we’re all gonna go outside and run that out.”

 

Kristina  32:29

And instead of punishing the child, being able to view them with compassion, like, “Oh, my lands, yes, you just we do those things as parents.”

 

Heather  32:37

We all do them. Yes, sometimes it’s like, I know I’m dancing with the devil and I’m just gonna do it a minute because I need to whatever you need to do. And that happens to all of us, but not blaming the child, right? And being like, “, I know the consequence of this action, and now I’m paying it dearly.”

 

Kristina  33:00

Yes, and I have compassion for you, child, that this is really hard for you to give up. And so I’m here with you in the midst of that, and we can shift to doing something else that’s going to, again, release that serotonin and get us to a better place. And so, like you had said, it’s important to get back to those basics and say, What is attachment like? How are we sleeping? How’s the appetite? What is being eaten? What kinds of fluids are we taking in? How much time are we outside? We know as parents that spending time outside is good for children’s physical health, their emotional health. 

 

Heather  33:43

Being outside is a natural regulator. It is for both child and adult. If you ever think about if you’ve got the little one and they’re fussy and cranky and maybe are at a birthday party and it’s a little over stimulating in the house, because there are lots of people there. What do people do when the weather is nice outside, they take the child and they go outside, and all of a sudden they’re watching the wind move the leaves on the tree, and you’re pointing something out, and that child quiets, and that adult calms. Nature has a beautiful way of just resting the central nervous system and aligning your breath with maybe the wind or the bird song or the tree frogs, it ignites our senses, which calms our central nervous system. So that’s a wonderful thing to do. Have children play outside. I’ll say that to teachers in the classroom, when children are maybe struggling like go back outside, everything will calm, and they do we spend a lot of time outside for that very reason. 

 

Kristina  34:51

Oh yeah. And teachers will say that child’s a different child outside than they are when we are on beyond days-

 

Heather  34:56

When the whole day is. Outside of the fence, in the beyond-

 

Kristina  35:02

In the forest. Yes, yep, they’re magical times.

 

Heather  35:07

So when we see behavioral shifts, we spend time focusing on those basics, looking at how’s our attachment and connection with our child? How much one on one, how much individual time are we spending with them. What is our schedule like? What’s the rhythm of our day? Are we over scheduled? Are we under scheduled? Do we have enough time outside? Are we being physically active? How much screen time is everyone getting,

 

Kristina  35:35

And how much sleep is the household getting?

 

Heather  35:38

and what are we putting in our bodies? And we can think that you go through them as a checklist, and it’s like, “Oh, check. Did that. Check. Did that.” But really, when you look at, are we over scheduled impacts, maybe, how much time you’re just getting in play outside, right? Or what you’re eating because how much you’re sleeping, yeah, are you eating in the van on the run because you’re in a hurry to get to your next thing, and does that impact then your sleep as well?

 

Kristina  36:08

So we can talk about these basics in isolation, but truly they’re all woven together.

 

Heather  36:15

Yes, because our screen time also can very much impact our rest time, or our sleep time and our activity level. 

 

Kristina  36:21

I often wished that some of – my husband’s a big Star Trek fan, and they have those little like readers that you can just scan a body and it’ll tell you exactly what it is. Right? Our children don’t have those, but getting back to those basics and exploring and looking for clues within the basics is a great place to start. Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina-

 

Heather  36:50

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. 

 

Kristina  36:56

Until next time: see you on the trails!  The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  37:13

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  37:20

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  37:33

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature to learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCnetwork.org.

Episode 5: Being The Detective / Chasing The “Why,” Part 1 of 2

 

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina discuss the concept of “being the detective” in understanding behavior changes in children. They emphasize the importance of considering basic clues such as diet, sleep, screen time, physical activity, and attachment. They highlight how life changes like moving homes or the arrival of a new sibling can impact children’s behavior. The conversation underscores the need for empathy, patience, and a support system. They stress the significance of not jumping to conclusions and instead considering why behavioral changes make sense. Examples include things like allergies, ear infections, and family dynamics that might not be the obvious reason behind a sudden shift in a child’s behavior. They also advocate for maintaining routines and the importance of seeking professional help when needed.

“We’re like this ping pong going back and forth, and instead of really taking a breath and searching for the “why, “ we’re just reacting…many times out of a place of fear.”

 

Challenges of Parenting and Reacting to Behavior Changes

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges of parenting and the tendency to react out of fear in the face of sudden behavior shifts in our kids.
  • Kristina shares her experience of reacting to her child’s behavior without understanding the underlying causes.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the impact of parental behavior on children’s behavior and the importance of not pathologizing things too quickly.
  • The conversation touches on the role of internet searches in exacerbating parental anxiety and the importance of taking a breath and searching for the “why” behind these sudden behavior changes.

Kristina:

“So when we talk about why it’s important to talk about this, it is because it happens to everybody. It’s because we worry about things like crazy as parents raising children in this world, and many times we fall into this place of it being really important to us that others view us as parents and our children as having it all together, right?…So that pressure to appear like we’ve got it all together, when maybe we don’t.”

 

Heather:

“None of us do.” 

The Importance of Attachment and Basic Needs

  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of attachment and connection with primary caregivers.
  • Heather shares her experience of dealing with behavioral changes in her children due to her grandparents’ illnesses.
  • Kristina talks about the impact of family routines and schedules on children’s behavior.
  • The conversation highlights the need to consider basic needs like diet, sleep, and screen time when dealing with behavioral changes.

“So when we talk about “getting back to the basics,” these are the things we’re talking about: We’re talking about attachment and connection. We’re talking about how we fill our days and our schedule. We’re talking about what we put in our bodies. We’re talking about how much sleep is the child getting. We think about how much time we’re spending out in nature and how much time we’re spending in front of a screen, as that impacts behavior hugely.”

 

Understanding and Addressing Behavioral Shifts

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of understanding why behavioral shifts make sense in the context of a child’s life.
  • Kristina shares a story of a parent whose child’s behavior changed after a family member became ill, emphasizing the need to consider family dynamics.
  • Heather talks about the importance of normalizing discomfort and reassuring children during times of change.
  • The conversation includes examples of how children’s behavior can be impacted by physical discomfort, such as ear infections.

 

The Role of the Support Village and Professional Help

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of having a support village that includes friends and professionals who can offer advice and reassurance.
  • Heather emphasizes the need to rule out physical causes of behavioral changes and the importance of seeking professional help when needed.

 

Impact of Life Changes on Children’s Behavior

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how significant life changes, such as moving homes or job changes, can impact children’s behavior.
  • Kristina shares her experience of her child’s behavior changing when her husband traveled frequently.
  • Heather talks about the impact of new siblings on older children and the importance of reassuring them of their place in the family.
  • The conversation includes examples of how children’s behavior can be impacted by changes in their routine and environment.

 

Normalizing Behavioral Changes and Seeking Help

  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of normalizing behavioral changes and, again, seeking help when needed.
  • Kristina shares her experience of keeping a calendar to track her child’s sleep and behavior changes to better understand the patterns.
  • Heather talks about the importance of reassuring children during times of change and normalizing their feelings.
  • The conversation highlights the need to consider all possible factors when dealing with behavioral changes and to seek professional help when needed.

 

Further Reading :

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 5: Being The Detective / Chasing The “Why”, Part 1 of 2

 

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re diving into a two-part series on what we like to call “Being the Detectives.” This concept is all about understanding behavior changes in our kids.

 

Kristina  00:10

It’s about chasing the “why” – trying to solve the mystery of what’s behind our children’s behavior so we can better support them and approach them with more understanding.

 

Heather  00:20

And to crack the case, we need to consider some basic clues, like checking on our child’s diet, sleep, amount of screen time, physical activity, and especially our attachment with them. 

 

Kristina  00:31

It’s amazing what a little snack can do. We’ve all been there.

