Tune in to Gear Up! Adventures in Parenthood with Clinical Social Workers Heather Bouwman & Kristina Boersma as they explore the highs and lows of parenthood with lots of insight and a little humor, too.

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Episodes

In this insightful episode, clinical social workers Kristina and Heather continue their deep-dive into the crucial topic of managing anxiety in children. With 30% of children experiencing an anxiety disorder by age 18—yet only 20% receiving treatment—Kristina and Heather discuss effective strategies to help kids cope. From cognitive behavioral therapy and medications to simple but powerful tools like sensory play and outdoor activities, they offer practical advice for parents.

The episode encourages modeling healthy coping techniques, validating children’s fears, and seeking professional support when necessary. Learn how setting realistic expectations, desensitizing fears, and using techniques like visualization and role-playing can empower your child to manage anxiety.

Plus, discover how outdoor activities and the healing power of nature can boost your child’s emotional well-being. Don’t miss these expert insights to help us all navigate the challenges of anxiety.

In this first episode of a two-part series, clinical social workers Kristina and Heather dive deep into the rising concern of anxiety in children. They explore how the symptoms of anxiety often mirror other conditions like ADHD or depression, making it crucial for parents and caregivers to recognize the signs early.

From physical symptoms to avoidance behaviors and explosive outbursts, the impact of untreated anxiety can be significant. Kristina and Heather stress the importance of early intervention to prevent anxiety from evolving into depression and offer effective strategies such as cognitive behavioral therapy, medication, and teaching children essential coping skills.

They also discuss the critical role parents play in modeling healthy coping mechanisms, like deep breathing and outdoor activities, and knowing when to seek professional help.

Tune in for invaluable insights on how to help our children navigate anxiety and build resilience for a healthier emotional future.

In this heartwarming episode, clinical social workers Heather and Kristina respond to a thoughtful question from a listener about the pressures of parental perfectionism. Together, they explore the impact of negative self-talk on parenting and offer practical strategies for managing disappointment while embracing our imperfections. They share the powerful reminder that making mistakes is part of being human and how these moments of misstep can help children learn empathy and resilience. They also discuss the role that societal expectations play in perfectionism and offer thoughtful ideas for how to redefine what success in parenting truly means.

With a focus on the importance of community support and the wisdom of mentor parents, Heather and Kristina remind us that connection and presence with our children are far more important than striving for perfection.

Full of personal stories, professional insights, and a lot of encouragement, this episode offers a refreshing perspective on the messy yet beautiful journey of parenting.

Clinical social workers Kristina and Heather explore the power of asking the right questions to connect with your kids on a deeper level. They dive into the importance of open-ended questions—those that spark conversation, promote communication, and help avoid anxiety. From asking about their favorite outdoor activities to exploring their imaginative worlds, these conversations foster emotional bonds and build language skills. 

For older kids, Kristina and Heather offer strategies for discussing personal values, emotions, and aspirations—topics that encourage reflection and growth. They also talk about the best times—like car rides, bedtime, and dinner—for these powerful conversations. 

Tune in to learn how to strengthen our connections with our children and support their healthy emotional development! 

In this heartfelt episode, clinical social workers Heather and Kristina dive into the final seven out of 14 essential things children need to thrive. They explore the power of simplicity—how reducing material clutter can bring peace, and the importance of affirming a child’s inherent goodness with daily expressions of love. They discuss the value of daily rhythms, providing security and predictability; creating a calm environment to nurture mental well-being; and cultivating compassion to help children safely express their emotions. Heather and Kristina also talk about the profound impact of being a “shoulder to cry on” through active listening and nonjudgmental support, and they emphasize the transformative power of expressing gratitude for who children are, not just what they do. Tune in for an insightful discussion on these free, simple practices that can strengthen our bonds with our kiddos and make a world of difference in their lives.

In this heartwarming episode, Heather and Kristina share some favorite resources they’ve collected over the years as clinical social workers and passionate advocates for children’s wellbeing. In this first of two-part series, they introduce their list of the “14 Things All Kids Need More Of…” And guess what? They’re all FREE! They explore the profound benefits of unstructured play, the magic of sunlight, and the grounding power of nature. With warmth and insight, they discuss how hugs foster attachment and emotional regulation, why children need the freedom to explore their world, and the critical role of playtime with parents in building deep, lasting connections. They also highlight the joy and health benefits of laughter. This episode is a beautiful reminder of the simple yet powerful ways we can support children’s development and happiness, one moment at a time.

In this powerful episode, clinical social workers Kristina and Heather dive deep into the crucial topic of teaching children about body safety. They shed light on the alarming statistics from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, revealing that one in five girls and one in ten boys will experience sexual abuse before adulthood, with fewer than 35% of cases ever reported. Their conversation focuses on empowering kids to recognize “tricky people” and foster open lines of communication. Kristina and Heather share effective strategies, like teaching children their personal information, understanding privacy, and the critical importance of not keeping secrets. They also emphasize how parents can spot grooming behaviors and respond with care and support if a child discloses abuse. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion that provides essential tools to empower parents and protect our children.

In this episode, clinical social workers Kristina and Heather dive into the vital topic of teaching children about consent. They explore how fostering an understanding of boundaries, respect, and autonomy can empower kids to navigate their relationships with confidence. Through personal stories and real-life parenting examples, they highlight the importance of role-playing and modeling respectful behavior to help children learn how to ask for and give consent.

Kristina and Heather also discuss the role of media in shaping kids’ perceptions of consent and stress the significance of teaching that “no” means “no” and “stop” means “stop.” Tune in for insightful tips on how to nurture a generation that values respect and autonomy in all relationships.

In this episode Heather and Kristina dive deep into the delicate dance between parents and grandparents. This conversation explores the emotional and practical challenges of navigating this complex family dynamic, from the deep joy of grandparent bonding to the tough moments of miscommunication and boundary-pushing. 

Did you know that half of parents are raising their kids the same way they were raised—with love and clear rules—while the other half focus more on love and relationships? From gift-giving dilemmas to disagreements over screen time, discipline, and holiday plans, Heather and Kristina tackle these and other common points of tension that pop up between generations. 

They share insights on how to foster open communication, set healthy boundaries, and ensure mutual respect—while also acknowledging the unique generational differences at play. As always, they remind us it comes back to the question: what behaviors do we want to model for our kiddos? 

Tune in for practical advice, relatable stories, and a bit of humor as they help us navigate the often tricky, always rewarding world of parenting… grandparenting!

In this episode, Kristina and Heather dive into the art of managing our daily schedules while keeping life balanced and fulfilling. Drawing from their own experiences of juggling grad school, parenting, and all the chaos in between, they chat about the importance of creating space (aka margins) to avoid burnout. They share how hectic schedules can take a toll on sleep, relationships, and overall well-being, and offer tips on how to bring more mindfulness and intention into our routines.

They also discuss the crucial benefits of getting outdoors, connecting with nature, and building meaningful family rituals—no grand gestures needed! By the end, Kristina and Heather remind us that a balanced life, with time for both rest and play, isn’t just essential for our own health, but also for modeling healthy habits for our kids and strengthening family bonds.

This conversation is all about practical advice and a refreshing take on finding harmony in a busy world!

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of allowing children to experience frustration and disappointment to build resilience and problem-solving skills. They introduce the concept of the “wall of futility,” where children must confront and process their emotions to develop coping and adaptability skills. Emphasizing empathy over rescue, they highlight the need for parents to resist the urge to distract or minimize their children’s feelings. They share personal stories and strategies, such as acknowledging feelings and not rushing to fix problems, to help children navigate through disappointment and adapt. The conversation takes a look at finding the balance between advocating for children and fostering their independence.

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of allowing children to experience frustration and disappointment to build resilience and problem-solving skills. They introduce the concept of the “wall of futility,” where children must confront and process their emotions to develop coping and adaptability skills. Emphasizing empathy over rescue, they highlight the need for parents to resist the urge to distract or minimize their children’s feelings. They share personal stories and strategies, such as acknowledging feelings and not rushing to fix problems, to help children navigate through disappointment and adapt. The conversation takes a look at finding the balance between advocating for children and fostering their independence.

Clinical social workers Kristina and Heather dive into the world of managing children’s emotional outbursts with a mix of expert advice, practical strategies, and a sprinkle of humor. They break down how understanding your child’s brain development can transform your approach, and share techniques like using the “look up” method to help shift focus from the emotional brain to the more rational frontal lobe. They discuss how non-verbal communication can be our secret weapon, why it’s best to avoid teaching in the heat of the moment, and how simple phrases like “first and then” and “make me an offer I can say yes to” can encourage cooperation and calm. Plus, Kristina and Heather explain the power of positive reinforcement, the importance of clear, consistent communication, and the magic of phrases like “asked and answered” to diffuse tension.

Join clinical social workers Heather and Kristina, as they explore the profound impact of life’s transitions on us and our children. In this engaging conversation, they delve into the importance of honoring both beginnings and endings, with our children. They discuss ways parents can guide their kids through the emotional landscape of change, helping them navigate feelings of grief, gratitude, and excitement.

Through heartfelt personal stories and practical strategies—like creating memory boxes and using calming language—Heather and Kristina offer insights into how parents can model emotional health and create space for children to express their authentic feelings. From the bittersweet moments of a child starting school to the challenges of parents moving on to new jobs, they highlight how these milestones, though often joyful, can also stir complex emotions.

In a world that often rushes through life’s transitions, this conversation serves as a reminder to slow down, be present, and give ourselves—and our children—the time and space needed to truly process and embrace change. Whether we’re navigating our own transitions or supporting a loved one, this discussion offers valuable tools for fostering emotional resilience and connection.

In the final episode of their 3-part series on Discipline, clinical social workers Heather and Kristina wrap things up with some practical, easy-to-apply strategies for parents. This time, they’re focusing on the power of using an assertive voice in parenting. They emphasize the need for clear and direct communication—no room for questioning or extra politeness like “please” and “thank you” that can confuse kids. 

To help manage resistance, they introduce a simple three-step process: empathy, expectation, and choice. It’s a strategy that allows parents to remain firm while still showing understanding. Heather and Kristina also recommend using visual aids and breaking tasks down into clear steps, helping children better grasp what’s expected of them.

But, as they point out, making the shift to an assertive voice isn’t always easy. It takes practice and consistency—especially for parents who are used to being passive or aggressive in their communication. They remind us that self-care and leaning on our village for support are key during this transition. 

This episode is packed with valuable insights, encouraging parents to stay calm, stay consistent, and, most importantly, take care of themselves while navigating the challenges of this parenting adventure.

 

In this episode, Kristina and Heather discuss effective discipline strategies that focus on children’s skill development rather than controlling behavior. They share the inspiring story of a father named Tom, who transformed his parenting approach over two years by focusing on personal growth, self-care, and understanding his emotional triggers. Tom’s journey involved improving his sleep, nutrition, and stress management, which led to increased patience and a stronger bond with his daughters.

 

The hosts emphasize the importance of self-regulation, modeling calm behavior, and the long-term commitment to parenting. They also preview upcoming episodes on discipline strategies.

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina discuss the difference between discipline and punishment, emphasizing a growth-focused approach. They highlight the negative impact of punitive models on children’s mental health and attachment.

Sharing personal stories, they illustrate how modeling positive behavior and providing do-overs can foster resilience and healthy development. They stress the importance of co-parenting and understanding the root causes of children’s behaviors.

The conversation underscores the need for a supportive, non-punitive environment where children feel safe to learn and make mistakes, promoting long-term growth and connection.

Clinical social workers Kristina and Heather discuss the critical role gratitude plays in parenting, specifically in shifting mindsets from victimhood to resilience. They highlight practical strategies like expressing gratitude at dinner, keeping gratitude jars, and using visual reminders.

Gratitude is linked to improved mental health, reduced depression and anxiety, and enhanced happiness. They stress the difference between genuine gratitude and toxic positivity, advocating for authentic expression and critical thinking. They share personal stories that illustrate how gratitude can transform negative situations into opportunities for growth. They also discuss modeling gratitude and involving children in giving activities, such as leaving pennies for others to use for a fun activity for kids at a local grocery store chain.

In this episode Kristina and Heather, clinical social workers, discuss the importance of setting realistic expectations for children, balancing effort with perfectionism, and establishing clear, consistent boundaries. The conversation highlights the benefits of natural consequences over imposed ones and the necessity of following through with consequences.

They emphasize the significance of body language, empathy, and offering choices, sharing personal anecdotes about handling a child’s perfectionism and the impact of forgetting items at school.

They discuss how important it is to set developmentally appropriate expectations and how important, yet challenging, it can be for parents to be consistent role models.

Clinical social workers and moms, Heather and Kristina, discuss the importance of setting clear boundaries with children to promote their success and family well-being.

They emphasize that boundaries should be consistent and not overly rigid, as this helps children understand acceptable behaviors and values. They also highlight the need for parents to communicate expectations clearly and consistently, as our kids are not mind-readers.

The conversation also covers handling sibling conflicts, teaching children to respect boundaries, and the significance of emotional safety. They stress that boundaries should evolve as children grow, focusing on teaching values and nurturing their development.

Join Kristina and Heather in this lively episode as they don their detective hats and continue their conversation about the intriguing world of shifting behaviors and how to better understand these changes in our kids.

They explore clever strategies for decoding children’s behaviors, especially when it comes to food and screen time. With a focus on connection, they share how family meals can become nurturing moments that balance parental guidance with kids’ ability to listen to their bodies. Get ready for some real talk as they recount their own parenting adventures understanding their own childrens’ food preferences. Plus, they shine a light on the effects of screen time, suggesting a fun 15-minute rule to prevent dopamine overload.

Heather and Kristina also remind us all of the crucial role nature and time outside play in boosting family health and harmony. Tune in for a blend of laughter, insights, and practical tips that will help you navigate the ups and downs of chasing those “whys” when it comes to behavior shifts and “being the detective” in your own home.

Join Heather and Kristina as they embark on a two part series to uncover the secrets behind those puzzling behavior shifts we all encounter.

Armed with magnifying glasses and a playful spirit, they illuminate the essential clues—diet, sleep, screen time, physical activity, and attachment—that unlock the treasure chest of a child’s emotions. It’s like a scavenger hunt for the heart! With their usual compassionate, “no nonsense” approach, Heather and Kristina tackle how major life changes, like moving homes or the arrival of a new sibling, can create ripples in a child’s mood, leading us to a fascinating interplay between environment and behavior.

With a dash of humor, they remind us not to jump to conclusions, advocating for a thoughtful, detective-like approach that seeks to decode the “whys” behind these shifts. 

In this episode, Heather and Kristina continue their exploration of David Keirsey’s temperament theory, which outlines four fundamental temperaments: Guardians, Artisans, Idealists, and Rationals. 

Drawing from their own parenting journeys, they delve into the Idealists and Rationals, sharing valuable insights that illuminate how these temperaments shape our children’s unique perspectives. 

Heather and Kristina discuss how understanding these traits can enhance our parenting by allowing us to tailor our approaches to fit each child’s individual needs. They explore the delightful dynamics that come with each temperament, revealing how this awareness helps us approach parenting with greater empathy and joy. 

Join them as they celebrate the diverse ways our children experience the world, empowering us all to support and nurture their growth in the most loving ways!

In this first episode in a two-part series, Kristina and Heather, discuss David Keirsey’s temperament theory as a tool in parenting, focusing on two of the four temperaments: Guardians and Artisans. Guardians (approximately 45% of the population) are factual, reliable, and duty-bound, valuing law and order. They are often responsible parents and leaders but can be misperceived as pessimistic or self-righteous. Artisans (approximately 30% of the population) are optimistic, daring, and adaptable, valuing freedom and impact. They are creative and spontaneous but may struggle with rules and planning. 

Understanding temperament allows parents to recognize and appreciate the innate differences in how their children perceive the world and interact with it. 

Rather than expecting all children to respond the same way, parents can adjust their communication, discipline, and expectations to align with each child’s natural tendencies.

Continuing their conversation on “The Parenting Journey,” Heather and Kristina explore embracing the unexpected and letting go of preconceived expectations both of ourselves as parents and of our children. They discuss the importance of discovering and celebrating each child’s unique identity, rather than trying to mold them into a predetermined vision. They share personal experiences of navigating parenting challenges, such as dealing with a child’s learning differences and embracing their child’s specific interests, even when they are outside the parent’s comfort zone. The conversation emphasizes the value of building a supportive community of friends and family who can provide encouragement, perspective, and a listening ear during difficult times. They highlight the role of imaginative play in a child’s development and the need for parents to be flexible and adapt to their child’s needs. This episode underscores the importance of finding personal coping strategies, like using music, and using humor to manage stress and maintain a positive mindset throughout the parenting journey.

In this episode, Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of proactive parenting and building strong attachments with children. They emphasize the significance of rituals, such as family meals and bedtime routines, in fostering connection and resilience. They share personal experiences, like prioritizing family meals despite busy schedules and the impact of one-on-one time. They highlight the importance of modeling positive behavior and consistent values, such as generosity and respect, to help children develop these characteristics. The conversation underscores the need for intentional parenting to create a secure and loving family environment.

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Episode 26: Anxiety In Children, Part 2 of 2 

 

The thing that trips us up so frequently as parents is that when we see our child in those moments of great anxiousness, worry, we can get our own hearts tied up in that and just want to clear the path and eliminate all of it, yes, and I will so frequently say to parents, we as parents have to believe in our kids, and they have to believe themselves, in our belief in them, because that’s tremendously empowering to them, and if we inadvertently communicate that we don’t think that they can do it, that they aren’t strong enough to do it, that they won’t be able to do it.

 

Parenting Strategies for Supporting Children with Anxiety

  • Heather talks about the importance of parents believing in their children and not inadvertently communicating doubt.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the balance between setting realistic expectations and not over-promising happiness to children.
  • Heather shares an example of a child’s anxiety about school drop-off and the importance of letting children face their fears to build confidence.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the need for parents to take it slow, ask for help when needed, and not panic when their children are feeling anxious.

 

We need to let our children know that we believe they can face those fears, and when they do the thing we can promise them is that the level of that anxiety will drop when they face the thing that is causing the anxiety. This gives them confidence, right? Your expectations are realistic, and you’re not going to ask them to do something that they aren’t able to handle.

 

We’ve gotta be in the middle –  with acknowledging the feelings, desensitizing, practicing, not pushing –  in the middle between dismissive and permissive. It’s a tricky balance.

Practical Tips for Managing Anxiety

  • Kristina shares a story about a child’s fear of Ronald McDonald and the importance of desensitizing the child rather than dismissing their fear.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of acknowledging children’s fears and not making them feel irrational.
  • Kristina talks about the role of sensory play in helping children manage anxiety, using examples like playing with dried lima beans and slime.
  • Heather discusses the importance of visualization and role-playing in helping children cope with anxiety and build resilience.

 

We have to know that as adults, we talk about things to reduce our anxiety, right? We like to have conversation, we reach out to a friend, we maybe talk to a spouse, all of those things help us bring our anxiety down. When we talk too much or in advance of an event, for a child with that anticipatory anxiety, it revs that engine, and all of a sudden that worry monster gets real big.

I think it’s important, right, that we can say to our kids, I know you’re scared, and it’s okay. I’m here. I’m going to help you through it. You can do this.

And keeping that anticipatory period short, remembering that we don’t want to over-talk things…Don’t talk. Just drop it. If they bring it up, talk about it, then meet them where they’re at. But if we keep bringing it up, they never have the chance to let their central nervous system just calm from it, because it’s just kind of like a browser that grinds in their mind, right? So we just don’t want to do that. 

The Role of Nature and Outdoor Activities

  • Heather highlights the benefits of outdoor activities and nature for reducing stress and improving emotional development in children.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the positive impact of outdoor play on children’s physical and mental health, including increased endorphin release and reduced cortisol levels.
  • Heather shares research showing that children’s stress levels decrease within minutes of being in green spaces.
  • Kristina and Heather encourage parents to get their children outside for physical activity and sensory experiences to help manage anxiety.

 

Outdoor exercise is way better for children than indoor. They just get more physical…and they have the added benefit of all that being outside and in nature naturally brings serotonin: happy chemical. 

So you get endorphins, because exercise causes the release of endorphins. Outdoor play leads to more vigorous play. And the current research shows that moderate to vigorous physical activity in childcare settings increased from 1% indoors to as much as 11% outdoors, and when outdoor play was child led, the amount of vigorous activity further increased to 17% -look at what that’s doing to the brain and the chemicals in the brain.

Look at what that’s doing to the brain and the chemicals in the brain. These are natural healers. 

Cortisol, reduced. Stress, reduced. Endorphins, raised. 

Serotonin raised. Vitamin D, taken in. Central nervous system regulated. So much good. That’s a prescription. Get outside and get active. 

Importance of Self-Care for Parents

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of parents managing their own anxiety to model healthy coping strategies for their children.
  • Heather shares her personal coping mechanisms, such as exercise and deep breathing, and how she models these behaviors for her children.
  • Kristina emphasizes the power of self-talk and positive affirmations in managing anxiety and building resilience.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the many benefits of nature and outdoor activities for parents, including reduced stress and improved mental health.

 

I think one thing that I often conveyed to my kids was the goal is not to be fearless, right? We don’t want to be fearless. You just need to be brave enough in this moment to take the next step. And I’m right here. Yep, I’m with you, but let’s take the next step. Yeah, and if your child needs outside help, taking the next step, that is okay.

Seeking Professional Help

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of seeking professional help for children struggling with anxiety.
  • Kristina shares her gratitude for Grace’s therapist and the role therapists play in helping children build coping skills.
  • Heather emphasizes the importance of normalizing therapy and seeking professional help for parents to better support their children.
  • Kristina and Heather encourage parents to learn as much as they can about parenting children with anxiety and to seek help when needed.
  • The episode concludes with a reminder of the importance of community support and the role of therapists and professionals in helping children and parents navigate anxiety.

 

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Coping With Anxiety:

 

Understanding “Fight, Flight, Freeze, Feign” Response

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/arts-and-health/202106/understanding-fight-flight-freeze-and-the-feign-response

 

In this and other episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to the SPOT series –  “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book series by Diane Alber.

 

Nature’s Role In Relieving Stress and Anxiety:

https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-lifestyle/stress-management/spend-time-in-nature-to-reduce-stress-and-anxiety?utm_source=chatgpt.com

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/news/2019/04/09/20-minute-nature-pill-relieves-stress

 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4204431/



Benefits of Time In Nature:

https://childmind.org/article/why-kids-need-to-spend-time-in-nature/

 

https://richardlouv.com/blog/every-child-needs-nature-not-just-the-ones-with-parent-who-appreciate-natur

 

Benefits of Unstructured Play:

https://www.apa.org/topics/children/kids-unstructured-play-benefits

 

Benefits of Hugs:

https://cincinnatifamilymagazine.com/the-healing-science-of-hugging-your-kids/

 

Benefits of Laughter:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/stress-management/in-depth/stress-relief/art-20044456

 

Body Safety:

Pattie Fitzgerald  – Safely Ever After

 

How Today’s Parents Say Their Approach to Parenting Does – or Doesn’t – Match Their Own Upbringing

 

Mindfulness of Schedules/Benefits of Down Time

 

Impact of Overscheduling on Skill Development

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

 

In prior episodes, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

 

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 26: Anxiety In Children, Part 2 of 2

 

Kristina  00:00

In today’s episode, we’re continuing our conversation about anxiety in children. If you haven’t had the chance to listen to the first part of the series, we’ve covered things like how anxiety doesn’t always look like we expect it to. 

 

Heather  00:14

That’s right. Anxiety in children shows up internally through things like trouble sleeping, stomach aches and avoiding certain situations. These signs can be hard to notice, especially since children are still learning how to express their feelings.

 

Kristina  00:29

We shared some statistics showing that by age 18, about 30% of children will experience an anxiety disorder. But sadly, 80% of them won’t get the treatment they need. So it’s all the more important for parents and caregivers to recognize the signs and have strategies to support our kiddos.

 

Heather  00:48

The good news is there are ways to manage anxiety effectively, and you can review what we talked about in our previous episode- things like cognitive behavioral therapy, medications when needed, and also some simple yet powerful strategies like sensory play, outdoor activities and managing anxiety by connecting with nature. These tools can make a huge difference in helping kids feel calm and build resilience.

 

Kristina  01:14

Today, we’ll continue our discussion about how we as parents play such a huge role in the process of supporting children when they feel anxious. By modeling healthy coping strategies ourselves, we can show our children how to handle anxiety in a balanced, calm way. 

 

Heather  01:32

And sometimes seeking professional support can be just as important too. And we want to emphasize that there’s no shame in getting help. We’re so glad you’re joining us today. Let’s keep the conversation going so we can all be better prepared to support children dealing with anxiety. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma

 

Heather

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re Support Service Directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina

 

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather

Are you ready? 

 

Kristina and Heather

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan, where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

 

Heather  

Please visit www. ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. The thing that trips us up so frequently as parents is that when we see our child in those moments of great anxiousness, worry, we can get our own hearts tied up in that and just want to clear the path and eliminate all of it. And I will so frequently say to parents, we as parents have to believe in our kids, and they have to believe themselves, in our belief in them, because that’s tremendously empowering to them. And if we inadvertently communicate that we don’t think that they can do it, that they aren’t strong enough to do it, that they won’t be able to do it. Once we walk away, I’m thinking about school drop off right where the kids will pull it, and just I don’t want to go to school, and we know they can do it, because once that parent’s out, the child is fine. And parents can get tied up in that and think, Oh, I’m just so I just don’t want them to be sad. I just want them to be happy. And I have had to say to so many parents, that’s not real life. Yes, there will always be hard. Yep, there will always be sad in life. One thing is certain, it won’t always be happy. Yep, it can’t be Yeah.

 

Kristina  04:50

What you’re saying Heather is oh so good. It’s setting realistic expectations. You cannot promise them that they’re going to. Fun at the skating party. You cannot tell them and promise them that they will not fail the test. We can’t promise things are always going to be sunshine roses.

 

Heather  05:10

You cannot tell them that they will always be accepted into their friend group, and they will never be the one on the outs. Those things come and unfortunately, that’s often normal development.

 

Kristina  05:24

So the important part, which you were saying earlier is we need to let our children know that we believe they can face those fears, and when they do the thing we can promise them is that the level of that anxiety will drop when they face the thing that is causing the anxiety. This gives them confidence, right? Your expectations are realistic, and you’re not going to ask them to do something that they aren’t able to handle.

 

Heather  05:56

Absolutely. And we’re going to believe in them wholeheartedly and communicate that to them so that they can stand taller, they can keep their chin up, they can have clear eyes and full hearts because they know we believe in them. Do you think Kristina that there are kind of two parenting polls where maybe it’s the tough love of just dismissive. You’re fine. You’re going to be fine. You don’t need to be having all that business. You’re fine. You’re going to be fine. Yes. And then there’s the opposite end.

 

Kristina  06:34

I have a lovely story about this. Actually, do you remember Ronald McDonald like the McDonald’s spokesperson with the orange hair. 

 

Heather  06:41

The clown? 

 

Kristina  06:42

I think it’s a clown. It’s so I don’t know it’s kind of, is he a clown? It’s awful, kind of awful. Anyway, Ronald McDonald,it’s supposed to be happy. It’s supposed to be like coming to hamburger and fries.  But anyways, I need

 

Heather  06:57

I don’t really know it’s not happy. I need some ground beef. 

 

Kristina  06:59

Oh God. There was a child years ago who was really frightened of that Ronald McDonald. And there was a big Ronald McDonald statue with sitting on a bench with, like his arm around, like you could sit next to Ronald McDonald. And this child was super freaked out about it. And the parent was like, That’s ridiculous. You can sit by Ronald McDonald. You can go past Ronald McDonald. It’s not a big deal. And the child was freaked. So what I recommended that the parent did, instead of just telling the child you’re not actually worried about that that’s ridiculous, suck it up and walk on by was to spend a little time with the child, with the child getting closer to Ronald McDonald going up, and the parent like poking its leg, and then the child poking its leg and doing those kinds of things to ease the child toward-

 

Heather  08:01

Desensitizing.

 

Kristina  08:02

Yes, but doing it together instead of, like you had said, dismissing a child-

 

Heather  08:08

Well, it’s acknowledging there’s a fear here, 

 

Kristina  08:10

Yes. And it doesn’t have to make sense to me.

 

Heather  08:12

No, because they’re children. And they’ll have all sorts of things that seem quite irrational to us.

 

Kristina  08:18

Right. And sometimes that’s true as adults, right? That little, itty bitty spider, and yet, wow, I can have a big reaction, right? Especially if it’s in the car and I’m driving-

 

Heather  08:29

Depends. Is it hairy? 

 

Kristina  08:30

Oh my gosh. Don’t even go there, girl. So fears don’t have to make sense to anybody else, right? It’s what you’re feeling internally. It’s when that fight, flight, freeze or feign part of your brain gets activated. You think I am in mortal danger by this little, tiny, hairy spider in my car. Crazy, but it’s true. So that’s something that we can work on, joining with our child and moving them toward the thing that is making them anxious.

 

Heather  09:02

And being mindful that we’re not on the dismissive end, right? We’re also not on the permissive end,

 

Kristina  09:08

Oh, right, like he is really big and scary. I don’t like him either. Oh, let’s avoid this place. Yeah.

 

Heather  09:15

Right. We gotta be in the middle in it, with acknowledging the feelings, desensitizing, practicing, not pushing in the middle between dismissive and permissive. It’s a tricky balance. 

 

Kristina  09:31

I was gonna say the same thing. So we as parents need to give ourselves tons of permission to not panic, to take it slow and to ask for help, right? 

 

Heather  09:43

Absolutely.

 

Kristina  09:44

Because, especially when you know my anxiety gets triggered, my anxiety is triggered, then Grace’s anxiety is triggered, or maybe mine gets triggered, because I know that hers is going to be triggered and holding her-

 

Heather  09:54

Off to the fences-

 

Kristina  09:55

So we need somebody else to help us. So Heather if you don’t mind, kind of talk about how we can respect theirfeelings, but not feed into them, but not dismiss them.

 

Heather  10:07

 I think that I’ve really tried to do that through saying you’ve got this and reminding them of who they are, reminding them of their successes, and being like, Oh, this is no big shakes. You’ve got this. It feels like a big deal right now, when you’re on the other side of it, you’re gonna look back at this and be so proud of yourself.

 

Kristina  10:30

We did this with Grace regarding getting an injection.

 

Heather  10:33

The doctor is a huge one, right? Yeah, especially for kids like ours who had ear troubles because they were at the doctor, their ears hurt, and then somebody’s going to look in it, and then what’s that going to mean they’re in pain. And the other thing with doctors is vaccinations and shots. Am I going to get a shot? Am I going to get a shot? Am I going to get a poke?

 

Kristina  10:54

I know, and it’s going to hurt so much. So we did this with Grace. At first, she was fine getting injections, and then she went through this period of time where she had a ton of anticipatory anxiety, right, anticipating what it was going to be. 

 

Heather  11:06

This was my Zack, too. 

 

Kristina  11:08

So worked up about something, and you knew it’s not going to be a big deal. It’s not even going to hurt, but her brain and her body weren’t telling her that at the time. 

 

Heather  11:16

Here’s the important thing with that. We have to know that as adults, we talk about things to reduce our anxiety, right? We like to have conversation, we reach out to a friend, we maybe talk to a spouse, all of those things help us bring our anxiety down when we talk too much or in advance of an event like you’re talking about too early. Oh, fora child with that anticipatory anxiety, it revs that engine, and all of a sudden that worry monster gets real big, cocky. 