 

Heather  00:35

We’ll also discuss how life changes, such as new schools, moving houses, even a new sibling or pet in the home can really throw our children off course.

 

Kristina  00:45

So when our kids act out, we want to think, “Hmm, what’s really going on here?” And help check on some basics when we’re searching for clues.

 

Heather  00:55

We’ll talk about how having a solid support system in these moments is so crucial –  friends, family and professionals can offer insights we might not have thought of. 

Kristina  01:05

We’ll also talk about how empathy, patience and a little compassion for what our children are going through can make a world of difference. After all, we want our kids to feel secure and understood exactly. Let’s do this.

 

Heather  01:24

Welcome to “Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood!”

Kristina  01:27

A Podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boesma.

 

Heather  01:40

And I’m Heather Bouwman.Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  02:02

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  02:08

Are you ready?

 

Kristina  02:09

Let’s hit the trails. 

 

Heather  02:15

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:28

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives.  

 

Heather  02:36

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

Kristina, today, we are talking about being the detective in our own homes, and this is something that you and I actively did and still do as we’re raising our kids. We sure do, but when they were littler. It’s trickier because they don’t have as many words, and they maybe aren’t even verbal yet, right? You’ve had to unpack things with Grace long before she could speak. I did as well. 

 

Kristina  03:13

I often wished there was a control panel like on her back that I could open up and be like

 

Heather  03:18

A reset button?

 

Kristina  03:20

Yes, yes, with the reset button, or at least, you know, lights that would flash like “lack of sleep, code 4B7, and you go to the manual. “Oh, they’re getting sick.”

 

Heather  03:27

Yes, it doesn’t work like that, because it’s really tricky when we see behavioral changes and we wonder, “Why is this happening? Is this me? Is this them? Am I doing something? Am I off track as a parent? Is there something wrong with my child developmentally?” 

 

Kristina  03:53

Well and that’s where I think we go as parents, at least I did as a parent, very quickly to “there is something wrong,” there’s something wrong, and then that changes my behavior, which in turn changes the child’s behavior,

 

Heather  04:07

In response to your switches, right? 

 

Kristina  04:11

We’re like this ping pong going back and forth, and instead of really taking a breath and searching for the “why,” I’m just reacting. Or we as parents are just reacting many times out of a place of fear.

 

Heather  04:28

Yeah, we maybe tend to want to pathologize things a little too quickly.

 

Kristina  04:35

Well, Googling doesn’t help it. 

 

Heather  04:37

Oh my. Right. Oh, oftentimes it doesn’t. 

 

Kristina  04:40

No. no, not when we’re coming from that place of fear, fear, yeah.

 

Heather  04:44

And then we’re losing sleep, and then our anxiety is going up more. And like you said, ifour behavior changes, the behavior of the people around us naturally changes as well, because all of a sudden we’re off, and then that impacts them, and then they’re more off, right? And then we’re just in this reactive space with each other.

 

Kristina  05:04

One of the reasons that it’s important to me, and I know to you as well, to really talk about being the detective in your home and chasing that “why” is because every family goes through this. Every parent and caretaker of children will go through this, where there’s a shift in the child’s behavior, and there’s a space of saying, “What is happening? Why is it happening? And what do I need to do about it, right?” So being able to talk about some of the struggles that our children have and how we can help support them through that struggle is really about understanding what is happening, what is prompting this. As children develop, they will go through periods where things kind of line up and all click and they’re feeling confident in the skills that they have, and that’s beautiful. But as they move into a different space where they’re acquiring new skills, the terrain can get a little bumpy. It gets uncomfortable. It does. And so you see shifts in behavior. And I’ve said before, right? Children come into your life, and we have guilt and we have fear, and I was always worried that there was something that was seriously wrong, and lots of really typical behavior with children when they’re going through these times of acquiring new skills can look like things that we would clinically diagnose.

 

Heather  06:29

Absolutely. I remember learning that my boys had allergies and how that impacted not only their bodies and how their bodies felt. We live in the woods, and we have a lot of oak trees around us, and they’re black oak trees, and they’re they release a whole lot of stuff. And my kids would get like, almost like they looked uncomfortable in their body, like rolly shoulders, and when I looked closely like they did actually have some reactions on their backs and their skin, and it’s like us when we have a cold or maybe a sinus infection that impacts our behavior. And my kids were experiencing that. They were crabbier. They were just less tolerant. They didn’t feel good. But you know, there’s not a three year old in the world that can say, “Mommy, I’m all stuffed up. I got the allergies.” They just don’t talk like that, right? They’re just itching their eyes and trying to figure it all out, and they can’t breathe as well, maybe. And that journey for me was quite a journey to be like, “Oh, we got to get them some help, because they are not feeling well.”

 

Kristina  07:40

So when we talk about why it’s important to talk about this, it is because it happens to everybody. It’s because we worry about things like crazy as parents raising children in this world, and many times we fall into this place of it being really important to us that others view us as parents and our children as having it all together, right? So there can be this pressure to say, “Come on, act right. Act right vecause other people are going to think there’s something wrong with you,” or that I’ve really messed up as a parent. So that pressure to appear like we’ve got it all together, when maybe we don’t.

 

Heather  08:25

Nobody does.

 

Kristina  08:27

It’s all just smoke and mirrors, that’s what I figured out. Yeah. So let’s talk about, how do we do that? How do we chase the “why?” Where do we start? Maybe all of a sudden, they were a very easy going child, and all of a sudden they’ve started hitting or biting, and you think, “Oh, my word. What do we do with this?” So talk us through. We always say, you gotta first get back to the basics. 

 

Heather  08:55

Yes. Going back to the basics is what we want to naturally do when we’re in those moments of our breath is catching, maybe the temperature is rising, and we think, “what is happening here?” Don’t go to Google. Go back to your basics and think about: “How’s my attachment?” How’s the attachment with my child? Am I spending the same amount of time with them that I have been we talk about.I’m going to give you the –  I think there’s kind of like five  – so it’s attachment that we look at, and we’ll unpack that a bit more. How are they eating? What are we putting in their bodies? What are they taking in? What are they drinking? How much are they drinking sleep? How much sleep are they getting? How much deep, uninterrupted sleep, long stretches? Are they waking early? Are they going to bed at a good time? How long are those things taking, really taking a good look at sleep. Screen time is a big one. And man, oh man, do screens just seem to get more and more prevalent in our world and in our homes and in our families. Thinking about how old your children are, how much screen time is reasonable? What type of screen time that is makes a big difference. We’ll talk more specifically about that. Movement, just in general. How much movement are they getting how much quality time outside? What is their play like? Do they have time to play? Are they over-scheduled? Are they in a lot of extracurriculars that maybe aren’t getting them enough free play and imaginary play is it all just really scheduled? Let’s go back to attachment for a minute, okay, and talk about how paramount that is to children. It’s one of those foundational things we’ve said before. Attachment to primary caregivers for children surpasses even food and water in importance. And it truly does. And quality time is something that is so meaningful and necessary to them. We all have challenges. We all have things that are going to pull us from being able to be in our routines, in our home that are going to pull us from having some of that quality time with our children. Work travel could be one thing. That was one thing for my husband. He had to build in certain times with our children at certain parts of the day because of his schedule on the daily I was at home with our kids during that time. But I distinctly remember a time in my life where my grandparents, who were incredibly important to my husband and I and to our family in general, were both very ill, and there were extended hospital stays, and that took me who was the primary caregiver for my kids all day out of our home in these big chunks of time, and so I would be at the hospital with my family. I would be away, I’d probably miss bedtime, and they’d be out of their normal routine, and then maybe I’d be gone before they got up the next morning. And so it wasn’t the typical that they were used to. I have to know in those moments I’m going to see a behavioral shift. And I’m going to feel that too. I’m going to be more exhausted. Sometimes we can trick ourselves into thinking that children are mini adults, they’re not. I had high expectations for my kids. They were really, really good, capable, competent children, but they’re not miniature adults. And they don’t have their whole brain, right? They don’t have nearly as many tools and coping skills as I have as an adult. And so, of course, when I had those things happening in my life, I’m going to see behavioral changes in my kids, because their routine has now been pretty significantly altered for quite a few days in a row. And so I can expect they’re going to be more clingy. They’re going to be more needy when I’m there. I’m going to hear more whining. And I may have a much diminished capacity to deal with that. So , for me, in those moments, it’s saying to myself, “This is okay. This is a season. Probably a pretty short season in life. This isn’t gonna last forever, and we’ll get back to where we were. But why do all of these behaviors make sense right now?” And that’s something we encourage parents to ask themselves when they see a behavioral shift. And I asked a parent to do this one time, and  she was so frustrated with her darling, sweet little boy. And he, oh, he was such a spitfire. 