 

Kristina  11:52

So with Grace the family, we’d all gone to have our flu shots together from the time she was really little, Grace would see me get injections. I just wanted her to kind of see what that looked like and watch how I managed it and things like that. But after this particular flu shot, which was more intense than previous, grace is upset about having to get this injection and really kind of having this panic as it was happening as soon as it was done, and she’s like, Oh, well, that didn’t hurt at all. I got my camera out and I started videotaping. I said, Grace, what just happened? She’s like, I got my flu shot? Like, yeah, so Did it hurt? No, were you worried about getting it? I was, was the flu shot really something to be worried about? It wasn’t it was fine. So the next time we had to go for an injection, Grace, got to see the little video of herself. Like, Hey, you did it. You handled it. Yes, it was okay.

 

Heather  12:52

Reminder of their success and our belief in them.

 

Kristina  12:56

I was like, well, that’s a really good parenting moment. That was brilliant Kristina to have that be recorded, because she’s not just hearing it from me, she’s hearing it from herself.

 

Heather  13:07

Right? Absolutely Powerful. I remember Zack too, before surgery. Had to have blood draw. He was real little. It was probably a tonsillectomy or something, and he did not like those needles, right? Oh, man, he did not like those needles. And he would tense, tense, tense, tense, sense. And she would say, It’s okay, honey, I’m gonna right now. It’sgonna go. And then he would be like, it’s in now, right? Did you do it? It’s over. And she’s like, sweetheart, it’s all done. And he would almost like, the tears that had welled right from all that anticipation were coming down his face, but then he would just laugh, because he was so happy. It was over relieved, right? Yes, and so reminding them of you got this, you can do this. It might be hard. I’m right here with you. All of those things are so powerful. I remember Ava. I just remembered this last night, and I called her in to the room where I was and said, Do you remember doing this? I don’t think she was quite three. You know how, when they’re gonna get their vaccinations, and they’ll have two nurses, and it’s like one in each leg, so we’re gonna do it simultaneously. We’re doing the countdown. Oh, man, it seems like a whole lot of business, right? All of a sudden, there’s more people in the room. We’re doing a countdown. We’re restraining the child. They’re coming at you two at a time, but it’s so you get one poke really, right? And we don’t have to redo this. So Ava knew she was getting shots, because every child always wants to know, do I have to get shots today? Yeah, sweetie, it’s okay. We’re gonna be okay. So I’m up by her head, and the nurses are by the legs and pokes go in. And she didn’t weep or wail or anything, but she had these huge crocodile tears streaming down her face and her bottom lip stuck way out, and she said, I’m gonna tell my daddy, you did that to me. I. Uh, like Daddy was gonna, you know, round up and come in there and have a talking to with those nurses, until my daddy, you did that to me. Oh, my word. That’s a child who knows you got their back. You got their back 100% you nurses, you be on alert. My daddy is gonna come up in here, from the two year old.

 

Kristina  15:29

Hey, listeners, we’re so grateful to be part of your village. If these conversations and episodes have been impactful to you, we deeply appreciate your support to continue doing the work we love so much for such an amazing nonprofit organization, please visit www.gearup-podcast.com to make a tax deductible contribution. Thank you. Yeah, I think it’s important, right, that we can say to our kids, I know you’re scared, and it’s okay. I’m here. I’m going to help you through it. You can do this.

 

Heather  16:07

You can do this. And keeping that anticipatory period short, remembering that we don’t want to over talk things. I will often say, if a child is having, you know, school refusal and they’re having separation anxiety. We have these big breaks at Holiday and so it’s two weeks off. They’re with family a lot. Don’t talk. Just drop it if they bring it up, talk about it, then meet them where they’re at. But if we keep bringing it up, they never have the chance to let their central nervous system just calm from it, because it’s just kind of like a browser that grinds in their mind, right? So we just don’t want to do that. Another thing that we want to be really mindful of is we’re supporting our kids, and we know that something’s coming up that they might be anxious about. It could be, you know, going overnight to grandma and grandpa’s, or it could be being away from parents, or a test that’s coming up, we want to be able to talk about it, if they talk about it, but not pepper them with questions. Even us as adults, I think it can be overwhelming if we’re managing something and someone isn’t just actively listening. If someone kicks too quickly into problem solving or questioning or throwing out ideas, it’s too much, and it is for children as well. Just be an active listener, meet them where they’re at and avoid really going too far down any road that they don’t want to go down, or that they’re not leading you down.

 

Kristina  17:46

It’s not asking the leading question, right? So like, Are you anxious about your exam today, honey? Instead, how are you feeling about going back to school? That’s what you can ask. Instead, how are you feeling about your exam today? Instead of leading them with, I know you’re going to be anxious about it. So are you anxious about your exam today? Don’t do that.

 

Heather  18:04

Well because that makes it you’re anxious. It’s not pulling out. You can even say, you know, is that anxiety monster cocky today? Is he grabbing hold?

 

Kristina  18:16

 Yeah, but, but try not to lead them, yeah, down that path. 

 

Heather  18:20

Like just assume that is all gonna be good and be like, You got this. I think that was something for me that really stood out, that our kids follow our lead on that so much. It goes back, I’m sure, to being the captain of the ship and being able to say to them, you’ve got this. I know you’ve got this. You’re gonna do your very best.

 

Kristina  18:39

Yeah, we don’t want to unintentionally send a message, right-

 

Heather  18:43

That we think they can’t handle it, yeah? And that this is a situation where you would likely have anxiety. So I’m going to ask you about…

 

Heather  18:49

Yeah, and that we are hitting the panic button, right? Nothing will shake our kids up more quickly than us SOS-ing or hitting a panic button.

 

Kristina  18:56

Yes. So encouraging our children to tolerate their anxiety, right? To be with them in it. It’s also a really powerful thing for ourselves and for our children to learn that feelings really are like waves and they do pass Yes, and you don’t stay in that feeling forever. And so even being with a child who’s in their anxiety, that anxiety is big, being with them and breathing and reminding them that this feeling is going to pass.

 

Heather  19:34

And visualization, I think, can be a really powerful thing for children and adults. Depends how old your child is, but like you said, it comes in waves, right? And you can even take them there and be like, where are we? Where’s the waves? Are we in Lake Michigan? Are we in the ocean? Look on the horizon. Can you see it? Do you see land or who’s there? Do you see the boat. They’re coming for you. Are you gonna get in the boat? Are you gonna swim to shore? Like you’ve got the support and really helping them visualize their way out of it.

 

Kristina  20:07

it? I’m so glad you said that, Heather, because role playing can also be really, really helpful. So to be able to say to a child whose anxiety has shown up really big about going on the trip that you had spoken about this previously, about Zack going on that trip with school, and he was feeling really anxious about it. And so part of what you can do is say, Well, what would be the worst thing that would happen? And then what would you do in that case? Would you phone home? Would you talk to your teacher, would you climb a tree? Like, whatever they’re kind of, what’s the worst thing that could happen, and then role playing that back. That’s

 

Heather  20:48

very powerful, because having a plan is half the battle. The other thing that’s really important to remember is kids store information and pictures, so anytime we can visualize and be like, can you see the shore? Can you see the boat? What would you do in that moment? What’s the worst thing that could happen? You’re a really good problem solver. How would you solve that? They store it in a picture in their head, and then they go back to it when they need to which is really powerful. Another really important thing for us to remember is our children will learn to cope by how we cope.

 

Kristina  21:26

That’s exactly it. When we think about the things that we can do as parents to help our children cope with their anxiety. Number one, we have to get our own anxiety under control. And oh, I love it when we can model for our children how we are managing. So if there’s something that’s happening in my world that has my anxiety monster, you know, really showing up big, I can verbalize to my daughter what I’m doing. So Whoa, my anxiety monster is here, and it is like making stuff cuckoo cajoo inside.

 

Heather  22:02

Grabbing hold.

 

Kristina  22:03

Yep, grabbin’  hold. And so what I’m going to do is I’m going to take some big, deep breaths, and I demonstrate those. My child is nearby. She doesn’t have to come over and watch me do this, but I’m doing it out loud. I’m going to take some deep breaths, then I start doing some of that internal coaching. Like Kristina, you are capable, you are competent, and you can handle this. Kristina, you are capable, competent, and you can handle this. And do some of that out loud, maybe some big stretching, maybe the, you know, rolling my shoulders and making sure I’m taking them down, drinking a nice big glass of water and modeling how I manage my anxiety so that my daughter can see that. For lots of people, it’s turning on music, right? Music, singing, dancing, doing those kinds of things anddoing them in front of your child can really help.

 

Heather  23:00

Yes, for me, it’s exercise always and forever. If I come home and my family at this point knows me well enough they can just look at me and be like, ooh. Maybe a walk. Maybe a run. Maybe lift some weights.

 

Kristina  23:19

Do something…

 

Heather  23:21

Burn whatever that is off. And the breaths. Always cue my kids in, because it’s just something I’ve always done, that they’ve been very intentionally taught. And they will say, What’s the matter mom? I’m like, I’m just, I’m just breathing. And they’re like, No, you’re not. That was a big breath, and that’s true. They know that about me because they’ve seen me cope. They’re my people. They know those things about us. So it’s really important that we model the appropriate things, and we’re gonna talk about what that looks like. They are really, really good ones to help our children cope with anxiety that also will help us. The self talk that you just talked about is a huge one. That inner voice of I’ve got this, I can do this. I know how to shrink my worry monster. I know how to increase my peaceful spot.

 

Heather  24:13

Or sometimes it’s that we have to say, this feels really big, right now, right? It’s not as big as it feels

 

Kristina  24:13

Well and this is a crazy thing about our brain, is that it believes what you tell it. So when I say out loud, I am capable, I am competent, and I can handle this. My brain’s like, Oh, son of a gun, I am capable, competent, and I can handle this. 

 

Kristina  24:36

Yes, or even the phrase, I am safe. I am safe. Keep breathing. Yes, I can handle this. And your body responds right? Your blood pressure goes down, your heart rate goes down. You’re able to be more expansive. Your body releases the intensity of that anxiety.

 

Heather  25:00

And what happens in those moments is our cortisol spikes, right? That’s our stress hormone. And I think the things that I find most effective for me are being outside and being physical, because I’m more physical when I’m outside. And so maybe it’s taking my dog for a walk, a really fast one, or a really brisk one. And being in nature like we’ve talked about before, just regulates that central nervous system. It engages our senses. All of a sudden we have grander perspective. Yes, because nature is so big, it’s all consuming with our senses,

 

Kristina  25:38

and the only thing we needed to do was get in it, yeah, and to feel smaller

 

Heather  25:42

in the world and to gain perspective on whatever it is that’s stressing us out, yep. So that’s a huge thing. Here’s a really important thing about kids, a child’s stress level falls naturally within minutes of being in green spaces, minutes minutes of being in green spaces, that’s powerful. Here’s the other thing, and this is where I think I’m just a giant kid. Outdoor play protects a child’s emotional development, so when they get outside, they’re just more physical loss of free time, which so many kids have in today’s world, yes, really, in a hurried lifestyle, which we’ve talked about in mindfulness of schedules, contributes to increased levels of anxiety and depression, right? We know this. Research shows this, so getting physical, expending energy, gets our endorphins going. Outdoor exercise is way better for children than indoor. They just get more physical outside. Way more physical.

 

Kristina  26:51

And they have the added benefit of all that being outside and in nature naturally brings.

 

Heather  26:57

Yes and serotonin? Happy chemical. You get those serotonin squirts.You get endorphins, because exercise causes the release of endorphins. Outdoor play leads to more vigorous play. We see it all the time, climbing, running, jumping, sledding, tumbling, rough play, all of that is endorphin release for kids. And the current research shows that moderate to vigorous physical activity in childcare settings increased from 1% indoors to as much as 11% outdoors, and when outdoor play was child led, meaning they have freedom of choice. They’re not being instructed. It’s not teacher led. It’s child led.,the amount of vigorous activity further increased to 17%. Look at what that’s doing to the brain and the chemicals in the brain.

 

Kristina  27:58

Yeah, and these are natural healers. 

 

Heather  28:01

Cortisol, reduced. Stress, reduced. Endorphins, raised. Happy, happy, happy endorphins. Serotonin raised. Vitamin D, taken in.

 

Kristina  28:14

Right. Central nervous system regulated. So much good. Oh, powerful. Yeah, that’s a prescription. Absolutely,

 

Heather  28:23

Get outside and get active. That’s it. Hugely helpful. Talk to us about sensory play, yeah?

 

Kristina  28:34

So we’re gonna get outside, we’re gonna get moving. And we also need to know what to do when we’re inside and we are able, for whatever reason, to access the outside and to have that, maybe it’s late at night. I discovered years ago that playing with dried lima beans is very regulating. I know that sounds crazy. It

 

Heather  28:57

It doesn’t sound crazy if you’ve done it. Oh

 

Kristina  28:59

yeah, you get a few bags of dried lima beans, the big ones, and put them in a bowl and cup them in your hand, they sound like waves. When you cup them and release them, it can sound like waves. I have a huge basket of them in my office, and have for decades. And there’s some really nice pressure activity that you can work with. If you dive your hands all the way down to the bottom, you have all that pressure on your arms and on your hands, and it feels so good, even taking a handful and having them go from hand to hand. So it’s all the sensory right? Yep, and they don’t have a weird smell. And as a therapist, I would prescribe for some of my clients to have that sensory play with the lima beans before they tried to go to sleep, because it just calmed them. For kids who had struggled falling asleep, it’s like, yep, spend some time in the lima beans.

 

Heather  29:57

Talk to us also. I heard breaking news, Grace is back in a slime phase.

 

Kristina  30:01

Oh, my God. Don’t talk to me about it.

 

Heather  30:05

Slime has its place in the world.

 

Kristina  30:06

It does. And actually, she’s much better at making it now so it’s not dripping off the table and stuck in all the carpets right now, she’s just able to engage in it. That’s another great sensory play. So I think about with sensory play, things that feel good, things that taste good, things that smell good, things that sound good, right? So it may be again, there’s some music going on and there’s some smell that we particularly like. Maybe you have a candle, or you have some wax, or you have some oils where you can experience that really preferred and comforting smell. It could be something that we’re looking at that is beautiful. I really like the little I think they’re called fidgets, but it’s like water and oil, and oil is colored, and it drops into the water and you can the bubbles. Oh my word. It’s very mesmerizing to watch, right? Or even we called it the calm down jar. And it was a jar filled with, I don’t remember what was all in there, glue and glitter and water and different things, and depending on the viscosity, big word, but I remembered it, depending on the viscosity of the fluid, that glitter would settle at a different pace. And so you could shake up the bottle and and then watch the glitter as it moved through the water and it again, is mesmerizing. Our breathing flows, right? So those kinds of things can be really helpful in decreasing the intensity of the anxiety. 

 

Heather  31:37

And why sensory things are so important is because it brings it back to what is, rather than what could be. Because what anxiety always is, what could be? What if? What if? What if? And being sensory in the moment brings it back to what is.

 

Kristina  31:54

One of my favorite quotes ever, is from Martin Luther King. I’m condensing a quote, but he said, Fear, more often than not, is the misuse of our imagination. And boy, when I really settle on that, I think, yes, I have created a story that is making me anxious about something that hasn’t even occurred.

 

Heather  32:21

Right, letting our mind never all sorts of places, rather than focusing on what is.

 

Kristina  32:26

So when we notice with our senses, it pulls us out of the reactive part of our brain, and it allows us to, like you had said, be really present with what is.

 

Heather  32:37

Yep. I think one thing that I often conveyed to my kids was the goal is not to be fearless, right? We don’t want to be fearless. You just need to be brave enough in this moment to take the next step. And I’m right here. Yep, I’m with you, but let’s take the next step. Yeah, and if your child needs outside help, taking the next step, that is okay. Oh, my word. If you need help, coaching your child along on this, that is normal and okay. And there are professionals that are skilled and educated to help build those coping skills and to help us as parents, see if we have behaviors that are limiting our kids, limiting their growth development, limiting their ability to cope and be resilient.

 

Kristina  33:29

Right. Are we inadvertently contributing to the problem? 

 

Heather  33:33

And that’s a really important lens to have someone take.

 

Kristina  33:37

I am so grateful for Grace’s therapist. She is wonderful and has been such an integral part in Grace’s healing. And I’ve heard parents say, but my kids won’t go to therapy, especially when they get to be like middle school, high school, they’re not going to go. I think that’s okay. You go right model, model for them and learn as much as you can about what it is to parent a child who wrestles with and struggles with anxiety or depression or whatever it may be. We don’t necessarily have to have our child go if they won’t, because forcing somebody into therapy is a really lousy way to do therapy. Instead, we should go and learn what we can and normalize

 

Heather  34:22

Yeah, normalize it for our kids, that this is just what we do.

 

Kristina  34:27

We look for our helpers and therapists our helpers. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey, until next time…

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina  

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell,

 

Heather  

The ODC Network is a nonprofit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  

Since 2000 the ODC network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather 

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 25: Anxiety In Children (Part 1 of 2)

Understanding Anxiety in Children

  • Kristina introduces the topic of anxiety in children, emphasizing its increasing prevalence and her personal connection to it.
  • Heather expresses readiness to discuss the topic, highlighting its importance.
  • Kristina explains how anxiety in young children can resemble other conditions like ADHD or depression, making it difficult to diagnose.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the overlap of symptoms in children, noting the challenge of distinguishing between different conditions.

 

Identifying and Managing Anxiety

  • Kristina stresses the importance of identifying anxiety symptoms in children to provide better support.
  • Heather agrees, noting that untreated anxiety can intensify and lead to depression.
  • Kristina explains that anxiety in children can manifest as physical symptoms like stomach aches or trouble sleeping.
  • Heather adds that separation anxiety is common in preschoolers, often presenting as clinginess or avoidance.

 

Behavioral Manifestations of Anxiety

  • Kristina describes how anxiety can lead to fidgetiness, difficulty focusing, and explosive outbursts in children, sharing an example of her daughter’s sudden explosive behavior due to anxiety.
  • Kristina discusses the challenges of managing anxiety in children with ADHD, emphasizing the need for a comprehensive approach.
  • Heather and Kristina highlight the importance of not labeling children as “shy” or “apprehensive” without understanding the underlying anxiety.

 

Avoidance and Its Impact

  • Kristina explains how avoidance can be a coping mechanism for anxiety, leading to missed opportunities and social isolation.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the consequences of avoidance, including its impact on well-being and relationships.
  • Kristina shares an example of her daughter avoiding schoolwork due to anxiety, illustrating the cycle of avoidance.
  • Heather emphasizes the importance of identifying and addressing avoidance to prevent long-term negative effects.

 

Statistics and Prevalence of Anxiety

  • Heather presents statistics showing the increasing prevalence of anxiety disorders in children.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the impact of societal pressures, such as social media and parental expectations, on anxiety in children.
  • Heather talks about the importance of early intervention to prevent anxiety from turning into depression.
  • Kristina shares her experience of delaying therapy for her daughter due to her own profession, emphasizing the need for external help.

 

Treatment and Coping Strategies

  • Heather discusses the importance of cognitive behavioral therapy and medication in treating anxiety.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the role of parents in seeking help and finding the right therapist for their children.
  • Heather suggests starting with a trusted friend or pediatrician to discuss concerns about a child’s anxiety.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of teaching children coping skills and managing anxiety through therapy.

 

Parenting Strategies for Managing Anxiety

  • Kristina advises parents not to panic and to help children learn to cope with anxiety rather than eliminating it.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the balance between acknowledging a child’s fears and not overreacting.
  • Kristina shares a story about desensitizing a child to a fear using gradual exposure and parental support.
  • Heather emphasizes the importance of modeling healthy coping behaviors for children.

 

Visualization and Role-Playing Techniques

  • Heather suggests using visualization techniques to help children manage anxiety, such as imagining a “peaceful spot.”
  • Kristina discusses the benefits of role-playing to help children prepare for anxiety-provoking situations.
  • Heather highlights the importance of helping children visualize their success and build confidence.
  • Kristina and Heather agree that these techniques can be powerful tools for both children and adults.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Coping With Anxiety:

In this and other episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to the SPOT series –  “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book series by Diane Alber.

 

Nature’s Role In Relieving Stress and Anxiety:

https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-lifestyle/stress-management/spend-time-in-nature-to-reduce-stress-and-anxiety?utm_source=chatgpt.com

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/news/2019/04/09/20-minute-nature-pill-relieves-stress

 

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4204431/



Benefits of Time In Nature:

https://childmind.org/article/why-kids-need-to-spend-time-in-nature/

 

https://richardlouv.com/blog/every-child-needs-nature-not-just-the-ones-with-parent-who-appreciate-natur

 

Benefits of Unstructured Play:

https://www.apa.org/topics/children/kids-unstructured-play-benefits

 

Benefits of Hugs:

https://cincinnatifamilymagazine.com/the-healing-science-of-hugging-your-kids/

 

Benefits of Laughter:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/stress-management/in-depth/stress-relief/art-20044456

 

Body Safety:

Pattie Fitzgerald  – Safely Ever After

 

How Today’s Parents Say Their Approach to Parenting Does – or Doesn’t – Match Their Own Upbringing

 

Mindfulness of Schedules/Benefits of Down Time

 

Impact of Overscheduling on Skill Development

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

 

In prior episodes, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

 

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 25: Anxiety In Children, Part 1 of 2

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re starting a two part series on something that’s affecting more and more children: Anxiety. Statistics show that by age 18, about 30% of children will experience an anxiety disorder, but shockingly, 80% of them won’t get the treatment they need. So it’s more critical than ever for parents and caregivers to recognize the signs and know how to help, especially since it might not look like what we’d expect and sometimes can be confused with other conditions like ADHD or depression.

 

Kristina  00:33

So today we’ll talk more about what anxiety does look like and how it often shows up internally through things like trouble, sleeping stomach aches or avoiding certain situations. These signs can be hard to notice, especially since children are still learning how to express their feelings.

 

Heather  00:52

The good news is there are ways to manage anxiety effectively, and we’ll talk about some of them today – things like cognitive behavioral therapy, medications when needed, and some simple yet powerful strategies that parents can use, like sensory play, outdoor activities and connecting with nature. These simple tools can really make a difference in helping kids feel calm and build their resilience.

 

Kristina  01:18

We’re so glad you’re joining us for this important conversation about how we can better support children who are dealing with anxiety and learn some tangible steps we can take to navigate anxiety in our kids.

 

 

Heather  

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma

 

Heather

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re Support Service Directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina

 

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather

Are you ready? 

 

Kristina and Heather

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan, where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

 

Heather  

Please visit www. ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  02:54

I am really looking forward to the conversation that we get to have today, because it is about anxiety in children. And you know that that’s been very much my world. 

 

Heather  03:07

It’s a lot of people’s world. 

 

Kristina  03:09

It is, and in fact, it’s becoming more and more and more prevalent-

 

Heather  03:13

Absolutely-

 

Kristina  03:14

As the years go by- 

 

Heather  03:15

In children younger and younger. 

 

Kristina  03:17

So Grace, sweet, sweet Grace, has struggled with anxiety since she was really, really young. She comes by it very naturally. I also am an anxious person, and so nature, nurture kind of a lot to try to tease out. But today we’re going to talk about what anxiety looks like in children, and what we can do to help our children who are anxious,

 

Heather  03:43

I’m ready. That is such powerful information. Absolutely. I’m ready, let’s do it.

 

Kristina  03:48

So one of the things that I will talk to parents about that has been helpful for me too, is that in young children, many different things look like the same thing. For example, a child who is anxious can look like a child who has ADHD.

 

Heather  04:06

Because of the hyperactivity…

 

Kristina  04:07

Yes, and for how, for how it manifests. Depression in children, looks a lot like anxiety in children. And I’ll say to parents, it’s like you’re seeing this constellation and you’re trying to make sense of the stars that you’re seeing. And in young children, the constellations overlap, so they have some of the similar symptoms you may see, but they may not have enough of the constellation to actually say your child has clinical anxiety. 

 

Heather  04:37

Yes. And it’s really hard to tease out the individual stars in the constellations. 

 

Kristina  04:43

Yes, absolutely. So we can tend to jump. It’s kind of like way back when I was in the 70s and 80s, everybody was hypoglycemic. Everybody was. And so if you didn’t know what was causing something, you’d say, “Oh, it’s hypoglycemia.” 

 

Heather  04:59

Must be that blood sugar. 

 

Kristina  05:01

We went through a wave where children’s behavior was just identified as, “Oh well, they have ADHD.” And not every child has ADHD, obviously. Childhood is messy. It can look chaotic. Children can look like they’re all 

 

Heather  05:21

Disorganized.

 

Kristina  05:22

Yeah, or hyper, and could be because they’re over tired. 

 

Heather  05:25

And I don’t mean disorganized with stuff. I mean disorganized kind of spatially and mentally. Yeah, it just can look like chaos, right? Times, right? Because that’s how development is at times.

 

Kristina  05:36

And some temperaments, like Artisans, for example, can look super hyperactive because they love to be on the go, and they’re so good with their bodies, and they like to jump off things-

 

Heather  05:48

And they can look like they run on a motor.  But that’s who they are wired to be.

 

Kristina  05:54

So it’s important that we figure out how to identify symptoms of anxiety in children, as it’s important to figure out depression and those other things too, because then we’re able to better support our children.

 

Heather  06:09

I’m so glad you said that, that it is so important to be able to identify that, because if we don’t, we know that the prevalence becomes much more intense as they age, right? Untreated anxiety gets bigger. And then can turn into depression. I think even when you and I were in grad school, they would kind of speak of it as an either or, like you were either ran anxious or you ran depressed. And that was kind of a thing for a bit, and now we know they can very much coexist.

 

Kristina  06:42

Oh, and most often do. And it’s important for us to recognize that, especially in childhood, anxiety is internal. So it may be that anxiety is occurring for quite some time before we see the outward manifestations. So, in children, those outward manifestations vary widely, and they can range from children who experience trouble sleeping or complain about stomach aches or other kinds of physical symptoms that internal feeling is manifest externally, right? They may become particularly clingy or avoidant.

 

Heather  07:25

Right. We see this at the preschool. Separation anxiety.

 

Kristina  07:29

And that’s primarily what it is in young children, is separation anxiety. Children who are anxious may have difficultyfocusing. They can get fidgety. And that’s where we say, you know, everything that moves is not necessarily ADHD.

 

Heather  07:44

Correct.

 

Kristina  07:45

It can be anxiety that’s showing up in that being fidgety or being inattentive, having a difficult time focusing. Kids who are anxious can have these really explosive outbursts. Now, that has been true for Grace, where it’s like,”Where in the world did that come from?”

 

Heather  08:05

Right. It’s like she had a capacity to take things in and to manage and to cope. And then all of a sudden, there’s notmuch warning sometimes, that that capacity is not just diminished, gone. Completely gone. And then the volcanic explosion happens.

 

Kristina  08:22

Yeah. And I still see it with her, even at 15, explosiveness is not as much, but being avoidant and having difficulty focusing. Now she also has ADHD. But those two things you cannot completely separate for a person that has, you know, kind of both of those conditions, and that would be Grace. So growing up for her, it took us a while to figure out kind of that’s what was happening. And once we did, then we were able to move in with some other things that we could do to help her, and we’re going to talk about that a little bit later. Another thing that can make anxiety kind of difficult to pinpoint is that we use lots of words to describe children’s behavior, and any of these things could also be caused by anxiety – things like being self conscious or shy, maybe a child feeling kind of apprehensiveor worried or being particularly fearful. They don’t do a good job of capturing what the child’s actually struggling with. And if you don’t identify what they’re actually struggling with and just try to kind of treat what you’re seeing the shyness or being avoidant or being worried, it doesn’t help that underlying anxiety. 

 

Heather  09:41

Don’t you think that we’ve learned as therapists to de personalize so much of that,  like, rather than saying, “Oh, she’s really anxious,” to be like, “Oh, the anxiety got hold of her.” That kind of depersonalization – we want to be so careful that we’re not creating an inner voice within children, when we talk about, “Oh, there’s just so shy. It takes them a really long time,” because so often we say those things to people in front of the child.

 

Kristina  10:14

And then they take on that persona: “I’m shy.” 

 

Heather  10:17

They live into it.

 

Kristina  10:18

Yeha. So we need to be careful about kind of just looking at the outward manifestations and thinking, “Aha, that’s it. My child is shy, and so I need to…”

 

Heather  10:32

Give them more opportunities to not be shy. 

 

Kristina  10:35

Right. And really push them out of that comfort zone. And if they’re being avoidant, because they’re anxious, pushing them will only make them more anxious. So it’s really important that we learn to identify it. It’s also important that we understand the consequences when we don’t. 

 

Heather  10:55

Kristina, you said something really important there about avoidance. Talk to us more about what you mean by avoiding, right?

 

Kristina  11:03

So avoiding can look like a lot of different things. It can look like being very resistant to participating in something that peaks that child’s anxiety. So it could be going to the grocery store because the grocery store for whatever reason, for that child really triggers that anxiety to go up. So they’re not going to want to go to the grocery store, even if they liked to go to the grocery store before, something has happened there. They lost sight of you. Something has happened. Oh, you know how we’re all just legs right to the little ones. And sometimes they find the wrong pair of legs and they follow them, or they, you know, are going to them for comfort, and they’re not the right person. That can really challenge a child, especially if they have anxiety that now the store is not a safe place. So they want to avoid those things as they get older. My daughter avoids her schoolwork like the plague, and that has a whole lot to do with her anxiety. Because once she begins it, she already in her brain knows it’s going to be completely overwhelming. It’s going to take way too much time. I’m not going to understand it. It’s going to be too hard, right? She has this whole tape going in her head of those anxious thoughts that then, in order to avoid the anxious thoughts, she avoids the activity. So that’s what being avoidant is about. And it can be really fun stuff. And you think, “I don’t know why you want to avoid this. This is super fun. You’re gonna have a great time.” And yet, they avoid it. So children in general like to have the same stories read to them over and over and over again. Part of that is because it’s predictable. They know what’s going to happen, and they can settle into really enjoying the book.

 

Kristina  11:32

There’s a comfort and security there, because it’s known.

 

Kristina  12:52

Right. So children who run more anxious have a harder time starting books that are unknown, because they don’t know what’s going to happen, and all of a sudden, that anxiety gets tapped.

 

Heather  13:04

Because there are so many possibilities. What could be. And we don’t know where we’re going.

 

Kristina  13:10

Right. So they may avoid having new books read to them, or experiencing those kinds of new things. We all avoid some things, because that’s a way that we cope with life. The trouble is, when avoiding those things really interfereswith a person’s well being, interferes with their relationships, right? Interferes with their ability to get through the day. So we see that in children. Many times we just force them into it again, because we’re treating the symptom asopposed to what’s actually happening.

 

Heather  13:42

What’s underneath, what’s the cause. Right.

 

Kristina  13:45

And this is not some kind of personal failure. It’s not like you’re a terrible parent if your child is anxious, at all. First of all, we all have anxiety. We have to have some anxiety. It’s what helps us prepare and get ready for things that may be tricky or difficult or unknown. It allows us to react the way that we need to react.

 

Heather  14:09

Hey, hey, listeners, Kristina and I are so grateful to be a part of your village. If these conversations and episodes areimpactful to you, we deeply appreciate your support to continue doing the work we love so much for such an amazing nonprofit organization, please visit www.gearup-podcast.com to make a tax deductible contribution. Thank you.

 

Kristina  14:38

Anxiety, in and of itself, isn’t a bad thing having too much anxiety is.

 

Heather  14:43

Yes. There’s a tipping point. Let’s talk about some of the current statistics. So if we look at the prevalence rates of anxiety disorders, we’ll see that the numbers rise as children get older. And we, because of our world, our kids are dealing with so much more than we ever were.  It’s the social media. It’s the school pressures. It’s that there are so many just societal pressures in general. We just talked about parental perfectionism. And that, within that, there are two component: there’s parent perfection, and then there’s child expectations. Kristina, you alluded to this already, that anxiety disorders are internal, like that anxiety is internal. It’s cognitive. And so that also is why we seeit as kids develop and become older. That’s why the rates go up, because their cognition is developing. And so those rates increase as they gain that cognition. Separation anxiety is what you had said we see in our preschool world. And we see even within that varying extreme, varying levels, right? And it’s interesting too, there’s this parent, child component to it. And we’ll talk about when us as parents are carrying an anxiety. And how our kids can pick up on that. And it kind of feeds them in ways. But even in just that separation anxiety spectrum, there’s huge differences in how intensely children feel that. So anxiety is a very real thing. It can be a very debilitating thing when not treated. And we don’t want to leave it untreated. A study of more than 10,000 kids interviewed by trained professionals found that 30% had developed an anxiety disorder before they were 18. That’s a lot. Three out of 10 kids is a lot. 

 

Kristina  16:46

It’s extremely prevalent. And it’s getting more prevalent as the years go by. 

 

Heather  16:50

It is, absolutely. And that’s not just because we’re getting better at diagnosing it. There are a lot of factors that go into that. We are getting better at diagnosing it. Also it’s just happening more frequently. Another really important factor for us to be aware of, and probably a huge part of why we’re talking about this: 80% of kids with anxiety don’t get treatment. That’s way – That’s eight out of 10. 

 

Kristina  17:16

Yes, which has devastating consequences, right? 

 

Heather  17:20

It absolutely does. It leads to lifelong, perhaps mental well being issues. 

 

Kristina  17:26

It doesn’t have to be that way.

 

Heather  17:28

No, because we can teach them early on how to cope and how to manage and how to vocalize and verbalize their feelings. 

 

Kristina  17:36

It took me a long time to get therapy for Grace. And part of that had to do with being in the business we’re in. We know a lot of the therapists of the area, so that sets up this whole dual relationship thing. 

 

Heather  17:48

Well, and we always have to factor in I know you and I have talked about this several times. Our children live with therapists. So do our husbands. Poor souls. Lucky people. Doesn’t always make me feel so lucky.

 

Kristina  18:01

Right. But there is this hurdle that parents need to kind of overcome, at least I did, even as an anxious person. I’m an anxious person. I love being in therapy. Think everybody should have a therapist, because we all got stuff to work out. So I’m not anti therapy at all. I’m a therapist, and I understand how helpful it is. But there is something about admitting as a parent, especially as a therapist parent, that your child needs help beyond what you’re able to offer. So that took me a while. And it can take parents a while. We want to be able to help our kids on our own. But it’s important to recognize when it’s time to get them help, because if we don’t, things can happen. So talk to us about some of the things that can happen when we don’t treat anxiety.

 

Heather  18:46

 Yeah, if we leave our anxiety untreated for too long, it will very likely turn into depression. And then those things will be co occurring. And they will feed one another. And that’s a really important thing to know. And like I said, people used to say those didn’t coexist. And now we just know that they very much do. So there are things like cognitive behavioral therapy that are very powerful and impactful. There are also medications that can offer great assistance. But getting help is such a huge part, and that might be talking to a friend initially, that feels like a safe space, right? I think we all have our starting place of what that looks like for us. We want to call the friend that we know can give it to us straight, and be able to say, “I think that might be a really good idea. You can start with yourpediatrician and ask them.” And then it just becomes figuring out who’s a good fit. So often people start with maybe one therapist and they think, “It isn’t that great. Find another one. Go find another one that’s going to work well for your child, for your family. If your child’s in therapy, you’re also going to have a big piece of that. We both worked with kids. And you work with the parents as much as you do with the child. So find someone that you want in your life for a bit to teach those things. Treatment doesn’t have to be a lifelong thing. I think that’s a piece of it. For some people, they think “I’m gonna embark on this and this is gonna be the rest of my life.” Maybe. And maybe that’s okay. And also maybe not. Maybe we just need some coping skills. Maybe there are things we can tweak and adjust that will have huge impact. It doesn’t really matter. We just need to get relief, right? 

 

Kristina  20:42

Yeah, for sure. And there are things that we’re discovering every day that can help individuals who struggle with anxiety: yoga and practicing that very controlled presence with your body can be super helpful. So can things like singing together…

 

Heather  21:02

Being in nature. And we’ll talk about all of those things. Talk to us first. What can we do as parents when we suspect – we hear this from parents a lot – “I think my child might have some anxiety.” We will hear about separation anxiety, but also they see these behavioral shifts. Maybe it’s the explosive fits that come seemingly out of nowhere. Maybe it’s that their child is refusing to participate in something or doesn’t want to go somewhere. Talk to us about how we can identify and then help our kids in those moments.

 

Kristina  21:41

Right. So, first of all, we need to not panic, okay? Us panicking will not help our children. And many times, when children are like chronically anxious, even the most well meaning parent can do things that actually make it worse, because we don’t want our children to suffer, right? And so we try to protect our children from the thing that might be causing them anxiety. If my child is anxious going to the grocery store, I don’t make her go to the grocery store anymore. That doesn’t necessarily help. So it’s important to kind of get in our minds what we’re trying to do with anxiety and what we’re not trying to do. So one of the things to just make peace with is the understanding that we are not trying to eliminate the anxiety. What we’re trying to do is help children and others learn to cope with the anxiety- 

 

Heather  22:40

And manage it. 

 

Kristina  22:41

To manage the anxiety. It’s like the anxiety is not going away, so how are we going to cope with it? None of us want to see a child that’s unhappy. But it’s important that we don’t remove the things that are stressing them, right? What those stressors are?

 

Heather  22:57

Because there will always be stress. Stress will come.

 

Kristina  23:01

And we can’t bubble wrap our children, right? So if we help them learn how to tolerate that anxiety and function as best they can, that’s what’s going to help them. 

 

Heather  23:13

Yes, that’s what builds the resilience.

 

Kristina  23:15

Even when they’re feeling anxious, right? That’s going to help them learn to tolerate it. And in fact, the anxiety will decrease over time. So I have in my office, and I’ve had this for years, this stuffed bright orange… I call it my “worry monster.” It has a humongous mouth that you can put things inside of it. Okay? It’s actually, it’s not a terrifying looking monster. I think it’s kind of hilarious. And kids do too. They really, really like it. But I’ll talk about how that’s my “anxiety monster,” and it’s always with me. Sometimes it’s really little. Sometimes it’s pretty big. And one of the things that I can do to help my anxiety get bigger or smaller is to decide if I’m going to feed it. And I’ll talk about how that anxiety monster can be kind of a bully, right? It’ll be like, “You’re too scared to go in that store. I’m too big.” And if you don’t go in the store, you’re actually feeding it. Because that big old bully, worry monster got to make the decision for you. And sometimes we let it because it’s just what we have to do in the moment. And we recognize that that is going to make the worry monster bigger. But if the worry monster is telling you to do or not do something, and you’re able to do the opposite, that worry monster gets smaller and smaller, and his voice gets weaker and weaker. And he’s not nearly as powerful over us. So being able to remember that our job as parents is not to eliminate anxiety. But help our child learn to manage that anxiety, even as it’s present.

 

Heather  25:05

We use in our preschool world Diane Alber’s SPOT emotions. And I think they’re brilliant. They’re so simple, but so effective, especially for our age group. And she has the gray one, which is worry, and she also has a green spot emotion. They have faces on them. They’re plushies. It’s what we use. I have the big plushies and the little ones. Andit is literally the visual. I use them together. And it’s so gray, as we’re “Anxiety” is really its name, but we call it “Worry,” just to make it more developmentally appropriate for three and four year olds. And then there’s the peaceful spot, which is green and just looks calm. And of course, we tell them the story about it. But we do talk about when that worry gets too big, what does it feel like in our body? Like when we get worried and talk about how we can tighten up our jaw, our bellies might hurt, and maybe our shoulders are real tight and our neck is tense,and how we hold that worry in our body. And we’ll have the kids do that. And then we’ll talk about, you know, that’s when our worry spots really big. And then we’ll show the little plushie and be like and really, we want our worry spot to be little. And our peaceful spot to be nice and big. Because how does our body feel? How does our body feel when our peaceful spot is big and our worry spot is nice and small? And it’s so smart, what you said about feeding the worry monster, because he is a bully, and to be able to say to kids bigger than preschool, like “he gets cocky.” And he kind of can taunt you. And even for adults, that makes a lot of sense. And it depersonalizes, right? That whole anxiety experience. It’s like, “Ooh, that worry monster. He’s got hold of you right now, and he’s getting cocky”. 

 

Kristina  26:59

And I’ll say to children and anyone really that when worry shows up and we feel it in our body, it’s important to be able to say like, “Hey, I know you. You’re the worry monster, and you think you’re tough stuff, but really you’re not. I know what to do with you. I’m strong.” So to not be afraid of the feelings, because we know the things that we can do to help grow our peaceful spot.

 

Heather  27:23

And that we do that work alongside our kids, right? To be able to say to them, “There will always be worry spots. There will be things that grow our worry spot. But what are the things we can do to shrink that and grow our peaceful spot? And avoidance we just don’t want to avoid so much. We want to help them cope. We want to help them grow the skill. That’s the essence of coping. And avoidance ultimately does reinforce anxiety. And it impacts their ability to cope. It impacts their inner voice. And when we can say to them, “I’m here, I’ve got you. I see that anxiety being cocky. You know what? You’ve got strong shoulders. Let’s take our deep breaths. I believe in you. I’m right here with you. Yep. Let’s do this.” All of a sudden, that worry monster shrinks. And then your child, they feel empowered.

 

Kristina  27:48

That’s when that confidence spot really grows.

 

Heather  28:24

Yes and the bravery, right? And we can talk about what it means to be brave-

 

Kristina  28:29

In the face of that anxiety…

 

Heather  28:32

And how we all need to work on being brave. 

 

Kristina  28:34

Yep.

Kristina 

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey, until next time…

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina  

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell,

 

Heather  

The ODC Network is a nonprofit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  

Since 2000 the ODC network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather 

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

 

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey, until next time…

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina  

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell,

 

Heather  

The ODC Network is a nonprofit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  

Since 2000 the ODC network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather 

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 24: Parental Perfectionism

 

Responding To A Parent’s Question on Self-Talk and Parenting Challenges

  • Heather introduces a question from a preschool parent who listens to the podcast, expressing excitement about addressing the question.
  • Kristina appreciates the involvement of parents in the community and the importance of being part of the village.
  • Heather reads the parent’s email, who discusses her gratitude for the parenting classes and her interest in addressing self-talk in parenting.
  • The parent expresses a desire to hear about one’s own negative self-talk as a parent and how to manage disappointment in parenting.

 

“And so when we mess up as parents and we acknowledge that with our kids, it demonstrates vulnerability, it demonstrates courage. It demonstrates that we don’t have to be perfect. It demonstrates that we can mess up and still start again. It normalizes that, and it creates a safe place.”

 

Positive Aspects of Messing Up as a Parent

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of acknowledging that no one is perfect and that “messing up” is a part of being human.
  • Kristina shares a personal memory of realizing her mother was not perfect, which helped her understand humanity better.
  • They emphasize that making mistakes and being vulnerable with children teaches them empathy, compassion, and forgiveness.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that messing up and being open about it creates a safe space for children and models resilience.

 

“Messing up and being vulnerable with our children about that teaches them how to offer empathy and compassion and forgiveness if we need to ask their forgiveness for something…and they get to learn those things within their family first, right? Before they go practice in the real world.”

 

Handling High Expectations and Perfectionism

  • Heather and Kristina define parental perfectionism as “trying to be the perfect parent while knowing it’s unattainable.”
  • They discuss the components of parental perfectionism: high, unrealistic expectations and the fear of failure.
  • Kristina shares her experience of passing on her perfectionism to her daughter and the importance of recognizing and managing it.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the societal pressure to achieve perfection and the critical need for parents to redefine what success means in parenting.

 

“I think we begin best when we define what parental perfectionism is…There’s no perfect parent. Perfection doesn’t even exist. It’s unattainable. It is too high of a standard. It’s not reachable. So it’s understanding that, number one. 

And I think defining it as trying to be the perfect parent while worrying about one’s ability to be one is the really the best way to define parental perfectionism. We’re sort of living in this ‘I’m trying to be perfect’ while simultaneously knowing ‘I can’t be, because no one can,’ which feels like a hamster on a wheel. And it is exhausting. It is exhausting and the whole foundation of that is fear.”

 

Signs and Management of Perfectionism

  • Heather and Kristina identify signs of perfectionism, such as setting unrealistically high expectations, being critical of mistakes, and struggling with receiving compliments.
  • They discuss the importance of recognizing perfectionism and reframing it to be more realistic and less demanding.
  • Heather emphasizes the need for self-awareness and the support of a village to manage perfectionism.
  • Kristina shares the concept of a mentor parent, someone who provides guidance and reassurance, and the importance of having a support system.

 

“Because we have a society that pumps us with the beauty of all things in life and the perfect life, right? So it’s our job to go back to what we want in our foundations. What do we want to teach? What do we want to live into? So the ‘high and demanding goals’ part of the parental perfectionism can land either on the parent or the child. Like always wanting as a parent to be at the top of our game. Always demanding that we’re in a good mood. That everybody’s happy. That is not realistic life, to do all the nice things.”

 

When Things Still Go Wrong Despite Following Experts’ Advice

  • Heather and Kristina address the question of “What to do when things still go wrong despite following experts’ advice.”
  • They emphasize the importance of progress over perfection and the need to get back to the basics when things go awry.
  • Heather shares a story about her daughter Ava and her horse to illustrate how unexpected events can happen and the importance of staying calm and regulated.
  • They discuss the importance of laughter and finding humor in difficult situations to manage stress.

 

“And we want the perfect food and the perfect home and the perfect Christmas card photos. It robs our joy of being present for so many moments. And the quest is so deceptive, because you can be lulled into believing it’s possible, and it’s not.

It makes me think of like food commercials when you know they have the perfect stack of pancakes, but you see the behind the scenes, and that’s not syrup, it’s motor oil. Yes, it’s like, these are two things that are the same. These are homemade pancakes and these are TV pancakes. Yes, this one tastes good. This one is inedible because it has motor oil. It’s toxic. It’s the same thing, right? It’s reminding ourselves that so much of what is put in front of us isn’t actual, real life, and that we shouldn’t try to achieve it.”

 

What Keeps Families Connected Despite Imperfections

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of family foundations and the village in keeping families connected.
  • They emphasize the need to break cycles of high expectations and dysfunction in parenting.
  • Heather talks about the importance of recognizing and valuing small growth and celebrating small steps.
  • Kristina talks about the role of friends and the community in providing different perspectives and support for parents.

 

“And I think as perfectionists, we need to be aware that we can get into this ‘all or nothing’ kind of mindset. And, instead, we need to intentionally shift ourselves to ‘reasonable time,’ ‘reasonable effort.’ Not ‘it has to be done 100% or don’t even bother.’”

 

Final Thoughts and Encouragement

  • Heather and Kristina express gratitude for the parent who asked these important questions and the opportunity to share their insights.
  • They emphasize prioritizing being present and connected with children, rather than striving for perfection.
  • Heather suggests keeping a gratitude journal to document positive feedback from friends and small growth in children.
  • Kristina concludes by reminding parents that they don’t need to be experts to be remarkable parents and that presence and connection are key.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Benefits of Time In Nature:

https://childmind.org/article/why-kids-need-to-spend-time-in-nature/

 

https://richardlouv.com/blog/every-child-needs-nature-not-just-the-ones-with-parent-who-appreciate-natur

 

Benefits of Unstructured Play:

https://www.apa.org/topics/children/kids-unstructured-play-benefits

Benefits of Hugs:

https://cincinnatifamilymagazine.com/the-healing-science-of-hugging-your-kids/

 

Benefits of Laughter:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/stress-management/in-depth/stress-relief/art-20044456

 

Body Safety:

Pattie Fitzgerald  – Safely Ever After

 

How Today’s Parents Say Their Approach to Parenting Does – or Doesn’t – Match Their Own Upbringing

 

Mindfulness of Schedules/Benefits of Down Time

 

Impact of Overscheduling on Skill Development

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

In prior episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In prior episodes, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

 

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 24: Parental Perfectionism

Kristina  00:00

Today, Heather and I are talking about perfectionism in parenting, something many of us feel pressured by, especially in the early years. A preschool parent reached out sharing fears about failing and not getting it right, despite their best efforts.

 

Heather  00:15

It’s so easy for us to get caught up in thinking we need to be perfect. But the truth is, everyone messes up, and that’s okay. It’s part of the process. 

 

Kristina  00:25

Exactly. We can’t be perfect parents, and that’s an important lesson for our kids too. By owning our mistakes, we model resilience, empathy and self compassion.

 

Heather  00:37

And there’s so much value in messing up in front of our kids. It normalizes failure and shows our kids that it’s safe to try, even if things don’t go perfectly.

 

Kristina  00:48

When those high expectations creep in, it helps to reframe our thinking and focus on connection, not perfection. And leaning on other parents for support can really help. 

 

Heather  01:00

Yes. Parenting is about being present, not perfect. We don’t have to get everything right all the time. And we certainly don’t have to do it alone. 

 

Kristina  01:08

Exactly. Today’s conversation is a reminder that parenting is about connection, compassion and showing up for our kids, flaws and all. We’re so glad you’re here to talk about how we as parents can really give ourselves much more grace along the way.

 

Heather  

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma

 

Heather

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re Support Service Directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina

 

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather

Are you ready? 

 

Kristina and Heather

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan, where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

 

Heather  

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. Kristina, we have a question from one of our preschool parents who also listens to this podcast. I’m really excited about this. I’m so glad that she emailed and wanted to ask her question and gave us permission to share it. 

 

Kristina  03:07

We get tons of questions from parents, right? 

 

Heather  03:09

We do.

 

Kristina  03:10

And I love that. I love that. It’s the piece of being part of the village.

 

Heather  03:16

Yes, being in it with them. Absolutely. So I’d love to read her question, and then we’ll go through and we’ll answer. She has three or four questions within this email, so I’m just gonna go ahead and begin by reading her email. 

 

Kristina  03:29

Yep, great. 

 

Heather  03:30

It says: “Hi, I’m in my fourth year of being an ODC preschool mom. I’m so grateful for what it’s meant to my family. I’ve also enjoyed the parenting classes that I’ve been able to attend in person.” That’s really sweet. Thanks for saying that. So nice. We love our parents that come to our classes. “No surprise, I’ve loved the podcast this year. I’msomeone who learns constantly about parenting and also everything else in life, and I love all the information and perspective I can get. I woke up with a big thought this morning and wondered if you’d address it sometime in the podcast?”  Yay. We’d love to. Yes. “My idea is to address self talk or narratives in our mind when things don’t actually go well in parenting. Parents my age get a lot of information, and I love it, but of course, we still fail sometimes.”

 

Kristina  04:24

We all do.

 

Heather  04:25

“And I can often feel so disappointed in myself. I would love to hear the two of you address this, and I’m certain other parents in my generation would too. I love my kids so much, and I absorb so much parenting theory and advice, it’s devastating to me when I can’t do it as well as I wish, especially when it really matters. I know how to say sorry. I know how to course correct. I just need a good self talk about the big picture of parenting when I know I’ll never be perfect, 

 

Kristina  05:01

Wow. This is such a vulnerable question. 

 

Heather  05:07

It is.

 

Kristina  05:08

 I applaud her for her bravery in asking, and it’s something that we all-

 

Heather  05:16

deal with

 

Kristina  05:16

-experience. Yes. 

 

Heather  05:18

Absolutely. I think that’s the first thing is: you are not alone. I think every single parent has felt this way. We all question these things. I didn’t do that right.

 

Kristina  05:28

Have I seriously messed things up? So this mom asks really great questions, and she listed like, four different questions,

 

Heather  05:38

And we broke them out

 

Kristina  05:39

Yeah. And so we’re going to answer those questions that she asked. 

 

Heather  05:42

Yeah. I’ll start with the first one. We want to talk about, what are the positive sides to messing up sometimes. As a parent,

 

Kristina  05:50

Look for the good, baby. Look for the good. Messing up is something that we all do-

 

Heather  05:55

Parent and child-

 

Kristina  05:56

And will continue to do, so embracing it’s pretty important

 

Heather  05:59

All humans.

 

Kristina  06:01

 Yes, no one is perfect. But what’s the good side of messing up? It’s good for our kids for a number of reasons. First of all, it gives them access to our humanity. 

 

Heather  06:13

Yes. Our human-ness. Yes, right? Like we’re imperfect, yeah, and they didn’t come with a manual.

 

Kristina  06:20

I remember. I have a vivid memory of when I recognized that my mom couldn’t fix everything. I thought she could fix everything in the whole world. I thought my mom was always right. I thought everything she did was the best all of that. And I remember vividly when I recognized that that wasn’t true anymore, and that kind of rushed your workshook my foundation. And it’s not that she had intentionally sheltered me as her child from her humanity. It was because that’s what you believe when you’re a little kid. So messing up and acknowledging it and being able to say, “Whoa, that did not go the way I thought it was going to.” It connects our children to our humanity. We are notperfect, and it allows them to experience some empathy for us, and it normalizes messing up. We all fail, sometimes. Things do not go as we planned, sometimes. But what are you going to do when that happens? We’re going to hopefully own it and get back up, try again, make repair. 

 

Heather  07:35

Yeah, it’s so true. It’s I think I’ve said it to my kids forever and ever and ever: it’s not that you fall right, it’s how you rise. So we get back up.

 

Kristina  07:44

Yeah. And so when we mess up as parents and we acknowledge that with our kids, it demonstrates vulnerability, it demonstrates courage. It demonstrates that we don’t have to be perfect. It demonstrates that we can mess up and still start again. It normalizes that, and it creates a safe place.

 

Heather  08:04

And I think it ultimately brings much greater security in the end, because the sky doesn’t fall, the world keeps on spinning, because there will be things for us and for our children that feel like they are really big things in the moment. And then when we get a week out, two weeks out, a month out, and you look back, really wasn’t that very as it was in that moment, it’s that perspective, right?

 

Kristina  08:35

Yep. So one more thing. Well, a couple more things before we move on to our next question that I want to make sure that we cover is that messing up and being vulnerable with our children about that teaches them how to offer empathy and compassion and forgiveness if we need to ask their forgiveness for something

 

Heather  08:57

Which are really wonderful qualities and characteristics. 

 

Kristina  09:00

Yes, and they get to learn those things within their family first, right?

 

Heather  09:04

Before they go practice in the real world. 

 

Kristina  09:06

Yeah, and doing it keeps us humble, right? We are not perfect parents. We do not have all the answers. We are gonna muck it up. And at least what I’ve found with my daughter is she is incredibly gracious. 

 

Heather  09:20

Children are.

 

Kristina  09:21

Incredibly gracious and reassuring to me when I screw things up. Yeah, children are, and 

 

Heather  09:28

They love us.

 

Kristina  09:29

And it models resilience in the face of failures or mistakes. And we can even give voice to it for our younger ones. It’s like you had talked about in a previous episode, about how you kind of narrate through life, and that helps our children gain their language skills and things like that. But even being able to say out loud like :”Ah, rats, that didn’t go the way I thought it would, but that’s okay.”Or “That didn’t turn out quite as I thought. I’ll try again.” And seeing those things out loud.

 

Heather  10:03

Because they’re watching what we do in those moments. Yep. And it’s like, are we going to cry? Are we going to crumble? Can we laugh about it? How do we rise?

 

Kristina  10:14

And you can cry or crumble, just don’t stay there, right? Be like, I’m so disappointed, right through the tears. But I learned something. Every failure can be seen as an opportunity to learn. So it’s like I didn’t fail. I learned 27 new things, the 27 times it didn’t work out right. So reframing that into the growth mindset. 

 

Heather  10:36

Not what did I do wrong? What will I do differently? 

 

Kristina  10:39

Right? What can I learn from this super important so to the mom who asked the question, what are the positive sides of messing up as a parent? There are a plenty.

 

Heather  10:51

Yes, and the real opportunity for growth, parent and child. And to demonstrate that for your child, the healthy normalizing of it is really, really good. 

 

Kristina  11:02

So the next question that this mom asks is: “How do we handle our own high expectations and perfectionism?”

 

Heather  11:11

That’s one sentence, but it’s such a huge question. 

 

Kristina  11:14

Oh my word, yes. 

 

Heather  11:14

So there’s a lot here to really think about. And I think we begin best when we define what parental perfectionism is, and you’ve already said there’s no perfect parent. Perfection doesn’t even exist. It’s unattainable. It is too high of a standard. It’s not reachable, no. So it’s understanding that number one. And I think defining it as trying to be the perfect parent while worrying about one’s ability to be one is the really the best way to define parental perfectionism. We’re sort of living in this I’m trying to be perfect while simultaneously knowing I can’t be yes because no one can, which feels like a hamster on a wheel. And it is exhausting, right? 

 

Kristina  11:19

It is exhausting. And for me, the whole foundation of that is fear. Well, because if I mess up, what? 

 

Heather  12:18

Yes. And so there are two components to it. And the one is the exceedingly high expectations that are unrealistic, So demanding. Demanding goals. Demanding standards. And then two: the fear of failure. The fear of failure. And oh, when fear gets wrapped up into stuff, it feels really big and really cocky. 

 

Kristina  12:41

Yeah, it does. And I always think of fear as being this thing that keeps you kind of cramped and insane. You can’t be free. No, too fearful of what might happen

 

Heather  12:53

And fear, the definition of it, is “significant and persistent worry about not achieving your goals” in this instance, likein regards to this perfection. So this fear is truly a failure, and to have significant and persistent worry that doesn’t help us as parents, be our best. It feels so heavy to me, doesn’t it to you, too? It feels just like we’re slogging through when we have this persistent weight and pressure on us. So worry about not being good enough, doubting ourselves, wondering what we should have done differently, afraid to make mistakes, and fear that our children will not turn out the way we want because of something we’ve done.

 

Kristina  13:39

And one of the things that I’ve learned being a perfectionist myself is that for me, and I have apologized to my daughter for it, and I fully own it that has bled onto her, right? And even though I didn’t intend it, because I don’t want her to be perfectionistic. I don’t want that for her life. Boy, those high, high standards that I have for myself and others is something like when she asked the question, how do I handle that? Yeah, that’s a really good question, because we can say, Yeah, I know I’m a perfectionist, and I don’t want to be anymore, and I want to not pass that on to my children. But how?

 

Heather  14:20

Yeah, it’s so tricky. I want to go back to the high and demanding goals. Okay, good, because we have a society that pumps us with the beauty of all things in life and the perfect life, right? So it’s our job to go back to what we want in our foundations, what do we want to teach? What do we want to live into? So the high and demanding goals part of the parental perfectionism can land either on the parent or the child. Like always wanting as a parent to be at the top of our game. Always demanding that we’re in a good mood. That everybody’s happy. That is not realistic life to do all the nice things. My mother almost loses her mind that at times I use paper plates. I’m gonna say that differently. Lots of times I use paper plates. She thinks they’re straight from the devil. Yeah, like, she just doesn’t like it. And I, I set one on fire in my microwave the other day because it was a really pretty Christmas one, and it had that metallic in it, yeah, literally caught fire, oops. And then I still ate the food. And my husband was like,”That had to be toxic.” Well, real life, I was hungry, and the food didn’t catch on fire, just that little plate, slide it off onto a different one. 

 

Kristina  15:42

Oh, my word. 

 

Heather  15:43

So you can see this perfectionism thing I gave up on a long time ago.

 

Kristina  15:49

Yes.Yyeah, yeah, yeah. 

 

Heather  15:50

But that’s the reality is that we’re pumped all the time with the beautiful table settings. My family meals, if we had potatoes, they were eating out of a pot. Yep, it wasn’t a glass crystal, anything.

 

Kristina  16:04

In your family growing up, or in your family now?

 

Heather  16:07

Now.

 

Kristina  16:07

Yeah, but what about your family growing up?

 

Heather  16:09

Um, no, we ate them out of the pot then too. But if it was like Sunday dinner or a holiday, ooh, it was like, get out the fine china, like we’re doing all that. Yeah, nope, the fine china is in a box that has been passed down for generations on a shelf continue to be in the storage room. Like, if we use a hard plate, it’s a good day, folks, yep, and we could trip ourselves up on that stuff, yeah, with even, like decorations for holidays, right? We just came through Christmas and that it has to be so perfect. And we want the perfect food and the perfect home and the perfect Christmas card photos. It robs our joy of being present for so many moments. 

 

Kristina  16:52

It does. And the quest is so deceptive, because you can be lulled into believing it’s possible, and it’s not.

 

Heather  17:03

No. It makes me think of like food commercials when you know they have the perfect stack of pancakes, but you see the behind the scenes, and that’s not syrup, it’s motor oil. Yes, it’s thicker. Yes, it’s like, these are two things that are the same. These are homemade pancakes and these are TV pancakes. Yes, this one tastes good. This one is inedible because it has motor oil. It’s toxic. It’s the same thing, right? It’s reminding ourselves that so much of what is put in front of us isn’t actual, real life, and that we shouldn’t try to achieve it.

 

Kristina  17:40

Yeah, completely agree. So how do we manage? 

 

Heather  17:45

Well, let’s talk about, what are some of the signs that someone is perfectionistic? Walk us through like, what does that look like?

 

Kristina  17:53

Just like you had said, we set unrealistically high expectations for ourselves and for others. We are very quick to find fault. I have been accused of being negative, and I’m really not. I’m like this eternal optimist, like my husband, he’d be like chin on the floor when he hears me say this, because I’m incredibly optimistic, but I am a critical thinker, and I’m critical of errors. I expect excellence.

 

Heather  18:24

Yeah, and that partly is because of your temperament, right? We’re both idealists. We both love to grow people. We really are constantly growing ourselves. My husband will say to me, “Sometimes I think you’re too hard on Ava.” Oh, yeah, she trains, she competes, yeah, I find that so interesting, but I have to listen to him, right? He knows me better than anyone. He’s in my company, probably more than anyone else. And if he’s saying that to me, he’s saying it for a reason, so then I really have to be like, “Huh? I wonder what it is?” And I’ll ask him, “So what is it that you feel like is too harsh?” And he’s like, “You just have really high expectations.” And the thing that I have to remind myself is: she already sets high expectations herself. I don’t need to up the ante. 

 

Kristina  19:16

No, you’re right. So we perfectionists, right? Have exceedingly high, unreachably high expectations for ourselves and for others. We tend to be pretty critical of mistakes. We can procrastinate on stuff because we fear failure. So it can be hard to start things or try new things because we might not be good at it.

 

Heather  19:40

You know what else we’re not very good at? 

 

Kristina  19:42

Tell me.

 

Heather  19:43

Receiving compliments.

 

Kristina  19:44

Amen sister well 

 

Heather  19:46

Or it just feels uncomfortable, right?