 

Kristina

I love those. 

 

Heather

Oh, I do too. They’re my favorite. He was such a spitfire and wildly hilarious. But she thought, “Oh, I’m gonna be really tired the rest of my life.” And she wasn’t wrong. I mean, it was gonna be some work to keep up. She was gonna be in really good physical shape. But when I said to her, “So think about all the reasons that his behavior makes sense,” she came back to me and kind of burst through the door in my office and was like “Heather, three pages. I have three pages of why this makes sense. And this activity was so powerful because I am seeing so much with what my son is going through.” They had traveled out of the country for the holidays, stayed with family, kind of in this one big, huge space all together. Over the holidays, there were like 12 or 15 people all in the same room. Mattresses thrown on floors. She’s like, “He had all of these loving, wonderful people around him. Then we came back to the States. He’s away from that extended family. He has to go back to sleeping in his room by himself.” She’s like, “It makes perfect sense, right?” It makes perfect sense. And she had all these other things on there, and that is a powerful thing for us to as a parent. In the midst of all of these behavioral changes, or even just one significant one that you see with your child, to say, “Why might this make perfect sense? I’m going to sit down and just think about that, right? Maybe jot these things down right?”

 

Kristina  15:54

And remembering all behavior is communication. So instead of leaping to “there’s something wrong with my kid. I think that I might be responsible. What are we going to do?” 

 

Heather  16:08

“I’m doing a terrible job, and I’m not a good parent. I’m not good at this,” right?

 

Kristina  16:11

Instead, taking that breath and saying, “Let me consider why this behavior makes perfect sense.” So when we think about how are the basics? Is there anything that needs tending? Do we need to look at sleep? Have we been over scheduled and looking at those things? That’s a great place to start. Have there been shifts in the family routine? We were fortunate enough growing up that my grandmother lived with us on and off many times over the years, and that was such a gift, and it disrupted the routine. I wouldn’t change it for the world, but being aware that some of those things shift the dynamics in the home. They absolutely do. I was very aware of it. My husband traveled a lot, especially when Grace was young. Well, he still does. But the shift that would occur when he left and when he returned. And you’d think, “But we’re just happy that he’s home.” Yes, we’re happy that he’s home and 

 

Heather  17:22

It’s another person back in the house to get used to. 

 

Kristina  17:25

We learned this, I mean, many, many years ago in grad school, that oftentimes the child is what we call the “symptom-bearer.”  So we look to a child whose behavior has shifted, and we think there’s something wrong with them. And, many times, that shift in behavior is simply alerting the family to there being a shift or change in the family. But because the others within the family either are responsible for the shift or, at the very least, have more coping skills to manage the shift or the change. You see the behavior crop up in the child, and too often, we focus on what’s wrong with the child, instead of saying, “Huh, what kinds of things have happened here in our lives, in our home, with our routine, with our schedule, that may be causing this behavior to emerge?” I recently was talking to a parent and her child had, oh, he’s an amazing kid, hilarious, bright, so curious and inquisitive, and he began to display behaviors that had been extinguished. So he had had a challenge with controlling his impulses. He liked to move through spaces, kind of like he was a jungle explorer, going through the vines and the plants and pushing them aside, but they were people and not plants. So he had learned a lot about how to move through spaces and how to embody the pause between stimulus, input and reactivity. So being able to have input and then pause so he could respond. Beautiful. Making tremendous gains. So, all of a sudden, we had a re-emergence of behaviors that had long been extinguished: hitting was back. Biting was back. Kicking was back. And the parent was deeply concerned and was like, “You know, we need to have a neuro-psych. We’ve got to get that kid evaluated. Can I get him in O.T.,  P.T., therapy? What are we going to do here? Does he need medication?” All these things. Because this is not how your child can go through the world. So there’s a lot of fear there. And when we sat down and thought about it, it was the case that a family member had become ill. And it doesn’t always take a lot. That member wasn’t even living within the home, but there was more energy going toward the care of the ill family member, less going toward the child. And so that attachment had been weakened. And I remember saying to the mom, “Okay, so it’s been three days of this re-emergence of behaviors. Three days. Let’s zoom back out and say he does have the skills. There’s something that’s keeping him from exhibiting those skills right now. So let’s chase the ‘why.’” And it was that there’s this ill family member. And, lo and behold, that was recognized, attention could be shifted back to that attachment, and the behaviors were no longer present. 

 

Heather  20:46

They were extinguished. Yeah, and that’s exactly what we mean when we say “behavior is communication.” His behavior was communicating what he couldn’t say with words. Children don’t just come up to us – it would be so great if they did, right? “Mommy, I really miss you. Could you just come sit with me because you’ve been taking care of so and so and I miss you?” Yeah. That’d be great. Yeah. No child ever in the history of the world has ever said that.

 

Kristina  21:12

No. They just bite you.

 

Heather  21:15

Which somehow attracts a very different response.

 

Kristina  21:18

It does. We don’t always respond to that with compassion in the moment as they’re locked onto our arm.

 

Heather  21:25

Exactly. So chasing the “why” in that case, you could walk that parent through that. And that was really wonderful, and it was figured out in a pretty short order. Some things take a little bit longer. Yes, I remember my little Luke, who I nursed for 364 days, when he got to 365 and it was his birthday, I set the sippy cup down on his high chair tray with cow’s milk, and he took a drink of that and looked at me in a way that said, “I’m not having this. What is happening here?” He looked at me like I had cheated on him, and I looked back at him like, “No, no, no, darling, that ship has sailed. Welcome to cow’s milk.” And we did this dance for a little bit. And eventually I realized after like, we’re gonna go 50/50, I’m not gonna nurse this child anymore. We’re done. And really being feeling like I made it. I did what I wanted to do, and now we’re moving on. And he was like, “No, we’re not, we’re not moving on,” right? So I was mixing the milk and putting it in the sippy, and lo and behold, this was my child who had a dairy allergy. So, it took a bit to figure that out. He was uncomfortable. But Luke was not my child that was very good at showing me his discomfort. He was the child that I could take to the doctor for his checkup at nine months, and she would be like, “Has he been eating well and sleeping well? Yeah, great. Well, he has a double ear infection. “Has he been behaving the same way?” I’m like, “Yeah.” Happy go lucky kid just didn’t communicate those things as readily as other children did. But when he defiantly decided he wasn’t going to drink cow’s milk, he knew something about himself that I didn’t. It upset his tummy. 

 

Kristina  23:27

And your response to that is wildly different if you think “this child is simply being defiant. They’re being stubborn and they need to get over themselves, because I am the parent.” Yeah, very different response than “What are they trying to tell me? Why would this behavior make perfect sense?”

 

Heather  23:46

Yes, we ended up on goat’s milk. I thought I was gonna have to buy one and milk it. Goat’s milk is expensive. 

 

Kristina  23:55

I can see you doing it, though. Yeah, if you needed to, that’s what you do.

 

Heather  24:00

I always did want a goat, and my husband said, “The first time I come home and that thing is standing on my truck, it’s not gonna end well for the goat.” I was like, “You know what? Let’s not go there. Let’s not find out how this story ends.” 

 

Kristina  24:22

I love it. So sometimes we see a shift in behavior because our child is ill, like you said about Luke and the allergy to dairy, and we just don’t know it yet, I know that you have – I love when you tell the story-

 

Heather  24:47

Yes, I have a family member who I love and adore, and is very near and dear to me, and she has a little one, and we’re very close, so she can call me and say things like, “I need your help. My child is demonic.” And I’m like, “Honey, your child is darling. She is just so sweet.” And she’s like, “She’s not. If you don’t believe me, come and spend some time with her.” And I will say, “What’s happening?” I don’t know. She just wants to argue with me about everything. She’s always my little helper. She’s my shadow. She loves to do the things and today she’s just contrary. Everything is a fight. Everything is just a disagreement. Everything and nothing at all is a disagreement. Like we just can’t get anything done. We can’t get to a place. She needs to be by her all the time. She’s so clingy. She’s never like this. How she’s sleeping? Not good. The last four nights, I’ve been up, like, four times in the night, and it’s been awful. Okay, how’s she eating? Huh? I haven’t, maybe, maybe not great. Okay, have you asked her for ears hurt? No. You always know that. How do you always know that? Like, well, three kids, they’ve all had ear troubles. The thing we talk about ear infections a lot on here, guys, the thing with ear infections is it takes fluid in the inner ear that has to develop and sit over some time before it actually becomes an infection. But for some kids, that fluid in the ear that’s enough to just be uncomfortable. It’s pressure, but then eventually, when that becomes infected. It sits like pond water, right? And eventually the bacteria grows in there, and it gets more uncomfortable. Those ear infections can take some time. And I think what I realized as a parent was, for children, it can be a really slow progression. And they can kind of adapt to that pain and maybe grow used to it a bit, and just they don’t know. They have no awareness of this isn’t normal. They just think, “Oh, everybody has ears that hurts, or everybody blah, blah, blah.” And I will say, as even a grown up, face pain is personality altering for children and adults. I think for children like they sometimes just don’t know where that pain is coming from, and it’s almost more like just an irritant, and then we have to look at their behavior. Because they’re responding like something is just an irritant, and so that’s where my sweet little family member was feeling like everything was a fight. Everything was a fight. And then she would call the doctor, take her, and she’s like, “Guess what? Double ear infection.” Yeah, she’s got the one little peanut, and she’s gotten to the point now where she her first thing always says, like, “ears.” “She’s a monster. Ears. We’re gonna get her ears checked.” And then she’ll get them checked. And she’s like, “Oh, no, it’s not her ears. Now what?” But it’s that journey of looking at, how is she sleeping? How did we figure that out? Right? I asked her, “How has her sleep been the last few nights? What’s her food intake been like. Is everything a fight? Is she able to be content and play on her own?” No, she’s super clingy. Major switch. This is a child who loves to play and can play for hours in her own worlds. So those are big behavioral shifts. So being able to say “something’s happening here, yeah, and it’s not that all of a sudden, overnight, she has just become this child who can’t endure or be away from her parent. There’s something happening, right?”

 

Kristina  28:52

I remember times when I’ve been ill, and I think this is common. I think many of us parents experience this when we’re ill. Wouldn’t it be lovely if the children were just really independent and quiet and compliant on those days. And yet I remember like being on the couch and thinking, “Oh, you are killing me today. I have no capacity. I’m so ill.” And yet, my child’s behavior is worse than it is on any other day.

 

Heather  29:25

Do you remember coming to my house where I was flat in bed? We had gone out for lunch the day before. You added something different than me. I had a salad.

 

Kristina  29:40

It was bad guys.

 

Heather  29:41

It was real bad. It was twleve hours of out one end and then twelve hours out the other. It was not pretty. No, it was like, it was ugly in there. And I called you, and do you remember? Travis was gone? And I called you because my mom, my own mother, was like “No thanks.” And I’m thinking, Ava was three. I’m thinking she’s probably cracking eggs on the kitchen floor. I have no idea. I couldn’t get out of bed. And if I did, it was like stuff was happening. 

 

Kristina  30:14

So I throw all caution to the wind. I remember going in in my hazmat suit.

 

Heather  30:21

So funny. I remember calling you and saying, “Please come and get my child.” And you were like, “I’m on my way right now. I’m coming. I’m on my way.” And then you got there, and you came in my bedroom, and you were like, “It’s bad.” And I was like, “Girl, get out of here.” I don’t think I knew at that point yet it was food poisoning. I was like, “Save yourself. Don’t breathe this air.” And you’re like, “Ava’s fine. There are no cracked eggs anywhere.” I don’t know what she was doing – eating a granola bar and watching Doc McStuffins probably. She was pretty independent. Third born. She was fine. But you brought her to your home. And we need to be able to call our people in those moments, because even when your mother won’t come to help you, that was a smart call. I mean, eventually we found out it was food poisoning and nobody else got sick. Yeah. I mean, that’s hilarious. It is hilarious. She’s gonna listen to that and be like, “Of course you had to say that.”

 

Kristina  31:24

Yeah. Well. So it’s a beautiful example, Heathe,  of how our village is so important. Having others along with us on this parenting journey, so that we can call them and say “S.O.S.” Big time. Mama down. We need help over here. Or my kid’s demonic today and have somebody say, “Okay, take a breath.” They’re darling, right? “Take a breath. Let’s think through some things.” It’s important to be able to have somebody you can contact who can help give you the voice of reason and not those people that are like, “They’re still using a passy? Hmm,” or like, “They’re not riding a bike yet?”We don’t need those kinds of voices.

 

Heather  32:13

And we’re not saying there aren’t times that children will push the boundaries. Oh man, they will. And sometimes that’s just a boundary push, but we’re talking about like 180 degree shifts in behavior that would cause a parent to say, “My child is acting demonic.” Oh, okay, well, that’s something more consistent than just saying “no” or being a challenging child in a moment on a boundary. 

 

Kristina  32:39

I remember a good friend, mother of two, and her youngest was in kindergarten, and all of a sudden he just started dropping trow, like at school repeatedly. And she called me really concerned, like “He can’t keep his pants up. Every time they turn around, he’s dropping his pants” and assuring her it just means that developmentally, this is where it is. And it’s a great time to start talking about things we do in private and things we do around other people. But that fear of “why in the world can my child not keep his business in his pants? He keeps dropping them all the time in public places.” So leaping to that, and instead being able to phone a friend and say, “I’m concerned about this. Talk me off the ledge. Or also being able to call a person in your village and have them say, “I think that would be a great conversation to have with your pediatrician.” Because we also need that for those of us who can be the deniers, like, “Oh, it’s not a big deal.” Or it was just like, “It’ll work itself out.” Yeah, it’s not a problem. It’s not a problem. We need the people in our lives who can also say, “I think you’re right. I think it’s going to work itself out. But I also think it would be wise to have this conversation with this particular person. I’ll say oftentimes, let’s just rule it out. Let’s just rule whatever we think might be happening out. And if so, that’s great. And if it ends up that, you know, your child is struggling, like you know mine did, or mine does with ADHD. Ah, okay. Let’s not shame or try to continue to correct this behavior, which she has no control over. And, at that age, not able to, you know, kind of build those skills. So we need both in our village, the people that can talk us off the ledge and the people that can give us sometimes the hard information of “I think it would be a good idea to make that call.”