 

Kristina  19:47

Right. I absolutely agree. And perfectionists aren’t great at celebrating their achievements. I remember you had to, like, drag me to graduation when we graduated with our masters because I’m like, “It’s not that big of a deal.” And you were like, “No, we are celebrating this accomplishment.” Perfectionists don’t tend to focus on or even enjoy celebrating their accomplishments, because in their minds, many times, they could have done better.

 

Heather  20:19

Even with this podcast, people will say, I don’t know if they say it to you sometimes, like, “Yeah, they have their own podcast.” Not about you and I, they’re talking about someone else. And every once in a while, I’m like, “Huh. So do we.” Yeah, I don’t even really think about it, because we’re just doing it right? And it’s just us. It’s just us doing this, and it’s not a big deal. I don’t think anything of it until somebody else says it about someone else. And I think, “Oh. Huh. So do we.”

 

Kristina  20:46

And when you’re a super high achiever and you don’t try things that you’re not going to be good at, and you’ve never had to really face, I mean, I think every play or musical I tried out for, I got the part that I tried out for tricky. Every job I’ve ever applied for, I’ve gotten.

 

Heather  21:01

Me too. Played sports. Made the team. Started. It was easy, right, right. High School? Never really had to study. Guess what? Got to college. Had to study. That was a learning curve. And that’s the discomfort right? Where all of a sudden it was like, oh, everything else just kind of always fell into place. And I really have to work at this now. Because I hadn’t really had to work at it before.

 

Kristina  21:30

Yeah. And that can be kind of a crisis of identity.

 

Heather  21:33

Yeah. Because I was like, “Oh, am I broken? Why is this so hard for me? Am I not smart?” 

 

Kristina  21:38

Yep. All right. So now that we’ve gotten all into our perfectionistic selves, we’ve got to talk about the question that she asked: how do we manage it?

 

Heather  21:48

How do we manage it? How do we manage it? Yeah, we have to recognize it first and foremost. 

 

Kristina  21:53

Girl, a good old consciousness raising. 

 

Heather  21:55

Absolutely. And what that means is we bring it to the forefront of our consciousness. And when someone brings it to our attention, like my sweet husband, who probably is gonna dip his toe very gently into that and be like, is this gonna land or is it gonna go off like a bomb, right? I think we’re all kind of like that. And to be able to say, Okay, if he’s telling me this, or if it’s somebody else telling us, that we don’t just get defensive, we’re able to take a look at it and pick that up and assess.

 

Kristina  22:28

We need to be aware right? When that perfectionism rears its ugly head. And intentionally reframe it. 

 

Heather  22:35

And so we have to find what works for us. What is going to pull us back to reality and get us out of that headspace.

 

Kristina  22:44

Practicing saying things like, “that’s good enough.” 

 

Heather  22:46

“I’m gonna be done with that now. This is no longer serving me well.” And sometimes it’s being able to say “I tried it,and by gosh, I’m really proud of myself. Didn’t go as I thought it was going to, but I tried, and at least I stepped up to the plate I got in the game.” I didn’t just not ever try, because I was fearful that it wouldn’t be perfect.

 

Kristina  23:12

 Yep. Well, and I think as perfectionists, we need to be aware that we can get into this all or nothing, all or nothing, kind of mindset. And instead, we need to intentionally shift ourselves to reasonable time, reasonable effort, not it has to be done 100% or don’t even bother.

 

Heather  23:36

Right. We gave it our best go, and now we’re gonna be done. We’re gonna lay it down. I know, for me personally, and I think this is so true for so many people, is that we suffer in silence. As parents. there are things that we’re going to wonder, like, Did we really mess that up? Is my child going to bear the brunt of that decision, or of how we did that, or whatever it might be, those things are very real feelings. But I think we can trick ourselves that we’re the only ones feeling that way. And this is where you go back to your village. You lean on that village, and you go there. You get vulnerable, you have honest conversations, and when you create that space where you can be honest and truthful and vulnerable, what I’ve always found and always observed is that somebody else is always feeling the exact same way. They’re carrying the exact same worry, or they’re worrying about something that might be slightly different but with the same intensity. And there’s real power in not feeling like you’re the only one, but so often that suffering happens in silence and alone because

 

Kristina  24:58

we want. To have this social media life,

 

Heather  25:02

yes, where every perfection, yes, yes, great.

 

Kristina  25:05

And life’s a carnival and everything else, and that’s just not life. 

 

Heather  25:10

Nope, there will be days there will. Mama said there’d be days like this. And sometimes I’m like, “Oh, she didn’t say there’d be a lot of days like she said there would be some days, but there are a lot of days like this. I saw something recently Simon Sinek, who is a great leadership speaker, and he was telling a story about one of his really good friends reaching out to him when she was having a really hard day and they hadn’t connected because the text that she sent him only said, Hey, do you want to hang out tonight? And he was so upset that he had just missed this, because he’s like, how did I know that that text was you sort of crying out for help? Yeah? Because it sounds just like, Hey, you want to get together. Yay, you got some extra time. Been a long time. Yeah, yeah. And so he was like, we need to come up with a way to cue each other that this is an SOS like, I need you type of thing. And so she had read somewhere. His friend had read, and this is him telling the story that eight minutes is all that it takes eight minutes of time from another friend to not feel alone in a moment of stress, in a moment of need. So the two of them eight minutes we can all step out of our lives, wherever we are, for eight minutes. And I think this is really important to remind our kids of too This was friend to friend. This could also be parent to child, because it’s the exact same concept. It’s being able to have someone devote eight minutes to your moment of need, and to be able to hear it and just be present for it. I never really got that. Do you remember when people started saying, Do you have time to hold that space? Yes. I was like, what does that mean? Do you have time to hold space for this? I was like, I don’t know what that means. This is what it means being able to for eight minutes hold the space of I’m going to be present, fully present, fully present for what my friend or my child or my spouse needs right now. Not going to give advice. Nope, I’m going to listen. Yep, I’m going to be kind of a passive participant, but actively listening, yes, fully present, yep, not giving advice, not solving problems, just being there. So they came up with the code. Their code is, now, do you have eight minutes and then they know, oh, this is a time of stress and a moment of need, right? 

 

Kristina  27:58

One of those conversations that I need to have, I need to know I’m not alone. 

 

Heather  28:01

And  we can step out of a meeting for eight minutes. We can leave our work day for eight minutes. We can pull alongside the road,

 

Kristina  28:09

Or we could say, “I need eight minutes.” Sometimes today great doesn’t have to be this moment, but I do need eight minutes. 

 

Heather  28:17

Yeah, you have to be able to say what you need, and then knowing, you know, going back to the vulnerability, the ability to be vulnerable, and not that you’re going to be that way with every person, certainly not right, right, especially if you’re an introvert, because that’s hard. But there are the people that hopefully we have in our village that we can say, you got eight minutes.

 

Kristina  28:41

Yeah, Mama down. And I need to know I’m not alone. Hey, listeners, we’re so grateful to be part of your village. If these conversations and episodes have been impactful to you, we deeply appreciate your support to continue doing the work we love so much for such an amazing nonprofit organization, please visit www.GearUp-podcast.com to make a tax deductible contribution. Thank you. So I thought this was super cool. My mom actually had like a mentor mother. I love this. I do too, and my mom was a mentor mother to other younger mothers. Say what that means? Yeah, so this is how I have understood it in my life. This is how I kind of view it as this mentor mother is somebody in your life that you really look up to as a parent. You look up to the way that they have lived out their values, you really look up to the way that they engage with and have relationships with their children, and it’s somebody that you can go to who’s just a little further along

 

Heather  29:54

Maybe 10 years, like they’ve been there, yeah.

 

Kristina  29:58

Recently enough, right? You. And to be able to go to them and say, Can I come to you as a mentor? Will you help me think these things through? 

 

Heather  30:07

Yeah. Can I tap into your expertise, and your lived experience, right?

 

Kristina  30:11

Because you had said earlier, you know, sometimes something happens and it’s a really big deal, but, like, a few years down the road, you think that was not a big deal, and that mentor parent can offer reassurance, they can help you see, like, oh, that’s going to be okay, right? That felt like a big deal. Really big, right? Now that’s not going to feel so big down the line. And again, our village is so important. I think that mentor parent can be part of our village. If there’s somebody that you have or that we find in our lives who we really look up to in that way, and can bounce ideas off of can go and say, Man, oh, man, did I screw it up today. It’s another really valuable piece. 

 

Heather  30:59

It  is, and it brings great comfort. I know with the learning issues that my kids, some of them, Zack especially, getting through high school, was getting through school, just he did not like it, and to be able to say to other parents, oh, that was my boy, too. And guess what? Yeah, he’s on the other side of it. Don’t stress too much over it. Don’t lose too much of your life to that, because we have to remember that in the hard such amazing skills develop. And that’s the thing that I see with my Zack, that he came out so strong because of some of that adversity, yeah, and he’s so skilled in so many ways that serve him so well in life.

 

Kristina  31:46

Heather, I don’t know if anybody else needed to hear that today, but I did. Oh, yeah. Oh, baby, straight. We’re all crying straight to the heart. Oh, seriously, there we go.

 

Heather  32:02

Okay, mentor parents, they’re a treasure. 

 

Kristina

They are a treasure. 

 

Heather

Get yourself one.

 

Kristina  32:09

So I think our mother had one more question. 

 

Heather  32:14

So the next question she had was: When I do what the experts say, and things still hit the fan. What? Then? What then? Yes.

 

Kristina  32:24

Well, in this mom, I really appreciate her. She is a super intentional parent. She loves learning. She seeks out information on how to-

 

Heather  32:37

She’s us, let’s be honest. Yes, she is, and we really appreciate, I mean, she really isn’t in real life, but it’s very much how we went through our parenting journey, right?

 

Kristina  32:46

And she’s looking for those experts, and, boy, they’re everywhere, and what they tell us is discrepant, right? Yeah, it’s like, W”ell, you said to do this, but you said to do this, and now I don’t have no idea what to do.”

 

Heather  32:58

What’s good in one minute is not good in the next, or for your child-

 

Kristina  33:02

Isn’t necessarily good for my child, all those things. So one of the things to remember when you’ve followed what the experts have said and things still hit the fan, is to remember progress over perfection. Always we’re making progress, even if that progress is holy moly, I’m not going to do that again.

 

Heather  33:25

And we tend to in our minds when we make a shift, think it’s because we’ve reconciled it in our mind and we’ve imposed some sort of something for change. We think it’s going to happen immediately, and it does not.

 

Kristina  33:43

Does not. It gets worse.

 

Heather  33:48

Oftentimes, when we make a change, because it rocks the whole system right, all of a sudden there’s a shift, and everybody feels that, so everybody’s trying to realign. And so oftentimes it does get worse before it gets better. But then also, we are not very good at recognizing little growth. We want something to be eliminated, right? Because we made a change, and that’s not how it works. And we have to remind teachers of this all the time. As we build skills, it’s like, oh, but this growth occurred, and this growth occurred, and this that’s huge growth.

 

Kristina  34:28

Yep. And again, going back to are we making progress? We are making progress

 

Heather  34:33

Recognizing that every step of the way, and if stuff hits the fan, what do we always say?

 

Kristina  34:37

Get back to the basics. Wipe yourself off, get on up and try it again, yeah, and go check out the basics. How’s your attachment? How are they sleeping? What are they eating? How much time outside? How much time and technology? Are they hydrated? Because sometimes things hit the fan, many times, because one of our basics is kind of out of whack. So get back to your basics. Give yourself permission to really know it’s not always going to go well, and I am wary of people that call themselves experts,

 

Heather  35:13

Yeah, because we can’t adequately prepare for everything, there just isn’t an answer for everything, no.

 

Kristina  35:19

And you can’t be all knowing of every situation and every circumstance and every individual.

 

Heather  35:24

Can I tell a little story about Ava and her horse that happened over the summer? I’d love you to do that, hopefully this will illustrate how we can’t be prepared for every situation. Ava competes. It was a terribly windy day. It was an outside competition. She’s in the arena. I think it was the second to the last event she had done really, really well. She was really feeling good about where her standing was. Like I said, it was a terribly windy day. I don’t know if you know anything about horses, they don’t love wind. It just they feel it on their bodies. They hear it. It just puts them, spooks them a little bit it does. And when horses are in numbers, they respond to everything around them, much like children. I’m amazed at the similarities between the two. So she’s out there, she’s in a pack of horses. They’re all competing in this arena, and a huge wind gust comes, and she is towards the back, maybe second or third, but in a group of about 12 or 15 horses, two hats, cowboy hats fly off the riders and competitors ahead of her. One hits her horse straight on the nose, on the nose, yeah, bounces off. Another one hits his leg. At this moment, they’re all in the pack, and I see her, he spooks. I see her feet out of stirrups, and I think, oh, and my husband and I are watching this, and I say, her feet are out of stirrups. She’s gonna go, she’s gonna go. She’s not gonna stay in that saddle. Yep, she stayed in the saddle. She recovered. But the whole crowd was just like, yeah, because it was and so then again, horses react to that, because the energy has just gone money, and the riders ahead of her have lost their hats. They’re looking, where’s my hat? Horses are trying to maneuver around the stuff. She gets them back under control. She comes out. I can see the tears. I can see nothing she could have done. It was nature. It was the wind, right? And I say to her, remarkable number one, you stayed in that saddle. Number two, you got that horse under control, and she’s losing it. Well, I don’t know if you know anything about horses, but when the rider is dysregulated, you also have a dysregulated horse, yeah, because a horse can feel a fly on its tiny and when you’re on that horse, and you’re, you know, over 100 pounds, and you’re in a saddle, that’s a lot of weight on a horse, and when your body tenses, they feel they feel it huge, because They can feel something as tiny as a fly. So I say to her, I hear you. That was really hard. You did remarkable. I want you to breathe. And people are approaching her saying, that was amazing, blah, blah, blah, and she can’t even hear, right? She can’t even hear in this moment because she’s fighting back the tears. And eventually, as we got over to the trailer, it came out and it was loud and it was, you know, she’s very emotional. And so I said to her, “I want you to get off your horse.” And she said, “No, I needed to.” And I said, “These are the choices: get off the horse, and I will get on him, or you take him and walk him out. He can’t have you on him like this.” And she did. I was like, do your breathing? Calm down? Yeah. And so she did, and I took him and just put his head, because he’s completely dysregulated, and she’s breathing. I’m like, “Just breathe.” I take his head against my chest, and you don’t know how heavy a horse’s head is until it’s on your chest. And what he does is he goes, and I look at her, because to anybody in horse world, that’s a release, yeah? It’s like his version of a deep breath, yeah? And I look at her, and she was like, “Dang it, my mom was right.” And I don’t know anything about horses, but I knew that. Because, again, it’s almost the same as humans. We all need to just go sometimes and release it right? And to pause and to realize we in those moments when our kids can’t she couldn’t have done anything differently. She didn’t do anything wrong, but she was in the midst of a bad situation. And in those moments, are we going to be like “you better not get disqualified” because she went too. Handed in her reigns, so she got D cubed. Yep, it was terrible. Yeah. So she got totally. D cubed. She knew it was coming, but she had to do what she had to do. And so as a parent, I just had to say to her, your horse is your priority. Get back to your central nervous system regulated. We’re gonna let that fall away. Yep, think that’s a good lesson in life. 

 

Kristina  40:14

Yeah, it is. So when things hit the fan, guiding your child through that, remaining the captain of the ship, and honestly, sometimes you just gotta laugh. And I’m not talking about the situation with Ava and Atlas, you’ve handled that beautifully, obviously. But sometimes when stuff goes kerpluie and it hits the fan, sometimes you just have to laugh.

 

Heather  40:39

Yeah, laughter is a huge stress reliever. 

 

Kristina  40:44

Yes, this mom asks one more question, yes, and boy, when I read this question, I really hear her vulnerability. It’s a big question, and it says: What will save our family and keep us connected knowing that we won’t always get the techniques right?

 

Heather  41:03

Yeah, children are so wonderful because they love their parents implicitly, like it’s just they love them and they’re so gracious. And when we screw it up, like you said about grace, it’s okay, mommy, it’s okay. Yeah, they’re so willing to move on and give grace. And it goes back to they see all of what we do. They see us build those foundations. They’ve been spectators to all of that. Yeah, so you rely on your foundation, sturdy as that foundation, right?

 

Kristina  41:44

Getting back to the foundations, yeah, like reaffirming those things and and I think the other thing we do, and that kind of saves our families, even though there’s going to be trouble and difficulty and we’re going to screw things up, is being part of that village, right? That it’s not just our family that messed this up. It’s like we’re in a community, a village of many other families, and we all screw it up sometimes, and kids make mistakes, and we all can just love each other. So holding firm to your foundations and being in community with that village normalizes so much of it.

 

Heather  42:22

And if you’ve grown up in a home where there were wildly high expectations, it becomes a commitment to break that cycle, to see and recognize the dysfunction in it, yes, and say, I want to do it differently. And even if it’s us and it’s like, this is not healthy. I don’t want to do this to my children. It’s being able to recognize it and say, ”I won’t do this.”

 

Kristina  42:49

And understand that that’s not comfortable, right? Recognizing that and then saying, “I’m going to do it differently.” Because the fiber of your being wants to do it the way you’ve always done it, and it wants to be perfect.

 

Heather  43:03

And sometimes we just have to zoom out of our own life. 

 

Kristina

Oh, Ain’t that the truth. 

 

Heather

Zoom out of our own life and think, Okay, if I had a friend that was feeling this way and saying, How do I know? How do I know that my kids are going to remain connected? What would you tell them? Yeah, sometimes we need to be our own best friend, and we need to be able to zoom out and be like, I have done good things, and they will hold true. Our kids are going to be who they’re going to be. We cannot control them, right? We cannot control another human being. All that we can do is trust that we gave at our best. We’ve taught them well. 

 

Kristina  43:44

Our children know they are loved and unconditionally

 

Heather  43:48

Yes and that will carry them.

 

Kristina  43:51

I’m so grateful that this mom, who we really admire, reached out with these questions, and that she was willing to have us share our responses to the questions that she had. What an honor. Yeah, and I mean, it’s helped me, right? And if it helps somebody else, that’s a beautiful thing, too.

 

Heather  44:13

One of the really beautiful things about having that village is considering how our friends see our children, it can be such a good reminder. One thing that our friends did for us was take opportunities to share with us what they appreciated about our kids. Oh, boy and man, would the world be such a wonderful place if everybody did that for each other, to just call out, hey, you’ve got a great kid. I noticed the other day when I had 12 inches of snow in my driveway, they came and they shoveled my walk, or they did this, or they’re always so friendly we pass in the drive or on the road and they’re waving like crazy, just those little things. Uh, to say, I got to interact with your child, yeah. And it was so cool, what a great kid. Because if we did that more for each other,

 

Kristina  45:12

Oh, yeah, the world would be a different place. And that is one of the ways we can zoom back out, and get a different perspective on our child, on our own child, because we’re in it.

 

Heather  45:23

We’re in the grind. Yep. And when you get those nuggets from your friends, it is like, write that down, put that on the calendar, put it in the gratitude journal, because I’m gonna go back and be reminded that so and so sad. Oh, what a great kid. 

 

Kristina  45:44

Yeah, the other thing to put in that journal or on your calendar is, even if it’s, you know, little growth, small steps, write it down, baby, because it matters, and we celebrate those things. And when it can feel like we’re stuck in the same place. We’ve been in the same place forever. 

 

Heather  46:03

You can look back and remind yourself that often time before huge leaps, we regress a bit. Remind yourself of that growth is coming, the big leap is coming. Write that right in there, so that that too is a reminder that’s just kind of always playing in your head.

 

Kristina  46:21

I think one of the things that is helpful for us to remember is that we don’t need to be an expert in parenting, no, to be a remarkable parent, that we don’t have to always do it right, to have amazing children and a great relationship with them. Really, when it comes down to it, we need to be and we get to be with them, with them, yes, in the mess, in the struggle, in the weeds, we get to be with them. Get to be their lighthouse. Yes, and you’re in it together, so reminding yourself that I don’t have to get it all right all the time presents. Just be present and connected with my kid. Yes, winning. 

 

Kristina 

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey, until next time…

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina  

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell,

 

Heather  

The ODC Network is a nonprofit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  

Since 2000 the ODC network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather 

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 23: Questions for Connection

 

“…We want to keep this communication going and growing with our kids through their lifetime. And, too often, we pepper them with all these questions, and that just feels like pressure…It feels like anxiety. As adults, we talk to reduce our anxiety. But I think we forget, or maybe don’t even know, that talking about things and peppering with questions and really focusing raises a child’s anxiety. And we ask because we’re interested and because we care, but it doesn’t feel that way, not to the children…”

 

Connecting with Kids: Overcoming Grunts and Non-Answerable Questions

  • Kristina shares her frustration with her 15-year-old daughter, Grace, who often responds with grunts instead of words when asked about her day.
  • Heather relates to Kristina’s experience, noting that kids often grunt because they feel their parents are not genuinely interested in their day.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of asking open-ended questions to foster meaningful connections with their children.
  • They discuss how kids can tune into what parents are really interested in, so it’s crucial to ask questions that show genuine curiosity.



Strategies for Effective Communication with Kids

  • Kristina and Heather talk about the importance of asking specific questions that help children recall their day, rather than generic ones like “How was your day?”
  • Heather mentions that kids can blur fantasy and reality – and why it’s important to ask questions that don’t focus on negative experiences.
  • They discuss how peppering kids with questions can raise their anxiety, making them feel pressured.
  • Kristina and Heather agree that asking questions should be done with the intention of building a connection and reducing anxiety, not increasing it.

 

“And at this young age, children have a really hard time separating what’s real and what’s fantasy, because it all kind of blurs for them. We can live into that right when we ask questions of our little ones. So here are some of our favorite questions for little bits:

 

If your stuffed animals could talk, what would they say?

 

What sounds do you like best and why? 

 

If you were going to spend the whole day outside, which we highly recommend, what outdoor things would you do?..

 

What are the best ways to make a fort? 

 

We can get such good insight from our kids on these things, yeah, do they want to build a fort outside or inside? Is it a pillow fort? Is it a fort outside, in the woods? 

 

What makes you happy? 

 

Describe a great day. What are you doing that makes it special?

 

And really, these are questions that can capture the imagination of our children…” 

 

Engaging Young Children with Imaginative Questions

  • Heather suggests telling stories to young children and having them retell them the next day to understand their perspective.
  • Kristina and Heather share examples of questions that capture children’s imaginations, such as asking about their favorite sounds or what they would do if they could spend the whole day outside.
  • They discuss the importance of asking questions that help children express their happiness and what makes them special.

 

“…And as they get older, we can ask questions that are part of communicating our values and growing our children’s character…I loved asking my kids, ‘How did you help today? Did you help anyone today?’ And…they begin to then, as they get used to that, you no longer have to prompt it. They will come and tell you, ‘I helped my teacher…’ or  ‘I got to help the PE teacher do…’ It’s just a fun thing. And that goes back to the values. Helping is important.”

 

“The age that the kids that we work with, preschoolers, love roles. And so to call them a ‘helper,’ helps them rise up to being a helper – helping clean up the playscape, helping clean the tables up all those things, so I liked to just ask them, ‘How are you a helper today?’

 

Another question that we can ask is: How do you think other people feel when you’re kind to them or when you help them? Again, shining a light on the value of kindness, 

And starting that conversation of connecting our actions to feelings and what they solicit in others is a great thing to start thinking about.”

 

Building Character and Values through Questions

  • Heather talks about asking children how they helped others that day to foster a sense of kindness and awareness of helping others.
  • Kristina shares her practice of setting an intention for the day with her child to focus on kindness and other important values.
  • They discuss the importance of connecting actions to feelings and how children’s actions can affect others.
  • Heather suggests asking children what they would capture if they were a photographer for a day to understand their interests and what catches their eye.

 

“…Some questions for older kids:

 

What is something I might not know about you?

 

And that could be a moment to model and be like, how about I start and give you an example, right? Something you might not know about me is that…And you can bring something up from your childhood…”

 

“What makes you feel brave?”

 

“I like asking…’Where’s one of your happy places,?’ My daughter will always answer ‘Camp Geneva’ in good old Holland, Michigan. She calls it her second home. She loves it there. But then talking about, ‘Why is that one of your happy places? What makes it so special to you?’ and being able to understand it from her perspective, because I have lots of reasons why I love Camp Geneva. But to hear why she loves it is a really lovely thing.”

 

“What do you look forward to when you wake up?”

 

“How do you show people that you care?..How would you design a tree house?..If you lived in a cave in the woods, how would you decorate it? And then you can add on to that and be like ‘If I lived in a cave in the woods, how do you think I would decorate it?’” Because that also is very fun to hear your kids observations of what they think we would like.

 

“If you were going on vacation, what are the three things you have to take with you? And finding out, like, okay, what are the critical things for your child? Is it a book? Is it technology? Is it binoculars? What is it? And then I’d flip that one too and be like, ‘What three things do you think I would take?’ Because what that tells us is what they see us really valuing, and so that’s good insight.”

 

“What makes you feel thankful? What are you really thankful for?”

 

“If you could make three family rules, what would they be?”

 

Exploring Older Children’s Interests and Feelings

  • Kristina and Heather discuss asking older children what makes them feel brave or what happy memories they have.
  • They emphasize the importance of understanding what children look forward to when they wake up and what their happy places are.
  • Heather suggests asking children how they show people they care and what they would design for a treehouse or cave in the woods.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter’s craft for Mother’s Day, which gave her insight into her daughter’s perception of her.

 

“And conversation is connection with our kids, and so it’s just really important. And even when they get to those years where they just kind of want to retreat, and we think they don’t need it, kids say, ‘I still need it. I still want it.’ And we have to seek that out, because they tend to retreat more, right? So that’s when we have to go to them and really seek out those conversations and chat times.”

 

So asking these open ended questions, really can create quite a strong bond with your kids. You have insight into how their mind is working. That deepens your bond, and that’s really key for healthy development, emotional well being, and honestly, it makes parenting more satisfying, because you’re getting to know your children as people…

 

And they know that your priority is them being known, and that you’re interested in them and hearing from them what they think, and not doing the shutting things down, where they start telling you a story, and you start either placing a judgment on it, like, Well, that wasn’t very kind, or that wasn’t really very funny, or things like that. Like, just explore. Stay curious.”

 

The Importance of Open-Ended Questions

  • Heather explains that open-ended questions are crucial for language development and conversation skills.
  • They discuss how reading and narrating daily activities can help children develop these skills.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize that open-ended questions help build children’s confidence and creativity.
  • They discuss the importance of keeping conversations about connection rather than teaching or judging.

 

Fostering Connection through Meaningful Conversations

  • Kristina and Heather talk about the importance of starting conversations early and building a foundation of connection.
  • They discuss how setting aside specific times for conversations, like breakfast or car rides, can help foster a strong bond.
  • Heather shares how her husband would drive their children to school to have one-on-one conversations with them.
  • Kristina and Heather agree that it’s never too late to start new conversations and build connections with children.

 

“Keeping that time to be about conversation and maybe not the moment to, you know, to teach or to judge or to critique, keeping it about connection, because you and I know with the ages that our kids are if we don’t take the time now, right? Because bigger kids, bigger issues, more important things to talk about, perhaps, if we don’t value this little stuff now, our kids don’t get into the habit and the practice, and then when we seek it out later, it’s harder to build that practice if that work hasn’t been done…

 

Because it goes right back to attachment and connection. Yeah, strong parental connection, involvement.

 

And the questions are not about fact finding. No, there’s no agenda. I fell into big time when my daughter started going to school, because there were these big chunks of time that I was not with her, and I had

 

Car rides… Captive audience. I know my husband and I would both say he drove our kids once they got to middle school and above until they started driving themselves, just because it was a time that he could have with each of them, and they’re spaced out enough that he had them one on one, and so he could drive them. And we live pretty close to the school, so we’re talking six minutes, yeah, but what a way to have six minutes with your dad and set your day up so nicely. And it was always conversation, yep. So car rides. Car rides. Bedtime. Bedtime is a great time. Our kids, little ones, they want to delay it as much as possible and for our older ones too, it’s a time when they’re feeling a little more vulnerable.”

 

Ripe Times for Connection-Building Conversations

  • Kristina and Heather talk more about the importance of car rides as a captive audience for meaningful conversations.
  • They talk about using bedtime as a time to have deeper conversations with children, even if it means staying up late.
  • Waiting in line for something can also be an opportunity to ask questions and foster connection.
  • Dinner time is another great opportunity for conversations, especially with chat packs or Table Talk cards.

 

The Role of Questions in Building Emotional Well-Being

  • Kristina and Heather emphasize that asking questions helps children feel known and loved within their family.
  • They discuss how building a strong connection with children from a young age can make it easier to maintain that connection as they grow older.
  • Kristina shares her experience of dealing with her own anxiety and how it affected her interactions with her daughter.
  • Heather talks about the importance of not projecting one’s own anxieties onto children and allowing them to express themselves freely.

 

The Impact of Connection on Parenting Satisfaction

  • Kristina and Heather agree that fostering connection with children makes parenting more satisfying.
  • They discuss how understanding children’s perspectives and interests helps parents feel more connected to them.
  • Heather shares how modeling vulnerability and openness can help build a stronger connection with children.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of staying curious and connected throughout a child’s lifetime.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Benefits of Time In Nature:

https://childmind.org/article/why-kids-need-to-spend-time-in-nature/

 

https://richardlouv.com/blog/every-child-needs-nature-not-just-the-ones-with-parent-who-appreciate-natur

 

Benefits of Unstructured Play:

https://www.apa.org/topics/children/kids-unstructured-play-benefits

Benefits of Hugs:

https://cincinnatifamilymagazine.com/the-healing-science-of-hugging-your-kids/

 

Benefits of Laughter:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/stress-management/in-depth/stress-relief/art-20044456

 

Body Safety:

Pattie Fitzgerald  – Safely Ever After

 

How Today’s Parents Say Their Approach to Parenting Does – or Doesn’t – Match Their Own Upbringing

 

Mindfulness of Schedules/Benefits of Down Time

 

Impact of Overscheduling on Skill Development

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

In prior episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In prior episodes, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

 

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 23: Questions for Connection

 

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re talking about something really special: ways to connect with our children through meaningful questions. Kristina and I are going to share how simple, open ended questions can open up the communication with our kids and why those moments are so valuable.

 

Kristina  00:15

By asking questions that encourage children to think and express themselves, we not only foster better communication, but we also help reduce anxiety. Instead of questions that can be answered with just yes or no, we’re talking about questions that invite creativity and exploration, things like asking them about their favorite sound, what outdoor activities they enjoy, or even something imaginative, like what they would do if they could fly.

 

Heather  00:46

These types of questions are important because they give kids the chance to share what’s going on in their minds, and it helps us understand their perspectives. For example, asking what makes them happy or what they find amazing in nature can really tap into how they’re seeing the world around them as

 

Kristina  01:03

kids get older, it’s also a great opportunity to dig a little deeper into their feelings, values and dreams. Questions about personal values can not only give us insight into their emotional world, but also help them learn to express their thoughts clearly,

 

Heather  01:19

These conversations are about so much more than just talking. They build emotional bonds, improve language skills and promote healthy development. And the best part is these meaningful moments don’t have to happen during scheduled talking time, car rides, bedtime and dinner can all be great opportunities to engage with your child in a relaxed, natural way.

 

Kristina  01:44

We hope today’s episode will give you some fresh ideas for connecting with kids in your life, no matter their age. It’s all about building trust, listening and creating a space where they feel comfortable sharing what’s on their minds.