 

Heather  34:47

And we’re all going to have changes in our lives that we can’t control, and those are going to have impacts on us, on our children, but being able to know that attachment is so important. That what we have going into our kids bodies can impact their behavior. And how much water they’re drinking, and what they’re drinking, if it’s juice, if it’s pop, all of that has an impact on behavior. And so being able to go back to those basics and really think through in the midst of changes. I think about as adults, like, what do they say? The biggest stressors in life are like a new home and a new job and maybe getting married or having a child. The same is true for our children. Like when we move homes, that’s a huge shift for children. Some people pack up and move to a whole new state and maybe don’t have their support extended family there. Yes, that’s a big shift for children. It’s a big shift for adults. So, if we feel that as adults, you can bet your kids are going to feel that as well. Also job switches for parents also are big things for children. It impacts their availability to you and the time that you get with them. New siblings. We get lots of questions about new siblings. And oftentimes we’ll hear “Now my oldest is acting like a baby.” Of course they are. Because they see that the baby needs you all the time and needs you to feed it and to put it to bed and to diaper and all of those things. So, all of a sudden, the oldest is like, “Oh, I don’t want to be nearly as independent.”

 

Kristina  36:37

No. And I always think too that the children who are already in the family, when that new infant or child arrives, they’re the ones that have to switch roles, right? Mom is still mom, dad is still dad. But those children, it’s like, “Oh, I’m not the I’m not the baby anymore. Now I’m the oldest.” They’re having to shift their role, and that’s a tremendous change.

 

Heather  37:01

I noticed with the birth of my second and my third is when everybody comes to visit, those grandparents, who normally are just, I mean, let’s face it, your parents don’t care about you anymore. Once you have children, they absolutely about the children, right? Like, “Oh, hi,” and they see those children, but for that oldest and all of a sudden there’s that baby, and that’s taking everybody’s attention. Those are the moments as a parent to snuggle in real tight to the other child, who’s used to being the center of grandma and grandpa, aunts’ and uncles’ attention, but this new baby is all the everything. And those are the moments to snuggle in with that other one and be like, “You’re such a great big brother” or “You’re such a great big sister.” And remind them of their place in the family and how important they are. And I always talked with my kids, too, about it can be hard when everybody wants to come and just see this new baby. They still love you so much. And you know what? Once they start squawking and need a diaper change, they hand them right back. And then you get all that attention again, because you’re the big kid, and you don’t do that anymore. Because new siblings is a huge thing. Other huge shifts: getting rid of the pacifier. 

 

Kristina  38:20

Oh boy. Uh huh. Yeah. My child is a thumb sucker. Yep. Which is a different thing. You can’t, like, nip the top off of that.

 

Heather  38:29

No, no! I did. I cut the end off that passy one day. And Zack got in his little crib and sat up and looked at it and pulled it out, and he called it his “taby,” and said, “My taby is broken.” And I said, “What do you think about that?” And he stuck it in. It had that little stump. And he was like, “I can do it. I can make it work.” And he did for a little bit, and then it just went away. And then it was so funny, like, a month later, he found one, because kids stash them all everywhere, right? He found one, like in the ficus tree, in the base of it, and pulled it out and looked at it like, “I feel like I know you, but I don’t really know you.” And I was like, “We’re not going back to that.” Potty training is another big transitional time, and that’s an important piece. When kids make these big developmental leaps, they can feel like their ship isn’t steady, and so that’s when we as parents can come in and steady the ship and be the reminder of “It’s gonna pass. It feels a little different now. We’re gonna get through this. You’ve got this, I’ve got you.” Those reminders to kids, I think, are really powerful to be able to say, “You’re doing great. It’s okay. This is normal. “Normalizing some of that discomfort, I think, helps them calm down. And the fact that we can own that “we’ve got you” helps. 

 

Kristina  40:00

You know, I’ve spoken about the calendar I kept when Grace was younger, the first, I don’t know, six, seven, eight years of her life, where I would keep track of her sleep, because she struggles with sleep. And I would also keep track of these times of altered behavior, partly because I’m chasing the “why,” and partly because I, just again, needed something to bear witness. Because sometimes, in the midst of it, it feels like this has been going on forever and it’s never going to end. And those calendars, I still have them to be able to look through and say, “Yeah, that was a hard stretch, and it lasted for eleven days. And then that stretch was over, and things were resettled again, and we were back to a good place,” to not get lost in the midst of the tricky and the hard, but to be able to say, “Yep, acknowledge what it is. This is what it is.” Get back to checking your basics, phone a friend, take a breath and be able to remind yourself this is part of the journey. The terrain is tricky sometimes, and yet, with those things, being the detective chasing the “why,” considering why this behavior makes perfect sense is going to put you in a much better position. We as parents are in a much better position when we have those things to consider instead of, “Oh my god, is this who my child is and there’s something seriously wrong with them, and don’t let anybody else find out about it, because I need everyone to believe that we’re the perfect family.”

 

Heather  41:48

One thing that we didn’t talk about, that we probably should is when our kids get sick, it’s mandatory downtime, right? You have a child that’s sick, so all of a sudden there’s no more evening activities. You’re more home. You’re with them. You’re maybe holding them. They’re getting all of this sweet cuddles. And of course, they love that. We all love that. And then when they get better, they’re not as independent and aren’t as able to go to bed well, because, of course, they want you there, right? And as a parent, then we’ve maybe missed work, we’ve stayed home, we’ve been up in the night with them because they’re not well. We’re maybe depleted and tired, and then we get them through it, and now maybe we’re getting sick, right? The beautiful gift that keeps on going. In a family of five, that illness can take a while to pass on.

 

Kristina  42:45

Cycle through. Cycle through the family. 

 

Heather  42:49

And so it becomes this challenge of, “Oh, they’re better now, why can’t they just go back well?” Because they settled in to all that closeness. And if we can remember that, we just have to draw it back. It’s going to take a little bit, and you can lessen it gradually. And you can also say to them, “And now mommy’s sick or daddy’s sick, and I need to go take care of myself, and I’m going to put you to bed,” and you can set boundaries around that stuff, but knowing on the front end, “Yep, it’s just the way it goes for all of us is those kids want us, and they want to be there with us, and after they’ve been ill, it’s really common and really normal, and you’ll get back there, and it’s okay if it takes a little bit of time.” Yep, it’s good thing to be mindful of, because it can be real frustrating, especially if you’re getting ill yourself and you just want to go to bed.

 

Kristina  43:48

Grace already, when she was two years old, would say, “messin.” Messin. I was like, :You want medicine? I mean, you’re perfectly fine.” Messin. Then I thought, ‘Well, it probably isn’t wise to listen to your two year old about when they want drugs.” So I would ignore it. But I learned that she knew when she was getting sick. Dollars to donuts the next day it would be, “Oh for crying out loud, she’s got a fever.” Yep, she knew she was getting sick before I knew she was getting sick. So I did learn to listen to my two year old, and when she said, “messin.”

 

Heather  44:26

It’s so funny. I remember thinking as a parent, “Oh, I just wish they could tell me.” And then when they do, we’re like, “No. How could they possibly know?”

 

Kristina  44:36

How could they possibly know-

 

Heather  44:38

Our wish came true. 

 

Kristina  44:41

And then we still, and that’s a difference in people. It’s a difference in children as well. Some of us are very aware of what’s happening inside our body. You’re one of those people. I’m the person that I just -oh, girl, no idea – 

 

Heather  44:54

That’s a whole different episode. And that one’s about grown ups.

 

Kristina  45:00

Yeah, so when we talk about getting back to the basics, these are the things we’re talking about. We’re talking about attachment and connection. We’re talking about how we fill our days and our schedule.

 

Heather  45:10

We’re talking about what we put in our bodies. We’re talking about how much sleep is the child getting.

 

Kristina  45:17

We think about how much time we’re spending out in nature.

 

Heather  45:21

And how much time we’re spending in front of a screen, as that impacts behavior hugely.

 

Kristina  45:31

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina-

 

Heather  45:37

and I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  45:42

Until next time –

 

Kristina and Heather 45:44

See you on the trails.

 

Kristina  45:48

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  45:59

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan. 

 

Kristina  46:07

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  46:20

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature to learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 4: Temperament Theory As A Parenting Tool, Part 2

Clinical social workers Kristina and Heather continue their conversation discussing David Keirsey’s temperament theory as a parenting tool, focusing on two of the four temperaments: Idealists and Rationals.

Idealists are imaginative, empathetic, and intuitive, and often misunderstood due to their abstract thinking. They emphasize personal growth, have strong intuition, and are deeply connected to others’ feelings. Idealists adults find setting boundaries to be a challenge, whereas differentiating between reality and fantasy is a challenge for idealist children.  

Rationals, making up 10% of the population, are logical, strategic, and independent. They value knowledge and intellectual debate. Parenting these children requires understanding their unique needs and fostering their intellectual curiosity. A Rational child will benefit from being given more information and a chance to understand the reasons behind rules, boundaries, and expectations.

“Understanding temperaments just helps us have more empathy. It helps increase our understanding, which then increases our joy and our ability to be able to connect to, to motivate, to respond to, to pause and remind ourselves, “Oh, I tend to react this way, but they tend to see things this way.” It’s a deeper understanding. And what we know is: knowledge is power, and if we can use that knowledge in our homes, with our children, with our spouses, man, does it make the journey so much more enjoyable.”

 

Understanding Idealists in Parenting

  • Kristina describes Idealists as imaginative, romantic, authentic, and extremely intuitive, emphasizing their sensitivity and relational nature.
  • Heather shares personal anecdotes about her and Kristina’s Idealist children, highlighting their imaginative play and sensitivity.
  • Kristina discusses the intense emotions and deep connections Idealists have, including the need for a soulful connection in relationships.

 

Challenges of Co-Parenting with Idealists

  • Kristina and Heather talk about the differences in their spouses’ perspectives on intimacy and connection, illustrating the communication gap between Idealists and other temperaments.
  • Heather shares her experience of having to learn to communicate effectively with her husband, who is not an Idealist.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of creative outlets for Idealists to maintain their emotional well-being.
  • Heather recounts her personal journey into photography as a creative outlet during her time at home with her children.

 

Empathy and Boundaries in Idealist Children

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the empathetic nature of Idealist children and the challenges they face in setting boundaries.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter Grace’s response to being excluded by classmates, highlighting her empathetic but naive actions.
  • Heather emphasizes the importance of teaching Idealist children to set boundaries and use their empathy constructively.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the unique challenges Idealist children face in understanding the difference between reality and fantasy.

 

The Role of Intuition in Idealists

  • Kristina and Heather talk about the strong intuition and empathy of Idealists, which can sometimes lead to misunderstandings.
  • Kristina shares a personal experience of trusting her intuition about a person, which was later validated.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges Idealists face in being understood by others due to their abstract thinking and strong emotions.
  • Kristina highlights the importance of Idealists feeling unconditionally loved and accepted by their parents.

 

Idealists in Relationships and Professions

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the unique needs and desires of Idealists in relationships, emphasizing the search for a soulmate connection.
  • Kristina shares her personal experience of wanting a deeper connection with her husband, who is not an Idealist.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of understanding and valuing the unique qualities of Idealists in relationships.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the professional fields Idealists often choose, such as counseling and helping professions, due to their passion for personal growth and supporting others.

 

Supporting Idealist Children

  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the need for parents to understand and protect Idealist children from the challenges they face.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter Grace’s emotional response when they sold their car, illustrating the deep connections Idealist children have.
  • Heather discusses the importance of recognizing and supporting Idealist children’s unique needs and perspectives.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the challenges Idealist children face in understanding the difference between reality and fantasy, and the importance of setting boundaries.

 

The Role of Intuition and Empathy in Idealists

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the strong intuition and empathy of Idealists, which can sometimes lead to misunderstandings.
  • Kristina shares a personal experience of trusting her intuition about a person, which was later validated.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges Idealists face in being understood by others due to their abstract thinking and strong emotions.
  • Kristina highlights the importance of Idealists feeling unconditionally loved and accepted by their parents.

 

Heather and Kristina share some ways parents can help Idealist children navigate the challenges of setting boundaries and understanding reality vs. fantasy: 

  • Validate their strong emotions and empathy, but also teach them how to set healthy boundaries. Help them understand it’s okay to say no or take a break from intense feelings.
  • Gently guide them when they are having trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy. Acknowledge their imaginative play, but also reinforce what is real. Use concrete examples to illustrate the difference.
  • Provide unconditional love and acceptance. Idealist children need to feel fully accepted for who they are, even when their behaviors or perceptions differ from others.
  • Role-play social situations and practice assertive communication. This can help Idealist children learn to advocate for themselves while still being considerate of others.
  • Encourage them to share their feelings, but also model how to express emotions in a balanced way. Idealists can learn to articulate their needs without overwhelming others.

 

Key takeaway: balance empathy, validation, and boundary-setting to help Idealist children thrive. With patience and understanding, parents can nurture their child’s strengths while also building essential life skills.

 

Understanding Rationals In Parenting

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the final of the four temperaments: Rationals, who make up about 10% of the population. 
  • Unlike the more common Guardians,  Rationals are known for their logical, strategic thinking and independence. 
  • Rationals plan meticulously and expect efficiency, often feeling frustrated by disorganization or emotional responses from others.

 

Rationals In Relationships

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how Rationals prioritize intellectual connections and debates in relationships, seeking partners who can match their level of intelligence. 
  • They discuss how sometimes Rationals appear to lack empathy, viewing situations logically rather than emotionally. This can create tension, especially when paired with more emotionally-driven personality types like “Idealists.”
  •  In educational settings, Rationals may challenge authority and prefer logical reasoning over positional power, which can lead to misunderstandings. 
  • Rationals thrive in environments that stimulate their intellect and creativity, often excelling in fields like engineering or technology.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss how understanding the traits of Rationals helps parents and educators better support Rational children, fostering their strengths while accommodating their unique perspectives. 

 

Listen to Heather and Kristina discuss the other two of the four main temperaments: Guardians and Artisans in Episode 3!

 

Further Reading :

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

 

 Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

 The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 4: Temperament Theory As A Parenting Tool, Part 2

 

Kristina  00:00

In this episode, we’ll build upon our discussion of David Keirsey’s temperament theory.

 

Heather  00:04

We’ll share our experiences using temperament theory as a parenting tool, and explore two more of the temperaments, Idealists and Rationals. 

 

Kristina  00:12

Understanding these temperaments can help us improve our parenting by allowing us to tailor our approach to each child’s individual needs.

 

Heather  00:21

We’ll explore the dynamics unique to each temperament and how understanding each type helps us show up with more empathy and joy as we support and grow our children. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood!


Kristina  00:38

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  00:52

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  01:14

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather  01:20

Are you ready?

 

Kristina  01:20

Let’s hit the trails. So let’s talk about Idealists. Some words that come to mind when you think of an Idealist are: imaginative, romantic, authentic, extremely intuitive. They are kind-hearted and empathetic. They’re sensitive, very relational, and can be great diplomats. They’re very diplomatic. Idealists are the fanciful, and they love to use their imagination. They like to dream about what is possible, and they live in that world. They’re not as aware of what they necessarily can see, touch, taste, hear, in reality, but they love fantasy and thinking about what could possibly be. So Heather and I both have Idealist children. They’re the ones that would have all those little figurines and create these whole communities, and they all had backstories and very real feelings, because they love living in that imaginary world.

 

Heather  02:37

And they just loved the little figurine. I don’t know what that was,  but they stay there a long time, and they create entire communities, which is really what it always was. There were entire groups of people, and then those people had villages and animals and pets and a vet. And, I mean, it was amazing to really see, but they never want to pick it up, because it goes on. Their play goes on, and they stay in that play for a really long time. At some point you got to get the community out of the kitchen.