 

Heather  01:58

We’re so glad you’re here for this conversation. Let’s get started. 

 

Heather  

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma

 

Heather

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re Support Service Directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina

 

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather

Are you ready? 

 

Kristina and Heather

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan, where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

 

Heather  

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  03:26

Heather, I don’t know if you have the same experience with your kids as I do with Grace right now. I mean, she’s 15, but this has been going on for a while. I’ll come home from work, I’ll pick her up at school, and I’ll ask her, like, “How was the day? What did you at school today? Did you hang out with your friends?”

 

Heather  03:44

I know these answers. It’s “nothing.”

 

Kristina  03:49

Well. Did you know what? She grunts at this point. It’s just a little like, you know? And I’ve started saying to her, and actually her father, too, like words. I’d like words…

 

Heather

Can I buy a vowel?

 

Kristina

Not just a vowel, anything. Not just a grunt. So I want to talk about: how can we ask questions that help us connect with kids?

 

Heather  04:12

Yeah, there’s some strategy here. And we had to learn it. We still get the grunts. But otherwise, it was like, I’m sending you off to school to do nothing, learn nothing. We like lunch and recess, but pretty much that was a summary of every single day. 

 

Kristina  04:29

What did you do? Nobody remembers. Their recall is terrible, right? And even though we know these strategies, boy, if I don’t keep like a list of the questions that I want to ask, I revert back to, “How was your day? How you doing?” Kind of, you know, those non answerable questions, because they’re a yes or no answer.

 

Heather  04:52

Absolutely. And the other thing, when our kids were little, they clued into what we were really invested in when we would ask these questions. And we see this in our preschool world, right? We see this a lot, that kids at this age are growing. They’re problem solving. And sometimes things happen. But if we start to focus on, “Did you get pushed today? Did anybody hit you?” our kids tune into that, and so we’re gonna talk about that too and really explore that, because that’s a thing that begins to happen, and then we put our kids in a position of needing to kind of fill that blank in for us, and they blur fantasy and reality. So it can get real dicey. 

 

Kristina  05:39

It can. Well, and I just think, right, we want to keep this communication going and growing with our kids through their lifetime. And too often, we pepper them with all these questions, and that just feels like pressure.

 

Heather  05:54

It does. It feels like anxiety. Us as adults, we talk to reduce our anxiety, but I think we forget, or maybe don’t even know that talking about things and peppering with questions and really focusing raises a child’s anxiety.

 

Kristina  06:12

And we ask because we’re interested and because we care. But it doesn’t feel that way, no to the children, right?

 

Heather  06:20

And if we think about, if we get home from a day at work and someone is just, “How was your day? What did you do? Was it productive”? Like you just want to have a minute right and settle in.

 

Kristina  06:32

So true. So let’s talk about that today. Like, how can we ask questions to build that connection that we have with kids, to grow that open communication so that we can continue to be closely connected to our children through their lifetime.

 

Heather

I love it. Let’s do it 

 

Kristina

Awesome.

 

Heather  06:51

Let’s talk about little ones. They’re so darling. They have such big imaginations. They’re not a trustworthy report.

 

Heather  07:02

I…This is a fun thing to do with your kids. Tell them a story, maybe at bedtime. Tell them- My kids always loved hearing like, “Tell me a story from when you were young, mom. Tell me a story.” And they put you on the spot. And I was like, I’ve got to have stories, but you just can’t always come up with one. But we would try to tell these stories, and just for funsies, the next day, have them retell what you told them. We know what we said, right? But you hear their retell from that four year old or five year old brain. And I think where were they when we were having that conversation, because what they heard is not what I said. And that is so important to remember.

 

Kristina  07:52

Yeah, absolutely. And at this young age, you had said this earlier, children have a really hard time separating what’s real and what’s fantasy because it all kind of blurs for them. We can live into that right when we ask questions of our little ones. So here are some of our favorite questions for little bits: If your stuffed animals could talk, what would they say?

 

Heather  08:18

What sounds do you like best and why? 

 

Kristina  08:24

If you were going to spend the whole day outside, which we highly recommend, what outdoor things would you do?

 

Heather  08:33

I love it. Yeah, great one. This is a really fun one that I love, because my kids love to make forts. What are the best ways to make a fort? We can get such good insight from our kids on these things, yeah, do they want to build a fort outside or inside? Is it a pillow fort? Is it a fort outside, in

 

Kristina  08:50

the woods? Yeah. And really, these are questions that can capture the imagination of our children, right? Another great question is just asking our little ones, what makes you happy describe

 

Heather  09:04

a great day? Yeah, what are you doing that makes it special? I love those questions because it gives us insight as to where they are, right there, in that moment, at that age. Yes, and so often our adult brain thinks that the things that they love are bigger than what they are, and oftentimes it’s just so good to ask them, what’s so special to you? 

 

Kristina  09:26

Just little things. And to take the light in those things, we had our preschool naturalist visiting a classroom. We have the benefit of having naturalists who come into our preschool classrooms and into the beyond with them and bring animal ambassadors. So on this particular day, the skunk was visiting a classroom, and it was so sweet. The naturalist brought in a skunk pelt, and the kids could touch that. And it was so sweet this little four year old when he came up to touch the pelt, he said, “Oh, the skunk’s sweater.” Oh so sweet.

 

Heather  10:04

It is so sweet. And what I love is we know we’re place based, right? So we only talk about animals native to West Michigan. And every single time when they get the clues of what animal, there’s always a unicorn.

 

Kristina  10:23

Yes, yes. That was one of the things. Always a guest well. And I remember having a darling conversation with a little almost four year old. She wasn’t feeling well. And we were reading a book together. And she said to me, “Miss Kristina, I’ve seen a unicorn.” And I said, “What? I have never seen a unicorn. Oh, that’s amazing.” And she was, you know, kind of proud and herself that she had seen this thing, and I had never seen it. And then she said, “Miss Kristina.” I said, “Yeah.” She said, “I think it was actually a horse with a horn, but it’s way more fun to believe it was a unicorn.” 

 

Heather  11:07

That child had a parent that was like, “Did you really see that? Or is that a story?”

 

Kristina  11:14

But at that age, let the stories, and

 

Heather  11:17

they’re not really sure, right? Because it’s in their mind’s eye, and they believe it, because they are still blurring fantasy and reality. It’s so darling. As our kids get a little bigger, we can ask some different questions.

 

Kristina  11:30

So for the little bits, we’re talking a lot about fantasy and their vivid imaginations. And as they get older, we can ask questions that are part of communicating our values and growing our children’s character. 

 

Heather  11:46

I really love that so often we can focus on like we had said, you know, what did you do at school today? I loved asking my kids, “How did you help today? Did you help anyone today? And it’s cool that they begin to then, as they get used to that you no longer have to prompt it, they will come and tell you, you know, “I helped my teacher… or  “I got to help the PE teacher do…” It’s just a fun thing. And that goes back to the values, like, helping is important. 

 

Kristina  12:19

Yeah, I used to really love – and I did not do a good job of this as a parent, so let me just put that out there. But I did this for a little while, and I should have continued it. So I’m now, I’m remembering that I need to do it again. It was to start the day with an intention. So saying, “So today I’m going to really try to be especially kind to three different people and have Grace set an intention too. And then at the end of the day being able to come back together and say, “So, how did you do with your intention?” And so you can even set the focus right on the day of something that is something you value, or a character trait that you are trying to model and grow on your child with an intention.

 

Heather  13:08

And that’s a super fun thing. If you drive your kids to school and you have some time in the car that you can both do that, and then when you gather back up, report it out, yeah, it’s just another really cool “same, same” connection type of thing.

 

Kristina  13:22

Absolutely. So you liked to ask the question, “Who did you help today? Or how were you a helper?”

 

Heather  13:27

The age that the kids that we work with, preschoolers, love roles. And so to call them a
“helper,” helps them rise up to being a helper – helping clean up the playscape, helping clean the tables up all those things, so I liked to just ask them, “How are you a helper today?”

 

Kristina  13:46

Another question that we can ask is: how do you think other people feel when you’re kind to them or when you help them?

 

Heather  13:53

Again, shining a light on the value of kindness.

 

Kristina  13:58

Yeah, and starting that conversation of connecting our actions to feelings and what they solicit in others is a great thing to start thinking about. And on the flip side asking, how do you think kids who are unkind to others feel about themselves? Absolutely, yeah. How do you think kids who’ve been treated unkindly feel it’s all of that connecting what we do and what we say has an effect on ourselves and others. 

 

Heather  14:27

And then going back a little more personally, to what our kids might just enjoy. If you were a photographer for a day, what would you take pictures of? Like, what interests them just out in the world? What catches their eye? Because there are so many things,

 

Kristina  14:40

And getting back into really igniting that imagination again. I love this question, which is, if you could ask a wild animal any question, what would you ask? 

 

Heather  14:50

I can’t even imagine what they might say. So fun. We write our kid quotes are really hilarious ones on the board in the office. They just make us laugh so hard. Are so, so fun. The sweetness that they come up with.

 

Kristina  15:04

Or even asking, like, “What was the most amazing thing in nature that you’ve seen lately?” Or, what do you think the most amazing thing in nature is?” And that shifts over time, right? I remember, oh, it was only a few years ago when we were driving to Texas and it was dusk, and you know, the sun was setting, and I pointed out to my daughter that she could see the colors of the rainbow right as the sun was setting in the sky. And she had not noticed that before, and it was like a mind blown moment. And now, whenever it gets to be dusk and the sun is setting and you can see those colors in the sky. It’s like another moment of wonder. She wouldn’t have noticed that. She didn’t notice it until I pointed it out. But asking little ones, and as they get a little older, what are the things that really bring you awe?

 

Heather  15:57

Yeah, it’s really fun to know those things about them, and it’s really important for us to say you don’t, again, want to pepper them with questions, but one question can spur you into an entire conversation of awareness, and then that’s a great place to be, and we don’t have to ask anymore, right? We can just live in that. 

 

Kristina  16:18

Yeah,and that’s a great point, Heather, because we’re not talking about like, Here are eight questions to ask your child, you know, in succession every day, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because, again, we want to foster an ongoing conversation, and if you ask the question of your child, be ready to answer it yourself exactly.

 

Heather  16:35

Because what do you think? Right? Is something that I used with my kids all the time, like they would come to me with a question, and I would say, “Huh, that’s a really interesting thought. What do you think?” But then they learn that, and they spin it back, so when we ask them a question, they’re going to answer and then be like, “What do you think, Mommy?” Oh, I know. Turnabout is fair play. 

 

Kristina  17:00

I know painful sometimes, but fair

 

Heather  17:04

Let’s talk about some questions for older kids. What is something I might not know about you?

 

Kristina  17:11

Yeah, don’t wait too long to ask this, because when they’re like, 17, it’s not the right time to start that question.

 

Heather  17:17

You want to start that early earlier. 

 

Kristina  17:21

Yeah, and if your kids aren’t super excited about answering these questions, it’s okay. Don’t rush them. Don’t make them. Let children take their time. 

 

Heather  17:30

And that could be a moment to model and be like, how about I start and give you an example, right? Something you might not know about me is that…And you can bring something up from your childhood, or I always like to talk about…It’s so funny what our kids know, right? I remember saying to each one of my kids, So Ama, your grandma, is my mom. And it was like, it blew their mind. They just knew her as Ama, but it was like they never…They knew in theory, but it never landed. And then, of course, I’m come from a divorced family, so they all had the awareness of, wait a minute, if Grandpa Chuck is your dad. Ama and Grandpa Chuck were married, they all had this awareness. And I’m like, “Shocking, isn’t it?”

 

Kristina  18:30

There was a time, oh man, yeah. So being willing to model having those conversations and being vulnerable and opening up helps you build that connection with your child.

 

Heather  18:44

And I think it’s just so staggering what they know but they don’t know. It’s like, yeah, she’s my mom. That’s what makes her grandma, yeah. Like, never put it together. Sorry. This is one that I love: “What makes you feel brave?”

 

Kristina  19:02

Oh, I love that question. Yeah, yep. I like asking, “What’s a memory that makes you happy?” Or “Where’s one of your happy places, right?” My daughter will always answer “Camp Geneva” in good old Holland, Michigan. She calls it her second home. She loves it there. But then talking about, ‘Why is that one of your happy places? What makes it so special to you?” And being able to understand it from her perspective, because I have lots of reasons why I love Camp Geneva, but to hear why she loves it is a really lovely thing.

 

Heather  19:41

This is a good one. Again. Some of these just give us really good insight into where our kids are at in that moment. What do you look forward to when you wake up?

 

Kristina  19:52

You know: coffee.

 

Heather  19:53

I was gonna say my boys might be like “food.” Yeah, depending on their age. But when they’re littler, they give like, “snuggles,” yeah, you know, you just don’t know what they might say, but it gives you good insight on what they look forward to in that sweet time, when they first open those eyes, I just love knowing what they are hoping for.

 

Kristina  20:16

Oh, and I still like to watch my daughter sleep and think what’s going on in that brain of hers?

 

Heather  20:22

Yeah, as they grow and you get in these times of hard, I would say it’s a good thing to go watch them sleep when there’s because there’s so much peace.

 

Kristina  20:33

Oh yeah. And there’s so much tenderness that wells up inside of you. 

 

Heather  20:37

Uh huh. Yeah, absolutely. Hey. Hey, listeners, Kristina and I are so grateful to be a part of your village. If these conversations and episodes are impactful to you, we deeply appreciate your support to continue doing the work we love so much for such an amazing nonprofit organization, please visit www.GearUp-podcast.com to make a tax deductible contribution. Thank you.

 

Kristina  21:08

So I also like the question, how do you show people that you care? Back to values. Yeah, back to values.

 

Heather  21:15

And this is just a really playful one. I think it’s super fun. How would you design a tree house. And I like this one too. It kind of plays off it. If you lived in a cave in the woods, how would you decorate it? And then you can add on to that and be like if I lived in a cave in the woods, how do you think I would decorate it? Because that also is very fun to hear your kids observations of what they think we would like.

 

Kristina  21:43

Yeah,or questions, like: If you were going on vacation, what are the three things you have to take with you, and finding out, like, okay, what are the critical things for your child? Is it a book? Is it technology? Is it binoculars? What is it?

 

Heather  22:00

And then I’d flip that one too and be like, What three things do you think I would take? Because what that tells us is what they see us really valuing, yeah, and so that’s good insight.

 

Kristina  22:14

I remember Grace making this little craft in preschool. And it came home, and it was for Mother’s Day, and it was something about, like, what does your mom love to do? And it was, oh yes, coffee, talk, watch movies. And I’m like, I don’t watch movies. I do talk a lot, and I do like coffee. But it was like, watch movies. I don’t even know where that came from. She probably heard somebody else say…

 

Heather  22:39

Those are so fun and great. I think mine came home that I was like 87 feet tall, and watched house decorating shows. Good to know.

 

Kristina  22:50

Insight into those little minds.

 

Heather  22:53

Really tall old person. Good bone structure. 

 

Kristina  22:56

That’s right, good bones. This is a question again, if you have a practice of gratitude within your home, this is something you’re really doing very frequently, but if not just asking the question, “What makes you feel thankful? What are you really thankful for?” And reflecting on that? I love the new year. We’re in January right now, and when we’re recording this, and at the new year, I decided I was, again, going to take every single day and talk about what something I’m grateful for, and really spend some time reflecting on that. And encouraging my family to do that as well. It’s just a really good practice.

 

Heather  23:34

A really healthy habit. It is. Mentally, emotionally,

 

Kristina  23:38

Yep. This is one more question that I have that I want to share. And it’s the question of, “If you could make three family rules, what would they be?”

 

Heather  23:51

Oh, my goodness, huh, no bedtime snacks. All day, you get some insight again into what’s important to them.

 

Kristina  24:02

Interesting, interesting answers. 

 

Heather  24:04

Let’s talk about what makes a good question. Yeah, like, if we want to come up with our own, that’s great. You don’t have to use any of these. These were some of our favorites that we really liked. But I learned very early on that if “yes” and “no” are options, kids will just take that, and then it’s like, stop. And then we have to ask another question, which maybe isn’t going to be received so well, because then it just starts to add up, starts to feel like you’re peppering them. Yes, open ended questions are the way to go, so we can avoid just “yes” and “no,” which shuts the conversation down. And so much of this is so good just for their language development. Yeah, conversation skills are beginning to wane somewhat as children are growing up, we see a lot a lot more kids coming in with speech deficits, yes, and part of that is because there are so many other things we’re engaging less in just conversation, and we know the value in that, in brain development and all of it. Reading was always a really important thing for us to do with our kids and just kind of narrating our day from the time mine were Itty bitties and just born, I was just always talking to them, and I think that’s just a really good thing. Social skills are so important. 

 

Kristina  25:27

Oh my word, yes. And just communication skills, yep. So being able to have a conversation, understanding the volley back and forth, yes. 

 

Heather  25:37

Ask a question. Return, yes, urban return, really important concepts that will really set our kids up so well for the next 80 years.

 

Kristina  25:46

Yeah, and asking these open ended questions, it really helps our kids build their confidence, absolutely, yeah, and continue to foster their creativity, right? Yeah, yeah, which is important, and we lose that the older we get.

 

Heather  26:01

And conversation is connection with our kids, and so it’s just really important. And even when they get to those years where they just kind of want to retreat, and we think they don’t need it, kids say, I still need it. Yeah, I still want it. And we have to seek that out, because they tend to retreat more, right? So that’s when we have to go to them and really seek out those conversations and chat times. 

 

Kristina  26:27

So asking these questions, these open ended questions, really can create quite a strong bond with your kids. You have insight into how their mind is working. That deepens your bond, and that’s really key for healthy development, emotional well being, and honestly, it makes parenting more satisfying, because you’re getting to know your children as people. And I know that sounds weird…

 

Heather  26:51

And they know that your priority is them being known.

 

Kristina  26:57

And that you’re interested in them and hearing from them what they think, and not doing the shutting things down, where they start telling you a story, and you start either placing a judgment on it, like, “Well, that wasn’t very kind,” or “that wasn’t really very funny,” or things like that. Like, just explore. Stay curious. Yeah, that’s so important. 

 

Heather  27:19

Stayin curious, keeping that time to be about conversation and maybe not the moment to, you know, to teach or to judge or to critique, keeping it about connection, because you and I know with the ages that our kids are if we don’t take the time now, right? Because bigger kids, bigger issues, more important things to talk about, perhaps, if we don’t value this little stuff now, our kids don’t get into the habit and the practice, and then when we seek it out later, it’s harder to build that practice if that work hasn’t been done. So Kristina, let’s talk about why these conversations were so important for us to have with our kids. Yeah?

 

Kristina  28:04

And why asking these questions really helps foster your connection,

 

Heather  28:08

Because it goes right back to attachment and connection. Yeah, strong parental connection, involvement.

 

Kristina  28:15

And the questions are not about fact finding. No, there’s no agenda. I fell into big time when my daughter started going to school, because there were these big chunks of time that I was not with her, and I had no idea what was happening in her day, the interactions she was having, how she was getting along with others, any of that, and because of my own anxiety. I just really wanted to know that she was okay and things were going well, and people were being kind and things like that. But that’s mine to deal with, right, right? My anxiety is mine to deal with, not to require from my child, right?

 

Heather  28:56

And to not to give me the deets- 

 

Heather

Projected on her because we know if that happens, her anxiety is going to go up. 

 

Kristina  29:04

Yeah, and the reason asking these questions and building your connection and your bond when they’re young is because if you don’t start, then it’s harder to start when they’re older. It

 

Heather  29:17

It absolutely is. And it’s just not as natural if we haven’t laid that foundation down and really honored the little things and the meaningful conversations sometimes about seemingly mindless stuff, right? Because that’s where they’re at. It’s this sometimes fantasy, sometimes reality, but to them, it’s always a really big deal. And so if we honor that now, when they’re little, that’s known to them. It’s natural to them. And we set aside time for that. I know you’ve talked about how your dad used to always take one of you kids out for breakfast, and my husband did this with our kids as well. And. That was just conversation time. It was connection time. But it was set aside. And you can’t start doing that when they’re 15.

 

Kristina  30:09

No. It’s awkward. 

 

Heather  30:12

It is because they feel your agenda. Yeah. It’s like, Oh yeah, well, now they want to talk to me about all this stuff.

 

Kristina  30:18

They’re gonna dig, dig, dig for information. So here’s what I want to make sure that everyone hears. It’s never too late to start something new. No, however, it’s just harder. Perhaps, yes, and if this is not something that we’ve engaged in from the time our children are younger, start by just getting interested in what is important to them.

 

Heather  30:41

Yeah, and you have to always start at the foundation. Sometimes we want to take the elevator to the third floor. Yeah, and it just doesn’t work like that, because they smell us comin’.

 

Kristina  30:50

They’re like, yeah, hidden agenda,

 

Heather  30:57

Wearing it on their forehead. It’s both. It looks like aneurysm.

 

Kristina  31:05

It’s when I get my eye twitch. Oh, something’s coming.

 

Heather  31:10

It’s when I take a deep breath, and the whole family turns to me and I say, “I’m just breathing.” And they all shake their heads, no, you’re not.

 

Kristina  31:19

Something’s coming. So we’ve talked about these different questions that we can ask to foster connection with our kids. And it’s, I think, important to point out that there are some kind of really, really ripe times to ask these kinds of questions that will give us the best chance, really, of having that connection with our children. So walk us through some I know that you

 

Heather  31:46

Car rides, yeah, right, just because you have a captive audience, they’re right there with you, and so tempting sometimes, to have the music on. Or, by golly, if those electronic devices are just in new vehicles all the time now, and they’re ever present. I’m so grateful that that wasn’t the way when my kids were little, because I would have just taken them out as much as you can. But some of them are built in now, but we can leave them off, and we can say “No. Instead, I want to talk. Let’s talk to one another.” Captive audience. I know my husband and I would both say he drove our kids once they got to middle school and above until they started driving themselves, just because it was a time that he could have with each of them, and they’re spaced out enough that he had them one on one, and so he could drive them. And we live pretty close to the school, so we’re talking six minutes, yeah, but what a way to have six minutes with your dad and set your day up so nicely. And it was always conversation, yep. So car rides. Car rides. Bedtime. Bedtime is a great time. Our kids, little ones, they want to delay it as much as possible.

 

Kristina  33:07

Well and for our older ones too, it’s a time when they’re feeling a little more vulnerable.

 

Heather  33:12

And they hit a turning point where they come alive at night. They get a little nocturnal. They’re getting more independent. They want to be up later. They want to live into all that, and that’s not easy for us. We’re kind of at the end of our day, and we might be very much actively parenting youngers, so we’re kind of over it, but I remember specifically staying up until 1130 and midnight, and I’ve talked about you kind of have to scotch tape your eyelids up and raised eyebrows and “Hi, so glad you’re home. Yeah? What was really great tonight? What made you laugh really hard?”

 

Kristina  33:51

Yep. So bedtime, car rides, just even waiting in line for something, using that as an opportunity to talk and to have this conversation and even asking questions like, “What do you think would happen if…”whatever situation that you’re in and that fosters that creative thinking, it allows for the development of more verbal skills and conversation skills and things like that. So taking advantage of some of those times.

 

Heather  34:21

Dinner time was always another one for us, where we would have conversations and certain temperaments really, like, there’s all these, like, chat packs. And my daughter loved those. She’d be like, “let’s use the chat pack.” And they would have them in their bedrooms at night too. So you can just pull one out if you can’t have. 

 

Kristina  34:40

And these chat packs are, it’s like a deck of cards, right? And each one has a question, yeah, and you can get them for different ages. And yes, they’re lovely, yeah, we had, like, Table Talk.

 

Speaker 1  34:52

And, like I said, some temperaments love that. And others not as much. But yeah. However you do it, yeah, or you, you know, cut these up and put them in a jar and pull them out one at a time. There’s all sorts of things, I’m sure that you can Google about questions to ask your kids,

 

Kristina  35:11

But stay curious and connected absolutely throughout their lifetime. Absolutely.

 

Heather  35:19

Being known is a really important thing for children in their family, and it helps them settle and feel loved.

 

Kristina  35:29

It sure does. Thank you so much for joining us for gear up adventures in parenthood. I’m Christina

 

Heather  35:40

and I’m Heather, and we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  35:45

Until next time 

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina  

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell,

 

Heather  

The ODC Network is a nonprofit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  

Since 2000 the ODC network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather 

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 22: The 14 Things, Part 2 of 2

 

“Less is more when it comes to the complicated things that we include in our lives and in our children’s lives.”

 

The Importance of Simplicity in Children’s Lives

  • Kristina introduces the remaining seven out of the 14 things children need more of in their lives.
  • Kristina emphasizes that all 14 things are free and can be implemented without moving into tomorrow.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of simplicity, noting that simpler times were actually beneficial for children.
  • Kristina shares a personal anecdote about her friend’s family giving only four gifts at Christmas to illustrate the concept of less being more.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the impact of having fewer toys and how it can reduce anxiety and clutter in children’s lives.

 

“Having a simpler environment helps us all feel more calm. So modeling and practicing with children that kind of non attachment with things…so looking at your life and saying, ‘where are the places we could simplify? Simplify schedule. Simplify the things that we welcome into our home. Simplify the expectations that we have for different events. Even that is something that children need more of…they do not need more toys. They need less toys. And in fact, what we can do is to even put some of the toys aside and cycle things in and out so that they don’t have access to all the toys…Because they get  tired of them after a while, and then they’re just sitting…And if you have 50 toys, that’s a lot to take care of, but if I have 10 or 15, that’s more manageable. When we teach our children about putting things away and caring for belongings and respecting things like property, less is more.”



The Benefits of a Simpler Environment

  • Kristina talks about the struggle of giving things away and the fear of scarcity from her upbringing.
  • Kristina shares how she and her husband model giving things away to their daughter, Grace, to help her have a looser grip on material possessions.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the psychological impact of a cluttered environment on adults and children.
  • Kristina recalls a childhood memory of using a secret code to clean up quickly to reduce stress in the house.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that a simpler environment helps children feel more calm and secure.

 

“We’ve talked before about how many times a child does not have your full attention. When they do have your full intention, it is because many times they’re behaving in a way that is not acceptable, that is not appropriate. Because those are the moments that we zero in on them. …And so we can focus on the times when a child is being ‘bad’ or ‘naughty.’ And when we focus our energy in that place, that does become their inner voice…They doubt their ability to make decisions. They doubt that they are a good person. And if they get that sort of feeling about themselves and start telling themselves that, they live into it because they’re told, ‘Oh, I’m the naughty one. I’m expected to be naughty…And when that inner voice is one of ‘I am bad. I am not capable.’ That is the voice of shame and doubt. And they will live into that.”



Belief in Their Goodness

  • Heather introduces the topic of belief in a child’s goodness, emphasizing the importance of making children feel highly regarded.
  • Heather shares a personal story about her son, Luke, making his profession of faith and the impact of being told daily that he is loved.
  • Kristina explains the importance of attachment and how caregivers’ behavior can affect a child’s inner voice.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the impact of a child’s egocentric nature and how they internalize their parents’ behavior.
  • Kristina emphasizes the importance of modeling and practicing non-attachment with things to help children let go of material possessions.

 

“It allows children to settle knowing that they know what to expect, that they know what’s coming, that they know how the day flows. It gives them all that ability to predict and to anticipate. And it allows their nervous system to rest and not have to be on high alert – What’s coming? What’s happening? I think as adults, we feel better with that…In children, we know all of them do better when they’re operating within that framework and that structure.”

 

Daily Rhythms and Rituals

  • Heather discusses the importance of daily rhythms and rituals for children, providing a sense of safety and predictability.
  • Heather explains how repetition and knowing what to expect helps children settle and reduces their nervous system’s hyper-alertness.
  • Kristina adds that young children often want the same stories read over and over because it provides a sense of security.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that the values and priorities parents model are more impactful than their words.
  • Kristina emphasizes the importance of having a calm environment and how it increases emotional and mental well-being for both children and adults.

 

“And we’ve all been there in our homes where it’s like ‘something’s happening here. Storms are brewing. If I put my foot down here, is that mine gonna go off?’ That is not a great way for anyone’s central nervous system to live. It’s just a state of dysregulation. Our jaw might be clenched, our shoulders might be higher. We hold our body with all this tension. And it does not provide an environment for learning and growth…I like to think of it like an engine. Is your engine idling really high? And we can get used to operating in that zone. And that allowing space in our homes, especially in our relationships with our children, to have that sometimes but then also to have them really experience the lived experience of calm? What comfort that can bring.”

 

Creating a Calm Environment

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of a calm environment for children, providing a sense of safety and predictability.
  • Heather shares a personal story about her daughter, Ava, reminding her to go slow during a snowstorm.
  • Kristina recalls a moment of stress when she failed to be compassionate towards a student, highlighting the importance of empathy.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that children need to feel safe with their feelings and that minimizing their emotions can lead to internalization.
  • Kristina emphasizes the importance of listening to children and understanding their experiences from their perspective.

 

“Children need more compassion in their lives…having compassion and empathy for our children allows them to feel safe with their feelings, with their wonders, their hurts, and their ideas, and just who they are in general. If we minimize that, they internalize it. Allowing our children to tell us their realities, instead of telling them how they feel, that they’re being ridiculous…it builds their confidence and it also secures their inner voice. 

 

The thing that I have learned as my children have grown is they really just want us to listen. Yeah, so often it’s just about listening…and having that developmentally appropriate understanding of what is appropriate for your child. At this age, they aren’t able to manage all of the things that we can as an adult. They don’t experience them the same ways…and then having compassion for that, even if it does seem ridiculous to you.”

 

Compassion and Empathy

  • Kristina introduces the topic of compassion, explaining that having compassion and empathy for children allows them to feel safe sharing their feelings.
  • Heather shares a personal story about her son, Luke, and the importance of listening to children.
  • Kristina discusses the developmentally appropriate understanding of children’s experiences and the importance of believing them.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that empathy involves believing someone when they tell you their experience and having compassion for it.
  • Kristina shares a personal story about a moment of failure in empathy and the importance of learning from such experiences.

 

“…it’s important for us to give specific affirmations and specific expressions of gratitude for who our children are. What it is about them, or what characteristic we saw – your kindness, your generosity, your patience – whatever it is that we have seen in them. To call that out specifically. I do think we have this generation, a couple generations now, of individuals who do not have a realistic understanding of their gifts and their talents…someone has told them some lies along the way. So helping our children build that strong sense of self, strong inner voice and realistic understanding of what their strengths are, rooted in honesty and truth and love.”

 

Expressing Gratitude For Who They Are, Not Just What They Do

  • Heather introduces the topic of expressed gratitude, emphasizing the importance of children feeling known and valued by their parents.
  • Kristina explains the importance of giving specific affirmations and expressions of gratitude for who children are.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the impact of over-the-top praise and the importance of honesty and truth in building a child’s self-esteem.
  • Kristina emphasizes the importance of modeling gratitude and expressing it consistently to help children develop a strong sense of self.

 

“And I think as parents, we do have stress. And we carry stress. And we don’t have to apologize to anyone for what our stress does to us. But we have to apologize to our children, or maybe a spouse, or maybe a parent, for what our stress did to them.”