 

Kristina  03:13

So Idealists, again, living in that fantasy world, they are very tender hearted. They have very strong feelings, and they pride themselves on being loving and authentic. They can be really intense mates. If you co parent with somebody that’s an Idealist, that can be pretty intense. I’ll say to my husband that I just want to be closer. I just want to, like, I want us to be closer. And he says, “I have no idea what you are talking about. We are as close as two people can be.” But I want, like, I want a soulful connection. 

 

Heather  03:54

Yeah, you’re talking about intimacy. And Vince is like, moving shoulder to shoulder with you, like,” I don’t know how to…should I sit on your lap?”

 

Kristina  04:04

We could not be physically closer. He doesn’t. That’s not the closeness I’m talking about when I say those kinds of things. 

 

Heather  04:11

It’s almost like a different language. And my husband, Travis, and I run into this, and I had to learn that I had to say to him, because I am a dreamer in some, well, in probably lots of ways, but I like – not a dreamer in the not reality type of way. But I like to have vision. And then I like to plan to make those things come to fruition. He likes a plan. He doesn’t like the dream it up part so much, because Idealists have this need. I think you and I, probably why we’re doing this podcast is, as professionals, we have to have this creative outlet. Otherwise our light goes dim. Wouldn’t you agree? I think that’s just, there’s this we have to kind of have this creative flame burning all the time. And when I was home with my kids for a stint, it’s why I, all of a sudden, went into photography and these different things. We live in a rural farm country area, and I’ve told the story about how we will drive past a field, and I was raised in a farm community, and my grandpa had property, and so I grew up very much running through a pasture, and so I will look out the window as my husband and I are driving by and be like, “Oh, I just love how that field is plowed up and it’s going to be planted and in no time, it’s going to be green.” And he just kind of looks at me like, “It’s all very lovely Anne of Green Gables,” because he he’s like, “It’s dirt, right? Like, I see dirt.” Yeah, but I look at how it’s plowed in the linear nature, and I appreciate it, like when they take their curves and they’re all in a line, and then that all grows so beautifully. And he’s like, like, that is a different language. Completely different language. 

 

Kristina  05:59

And what it is is that your husband, as a Guardian, speaks literally. And Idealists-

 

Heather  06:08

Speak figuratively. Yes, and I’m laughing because I speak in metaphors all the time.

 

Kristina  06:12

All the time. We would much rather tell a story than using this content.

 

Heather  06:19

And I think it’s because I realize people understand me when I do that, because otherwise they think I’m Anne of Green Gables. I don’t know, right? I think that’s how I’ve learned like this is how people better understand what I’m trying to communicate.

 

Kristina  06:32

Yep. The natural tendency is to use abstract language, abstract concepts. That’s where the Idealist likes to live. Idealists are passionately concerned with personal growth. They always want to better themselves, right?

 

Heather  06:50

Oh, yeah. And I feel like sometimes in our work environment, that’s what trips me up, is I think everybody’s like that, and they’re not.

 

Kristina  06:59

Idealists have very strong intuition, and they trust their intuition, because over time, they’ve known it to be pretty accurate. It’s like they have a sixth sense, and they can resonate on a little different level.

 

Heather  07:14

We notice things that other people simply don’t notice.

 

Kristina  07:18

That aren’t visible. So you get senses of people. Idealist children are very empathetic, as are the adults. Like adults will tell them things, because they’re really good listeners, and they’re very empathetic, and they feel the feelings of people around them. 

 

Heather  07:38

They feel the energy around them, and that can manifest physically within them. 

 

Kristina  07:44

Yeah. Lots of tummy aches for children. It could be that an Idealist child was at school and the teacher spoke in a stern way to another student, but it made the Idealist feel the feelings of discomfort that the student was feeling, of feeling the disappointment, or whatever the teacher was feeling. They pick all of that up. So they’re like this little feeling sponge. If there’s tension in the home, Idealists will feel it. They want harmony. They want people to get along. They will oftentimes put aside whatever it is that they want.

 

Heather  08:24

They will give too freely of themselves and their own desires.

 

Kristina  08:28

And because they believe so passionately in the potential of people and in growing people, they can be the individuals who end up in relationships where they’re not treated well because they believe in the best part of people.

 

Heather  08:44

So this goes back to that. I’m gonna say my husband’s notion at the beginning of how we just parent the children all the same. This is my Luke, and this is your Grace. These Idealist children, they needed to be taught some really specific skills to protect themselves. You talk about how Grace was really trying to grow the skill set when some girls were being unkind to her at school and just had all this empathy, but really no boundary with them.

 

Kristina  09:18

Oh, right. So my beautiful daughter was in first grade, and there was a little girl in her class who, unbeknownst to Grace, had shared with the other kids like, “Let’s not play with Grace today at recess,” Grace didn’t know anything about that. “Let’s run from her,” Right.  So they went out to recess, and sure enough, the kids are all running away from Grace, and she just thinks they’re playing a game of chase, and she’s not very fast. So she doesn’t realize what’s happening here. Here I’ve just talked about how intuitive kids are, but she was in first grade and didn’t really understand what was happening, didn’t know, couldn’t imagine that there was any malicious thought, and they’re first graders. Was it malicious? I don’t know. When I found out about it, I was like, “Bring me the child.” Because somebody had really hurt my kid. So-

 

Heather  10:05

The one time I’d be allowed to cut through the unauthorized as if I was picking you up and we were going to get her.

 

Kristina  10:12

I would allow it then. That’s right, that’s right. That’s your “mama bear.” And your “mama bear” does lots of things you wouldn’t normally do. So Grace didn’t get it. So the little girl came to her and said, “We don’t want to play with you. I told everybody not to play with you, and so we were trying to run away from you.” Because Grace hadn’t really understood that. So Grace came home from school, and she’s at the table and she’s working on, you know, a piece of paper. She’s got her crayons out and her markers out and things like that. And I said, “Hey, whatcha up to?” And she said, “I’m making a card for this little girl,” let’s just call her, “Penelope.” “I’m making a card for Penelope.” I said, “Oh, that’s so nice.” And she said, “Yeah, she told the other kids not to play with me, and they all ran away from me. And so I’m thinking, mom, she must have a really sad heart, because why would you do that? So I just want to make her feel better.” And I’m thinking, “Make her feel better? I will make her feel something. And it is not better.” So Grace brought the card in, gave it to Penelope. Penelope looks at it and says, “This is garbage,” and throws it away. So what does Grace do? She needs to make another card. So we had to have conversations about how sometimes that is exactly what we want to do, right? Provide that empathy. There are other times that it’s okay to say that was that was her fault, right? It was unkind. And it doesn’t mean that it’s a bad person. Penelope is not a bad person, but whatever she was working out was unkind toward Grace. 

 

Heather  11:47

A great moment to have Grace be aware that she can use her big voice and that child gets to feel how they need to feel about it, but the boundary that Grace is gonna set for herself is,”I don’t like it when you tell everybody to run away from me. Next time come talk to me if you don’t want to play with me.” 

 

Kristina  12:11

Yep. So, those little Idealists, so empathetic, very authentic, they would not dream of misrepresenting themselves. They crave authenticity in others. They look for signs and symbols all over the place. Idealists tend to be the most spiritual. That doesn’t mean that they are necessarily the most religious.

 

Heather  12:35

Yes, they connect spiritually at a different level.

 

Kristina  12:39

Yep, and they seek deep, deep meaning in relationships and in the world around them. Idealists are about 15% of the population, so there are not a lot of them, right? And they know that they’re different, and they kind of like that they’re unique, but they go through life feeling misunderstood a lot, because they are so abstract, because they are such big thinkers, and because they feel so strongly. They may be in a family or in a room where nobody else is feeling it as strongly as they are, or the things they pick up about a person, that they sense from a person, nobody else senses. I remember being in a situation where I met somebody and my insides felt yucky, which is what I feel when I meet somebody who maybe has some motives that I don’t value or respect or somebody that diminishes other people. I don’t like that kind of thing. And I hadn’t really even met this person to interact with them, but I could sense it. Nobody else could sense it, but I could sense it. So you feel misunderstood. It’s like, “Yeah, this person, this is not a good fit. This is going to lead to trouble.” And people that aren’t Idealists are like, “What are you talking about? They must remind you of like a mean professor along the way, or something.” And it’s like, “Nope, I’ve learned to trust my intuition.” And that indeed did come to fruition, that that is who the person was.

 

Heather  14:19

And if people don’t have that skill. They don’t understand it. And we get dismissed a lot in that way, of like, “Oh, they just think…” and then nine months later it’s like, “Oh, imagine that! Huh.” And it’s not that we have any sort of ability to predict what could happen. But it is an awareness of something’s off there. We just notice things that other people don’t or get a sense of something. And that’s not just us. That’s just an Idealist characteristic that’s really strong within them.

 

Kristina  14:53

Idealists love working with people. They go into fields like we did. We’re therapists. They go into counseling. They go into these helping professions because they really believe in the growth and supporting the growth of other individuals. They tend to be pretty gifted in languages, both written and, you know, verbal communication. They’re good communicators, and it’s different than the other temperaments are. This is, I think, an interesting thing about Idealists: if they’re using a tool or some other item, they are less concerned about how they feel about it, and they are very concerned about how their use of that tool or that item impacts others. They are very aware of the things that they do and say and the impact it has on the people around them, very aware of that, and like we had said earlier, will just ignore their own desires or their own wishes in lieu of meeting the wish or desire of somebody else. And they feel very strongly in every direction. Idealists say things like, “That was hilarious.” It’s not “funny.” It’s “hilarious,” right? I wasn’t just “angry” or “mad.” I was “furious.” They have- they use intense language because they feel things so intensely.

 

Heather  16:18

So in a relationship, they tend to want a soulmate. And they tend to be very nurturing parents and inspirational leaders where they are typically.

 

Kristina  16:29

In relationships with a partner or a spouse, Guardians are looking for a help mate, because they like to be helpful. Artisans are looking for a play mate, not the Hugh Hefner kind, but like somebody that can have fun and be free and go on all their adventures. And Idealists are looking for a soul mate. They want that soul connection. It’s when I say to Vince, “I want to know you better. I want you to know me better, and for us to be closer.” He’s like, “I do not know what you are talking about, woman. We are as close as we can be. And I’m thinking, “No, I want that soul connection.” So Idealists are a unique little temperament. I say unique because there just aren’t as many of them, and they are acutely aware of the feelings and the energy of people around them-

 

Heather  17:21

in the room, from very young ages. 

 

Kristina  17:26

So when you have an Idealist child, there are a number of things to be aware of. First of all, they are not being overly dramatic. They just feel it that intensely. Now you can have somebody that is overly dramatic, right? But especially Idealist children, they really feel it. I mean Grace, when we got a new car, the car that we had when she was born, the white car, she was so attached to that car that when we got a new car, she grieved that we didn’t have the white car anymore. It would never be the same. I mean, the music we’d listen to in the white car, even though it was exactly the same music that we listened to in the gray car, it just wasn’t going to be the same. So Idealist children form really close connections to things and to the people around them. Idealist children are, oh, this is a tricky thing. They’re the most likely to have an imaginary friend, because they have a very, very rich imagination and fantasy life. So they have imaginary friends and they become real to them. So Idealist children are the last to figure out the difference between reality and fantasy, so they can be accused of lying when they really aren’t. They don’t know that that’s not real because it’s so real to them. Guardians aren’t gonna lie because it’s not the right thing to do. Can

 

Heather  18:59

Can I give an example? So I’m thinking of Zack’s best friend for many years. Still is to this day, he was just at our house on Saturday, darling, darling boy. My best friend from high school, her son. They grew up together. They just have had a ball. And it has been so much fun watching those two come into the world, really two months apart, and grow all the way up through young adulthood. Now they’ll be in each other’s weddings. This is just what their life has been like. This young man is an Idealist, and he is just a sweetheart. My son is a Guardian. And I remember dropping Zack off to play with him. And they were probably ten or eleven, and Zack kind of like shrinking down in the passenger seat, and me saying, “Honey, what’s the matter? Are you excited to play?” He’s like, “Yeah, he’s wearing this cape again.” And he could see him behind the tree, and he had his cape on. And I said, “Oh.” And he’s like, “You know, he still likes to play like that, and I would rather like ride quads, or our bikes…” and he just was in that imaginary land longer. And he was a child in the second grade, at parent teacher conferences, had convinced his teacher he had a whole other family, like that they lived on the shores of Lake Michigan. That this was his other family. He had all of these siblings. The teacher was like, “So like, are you divorced? Are you two like, who lives in the home on Lake Michigan?” And his parents were like, “What?” And the teacher was like, “You know, like with the other kids? And they were like “What?” And then it came out that he had created this whole other family and this whole other house with all of these siblings. I mean, he wasn’t lying, per se. There’s an argument. Should he have maybe known better at seven or eight years old, but it was what he created based on who he is, and he wasn’t doing it with the intention of, “Oh, I’m gonna string my teachers along and tell them these big lies.” That wasn’t it at all. He had, if anything, brought them into his world that he had created probably much because he felt safe and loved. And there’s the difference. It can feel very much like there’s just a lot of feelings, and that there’s a lot and all that doesn’t need to be such a big deal. You’re making that such a big deal. Or why did you tell your teacher that? And really, it’s just these beautiful lands, fairytale lands, that they can create and will bring you into. And I would argue that he loved his teachers and brought them into his world. 

 

Kristina  21:57

Yep, and it wasn’t because he had an unhappy home. He wasn’t creating something-

 

Heather  22:02

Or that didn’t lie and trick them. There was no ill intent whatsoever.

 

Kristina  22:08

The thing an Idealist will lie about, quote, unquote “lie.” Well, this is, really, is to save somebody from harm or from punishment. They just want everybody to have this harmony. So they may say things. They’re very diplomatic. They may say things to change the mood or the trajectory of an exchange to make everybody happy. They may do that-

 

Heather  22:34

Soften the blow. Bring the humor. Lighten things up. 

 

Kristina  22:38

Yep. So my daughter Grace, the Idealist. Idealists tend to be very self-aware, because they have that intuition, and they’re connected so well to their feelings. If we’re reading a book together, or if we’re going to watch a movie, she will say, sometimes, “I just don’t want to feel those feelings right now.” I mean, we don’t go to a movie that she’s not sobbing at, sobbing at, because she connects so much with others, real or not. So she can say, “I just don’t want to feel those feelings right now. II can’t go that deep. I can’t do it.” And Idealists, many times, carry the feelings of other people, and you need to work as you get older and figuring out how to separate yourself from the feelings of everybody around you. For Idealist children, more than any other temperament, they have to know that they are loved unconditionally and that their parents accept them for who they are, for how they feel, for how they view the world. That’s really, really important to the Idealist child. If you are upset with an Idealist child, you can talk to them about it. But if you raise your voice, if you get punitive in, you know, how you’re going to punish or discipline a child, that deeply affects the heart of an Idealist, because there’s this disconnect right now. It’s like “me against you,” and they don’t like that at all. Idealists like cooperative games. They don’t prefer to be real competitive about things. It’s not that they don’t like it when they win, but they aren’t the kids that are, you know, really like, “Oh, I want to, like, dang, I, you know, sorry I lost.” They’re not those kids. They’re much more about the experience and have camaraderie. Camaraderie in the moment. So Idealists, especially young ones, need some protecting. They need protecting from the others in the world of different temperaments who just don’t understand how tender those little hearts are.<