 

Final Thoughts on the 14 Things

  • Heather and Kristina summarize the 14 things children need more of, emphasizing their importance and the fact that they are all free.
  • Kristina advises not to tackle all 14 things at once but to focus on one or two at a time and observe the impact on family dynamics and well-being.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that the 14 things are simple yet powerful and can significantly improve the quality of family life.
  • Kristina emphasizes the importance of modeling and prioritizing the 14 things to help children develop a strong sense of self and well-being.
  • Heather and Kristina conclude the discussion by expressing their gratitude for the opportunity to share these important insights.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Benefits of Time In Nature:

https://childmind.org/article/why-kids-need-to-spend-time-in-nature/

 

https://richardlouv.com/blog/every-child-needs-nature-not-just-the-ones-with-parent-who-appreciate-natur

 

Benefits of Unstructured Play:

https://www.apa.org/topics/children/kids-unstructured-play-benefits

Benefits of Hugs:

https://cincinnatifamilymagazine.com/the-healing-science-of-hugging-your-kids/

 

Benefits of Laughter:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/stress-management/in-depth/stress-relief/art-20044456

 

Body Safety:

Pattie Fitzgerald  – Safely Ever After

 

How Today’s Parents Say Their Approach to Parenting Does – or Doesn’t – Match Their Own Upbringing

 

Mindfulness of Schedules/Benefits of Down Time

 

Impact of Overscheduling on Skill Development

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

In prior episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In prior episodes, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

 

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 22: 14 Things All Kids Need, Part 2 of 2

 

Kristina  00:00

In today’s episode, we’re wrapping up our two-part discussion on the 14 things kids need more of with the final seven things.

 

Heather  00:08

These are all about creating a simple, supportive environment for our kids to truly thrive. We’re talking simplicity, belief in their goodness, daily rhythms and so much more. 

 

Kristina  00:19

We’ll dive into the power of a calm home, the importance of listening without judgment, and why it’s so crucial to express gratitude for who our children are, not just what they do. 

 

Heather  00:31

It’s amazing how these simple, free practices can have such a huge impact on kids, emotional well being and strengthen our family connections. 

 

Kristina  00:42

We can’t wait to share these ideas with you. So, let’s do it.

 

Heather  

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma

 

Heather

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re Support Service Directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina

 

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather

Are you ready? 

 

Kristina and Heather

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan, where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

 

Heather  

Please visit www. ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Heather  02:11

Hey, Kristina?

 

Kristina  02:12

Hey!

 

Heather  02:13

What are we going to talk about today? 

 

Kristina  02:15

We are talking about the other seven things from the 14 things that children need more of in their life. 

 

Heather

Awesome. So last episode, we talked about the first seven, and this episode-

 

Kristina  02:29

Seven more. Yes, yes, exactly. We will explore the remaining seven. And something I didn’t say last episode that I really want to make sure we say in this episode is one: you’ll notice that all 14 things cost nothing.

 

Heather  02:47

Free.

 

Kristina  02:48

Free to use. Free to implement. And two: please, I don’t want any of us to think we need to move into tomorrow implementing these 14. 

 

Heather  03:00

Oh, my goodness, please don’t. Oh, it’s overwhelming just thinking about it. 

 

Kristina  03:05

So, as we listen and as we explore these things, I’d like to challenge us all to pick out one or two things that we can commit to, saying, “I’m going to do more of that in my family and in my life, moving forward.” You can keep the list of 14. And I will refer back to them. And if it’s like, “Hey, we’ve got those two things, we can pick a couple. We can pick a couple more…”

 

Heather  03:30

But take bites. Don’t try to eat the whole meal. 

 

Kristina  03:33

Okay, I just needed to say that, because I can be an overachiever and be like, “I got 14 things. I got them on a list. I got my little check boxes. And here we go.” And that’s not reasonable. 

 

Heather  03:45

Alright. Well, tell us what number eight is. 

 

Kristina  03:47

Number eight is simplicity. 

 

Heather  03:50

Excellent.

 

Kristina  03:51

And we have a lot of fun talking about the good old days, right? When times were simpler. But there’s something about that simplicity that’s actually really, really good for kids. Back then, toys were simple, activities were simple, games were simple. And today we have a lot of very complicated things.

 

Heather  04:13

Well and even as I think about our homes, like I think about the childhood home that I grew up in and that we weren’t constantly renovating. There was no Pinterest. There was no expectation, right? You know, it’s just so different.

 

Kristina  04:29

I had a doll, not 20 dolls, right? We just had fewer things. And that allows for space. Less is more when it comes to the complicated things that we include in our lives and in our children’s lives. I remember hearing, if this is several years ago, a friend of mine thinking about Christmas, and what she shared was that in their family, each person gets four gifts. Something they want, something they need, something they wear, something to read. Dour things. Holy cow. And when I heard that, I thought, “I love that.” And then I thought, “Is it possible to only give those four things at Christmas?” And the fact that I had to ask myself that, and really was kind of confronted with, well, I love those four, but there will be more gifts and thinking, “but there don’t have to be.” Our kids have so many toys. It’s not like I have two coloring books. I have 17 coloring books and less, really can be more. There was a study done, and this had to do with supermarkets, actually. And if there are too many choices, like too many cereals, there’s a tipping point where we become immobilized when there are too many choices, 

 

Heather  05:59

Yeah, and we see that with children, yeah, we really in our classrooms. Try to pare things out. In our indoor classrooms, try to pare things down for them, because too many choices is debilitating. 

 

Kristina  06:10

Yes, something that my husband and I both struggle with is getting rid of things, right? We always have donation boxes going in the back room of our house, because we donate things an awful lot, but we also hang on to things for a long time. And I know that that’s kind of just never know when you’re gonna need it. Well, you don’t, and then, darn it, sometimes you actually did need the screw to the old door knob that you kept in the back corner of the garage, even though you didn’t even know what it went to. But then, darn it, you needed it. Welcomed my life last weekend when a door knob fell off and we needed that particular screw, which they don’t make anymore, because our house was built down 1903. so it can come back and bite us sometimes when we actually do use that stuff. But what I’m saying is we both grew up with the scarcity model, and so we hang on to things because of that deep fearthat we wouldn’t be able to replace it if we needed it in the future. And I’m very aware, especially as Grace gets older, that I don’t want to pass that on to her, right? So for her to see us with always those giveaway boxes, and saying it’s much better for somebody to use this than for us to store it, to allow her to have a looser grip on these tangible things in our world, and to be willing to pass them along, I think is really good. I just heard somebody say, for Lent. You know, I follow the season of Lent, and that for the 40 days of Lent each day, give something away, 40 things. And that can seem like a lot of things. And if you live a simpler life, that is a lot of things. But from my life, I should get rid of like, four things each day, because living a simpler life declutters the mind as it declutters your spaces. And can help with anxiety too. 

 

Heather  08:12

Oh, absolutely. I know that if my space gets filled with too many things and out of order, I do not feel good on the inside, 

 

Kristina  08:22

Right. It’s what we used to do as kids growing up, if my mom was getting stressed out, we had a secret code, and you would just go to the room that a sibling was in, and if they were in their bedroom, you’d open the door and say, white tornado. White tornado, very quietly, and we all knew that that meant you were going to clean as fast as you could, as quietly as you could, because that was going to help decrease the stress in the house. It was going to help my mother feel better. So those stairs, going upstairs, we were all taking all the things off the stairs and putting them where they belonged, putting laundry away, having a simpler environment helps us all feel more calm. So modeling and practicing with children that kind of non-attachment with things and being able to let go of things that can become normal for a child, if you model that so looking at your life and saying, where are the places we could simplify schedule, simplify the things that we welcome into our home, simplify the expectations that we have for different events. Even that is something that children need more of they do not need more toys. They need less toys. And in fact, what we can do is to even put some of the toys aside and cycle things in and out so that they don’t have access to all the toys. Yeah, at the same time, 

 

Heather  09:57

Because they get  tired of them after a while, and then they’re just sitting. And we used to do that, put some things away and get things back out at a different time, because they interact with them differently. If they haven’t been with all of those toys for a while, right? 

 

Kristina  10:14

And if you have 50 toys, that’s a lot to take care of, but if I have 10 or 15, that’s more manageable when you’re teaching-when we teach our children about putting things away and caring for belongings and respecting things like property, less is more. 

 

Heather  10:34

Alright. Number nine, belief in their goodness. I love this one because I am so grateful to be a mom and to have three wonderful kids, and I always wanted them to know. I always wanted them to feel highly regarded, and I always wanted them to know, no matter what had happened in the day, right? We’re not perfect parents. Nobody is no we all goof it up. We all muck it up. We have days that are bad for any number of reasons. Maybe we yelled, maybe I had said things I didn’t want to ever think that I would say to my children, or I had a quick wick and had gotten angry, and they internalized that. 

 

Kristina  11:25

Because that’s what children do. 

 

Heather  11:26

They absolutely do that for lots of different reasons, partly because we’re their people, and we’re their safe place, and so when we regard them in that way, they think they’ve done something wrong, because that’s what they naturally tell themselves. Developmentally, littles are just so egocentric, and then into that re-emerges, in you know, the teenage years, when they’re so incredibly egocentric again, that they can convince themselves of all sorts of irrational things, like my teacher’s in a bad mood because of something we’re doing in class, or my parents are fighting because I didn’t eat my dinner, right? And it doesn’t even have to make sense or be rational. They have a child’s mind and brain, which is hard for us as adults with our adult brains, to comprehend how they could possibly come to that conclusion, Because it is not rooted in anything sensical, right? 

 

Kristina  12:27

What it’s actually rooted in Heather is attachment, 

 

Heather  12:30

Absolutely

 

Kristina  12:31

In order for a child to attach to their caregiver, which we know is that attachment more important than food and water. In order to do that, the caregiver has to be safe. So if the caregiver acts in a way that is unsafe, meaning they use words that harm or cause shame or induce guilt, or they behave in a way that’s physically unsafe. So physically, emotionally, mentally unsafe, the child has to keep that caregiver safe in their mind so they take on the responsibility for the behavior the caregiver exhibited. 

 

Heather  13:15

And I have done those things. I have done those things, and we go back to when we talk about sleep and the final thoughts that we want our kids to have at the end of the day, at least my husband and I was, you are loved. We are so glad that we get to be your parents. And to have them go to bed with that knowledge of you are ours. We belong to each other. Those are just really important things, because it builds their inner voice. They have to believe in their goodness, and they have to have that sense of belonging within our homes. I think back to when my son Luke was making Profession of Faith in church. And we are a family of faith, as I’ve said that before. And he had decided that this was something he was going to do. I believe he was probably 15. He’s almost 18 now. So I would say this was roughly three years ago. And they were recording a video, and they had to write basically their testimony. That was the process in our church. And so they had to write their testimony. It was recorded on video. There were many kids that were deciding to do this at once. Safety in numbers, I think. And so this video played, and here we are in church, hearing this and seeing Luke on the screen, and we have not done certainly everything right as parents in our home. But this was a moment that was so impactful for my husband and I. And we were like, even if we did a ton of things wrong, man, at least we got that right. 

 

Kristina

Yeah.

 

Heather  15:00

Yeah, and I want to share Luke’s words with you, because I don’t think as-Oh, I’m gonna, I’m gonna get choked up…As a mom and as a parent sitting next to my husband, I don’t think I’ll ever forget them. I can quote them to this day, because it was remarkable what he said in the midst of a bunch of other things, the part that really jumped out at me was “I’m told daily that I’m loved, and I’m shown daily that I’m loved. And the love of my earthly father has drawn me closer and helped me better understand the love my Heavenly Father has for me.”

 

Kristina  15:38

I’ve got goosebumps all over.

 

Heather  15:42

I know. And I remember hearing those words come from my 15 year old son’s mouth, and oh, he was sitting right ahead of us with all the other kids. And I think I tossed my hand through his hair, and I knew, without looking at my husband, he was choked up. I mean, what a beautiful…he went on to talk about, you know, all of these nature experiences they’ve had, and what that’s meant to him. And how he feels the presence in those moments. But to have that resonate with him, “I’m told daily that I’m loved, and I’m shown daily that I’m loved.” Even when we think our kids are missing it. You pick it up. 

 

Kristina  16:23

And even when we are really screwing it up.

 

Heather  16:25

Yes, right? When those words are present and they’re frequent, and they’re told every single night when their head hits the pillow, “You are loved. We are together. I belong to you. You belong to me.” So belief in their goodness, 

 

Kristina  16:41

Yeah, and I just want to say something else. We’ve talked before about how many times a child does not have your full attention. When they do have your full intention, it is because many times they’re behaving in a way that is not acceptable, that is not appropriate.

 

Heather  16:57

Because those are the moments that we zero in on them. 

 

Kristina  16:59

Absolutely. And so we can focus on the times when a child is being “bad” or “naughty.”And when we focus our energy in that place, that does become their inner voice.

 

Heather  17:14

It does

 

Kristina  17:14

right. They doubt their ability to make decisions. They doubt that they are a good person. 

 

Heather  17:20

And if they get that sort of feeling about themselves and start telling themselves that they live into it because they’re told, Oh, I’m the naughty one, right, right? I’m expected to be naughty. 

 

Kristina  17:33

Yes, again, first five years affect the next 80. And when that inner voice is one of I am bad, I am not capable. That is what the voice into. 

 

Heather  17:47

It’s the voice of shame and doubt, and they will live into that. 

 

Kristina  17:51

Hey, listeners, we’re so grateful to be part of your village. If these conversations and episodes have been impactful to you, we deeply appreciate your support to continue doing the work we love so much for such an amazing nonprofit organization. Please visit www.GearUp-podcast.com to make a tax deductible contribution. Thank you.

 

Kristina  18:16

Okay, tell us number 10. 

 

Heather  18:18

Number 10” daily rhythms and rituals, which I feel like we’ve talked about the importance of rhythms and rituals and schedules and all of that. And what this is for kids is it goes back to safety and security and predictability. It allows children to settle knowing that they know what to expect, that they know what’s coming, that they know how the day flows. Gives them all that ability to predict and to anticipate, and it allows their nervous system to rest and not have to be on high alert, what’s coming, what’s happening. I think as adults, we feel better with that so many of us, and of course, that’s a temperament thing as well. Some people are just more flexible and adaptable. Others are not. They need that definition. They need that framework. In children, we know all of them do better when they’re operating within that framework and that structure, 

 

Kristina  19:26

When your child is little, right? When Grace was little…and this is true for many, many children. They want the same stories read over and over. 

 

Heather  19:35

Because it’s predictable and they know the outcome, 

 

Kristina  19:37

Yes, and so they can settle. And again, they don’t need to be on alert. 

 

Heather  19:42

And they find great safety and security and all of that repetition and knowing exactly what to expect. And this is also, I think, when we talk about daily rhythms and rituals, this is the place to where we have to set. We really have to decide what we’re gonna allow into our lives, what we’re going to place priority on, how we’re spending our time and how much of our time. And what we model is what speaks to our children, so much more loudly than our words.

 

Kristina  20:19

Yep. And they grow up thinking that’s the way it is. That’s the normal 

 

Heather  20:23

Our values become their values. So that was number 10, yep. Number 11: a calm environment. I feel like we keep saying the word “calm.” “Calm.” But it’s because it’s so necessary for children and for adults. It provides, again, safety and predictability. It increases emotional and mental wellbeing. For all, we’ve all been in situations where you think, I mean your white tornado moment with your mom, right? Doesn’t really bring the calm. It’s like, oh, something’s on the horizon, and it is not pretty, right? And we’ve all been there in our homes where it’s like something’s happening here. Storms are brewing. If I put my foot down here, is that mine gonna go off? Yeah, if I put my foot down here, that is not a great way for anyone’s central nervous system, right, to live, right? It’s just a state of dysregulation. Our jaw might be clenched, our shoulders might be higher. We hold our body with all this tension, and it does not provide an environment for learning and growth. 

 

Kristina  21:33

No, I like to think of it like an engine. Is your engine idling really high, and we can get used to operating in that zone, yeah, and that allowing space in our homes, especially in our relationships with our children, to have that sometimes right, but then also to have them really experience the lived experience of calm, what comfort that can bring. 

 

Heather  22:03

I mean, you watch a hummingbird in nature, you think, Oh, my goodness, how do they move at that pace? How do they move at that pace? And then I go outside and I see, you know, my fat cat and laying in the sun, and I’m like, now, that’s a life. That is a life. Sunnin’ itself, just laying there, you’re no hummingbird, 

 

Kristina  22:22

Right. And the hummingbirds were designed to operate that way. Yeah, we were not.

 

Heather  22:26

No, And if we try to operate that way, it can, especially in children, look a bit maniacal. It comes out all sorts of sideways. And we don’t want that for our kids. We want them to find peace and calm and rest and not feel guilty about being in a state of rest, in a state of calm, because sometimes our culture can push us into believing Go, go, go, go, go. Right? That’s always the way 

 

Kristina  22:52

you’re lazy, you’re wasting time if you’re not always being productive, right? That’s what our culture wants us to believe. I loved the sign you had in your house. Heather, Haven. 

 

Heather  23:04

Oh, a place of safety or and refuge. 

 

Kristina  23:07

Yeah, we want our homes and our partnerships, yes, to be a safe haven for each other, for our children, yes, yeah. 

 

Heather  23:09

And to just be the place where, when the world gets crazy, they want to just come home. They want to be home because of the feelings that home brings. And that goes back to number 9,10, and 11, calm environment, yeah, daily rhythm. You know what to expect. And this is a place where I’m known, and there’s a belief in my goodness.

 

Kristina  23:40

And that whatever you are bringing home, whatever has transpired in your day- 

 

Heather  23:45

We’ll figure it out. 

 

Kristina  23:46

We will. It may not be pretty, but we’re going to do it together, because we belong to each other. I love it. Next one is: compassion. Children need more compassion in their lives. We beat this drum a lot. But having compassion and empathy for our children allows them to feel safe with their feelings, with their wonders, their hurts, and their ideas 

 

Heather  24:17

and just who they are in general, if we minimize that, they internalize it.

 

Kristina  24:23

Allowing our children to tell us their realities, instead of telling them how they feel, that they’re being ridiculous, that type of thing, it builds their confidence and it also secures their inner voice. 

 

Heather  24:37

The thing that I have learned as my children have grown is they really just want us to listen. Yeah, so often it’s just about listening.

 

Kristina  24:48

Well and having that developmentally appropriate understanding of what is appropriate for your child at this age, they aren’t able to manage all of the things that we can as an adult. They don’t experience them the same ways. I think Brene Brown perhaps said something about how empathy really is, believing someone when they tell you what their experience is. 

 

Heather  25:16

Not that you know their experience better than they do. 

 

Kristina  25:19

Right. Yep, and then having compassion for that, even if it does seem ridiculous to you. Oh my gosh. Probably 25 years ago, I remember a student coming into my office and oh, she was so upset I did not handle this well. So let me just preface it that way, do not do as I did in this example. So she came in my office, she was super upset, and I was in a space where I was not compassionate, too many things, too little time. That’s how I was. Can remember it to this day, she came in upset. I said, something has happened, what has happened? And another child had stuck her tongue out at her, so in this moment, right? Too much to do too little time. Zip, zip, zip, zip, My engine is a humming. I stuck my tongue out at her, and I said, that really doesn’t hurt, does it? Oh, gross, right. Gross on so many levels. 

 

Heather  26:19

Girl, that was not your finest moment.

 

Kristina  26:21

 It was not my finest moment at all. But to me, it was like, “This is ridiculous. Somebody sticking their tongue out doesn’t actually cause you harm, right?” But for this child in this moment with that child’s tongue being stuck out at her, was devastating. So I should have entered that in a much different way. 

 

Heather  26:40

And when I hear you talk about that, I can almost feel your stress. Oh, yeah, whatever was happening. And I think as parents, we do have stress. And we carry stress. And we don’t have to apologize to anyone for what our stress does to us. But we have to apologize to our children, or maybe a spouse, or maybe a parent, for what our stress did to them. 

 

Kristina  27:09

So Heather, we are sliding into the last two of the 14 things children need more of, and it is: a shoulder to cry on. Now this is so similar right to compassion, but we all need a place where we can go and just let it out. And we need to be that for our children. You know, I have started, this is a few years ago, implementing a few questions when somebody comes to me, whether it’s my child or a co worker or a friend and saying, “Do you need me to just listen? Are you hoping for advice? Are you hoping that I’ll do something?” Because often times for me, I launch into advice or I just want to fix it. And sometimes all we really need is for somebody to listen. So having that shoulder to cry on being the safe place and letting them express their feelings and communicating to them that those feelings are valued and they are valid.

 

Heather  28:19

I love that you ask those questions because so often our adult brain wants to shift from actively listening into actively problem solving, right? And so often our children just want us to listen. Or our co workers just want us to listen. So the “What are you hoping for?” is a really important question. I’ll say to my kids, “What’s my role in this?”

 

Kristina  28:46

Yes, that’s another great question.

 

Heather  28:47

Because it gives them all of the autonomy, all of the control. “What are you needing from me? What’s my role in this?”

 

Kristina  28:55

Yeah, well, and have you ever had it where you just really need to share about something, but as you’re sharing, then that person is like, “Well, I’m gonna go talk to so and so, and I’m gonna…” It’s like, “No, no-

 

Heather  29:08

Or they start talking about themselves and whatever. That happens too, not because, I mean, people relate in all different sort of ways, but all of a sudden it can be like, “Oh, okay. Now this is different than what I thought it was going to be…”

 

Kristina  29:23

Sometimes we just need to be there to listen. Okay, most often just to listen.

 

Heather  29:31

Final one: 14.

 

Kristina  29:33

Here we go…

 

Heather  29:33

Expressed gratitude for who they are. It sounds again, so simple, but it’s one of those things that if we’re not intentional, we might not realize we’re not doing this or communicating this in the way that we might have hoped for. So I think it, again, is the work of Brene Brown, because she’s talks about belonging a lot, and about safety and belonging.

 

Heather  30:00

And I believe it’s her work, where she talked about not feeling like she belonged in her home and not feeling known within her family. It’s a really important thing for kids that they need to view us as their people. We talk about “same, sames,” right? Tat connect us. And that children can actually be like, “Yeah, my mom really likes that.” Or, you know, Grace could say “My mom loves watching My Pretty Pony with me

 

Kristina  30:27

It’s My Little Pony. 

 

Heather  30:31

Oh, sorry. My pretty pony is a very different thing. Think those are from the eighties. Excuse me. But you know, those are the things they need to feel connected to us and known by us, and that their contribution and who they are is enough, 

 

Kristina  30:50

And that’s it. Who they are, not what they do, they’re not what they produce, but who they are 

 

Heather  30:57

as they are, and that they fit right with us. They’re exactly where they should be. So that goes back to, I believe this is just again about the modeling. And sometimes it helps me to think, what type of parents do I want my kids to be? What do I want to model for my children? Or how would I want to see them treat their child? And that will help me get out of my emotional brain sometimes and get into back to my thinking. And I think we as parents just want to keep at the forefront what we’re modeling and what we’re making time for in our homes, and being able to say, I’m so grateful for you. I love you so much. Every single day. Goes back to Luke. “I’m told every day that I’m loved, and I’m shown every day and that I’m loved.”  

 

Kristina  31:50

I think it’s important for us to give specific affirmations and specific expressions of gratitude for who our children are.

 

Heather  31:59

What it is about them, 

 

Kristina  32:01

yes, or what characteristic we saw, your kindness, your generosity, your patience, whatever it is that we have seen in them. To call that out specifically, I do think we have this generation, couple generations now, of individuals who do not have a realistic understanding of their gifts and their talents, because we went through this whole phase where, if a child drew a picture, oh, that’s the most beautiful picture I’ve ever seen, or in a child plays their violin for the first time, and it’s like, Ah, that’s so beautiful. You are such an amazing musician, and this kind of over the top praise that, I mean, that’s how we get the American Idol tryouts that we do, right? The ones that are cringy because somebody thinks they’re good at..

 

Heather  32:56

Someone has told them some lies…

 

Kristina  32:59

Yes along the way. So helping our children build that strong sense of self, strong inner voice and realistic understanding of what their strengths are. 

 

Heather  33:11

Yeah, rooted in honesty and truth and love. We also have some generations that can’t take feedback. Yeah, yes. It’s really challenging because everything has been maybe syrup, right? That’s tricky, too. Yeah, so being able ourselves and modeling when our kids give us feedback, it’s not always the easiest thing to hear the wisdom from the young ones. But when we consider how much wisdom we’re imparting on them consistently, we have to be able to take it too and model for them that we also can consider that.

 

Kristina  33:47

And can continue to learn and grow. So those are the 14 things that children need more of. Important things. Free things. Wonderful, wonderful things. Don’t tackle them all. 

 

Heather  34:02

Please don’t.

 

Kristina  34:03

Tackle one or two at a time. And pay attention to how that impacts your relationships, the dynamic within your family, and the sense of, I think, joy.

 

Heather  34:17

And well being in your home.

 

Kristina  

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey, until next time…

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina  

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell,

 

Heather  

The ODC Network is a nonprofit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  

Since 2000 the ODC network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

14 Things Kids Need More Of, Part 1 of 2

 

“It’s when we begin to build their inner voice…So these first five years are critical, and it’s easy to say things to yourself like, ‘Well, they’ll never remember this kind of thing’ about when they’re really young. But the truth of the matter is: you’re teaching skills that ignite brain growth and development. And missing out on that does affect somebody for the next 80 years of their life.”

 

Introduction to the Episode and List of 14 Things Children Need More Of

  • Heather introduces the episode, mentioning that it is based on a list of 14 things children need more of, which they will discuss in a two-part series.
  • Heather reads the first seven items: unstructured play, sunlight, nature, hugs, freedom to explore, playtime with parents, and laughter.
  • Heather emphasizes that it’s never too late to start something new, even if you haven’t done these things before.

 

“…For optimal learning to take place, children need time to explore. They’re natural explorers, right?..And we call that “deep play”, which usually takes 30 minutes for them to kind of look around…it takes them a bit to kind of window shop and look around and decide what they’re going to get into. And then when they’re in it and they’re creating, that’s the deep play. And…the learning that occurs. In that deep play, that’s when connections are built in the brain.”

 

Importance of Unstructured Play

  • Kristina explains the significance of unstructured play, which focuses on the process rather than the product, allowing children to use their imagination and explore their environment.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the concept of “deep play,” which involves longer periods of unstructured play that are crucial for brain development.
  • They highlight the difference between unstructured play and structured activities like playdates, which are often product-driven.

 

“And when…we see blue sky and sunshine, we all just kind of rush outside and point our faces to it. It’s the same for our kids. It impacts our mood. It impacts their mood. We need that Vitamin D within us. It plays a crucial role in so many body processes, from bone development to our immune system to healthy sleep. 

 

We learned about that in our sleep episode, that the morning light is actually the most powerful light for brain chemicals and things of that nature and that it actually helps us get to sleep earlier, and so impactful on our mood and our bodies. And our brains just work best when we have sunshine in our day. So get those kids outside in the sunshine, in unstructured play, in all seasons.”

 

“There is a Richard Louv quote…we use this all the time in our preschool world: ‘Every child needs nature. Not just the ones whose parents appreciate nature. Not only those of a certain economic class or culture or set of abilities. Every child’…and I would add, ‘every adult,’ not just the children. It’s all of us.”



The Power of Sunlight and Nature

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of sunlight for both children and adults, noting its impact on mood, vitamin D levels, and sleep.
  • They emphasize the need for children to spend time outside in the sunshine, even in places like Michigan where the weather can be challenging.
  • Heather introduces the concept of nature being essential for children, citing a staggering statistic that the average child spends only four to seven minutes outside each day.
  • They discuss the numerous benefits of spending time in nature, including improved physical and mental health, increased confidence, and better focus.

 

“So we’ve talked before about how attachment to your primary caregivers is more important than food and water to the child… giving hugs and having that joining of gentle, loving touch is super important from the time they’re infants, and they don’t lose that as they grow up. Now, there’s a weird little time, kind of in puberty, where kids can be like, ‘I don’t want to hug you. I don’t want to hug you.’ That’s okay. They’ll come back around. But having that kind of physical love and physical expression are important. ‘I care about you. I love you.’ And…hugs are very regulating. Heart to heart. And you’re breathing next to each other’s ears. And it’s a time of coming together and softening in times of upset. And it’s also a way to express joy and excitement at being back together…”

 

The Role of Hugs in Child Development

  • Kristina talks about the importance of hugs for children, noting that attachment to primary caregivers is crucial for their development.
  • She explains that hugs are regulating and help children manage stress, especially during times of upset.
  • Heather shares a personal story about her husband, who initially struggled with showing physical affection but eventually learned to embrace it.
  • They discuss the importance of finding ways to express physical affection, even if it doesn’t come naturally to the parent.

 

“Yeah, it’s the confidence you see in kids at our preschools as they’re climbing trees and figuring out that they actually can do it. And it feels good to trust your body and to be able to assess, “Do I feel safe doing this? Do I not feel safe doing this?” And letting kids explore their own capabilities? And a lot of that is more easily done outside than in.”

 

 

“So even taking ten minutes to join with your child in play sets them up better for the whole day. And when we talk about joining them in their play, we want to think about one not interrupting the play, but coming alongside. And not directing the play, but coming in alongside. And it does a number of different things. First of all, doing that allows the child to continue to use their imagination and to show their leadership. They’re trying to determine, ‘Am I capable? Am I competent?”’ And when you come in and don’t tell them, ‘Actually, this is how you use Playdoh,’ or come in and start directing. It allows them to have those feelings of: I’m leading, I’m guiding. I can do this. “

 

Freedom to Explore and Playtime with Parents

  • Kristina emphasizes the importance of allowing children the freedom to explore their environment without a specific agenda.
  • She shares an example of her daughter Grace’s interest in experimenting with slime, which led to some messy but valuable learning experiences.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the benefits of children having the freedom to explore both indoors and outdoors, which helps build their confidence and problem-solving skills.
  • They talk about the right balance of playtime with parents, emphasizing the importance of joining children in their play without directing it.

 

“Laughter is so fun and so good for everyone. And it’s just healthy. It lightens moods. It cuts tension. It’s a skill that you can teach your kids…and it’s really important for children. It helps them relax. It does relieve tension. It gives their mental health a boost…When we’re laughing, endorphins are released in our brain. And they are just saying to us, ‘Don’t be stressed. Just take this moment and have some fun and relax.’ And that’s a really powerful thing in busy lives.”

 

The Benefits of Laughter

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the positive impact of laughter on children, noting that it helps them relax, relieves tension, and boosts mental health.
  • They share personal anecdotes about incorporating laughter into their family routines, such as Heather’s habit of making her children jump in and out of moving vehicles…safely!
  • Kristina mentions that laughter increases the body’s infection-fighting antibodies, making it a health-promoting activity.
  • They encourage parents to create a home environment where laughter is encouraged and appreciated, as it brings joy and reduces stress.

 

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

  • Heather and Kristina wrap up the episode by reiterating the importance of the seven items they discussed: unstructured play, sunlight, nature, hugs, freedom to explore, playtime with parents, and laughter.
  • They emphasize that all of these elements are free and accessible to everyone, making them valuable additions to children’s lives.
  • The episode ends with a light-hearted discussion about the importance of humor and laughter in everyday life, reinforcing the message that it is a valuable skill to teach children.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Body Safety:

Pattie Fitzgerald  – Safely Ever After

 

How Today’s Parents Say Their Approach to Parenting Does – or Doesn’t – Match Their Own Upbringing

 

Mindfulness of Schedules/Benefits of Down Time

 

Impact of Overscheduling on Skill Development

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

In prior episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In prior episodes, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

 

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

 

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 21: The 14 Things Kids Need More Of…

 

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re sharing something really special: 14 things kids need more of. Over the years, as parents and professionals, we’ve collected resources we think are helpful to parents. And this list is one that we pulled from our collection. It represents some basic things that cost nothing but are so important for kiddos. This will be a two episode conversation, starting with the first seven things. 

 

Kristina

In this episode, we discuss the power of unstructured play, the magic of sunlight, the benefits of nature, and why hugs, freedom and laughter are essential for our kids wellbeing. 

 

Heather

We’ll also chat about why play time with parents is so important for bonding and brain development –  and how these simple things can make a huge difference in our kids’ happiness and health. 

 

Kristina

It’s all about giving them the space and experiences that help them thrive. So…let’s jump in. This is going to be a fun one.

 

Heather  01:03

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma

 

Heather

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re Support Service Directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina

 

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather

Are you ready? 

 

Kristina and Heather

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  01:54

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan, where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:07

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

 

Heather  02:14

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. 

 

Today, we are going to be talking about a list of things that we think children need more of.

 

Kristina  02:30

We gather information from all over the place. We read a ton of books. We follow a lot of people, and – 

 

Heather

We get asked a lot of questions. 

 

We do. And so, over the years, we kind of curate this – I have these folders in my drive that are like “good ideas”, “wisdom”, “quotes”, things like that, where I just dump the good stuff that we find.

 

Heather  02:52

Yes. And this is something that we think children need more of. And it’s impactful. And we want to share it with you today.

 

Kristina  02:59

And it’s a list. And I love a good list, especially if there are check boxes involved. I mean that that is my jam, right?

 

Heather  03:06

You do like a good check box. That is very true. 

 

Kristina  03:10

So, we’re going to talk about the first seven.

 

Heather  03:12

Yeah. First thing on the list that we’re going to talk about is unstructured play. As we go through these things, it’s really important to remember that it’s never too late to start something new. If you haven’t done these, it’s okay. We hadn’t done them. It’s never too late to start something new in any given moment. So Kristina, walk us through why we feel unstructured play is so important for our children.

 

Kristina  03:42

Yeah, and those two words “unstructured” and “play” are super important.

 

Heather  03:47

They are. Because play date is not unstructured play necessarily.

 

Kristina  03:53

Many times. So we’ve talked before about, you know, the good old days where our parents just like shut the door behind us when they put us outside and we played unstructured – 

 

Heather  04:04

That was unstructured to its fullest. And unsupervised. Mostly.

 

Kristina  04:09

Okay, so we want to up the supervision, perhaps. But the unstructured part we really want to hold on to. Unstructured play is play that is focused on the process, not the product. So, allowing children to really use their imagination and to engage in things that they’re naturally interested in is the beautiful part of this unstructured play. For optimal learning to take place, children need time to explore. They’re natural explorers, right? And given time to really explore their environment is important for their learning. In fact, that’s when they have the optimal learning taking place.

 

Heather  04:56

And we call that “deep play,” which usually takes 30 minutes for them to kind of look around. Our teachers cultivate invitations to play, because we have a play-based program. And so it’s very much child -led and play-based. So there are invitations to play. But it takes those kids a bit, even though they know they come in, they have 60 full minutes of free play minimum. But it takes them a bit to kind of window shop and look around and decide what they’re going to get into. And then when they’re in it and they’re creating, that’s the deep play. And that’s what you’re talking about, the learning that occurs.

 

Kristina  05:34

Right. And in that deep play, that’s when connections are built in the brain. So, if you say to kids, “Hey, you can go play.” And then in 20 minutes, they need to clean up, and we’re gonna go, they don’t get there. They haven’t entered the deep play. Now, there’s nothing wrong with playing for 20 minutes. But we’re looking for longer periods of time that are unstructured so that you can have that optimal brain development.

 

Heather  06:01

Right. And when our kids were younger, I feel like we were in this play date phase. 

 

Kristina

Yes, very much so. 

 

Heather

Let’s have a play date. And we’re gonna have stations set up for the children, and it was all parent-led and parent-directed. 

 

Kristina  06:16

“Here’s a cute craft you’re gonna do,” right? And “here’s what it’s gonna look like when it’s done.” That’s product driven, as opposed to, “Here are materials.” We call them “loose parts” at school. And you can do what you’d like with those. Create what you’d like to create, not “now we’re going to make a little penguin. And this is what the penguin is going to look like when you’re done.” So focusing more on that process than on the product and giving it ample time. 

 

Heather  06:45

Absolutely. It’s a really important thing for children. And it cultivates their joy of learning.

 

Kristina  06:52

Right. There’s a quote that I saw at some point along the road, and I love it because it reminds me of the importance of those first five years. And this is the quote, “The first five years have so much to do with how the next 80 turn out.”

 

Heather  07:14

Absolutely, it’s so true, because it’s huge brain development and it’s huge foundation building for all of the things that come later. It’s all those soft skills of interpersonal communication, problem solving, waiting your turn…

 

Kristina  07:31

And bigger things like feeling safe in the world, right? Knowing you’re worthy of love and you can love. It’s when we begin to build their inner voice. So these first five years are critical. And it’s easy to say things to yourself like, “Well, they’ll never remember this” kind of thing about when they’re really young. But the truth of the matter is, you’re teaching skills that ignite brain growth and development. And missing out on that does affect somebody, right? For the next 80 years of their life. So that’s the first thing children need more of: unstructured play.

 

Heather  08:13

Powerful, powerful stuff. I think far more powerful than many of us realize. The next thing, also powerful: sunlight. We don’t need to talk about sunlight quite as in depth, because I think as adults, we know how powerful sunlight is for us as well. At least I do well. 

 

Kristina

Well, we live in Michigan. 

 

Heather

We live in Michigan. We’re in the season of darkness right now, called Winter. So I feel like when there’s a break in the clouds, because we have that beautiful, gorgeous, giant lake, but it brings the clouds and heavy to us right on the lakeshore. And when those break apart and we see blue sky and sunshine, we all just kind of rush outside and point our faces to it. It’s the same for our kids. It impacts our mood. It impacts their mood. We need that Vitamin D within us. It plays a crucial role in so many body processes, from bone development to our immune system to healthy sleep. We learned about that in our sleep episode, that the morning light is actually the most powerful light for brain chemicals and things of that nature. And that it actually helps us get to sleep earlier, and so impactful on our mood and our bodies. And our brains just work best when we have sunshine in our day. So get those kids outside in the sunshine, in unstructured play, in all seasons. Even if you’re in Michigan, where it’s not as sunny. 

Kristina

Take advantage-

 

Heather

Be out there so that when you get that peek, you’re right there. The third thing on our list, perhaps it should have been the first. 

 

Kristina

It could have been.

 

Heather

Nature.

 

Kristina  10:01

Nature.

 

Heather  10:03

So important. There is a Richard Louv quote that I absolutely love. I know you do too. We use this all the time in our preschool world: “Every child needs nature. Not just the ones whose parents appreciate nature. Not only those of a certain economic class or culture or set of abilities. Every child.”

 

Kristina  10:23

So true! And I would add, “every adult,” not just the children. It’s all of us.

 

Heather  10:32

It is all of us for all of the amazing and wonderful benefits that we’ve talked about in the past. But also, this is a staggering statistic: in America, the average child spends four to seven minutes outside each day. Four to seven minutes. 

 

Kristina  10:52

That makes me feel sick. And it’s probably moving from the home to the car or the car to the school. 

 

Heather  11:00

Yeah. It’s not enough. It’s not enough time. Most of our time with children is spent inside, and that’s largely technology-driven in our world today. And spending time outside isn’t just enjoyable, it is necessary. 

 

Kristina  11:19

It is. Isn’t there some kind of- No, I’m not going to remember it, Heather, so you’re gonna have to help me. But it’s like another form of poverty is having such limited time in nature.

 

Heather

Yes. Absolutely.

 

Kristina

And we don’t think of it that way, that it’s that important to get out into nature for our well being. 

 

Heather  11:37

It is so important for our well being. And reason being, kids who play outside are happier. They’re better at paying attention and focusing, and they are less anxious than kids who spend time indoors. It impacts physical health, mental health, mood, all of those things are impacted by time being spent in nature. It also builds their confidence. There’s much different play for children outside than indoors. We know this right? Kids play so differently indoors versus outdoors. They’re way more physical. There’s way more large body, gross motor movement. They have vast spaces that are open, so they can get more creative outside. I think of the structures that our students build outside versus inside, right? They have the blocks inside, and that’s great, right? But when they’re outside and they’re hauling, you know, huge branches, huge branches, and it takes three of them to haul them, and then they have to try to stand it upright because they’re building a structure. Look at what’s really happening there with the skills that are being built, all the problem solving, right? All the designing, all of the working together. 

 

Kristina  12:53

I love it when they figure out that they can make a seesaw outside with, you know, stumps and logs and branches. And it’s like, yeah, very different than seeing at a playground, like, there’s a seesaw. Here I go. 

 

Heather  13:07

And I always wonder, like, where’s the little blossoming architect in the group? Like, what about this play is nurturing something within each child, to your point of: what we do in these first five years creates what we are doing in the next eighty. So true. We watch these kids play, and they play so differently outside. It gets them moving differently. It gets us moving differently. You know, I was out last week with our students. And I’m pulling kids on sleds. And so much sledding, which is so much fun. And what joy a five foot hill with very little decline can bring. And if they hit the fence, they’re so excited. And so the movement is just different. And there’s more exercise involved than if they’re on the couch. Powerful. Not only is exercise good for kids’ bodies. It helps them be more focused in the mind. It’s especially impactful for kids with ADHD.

 

Kristina  14:08

Yes, game changing, right? And I was reading a research study recently, and it was identifying the difference between focused attention and passive attention. And that being in nature allows us to utilize our passive attention. Birds are singing 

 

Heather  14:29

Because as adults, we filter that out right? Children don’t-

 

Kristina  14:35

The wind blowing. Right. And spending that time with our passive attention being ignited allows us to better have focused attention. Holy moly! So, getting outside can help so much with that. And I often think at work, if I’m working on something and I kind of get that brain fog or this sense of like that’s all kind of jumbled in my brain. What do I do? I go outside for a walk. Or I go outside to play with children, because that’s going to allow me, when I come back in, to be refocused. 

 

Heather  15:13

I do absolutely the same thing. Or, if I’m working on something and it’s maybe weighty, and it’s a bit draining emotionally or mentally or whatever, I have to get out. And I have to play with those kids. And I have to really focus on the joy of what we get to do. And I always say “what we get to do,” because it truly feels like that. What an honor to be with those kids and to play with them and grow them and watch them grow.

 

Kristina  15:43

Well and you noticed something in me. Over the course of the past year, there have been a lot of things happening in our world. I have a child who has a passion and a heart for all of the people and all of the things. And when there’s suffering and when there’s tragedy and when there’s unrest, she feels that very deeply. That’s my nature as well. But you pointed out that, in this last year, I’m managing it better – the unrest and the distress and the suffering in the world – because I’m outside more. And that has allowed me to manage my angst and heartbreak over things that are really tricky better. It doesn’t mean that I’m like this little, you know, “Pollyanna” where everything’s fantastic because I can be outside. But it allows me to manage that stress level. It helps all of us.

 

Heather  16:45

Nature has no desire to keep us angsty or stressed. And it has the opposite effect, right? It calms us. It regulates us for all the reasons we’ve talked about before. It impacts your central nervous system, and like you said, whether it’s consciously or subconsciously. For adults, it’s more subconscious because we’ve just dulled our senses to some of that because we move so quickly. Children, their senses haven’t dulled. They notice it all, and they go at such a beautiful pace…

 

Kristina

And their awe and wonder. 

 

Heather

Oh yeah, when the student becomes the teacher. 

 

Kristina  17:21

Yes. Because we fly past so much of that. Because we’re focused on getting where we need to go, as opposed to slowing down and actually experiencing the awe and wonder that is all around us in nature. 

 

Heather  17:33

I will never forget when we were going to one of my boys’ T-ball games, soccer games, I’m not really sure. Ava had been in threes preschool. She was probably in fours preschool by now. And we were walking through, like, where the rec fields are by the local school system. And all of a sudden she went, “Oh!” I was like, “Oh, my goodness. What?” It caused panic within me, you know. And she bends down and she’s got her cupped hands. And she picks up the wooly caterpillar. And I thought, “Oh!” I thought something terrible was about to like…it startled me. But to her, it was this wonder of this wooly caterpillar is going to get stepped on. She’s like, “Mom, I must move him. He’s in the path to be stepped on.” And it was totally her reaction. And I never saw it. I would have never seen it. She knew immediately what was there, and took care of it. It’s what nature does for us and for our children- the fresh air, the sunlight, the impact on our physical and mental health. Powerful. 

 

Kristina  18:44

And I know we beat this drum a lot, right? “Get in nature. Be in nature. Nature is healing for all of us,” but it’s because it’s true.

 

Heather  18:54

It is absolutely true. And it has a powerful impact. You know, we talk about the world wanting us to be angsty and it just there’s so much out there. Nature has no desire to do that. It just wants us to be at peace.

 

Kristina  19:10

And it’s accessible for all of us. So nature. That was our number three, right? 

 

Heather  19:17

Yes. Number four is hugs. Talk to us about hugs.

 

Kristina  19:19

Hugs. I am a hugger. And I love Hugs. Hugs are another thing that children need more of. Actually, adults need more of it too. So we’ve talked before about how attachment to your primary caregivers is more important than food and water to the child. So giving hugs and having that joining of gentle, loving touch is super important from the time they’re infants. And they don’t lose that as they grow up. Now, there’s a weird little time, kind of in puberty, where kids can be like, “I don’t want to. I don’t want to hug you. I don’t want to hug you.” That’s okay. They’ll come back around. But having that kind of physical love and physical expression of you are important. “I care about you. I love you.” And actually, hugs are very regulating. Heart to heart. And you’re breathing next to each other’s ears. And it’s a time of, again, coming together and softening in times of upset. And it’s also a way to express joy and excitement at being back together, giving good hugs. 

 

Heather  20:32

This wasn’t easy for my husband. I’m a hugger. I know how important – and I’m just a physical touch person. And if I am dysregulated myself, I’m so sensitive to physical touch that if I’m on the brink of tears and then someone expresses that touch and that compassion, I’ll lose it. But I just always have known that I wanted to be very loving and hug with my family. It takes me back to like, was it Danny Tanner, who was always like, “We hug in our family” on Full House, right? They were always huggers. And that’s kind of how we are in our house. And this wasn’t as easy for my husband, because his dad didn’t show that physical affection. And they were divorced. And he was out of the home by the time my husband was a teenager, young teenager, so it was just different. And that had to be something that he had to come into his own on. And it’s a “love language,” of course, physical affection is or touch. So that was less natural for him. But, man, he’s really gotten there. And our kids have just always hugged. Before they leave, they give a hug. They say goodbye…when they return. It’s really very lovely. 

 

Kristina  21:52

It’s lovely. It is. Grace is not as natural a hugger. And oh, I’m a hugger, so that’s hard. And so really listening to your child and finding out, how can I…

 

Heather

What are they more comfortable with?


Kristina

What are they more comfortable with. And how can I continue to express this kind of physical affection? Because what it does is, you know, in those first five years, the architecture of the brain is being built and nurturing touch increases the oxytocin receptors. So that’s brain development. That’s happening. And that nurturing physical touch allows that to take place. It’s really important. 

 

Heather

It is really important.

 

Kristina

At work, you know, when a child is distressed, many times I will say, “Would you like a hug?” And they’ll say, “Yeah.” And you give them a hug. And it’s better. Life is better after a hug.

 

Heather  22:49

I like to say to them, “Do you need a hug?” And then they know me well enough, they’ll be like, “I need a hug, Ms. Heather” because they know that question is coming. So they just let me know they need a hug. 

 

Kristina  23:03

So it’s something to pay attention to. Are you a hugger? Are you not? Do you hug a lot in your family? Do you not? And if not, how do you show that kind of physical, nurturing, gentle affection? 

 

Heather  23:16

Because you may not be a hugger yourself, but your child may be. And that’s a need that needs to be met.

 

Kristina  23:23

So pay attention. How much are you hugging? And then hug a little more.

 

Heather  23:29

Hey, listeners. We’re so grateful to be a part of your village. If these conversations and episodes are impactful to you, we deeply appreciate your support to continue doing the work that we love so much for such an amazing nonprofit organization. Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org, to make a tax deductible contribution. Thank you.

 

Kristina  23:55

So, the next thing that children need more of is the freedom to explore. And oftentimes, because we are in such a fast-paced, busy culture, we don’t allow for that freedom to explore. My daughter loved experimenting with all kinds of things. How did things smell? How did things feel? What might happen if I did this? 

 

Heather  24:23

What is the right consistency of slime? Your slime phase, girl, lasted longer than any slime phase I’ve ever known.

 

Kristina  24:32

Yes it did. And Grace struggled to find the right consistency. She did. 

 

Heather

And she was not pleased about it. 

 

Kristina

No. And so there are the times when I would come downstairs and it would literally be dripping off the edges of my dining room table. 

 

Heather  24:47

I remember when you had to move the slime lab to the basement. 

 

Kristina  24:50

Oh, my word. Because I just couldn’t handle it anymore. The slime was everywhere. But the point was Grace needed that freedom to explore. And so that did mean that we had a lot of slime in carpet and allowed for that freedom, right? Not to just to explore inside with what happens when you paint your body. Or how do you make the slime and make it work? I want to experiment with this recipe and with that recipe and doing different things. But also just exploring her world. So that’s, again, getting outside and having the opportunity. There’s no agenda. We’re just here to discover and explore. Something that we do at our schools is we’ll have days in “the beyond.” And “the beyond” is any area –  the meadow, the pond, the forest – that’s outside of the gate where our children play on their playscapes. And getting into “the beyond” allows children to just explore and create and discover. And that act ignites massive neural connections in the brain. Massive because they are problem- solving. They can let their imaginations run wild because there’s no agenda. And it increases their confidence.

 

Heather  26:08

It absolutely does. And I know for my kids, my own children, where we live, in our home and on our property, as they grew and they’re seeking more autonomy, being able to have that freedom, to go out a bit farther, to be at the edge, where we didn’t really go when we were younger, and to branch out, felt like, “Ooh, this is a big deal.” And they could stand a little taller. And they felt a bit more confident. And kids need that. So I remember looking out the window, and Zack and Luke had created some sort of rope pulley system. And Zack was pulling. And they had thrown it over quite a high branch. And Luke was being lifted into the air by this pulley system. But I mean, just think about all that that takes to do that. And they just loved it. As they got older, having that space to ram around and then just being able to go out a bit further.

 

Kristina  27:09

Oh, and you never knew, like when I would come to your house and I’d pull in, you never knew what kind of contraptions may have been developed and built. And I had no idea what they did, but those kids were out there exploring and creating and using their imaginations, and it was awesome. 

 

Heather

It was. Yes.

 

Kristina

Awesome. Yeah, it’s the confidence you see in kids at our preschools as they’re climbing trees and figuring out that they actually can do it. And it feels good to trust your body and to be able to assess, “Do I feel safe doing this? Do I not feel safe doing this?”And letting kids explore their own capabilities? And a lot of that is more easily done outside than in.

 

Heather  27:57

Absolutely. Let’s talk about our next item on the list, which is play time with parents. And this one can be tricky, because there’s the right amount of play time with parents and there’s the right amount of parental influence in play. So talk that through with us. What’s the right amount here?

 

Kristina  28:18

So even taking ten minutes to join with your child in play sets them up better for the whole day. And when we talk about joining them in their play, we want to think about one not interrupting the play, but coming alongside

 

Heather

And not directing the play…

 

Kristina

Not directing the play, but coming in alongside. And it does a number of different things. First of all, doing that allows the child to continue to use their imagination and to show their leadership. They’re trying to determine, “Am I capable? Am I competent?” And when you come in and don’t tell them, “Actually, this is how you use Playdoh,” or come in and start directing, it allows them to have those feelings of, “I’m leading, I’m guiding. I can do this.” And so we like to ask questions. When they ask, “How does this work?” And say back to them, “How do you think it works? What do you think that might do?” And allowing them to continue to explore their own ideas and coming up with their own solutions and suggestions and plans.

 

Heather  29:25

It’s so interesting to me that there are things from our generation, like a rotary telephone, for example, that young children have no idea what that is. They’ve oftentimes never seen one, and so they make it be whatever they want it to be. But then if someone moves in and says, “Oh, that’s not what that’s for. That’s a telephone.” They’re like, “This is how you use it.” And then all of a sudden, the young child can’t see it as anything but a telephone anymore. And so the wonder has been crushed because they were just thinking it was who knows what. And they were using it for play in the way that they had created it to be. But as soon as an adult says, “That’s not what that is. That’s a phone…” 

 

Kristina  30:11

“And this is how you use it.” It really limits their imagination.

 

Heather  30:16

Absolutely. And makes them feel like, “Oh, that was wrong. I did that wrong.” 

 

Kristina  30:21

And now I’m a little embarrassed, right? Which is not what we intend to ignite in our children. So it can get tricky as they get older. I’m in the midst of this now with my daughter. The things that interest her are not necessarily things that interest me, right? But I actually had to have a little talk with myself and say, “You will, Kristina, engage in the things that Grace is interested in, because doing so communicates to her I hold her in high regard and what she is interested in and finds joy in, I can also find joy in and enter into that joyful space.“ 

 

Heather  31:05

And it’s how we do enter into it that matters. Really, really matters, because they smell us coming.

Kristina

Oh boy.

 

Heather

If you’re just phoning it in?

 

Kristina

Right.

 

Heather

They know.

 

Kristina  31:18

Yes. So you guys, I’m going to use the example of My Little Pony. Because Grace has re entered that interest in that. And it has to do a lot with the music. She’s very interested in music and in the relationship aspects of that show. Okay, do I seriously care if it’s Pinkie Pie or if it’s Fluttershy, or if it’s any…I mean, whatever, right? But engaging in that with her allows us to spend really beautiful time together. And so that’s what a lot of play looks like for her. And then she’ll say things like, “Mom, if I was in that situation, how do you think I might respond?” And I might say back to her, “Well, how do you think you’d respond?” And we have these lovely conversations. Now my daughter who does not mince words, and I appreciate that about her, and sometimes that’s hard…Probably a year and a half ago, she had gotten really involved in this game. And it has so many characters, and the names of the characters and the powers of the characters and where they live, and all of this stuff. And she would try to talk to me about it. And I said to her – this is not a proud parenting moment – but I have said to her, like, “Girl, that’s like a foreign language to me. I don’t even get any of it.” And I said that a couple times when she tried to talk to me about it. And then my daughter, who shoots from the hip, said, “Mom, it actually really hurts my feelings when you say that. It’s not a foreign language. I’m trying to share with you these things.”

 

Heather  32:49

Which really was her saying, “You just don’t want to learn the language.” 

 

Kristina  32:52

Right. And so, it’s not important to you. Am I not important to you? 

 

Heather

Because they tell themselves those things

Kristina

They do. But when you’re like, 13 year-old schools, you and stuff like that, especially when you do what I do, like, “Yeah. You’re right.” So play time with your children. Play time together in what interests them, in the books that they’re reading and the things that they’re engaged in. 

 

Heather  33:18

Girl, I know more about horses than I ever thought I would care to know.

 

Kristina  33:22

You do. It’s impressive, actually. When you talk about it, I’m like, ‘Where did this come from?”

 

Heather  33:26

And I know a lot at this point. I still don’t know nearly as much as my daughter. But it’s also kind of nice for them to be the expert in something as our child. And to be able to have us in the role of learning. She knows what she’s talking about on this. And I don’t have to know everything all the time. I can let her be in that role and really marvel at her knowledge and confidence in that.

 

Kristina  33:52

And this interest in things that the people that we love are enjoying and are interested in is something that is important for us to do for the people we love. Period. I remember when I first started my relationship with my husband, I discovered that he was really into Star Trek. Guess who care not one iota about Star Trek? Moi. But because I loved him and because he loved Star Trek, I started watching Star Trek with him. And then was able to find things that I really enjoyed about it. So, we do it with the people we love, right? 

 

Heather  34:30

It’s so true. And we do those things sometimes even – I think about my husband, Travis and I, before we were married – I had no idea he was terrified of rollercoasters.

 

Kristina

Oh, Vince too.

 

Heather

I love rollercoasters.

 

Kristina

Me too.

 

Heather

And so we go to the theme park. And I’m like, “We gotta go on the biggest one.” Because why wouldn’t you, right? We’re here. We gotta do that early. Let’s do it early before all the lines get huge. And so we would go. And I think I still have the picture somewhere. It’s a picture of our marriage. Me? Hands in the air. Wave ‘em around like you just don’t care. Big smile on my face. He? White knuckle hanging onto the bar, looking like he needs to change his pants. 

 

Kristina  35:08

Yes. Yes. Well, I remember this when we were in Japan one time. Vince took me to some kind of amusement park. And he hadn’t shared with me that he didn’t like rollercoasters. I love rollercoasters. So we went on this thing, and I didn’t even know until later that he really really didn’t like them.

 

Heather  35:22

Oh he never fussed up either.

 

Kristina  35:26

No. But he knew that I loved them, so he went on it, and God bless him. I mean, that was a really sweet thing for him to do. He does not do that anymore, because now we know more about it. But showing interest and finding joy in the things that your child finds joy in and is excited about is just another way to love them. 

 

Heather

Absolutely.

 

Kristina

All right, so now we are to number seven. The last thing we want to talk about today regarding what children need more of in their lives, and it is something that the Bouwmans do really, really well. And actually, I grew up with a lot of this, and still have a lot of it in my life, and want to usher in more. Ooh, what is it? What is it? 

 

Heather

Laughter!

 

Kristina

Yeah baby.

 

Heather  36:16

Laughter is so fun and so good for everyone. And it’s just healthy. It lightens moods. It cuts tension. It’s a skill that you can teach your kids. It’s something that for us, just we laugh a lot in our home and outside of our home and with our kids. And it’s really important for children. It helps them relax. It does relieve tension. It gives their mental health a boost. It’s all the brain chemistry comes into play on this again, because it releases endorphins. When we’re laughing endorphins are released in our brain. And they are just saying to us, “Don’t be stressed. Just take this moment and have some fun and relax. Go ahead.” And that’s a really powerful thing in busy lives. I don’t think we do it enough. 

 

Kristina  37:09

No. Well, you’ve always said, you know, laugh or cry, you lean toward laughter. 

 

Heather

I do.

 

Kristina

And I think we talked about this way back in the beginning of our episodes, that I can falter and land on the side of taking myself way too seriously. And instead, ushering in the laughter is like so much of the time, it’s ridiculous. Whatever it is that I’m hoping to do, or I’m wanting to do, or I just did. It’s like, “Just laugh about it. Yeah, it’s okay.”

 

Heather  37:40

And it becomes this thing, at least in our house, as my kids have grown, there are just some things my husband and I have done to them to keep them a little humble, to just have them lighten up, where we drop them off somewhere, and then we’ll shout something, like, ‘We love you so much!”

 

Kristina  37:59

Yeah.

 

Heather  38:01

And they’re like, ah, but they just need to and then they walk in just kind of shaking their head and laughing. I have always done this thing. It’s probably a terrible idea, but I’ve done it to every one of my kids, and they all joke about how, “Well, yeah, we can jump in or out of a moving vehicle. Mom taught us that,” like, when she would go to pick us up, not when they were really little guys. This is when they’re bigger. They would be getting in the vehicle. I’d be like, and move up, oh yeah, it’s terrible. But they can get they can jump at a running pace in or out of a vehicle, if they ever have to, and like, and I’ll say to my husband, “I taught him that. I did that.”

Kristina

Skills.

 

Heather

Yeah. I remember Ava walking out of Target one time. And I’m picking her up by the door. And I do this to her, and she’s just looking at me and shaking her head, and she’s, I’m sure, embarrassed, right? Because she’s trying to get in the vehicle. And I keep pulling forward. And I remember this dad walking in just laughing so hard. And that’s not why I’m doing it. I’m doing it because this is what I do to my children on the regular. I did it to her the other day, dropping her off at the barn. She had to get the stuff out of the back. She’s trying to pull her boots, and her Carhartts. And I keep moving the vehicle forward. 

 

Kristina  39:17

I’m just so glad you don’t do it to me, because guess what?

 

Heather  39:21

My mother knows, because she’s been with me, and she’s like, “Don’t you dare.” And I’m like, “Well, now I have to,” like, “Now that you made that big deal out of it.” So it’s just those things that I know my kids will remember. They probably do drive them crazy. And it’s gonna pay back, right? They’re going to do this to me. I know they will when I’m old and frail and way less limber than they are now. But it’s those types of things that just kind of create your feel and your tradition.

 

Kristina  39:56

Yeah. I think open up your home to more laughter and your family to more laughter. You know, when we laugh together, we join. And when things are really tense, sometimes saying something just a little… 

 

Heather  40:10

Oh, my kids know. And have I ever told the story about Luke went through this phase where he would try to anticipate what you’re saying and then kind of like mime words back to you? And he did this one time in church. I looked over he was doing it to the pastor. That was like,”Not funny.” But it was funny. So, in those moments, you have to be like, “Dang it. They’re too funny.” And then you got to reel that back a little bit in. I would be one to kind of laugh in church, much to my husband’s dismay and chagrin and all of that. And sometimes he would laugh with me, because he just can’t help it. But it’s a good way to go through life. And it does just relax our bodies. It improves our mental health. It reminds our kids and us not to take everything so seriously. It’s okay. I’ve always been the person to be like “This feels really big, right now. Tomorrow it will feel less big.”

 

Kristina  41:18

Yes. And if I can laugh about it. Let’s laugh about it. 

 

Heather

Yes, we’ll get there faster. 

 

Kristina

Well, here’s another thing, which I find really interesting, partly because I like science and that kind of thing, but laughter actually increases-

 

Heather

Your life for one thing-

 

Kristina

Yeah. Well but your infection fighting antibiotic production increases when you laugh.  So laughter actually makes you healthier. 

 

Heather  41:41

It makes you healthier and you live longer. I mean, there’s real research to back that up. Like people that laugh more live longer. I don’t know what that means for me. I’m gonna be real old. Good luck, kids!

 

Kristina

And will still be laughing,

 

Heather  41:59

Still be hoppin’ in vehicles at 102

 

Kristina  42:04

I can picture it. And it’s not pretty.

 

Heather  42:08

No, it’s not.

 

Kristina  42:13

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  42:19

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey, until next time…

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina  42:30

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell,

 

Heather  42:41

The ODC Network is a nonprofit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  42:49

Since 2000 the ODC network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  43:02

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.



Episode 20: Body Safety

 

Body Safety: Introduction and Importance

  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of teaching children about consent, bodily autonomy, and body safety, especially in situations involving their health and well-being.
  • Kristina and Heather advise listeners to take care of themselves before diving into the topic, suggesting various self-care methods like reading show notes or taking walks.
  • Heather highlights the staggering statistics from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, noting that one in five girls and one in ten boys are sexually exploited before adulthood, with less than 35% of cases reported to authorities.
  • Heather goes on to point out that 90% of childhood sexual abuse occurs by someone known to the child, often a family member, and discusses the outdated concept of “stranger danger.”

 

“It’s really about raising our consciousness, right? That you don’t know you’re being groomed when you’re being groomed. So we need to be more aware of what that looks like, what it sounds like. So we’ve got to tune into it and be able to identify it. The other thing is that 60% of child sexual abuse victims never tell anyone. 60% that six out of 10 children never tell anyone. So open communication with our children is of paramount importance that they are always comfortable coming to us, because…what do children feel like when they maybe have been sexually abused? Who do they blame? Themselves…And it takes such bravery to be able to go to a parent. And it takes lots of conversations as parents to reassure them it is not your fault. You will not be in trouble. But it’s one of those things that has to be said and heard over and over and over and over. And it’s a conversation that begins and then grows and evolves over time. So, it’s just kind of this one big conversation that you just keep having over the years, and it evolves as we go…”

 

Understanding Grooming and Tricky People

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the use of the term “tricky people” instead of “stranger danger,” explaining that perpetrators often gain access to children through grooming and trickery.
  • Kristina emphasizes the importance of raising consciousness about grooming, as victims’ parents and caregivers often do not realize they are being groomed.
  • Heather mentions that 60% of child sexual abuse victims never tell anyone, highlighting the need for open communication with children.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of teaching children their name, address, and phone number, and the concept of privacy, starting from potty training.

 

“So teaching your child their name, address and your phone number are important because they need that information so that if they were in a situation where their ‘uh oh’ feeling was triggeredOr they’re separated from you…They need to be able to communicate and let others know who they are, and where they belong and who they belong to, and how to get a hold of that person. Absolutely another thing -and we started this when our kids were really, really young we sure did – teaching them that their private parts are private and they only belong to them…And it’s about teaching privacy.”

 

Role-Playing and Teaching Privacy vs. Secrecy

  • Kristina shares her experience of role-playing with her daughter, Grace, to teach her about body safety and the importance of using her “big voice” to say “no.”
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of making these conversations playful and empowering for children.
  • Kristina talks about the importance of not keeping secrets in the home, as secrets can be a “red flag” for potential abuse.
  • Heather emphasizes the importance of teaching children to trust their gut feelings and to come to their parents if they feel uncomfortable.

 

“So I love the idea of ‘tricky people,’ because I had kids that wanted to be helpers, and I could so easily see them falling into that trap. So for me, it was really powerful learning. And so it was me sitting down and my husband sitting down with our kids and saying, ‘So tricky people are people who try to trick you. They might try to get you in their vehicle. Or they might ask you for help. They might just try to hang out with you when mom and dad aren’t around. Or they might try to invite you in to do something that you know you shouldn’t be doing. Or provide you with something you know you shouldn’t have. Those are the actions of tricky people, and sometimes they try to trick us too. And so being able to say to our kids, “No adult that you do not know should come to you and ask you for help. And if they do, you need to find your parent immediately.” I would also teach them to never go anywhere or take anything from someone they didn’t know, no matter what they say.”

 

“And so teaching our kids, that ‘uh oh’ feeling…and to trust that instinct. And that we stand by them in that and we don’t say, ‘You’re fine, it’s fine. He would never…She would never…They love you. They would never do anything to you.’ It’s being able to say, ‘Tell me more about

that.’”

 

Tricky People and Community Awareness

  • Heather explains the concept of “tricky people” in further detail, using specific examples of how they might try to trick children into doing things they shouldn’t.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of teaching children to ask permission before going anywhere or getting into a vehicle with anyone.
  • Heather shares a personal story about her daughter Ava feeling uncomfortable with a man at a pool, and how she handled the situation by confronting the man and demonstrating to her daughter that she was an ally.
  • Heather shares the importance of teaching kids not to wait until harm has been done to support someone who is reporting an “uh oh” feeling.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the need to be present and engaged as parents, and not being “polite” in the face of discomfort.

 

“We need to talk about grooming…This is a behavior that sex offenders are very, very good at. And they are very charming. And they gain access to our children through us. Because they groom our child and they groom us as well, which is a scary thing to even think about. So let’s talk about what that looks like and what some of those ‘red flags’ might be. And really it’s anyone who is seeking access to your child and privacy. It’s those two things…And anybody who is seeking that really should make us question, ‘Huh. Why?’”

 

“Are there really lovely people that pay it forward by watching our kids occasionally? Absolutely. And that’s a beautiful thing. Are there other people that want access and privacy with our child when we’re not there? Also true…we really want to pay attention to who’s paying attention to our children.”

 

Grooming and Access to Children

  • Heather discusses the behavior of sex offenders, who often groom both children and parents, and the importance of being aware of “red flags.”
  • Kristina and Heather talk about the importance of paying attention to who is paying attention to our children and the need to question any behavior that raises concerns.
  • Heather shares an example of a parent pressuring her to allow a sleepover, and how she handled the situation by clearly stating she was not comfortable with it.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of setting boundaries and being confident in our decisions to protect our children.

“So if a child discloses, it’s really important for us to say there are local agencies that you tap into. You want to affirm your child’s bravery and their courage and align with them and say that they’ve done the right thing and that you will help them. And then help might be you go to your local Children’s Advocacy Center. You make the phone call. You set up an appointment. Because there are professionals that do this and do it so well. And they really mitigate what could be a real scary situation and response. And we want to let them do that work…Because they’re trained to do that. First of all, if your child discloses something to you, it’s perfectly normal to feel completely devastated…No parent wants to hear this ever, ever. And yet we need to, just like you said, receive that with assuring them that we love them no matter what, that we are so proud of them. That it is not their fault…”

 

“And it can be tempting to want to questionReally, what we need to do is listen…It’s important for us to remember, as adults, we lower our anxiety by talking about things. But talking about things for kids and peppering with questions and going back to it raises their anxiety. It’s very different for them than it is for us. And the other thing to remember is we have our adult cognitions. We have our adult knowledge…It’s not to say our children aren’t accurate in these moments, but it is a caution to say: don’t go too far down any road. Leave that to the professionals who are skilled in doing that work. Because as our heart rate goes up, as our panic goes up, our kids feel that, and they know us well enough to know that’s what’s happening. And they may clam up. And they may decide “my parent can’t handle it. I can’t tell them. They can’t handle it…We need to reassure them it is our job to keep them safe and that, again, we love them…”

 

Handling Disclosures and Seeking Help

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of reacting calmly and reassuringly if a child discloses abuse, emphasizing the need to affirm the child’s bravery and reassure them that it is not their fault.
  • Heather mentions the importance of involving local agencies like Children’s Advocacy Centers, which are trained to handle such situations.
  • Kristina and Heather talk about the importance of not diminishing a child’s disclosure and the need to believe them, even if it involves someone the parent knows.
  • Heather shares a personal story about a parent who reached out to her, thanking her for the information she provided in parenting classes, which helped her child disclose abuse.

 

“…because children…They want to believe that they’re at fault for everything: parents’ divorces, being touched in a way that’s inappropriate, fights that occur between siblings or parents. They’re so egocentric. They make everything about them. So they just naturally go to ‘this was my fault.’ It is not their fault. It’s never their fault.”

 

“Let’s all get really comfortable with saying that directly, clearly, with some intensity to it: ‘I’m just not comfortable with that.’ Period. No need to explain. No need to justify…And it’s not ‘I don’t know if I’m comfortable with that,’ because that sounds like hope, right? ‘I’m not comfortable with that.’”

 

Practical Tips and Final Thoughts

  • Kristina and Heather provide practical tips for parents, such as not putting children’s names on backpacks and being aware of who is paying attention to their children.
  • Heather emphasizes the importance of being comfortable saying “no” without guilt, and the need to practice these conversations with other parents.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of empowering children with skills they will use their whole life.
  • Heather encourages parents to educate themselves, talk to their village, and prepare themselves and their children for potential situations, emphasizing the importance of handling things together.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Body Safety:

Pattie Fitzgerald  – Safely Ever After

 

How Today’s Parents Say Their Approach to Parenting Does – or Doesn’t – Match Their Own Upbringing

 

Mindfulness of Schedules/Benefits of Down Time

 

Impact of Overscheduling on Skill Development

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

In prior episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In prior episodes, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

 

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 20: Body Safety

 

Kristina  00:00

We have a really important conversation lined up for you today. We’re going to be discussing something that unfortunately doesn’t get talked about enough: teaching our kids about body safety. 

 

Heather  00:12

That’s right. We’ll be sharing some important statistics from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Sadly, one in five girls and one in 10 boys will experience sexual abuse before they reach adulthood. Even more concerning, less than 35% of those cases are ever reported. 

 

Kristina  00:31

It’s heartbreaking. But it’s also a wake up call. So in today’s episode, we’ll be talking about how we can empower kids to protect themselves, how we can teach them about tricky people privacy and the importance of knowing their own personal information, like their name, address and phone number. 

 

Heather  00:50

We’ll also discuss the dangers of grooming and why it’s so crucial that we help kids understand the concept of not keeping secrets. We’ll wrap up with some practical advice on how to respond if a child comes to you with a disclosure of abuse.

 

Kristina  01:05

This conversation is so important, not just for parents, but for anyone who cares about children’s well being. 

 

Heather  01:13

Let’s dive in and explore how we can all play a part in building open lines of communication and keeping kids safe. Together, we can make a real difference.

 

Heather  01:27

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  01:30

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  01:43

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  02:05

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are you ready?

 

Kristina and Heather  02:12

Let’s hit the trails. 

 

Heather

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing non-profit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting pre students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:31

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

 

Heather  02:38

Please visit www.ODCnetwork.org, to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  02:48

We’ve talked about teaching our kids consent, and that their “no” means “no.” Their “yes” means “yes.” And that they have bodily autonomy, except in situations that involve their health and their well being. So today we’re talking about body safety, and this is not an easy topic to talk about. 

 

Heather

It can be very triggering. 

 

Kristina

It can be. And what I want us to do is really take care of ourselves. And we each know what that means for us. And if it means reading the show notes, looking at the transcript first, yeah, before really diving in, yeah, take care of yourselves.

 

Heather  03:29

Maybe you’re listening and you go for a walk, to your favorite spot that brings you peace and calm, or

 

Kristina  03:36

you listen in chunks, whatever you need to do to take care of yourself, because it’s too important a topic to not cover. So we’re diving in today. 

 

Heather  03:46

Here we go. Let’s talk about why this topic is so important to us. As moms, we wanted to keep our kids safe. We wanted to figure out how we could make sure that they had an understanding of who could touch them, how they could be touched, what they needed to watch out for. My kids are all helpers. And I didn’t want them to fall into a bit of a trap with somebody who was tricky and maybe didn’t have their best intentions. So the current statistics are a bit staggering. 

 

Kristina

Yeah, they make you catch your breath. 

 

Heather

They absolutely do. So let’s just jump right in. According to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, the statistics show that one in five girls and one in 10 boys are sexually exploited before they reach adulthood. And yet, less than 35% of those are reported to authorities. That is way too many not being reported. 

 

Kristina  04:55

I’m covered in like goosebumps, and it’s very troubling. 

 

Heather  05:00

It is very, very troubling. Even more daunting is that 90% of childhood sexual abuse occurs by someone who’s very well known to the child, oftentimes someone in our own family.

 

Kristina  05:16

You know, and I grew up-

 

Heather

“Stranger danger.” 

 

Kristina

Stranger danger. Yes, you were always–

 

Heather  05:22

Because we were all over the neighborhood, on our bikes in a pack, so you were looking for the stranger. 

 

Kristina  05:31

I think as parents, we tend to default still to that it’s the stranger who is dangerous, yeah?

 

Heather  05:38

And we’re going to think about that a bit differently and talk instead about “tricky people” and what that means, and using that language.

 

Kristina  05:47

I love the difference in saying, you know, stranger danger, and instead really teaching our children and ourselves to tune in to that feeling we get when we’re around tricky people and not dismiss it.

 

Heather  06:01

Trust that gut and that we teach our kids to do that, absolutely. And the majority of childhood sexual abuse cases, not only are children groomed, so are parents. So we’re gonna take a really deep look at what does grooming look like. How can we be aware that it might be happening to us? What are some things that we would want to really clue into, and what might be a red flag?

 

Kristina  06:28

Yeah, it’s really about raising our consciousness, right? That you don’t know you’re being groomed when you’re being groomed. So we need to be more aware of what that looks like, what it sounds like. So we’re going to really explore-

 

Heather  06:45

Tune into it and be able to identify it. The other thing is that 60% of child sexual abuse victims never tell anyone. 60% that six out of 10 children never tell anyone. So open communication with our children is of paramount importance that they are always comfortable coming to us, because unfortunately, Kristina, what do children feel like when they maybe have been sexually abused? Who do they blame?

 

Kristina

Themselves.

 

Heather

They absolutely do. And it takes such bravery to be able to go to a parent. And it takes lots of conversations as parents to reassure them it is not your fault. You will not be in trouble. But it’s one of those things that has to be said and heard over and over and over and over. And it’s a conversation that begins and then grows and evolves over time. So it’s just kind of this one big conversation that you just keep having over the years, and it evolves as we go.

 

Kristina  08:00

So teaching your child their name, address and your phone number are important because they need that information so that if they were in a situation where their “uh oh” feeling was triggered

 

Heather  08:14

Or they’re separated from you.

 

Kristina  08:16

They need to be able to communicate and let others know who they are-

 

Heather

And where they belong- 

 

Kristina

And who they belong to-

 

Heather

And how to get a hold of that person.

 

Kristina

Absolutely. Another thing -and we started this when our kids were really, really young – teaching them that their private parts are private and they only belong to them.

 

Heather  08:36

And it’s about teaching privacy. I remember when my kids were potty training, teaching them like, it’s okay to have privacy. Close the door, right? Because sometimes kids, they’re in a hurry and they want to get back out to play and the door is wide, I’m like, “Oh, let’s have some privacy.” And so then they would kind of be empowered by the word privacy. And yeah, it would be, “I need privacy!” But it’s a great way to begin the conversation. And they say it so cute. And then they begin to understand what privacy really means. “Oh, I get to be by myself. I get to have this moment.”

 

Kristina  09:13

Well, and that leads me right into remembering all the role playing that I did with Grace when she was little, and we did a lot of it, like at tubby time, when she was having a bath. And we would role play all kinds of things. And I, as she got older, would say things like, “You know, what happens if somebody touches you in a private part or touches you-

 

Heather  09:37

This is the best way to teach the “big voice.”

 

Kristina  09:40

Yes. And that you can say “no” and say it fiercely. And as she got older, I’d start talking about things like, even if somebody says to you, “I’m gonna hurt your parents. Your parents won’t love you. I’m gonna do these really bad things.” That’s not true, and how do you use your big voice? So, she got good at that big voice.

 

Heather  10:06

Would you remember both of us saying to our girls? Yeah, never my boys. I have two boys. I never had to say this to my boys, but I had to say this to my daughter, and I know you did too, “Oh, honey, you’re confused. Mommy is friend. I am not foe. That voice is fierce and it is wonderful, and you’re gonna need it someday. Tuck it in your back pocket. Not mommy.” And this is the like, “Pull that voice out, girl. Pull that voice out. This is the moment to use your fierce voice.”

 

Kristina  10:43

And in some ways, we made it playful, right? Grace would be like-

 

Heather  10:47

Well, it’s practice, yeah. And for kids, we know they learn through play.

 

Kristina  10:51

Right. So it doesn’t need to be “Dun, dun, dun! Here you go. Somebody’s coming up to you. And they’re asking this. And they’re doing this!”

 

Heather  10:59

You’re scaring me.

 

Kristina  11:03

But we do it all kinds of different ways, right? But it’s that empowering her to use her voice. I remember her saying “no” to me. I mean, she said “no” to me a lot. But when she was little, saying “no” to me about something, and Vince saying to her, “You do not say ‘no’ to your mother.” And I said, “Oh, she may say ‘no’ to me. Doesn’t mean she’s going to get what she wants, but she gets to use that voice. And there’s no exception. She can use that voice without exception.” Because, again, if we’re thinking about the fact that –

 

Heather

it’s zooming out – 

 

Kristina  

11:44

Well and the vast majority of times that children harmed, it’s by somebody they know. And they have to be confident and brave in saying that voice and trusting that “uh oh” feeling.

 

Kristina  11:52

So the other thing that we did, I know in our homes, was that we don’t keep secrets in our home. No secrets, no dares.

 

Heather  11:59

We didn’t do secrets. I’m guilty of the dares. 

 

Kristina

Oh, I know you double down man

 

Heather

I double dog dare you. Yeah, probably not sage parenting advice…

 

Kristina  12:11

But we just didn’t do dares. 

 

Heather

Probably a nice boundary. 

 

Kristina

So there are surprises, but you don’t keep secrets.

 

Heather  12:21

Absolutely secrets. Talk about the intention behind secrets and why your family didn’t keep secrets. Yeah,

 

Kristina  12:28

It’s because too often children, especially if they’re in a situation where something’s happening that shouldn’t be happening, the perpetrator will say, “this is just between you and me. It’s our little secret. our little secret.” And I wanted my child to hear the word secret and be like, Red Alert! Red Alert. Red alert. I need to tell my parents. I’m telling my parents.

 

Heather  12:50

S.O.S! And even at school when the little groups begin to form and it’s like, “Oh, let’s have a secret, and let’s not…” It’s just they don’t, oftentimes, come from a place of loving kindness. So saying, “You know, we do surprises, but we don’t do secrets.”

 

Kristina  13:09

That was really important for us to make sure that Grace grew up knowing that secrets were not something that we would participate in. And that if somebody asked her to keep a secret, she was to come directly to me

 

Heather

Immediately.

 

Kristina

Now that doesn’t mean that she doesn’t keep some things private. And the older our kids get, the more things that they will keep private. 

 

Heather

Or that we can’t share in a surprise, right? 

 

Kristina

Oh yeah, that’s super fun, but we just don’t-

 

Heather

We call it a surprise. We don’t call it a secret. Nice. 

 

Kristina

So I want, Heather, you to explain, because I think you do a lovely job of this about what “tricky people,” the “tricky people.”

 

Heather  13:44

Yeah, this is I- this was something I read years and years ago that resonated with me so much. And it’s the work of Pattie Fitzgerald from Safely Ever After. She’s authored books. We have talked about this in our parenting classes. The first time I read her work, it was this notion of: strangers aren’t the danger, right? And we grew up in the “stranger danger” 80s, right? And it was the first time I had ever heard it told like this, that really the concept is: no adult needs to go to a child for help. That’s a tricky person. And they are indeed tricky. And they’re good at what they do, because these perpetrators of children do not have a certain look about them. You can’t spot them, and it would be so much easier if we could. But it’s not about what someone looks like, it’s not about what they wear. It’s more about how they act around you, how they act around your child, how much access they’re trying to. Gain to your child. And just how they behave around them in general. So I love the idea of tricky people, because I had kids that wanted to be helpers, and I could so easily see them falling into that trap. So for me, it was really powerful learning. And so it was me sitting down and my husband sitting down with our kids and saying, “So tricky people are people who try to trick you. They might try to get you in their vehicle, or they might ask you for help. They might just try to hang out with you when mom and dad aren’t around, or they might try to invite you in to do something that you know you shouldn’t be doing, or provide you with something you know you shouldn’t have. Those are the actions of tricky people, and sometimes they try to trick us too, and so being able to say to our kids, no adult needs to come to a child now, grandparents, yes, help your grandparents, but that’s different, right? No adult that you do not know should come to you and ask you for help, right? And if they do, you need to find your parent immediately.” I would also teach them to never go anywhere or take anything from someone they didn’t know, no matter what they say, right? Because that’s tricky again. “Oh, your mom wanted me to pick you up.” “Your mom said you should come with-“ “I’m gonna bring you to your mom,” or “I’m gonna bring you to your dad.” 

 

Kristina  16:38

Yeah, you know, I live in an incredible neighborhood. It is a place where we all know each other. We love each other. We support each other. We, you know, commiserate about how difficult it can be sometimes raising children. We celebrate each other’s growth and the children as they grow up. It’s lovely. Grace, when she was very little, like, four years old. If we were outside and I was gardening or something, she would just walk into the neighbor’s house, not just one neighbor, multiple neighbors, you know, it’d be like, o”Oh yeah. Grace visited us today.” I’d realize that she was gone, obviously. But we had to talk about how she always had to ask permission before she would go anywhere.

 

Heather  17:21

-Go anywhere or get in a vehicle with anyone, we must ask permission, absolutely. And it goes back to also because they’re not strangers. Oftentimes they are community members. It is the person who lives two doors down, or it is someone in our family. When we’re at a family gathering, there might be someone who you notice is just, huh, they’re way too old to always be hanging out with the kids. Why is that? 30-something year old hanging out with the kids and not with the adults? Those are things that would be a red flag, right? And so teaching our kids, that “uh oh” feeling, which we’ve talked about a bit before, and to trust that instinct and that we stand by them in that and we don’t say, “You’re fine, it’s fine. He would never, she would never. They love you. They would never do anything to you. It’s being able to say, tell me more about that.

 

Kristina  18:19

Well, do you remember when we were up north vacationing together, and Ava and Grace were in the pool where they had walked down?

 

Heather  18:26

Yes, right from the condo. And they had done that together. But had an interaction that made Ava’s “uh oh” feeling engaged. And I had watched them from the balcony, and she was motioning to me, her discomfort, to which I was like, “We gotta go. Something’s happening. I don’t know what it is.” So we get down there. Grace is like swimming like a dog paddle andthe breaststroke, in the hot tub. I can see him as plain as day. And Ava is like fear and trepidation on her face. And so I go to her and I say, “What is the matter?” And she’s like “That man. That man right there. Don’t look right now. He’s looking right at us. That man right there. He followed us down, and made me very uncomfortable.” And then when we got down here, he went up there. And now he’s on his balcony. And he’s just been watching us. Yeah, and Grace was, you know, bobbing up and bobbing down, and none the wiser. And Ava is beside her. She’s really uncomfortable. She’s really uncomfortable. And I say to her, “I’m here. I’ve got this. I’m gonna turn and I’m gonna address the man.” And she’s like, “Okay, Mom.” In my swimsuit. 180. Yep. Eyeballs to eyeballs. On this man 

 

Kristina  19:57

And your hands on your hips.You assumed, like the superhero.

 

Heather  20:01

Oh, that said, “Don’t make me come up there. Because I will. And if I do, it’s not gonna be pretty. Don’t you, sir, make my eight year old daughter uncomfortable.” And what did he do? Do you remember?

 

Kristina  20:21

Oh, he went inside.

 

Heather  20:24

He did.

 

Kristina  20:26

Which is another great thing to point out. In that moment, you were demonstrated that-

 

Heather  20:31

People who are guilty of nothing do not turn about and go inside. No. I just want to say that, right?

 

Kristina  20:36

And you were demonstrating that you were a very involved, present parent to Ava. And this man. I was going to call him a “gentleman,” but he was not behaving like a gentleman. And that’s important, right, that you’re a parent who showed up. Who was engaged. Who was no way, not today, not my kid. Yep, we don’t have to be concerned about being polite, being nice, any of those things. 

 

Heather  21:03

And in that moment, Ava knew I’m an ally. Yes, I believe her. I didn’t say to her, “Well, honey, did he do anything?”

 

Kristina

Well, remember the boys? 

 

Heather

Yes, after when she was telling this, my boys were like, “Well, what did he do to you? He didn’t actually do anything to you.” And so it took a lot of conversation to be able to say, “We do not wait until harm has been done. Right? You listen to your sister and you trust and you move and you support and you align. But in that moment, they needed to very specifically be taught: we do not wait for harm to occur. And when your little sister is communicating her distress, you move in and support. Or your mama gonna come for you too. 

 

Kristina  22:00

That’s right. And they better know it.

 

Heather

That’s right,

 

Kristina  22:18

So we don’t need to be polite in the face of that behavior that makes us uncomfortable. And we need to be having conversations with our children right along the way. We don’t wait. And this is so hard, right? Because we don’t want to believe something could happen to our child. We just don’t even want to go there. But having the conversations about, “has anybody made you feel uncomfortable?” And really keeping that dialog going? Not incessantly, right? You don’t want to be these, you know, investigators like “who touched you?” 

 

Heather  22:55

Talk to them about Grace and the dentist, about how you taught her who had access to her body, and in what company? 

 

Kristina  23:04

Yep. So that was another thing we talked about at bath time. We would talk about, you know, what are your private parts? Her whole body is hers, right? Bodily autonomy. She gets to decide who’s going to touch her body, not just her private parts. And that there were some people, in some circumstances, that even if she wasn’t giving her consent because of her safety and her health and her well-being, that there are people like her doctors with us, present with us, being her parents and while she was getting a bath, right? So there was her grandmother, who would bathe her sometimes. We were with another doctor, and that doctor had to examine her and ask consent-

 

Heather  23:47

As they should-

 

Kristina  23:49

As they should. And so he asked consent. And then I said, “because this is for your health and I am here, this is safe, right for him to do.” So then the doctor said to her, “So who can touch you, or who can look at you in these places?” And she said, “My mommy, my daddy, my oma…and the dentist.” 

 

She said “the dentist” 

 

and we refer to him as “doctor.” Yes, it is first name, right? So you’re like, oh my gosh, we gotta roll that. Back-

 

Heather  24:23

I need to follow up on that one. 

 

Kristina  24:26

Not the dentist. Not the dentist. We have a wonderful dentist, by the way. But I should have clarified the doctor.

 

Heather  24:33

She got because you said the doctor. And you take her to the dentist. So she’s in the presence of a doctor, and you’re there-

 

Kristina  24:41

Exactly. So I had taught her those things, and she knew them very well. Other than the confusion about the dentist, it’s important to remember. I think we can forget this. Young children, developmentally, they are curious, right? They’re curious about their body. They’re curious about others bodies. That’s developmentally appropriate. You know, a four year old isn’t assaulting somebody else, no. Now, if there are more than a couple years difference in age, that can be a problem. Playing doctor when you’re younger is a really normal part of growing up and discovering who you are. However, if a 12 year old is playing doctor with a six year old, that’s a problem. Yes. So just because a child is exploring and discovering, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s something that you have to have a big intervention about, unless there’s, you know, this big age discrepancy.

 

Heather  25:43

We need to talk about grooming. 

 

Kristina

Yes, we do. 

 

Heather

This is a behavior that sex offenders are very, very good at. And they are very charming. And they gain access to our children through us. Because they groom our child and they groom us as well, which is a scary thing to even think about. So let’s talk about what that looks like and what some of those red flags might be. And really it’s anyone who is seeking access to your child and privacy. It’s those two things. They want access to your child and they want privacy. And anybody who is seeking that really should make us question, “Huh? Why?” Because, really, if someone is offering to babysit frequently, “Oh, you go out. You have a night out. I’m happy to…” Nobody really is that happy to watch the children. Like there’s an intent there, perhaps, that we need to decide what that’s about. Are there really lovely people that pay it forward by watching our kids occasionally? Absolutely. And that’s a beautiful thing. Are there other people that want access and privacy with our child when we’re not there? Also true. So, Kristina, we really want to pay attention to who’s paying attention to our children. Yep, and there are so many wonderful people in the world that are helpers and that just love kids. You and I, we love children. We would never do anything to harm a child or to make them feel uncomfortable. However, we also are pretty well versed in how to help parents feel comfortable when we’re with their children as well, and that all parents should really think about that. And the access to and the privacy are the things to really go back to and to be able to say, “Oh, no. I’m not comfortable with you taking my child one on one. I’ll come with.” And if they say, “No, no, no. You can do that…” that we chase that and say “No, actually, if that is raising our “uh oh”, and it should, it should raise our “uh oh,” because access and privacy and they’re not wanting you there, right? That should be the flag: access and privacy, they’re the two main things that should make that flag go high. We’re waving it high, sky high.

 

Kristina  28:18

Well, and as the adults, right? We can teach our children their name and their phone number, and we can teach them about tricky people, and we can do all of those things, but we are the grown ups.

 

Heather  28:37

And we have to stop and ask ourselves, “Does this make sense? Yeah, it doesn’t feel right, right? Does it make sense?” And we have to trust our answer in that. Another thing that we really want to clue in too is if someone is using guilt tactics. 

 

Kristina

Oh, major red flag.

 

Heather

I’ve had this with my own daughter. Ava, was about 11 years old, had a friend who was constantly “Can you have a sleepover?” We just didn’t do them. Yeah, it’s, I’m sure, a byproduct of the work that we’ve done, right? Stories that we’ve heard. People do them, and they may be very fine. We’re gonna make them safer, hopefully, by having this conversation. You’ll know some of the red flags. This parent came over and said, “Please, why can’t they have a sleepover? Why?”

 

Kristina  29:32

Ava’s friend’s dad.

 

Heather  29:35

Dad challenging me and almost guilting me into not having her go over there. And it felt all sorts of wrong. And Ava was kind of looking at me like, “I don’t want to.” Like her “uh oh” feeling was going crazy. My “uh oh” feeling was going crazy and was verging on anger. And finally, I just had to say, “We don’t do sleepovers period.” And it was a big fat silent “period.” We don’t do sleepovers. It was almost like I had to “ask and answer” him.

 

Kristina  30:14

Yes, you did. Because he kept at it.

 

Heather  30:18

Yes. And that is the piece that we have to stop and go, “What in the world?” As I think of my husband, he would never be motivated to challenge a child’s parent in that way. He will not even drive Ava’s friends home by himself. I mean, he thinks of these things, probably because he’s married to me, your husband probably does as well, right? But these are things we all should be thinking about to keep kids safer.

 

Kristina  30:46

And what you just said about Travis, right? Not driving Ava’s friends home, you know, alone, right? That’s the kind of thing that we as the adults need to be doing, right? 

 

Heather  30:58

So that, well, it protects the child and it protects us.

 

Kristina  31:00

Yep, our behavior is above reproach. That’s a two-way street. Yep. And so we need to think about those things. Because, although it maybe would be more convenient or something else, it’s not setting up the situation for everyone to feel safe, right? So when we think about grooming, and we think about access and privacy, and if an individual is just paying a lot of special attention to our particular child, or a child, we need to be asking ourselves: does that make sense? And you had said that before, does that make sense? And clueing into our “uh oh” feeling. The other thing we need to pay attention to is if our child says, “I don’t want to have that babysitter anymore.” That’s a big one.

 

Heather  31:50

Oh, we listen that.

 

Kristina  31:53

Or “I don’t want to play soccer anymore.”

 

Heather  31:57

Or “I don’t want to sit on Uncle so and so’s lap.” 

 

Kristina  32:03

Yes. And this is something that’s so hard to talk about, right?

 

Heather  32:08

But it’s so good that we’re talking about it. We need to pull the curtain back on it, and get to a place where we have more consent in our world, yes, where we have more safety in our world and where we have a much higher regard for one another’s bodies,

 

Kristina  32:26

It’s important, right? To know the people that your child is hanging out with, so volunteer at school-

 

Heather  32:34

Of any age. Yeah, because when they get older, if there are adults that are providing things to them to want them to have to be at their place…Again, you go back to access and privacy. Why do they always want to be at this older person’s place? Chase that “why.” Fly the red flag.

 

Kristina  32:56

I love that. We don’t intend to have anybody become paranoid or alarmist, right? Like there’s danger everywhere. Be aware. Don’t be paranoid. There are many, many beautiful people in this world, and there are also many people that harm children.

 

Heather  33:16

Two weeks ago, I had a parent reach out to me that has come to our parenting classes and sent me a text and said, “Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for what you taught me in your classes.” She has a three year old in care who reported that someone made her feel uncomfortable with how she’s handling her body.

 

Kristina  33:46

That’s what we’re talking about, right? No parent ever wants to hear it. Ever. It’s devastating to think. 

 

Heather  33:53

Way more devastating is for that child to become four, yeah and become five-

 

Kristina  33:58

And have never said anything.

 

Heather  34:00

Have never said anything. Had perhaps something continued to happen. And to have to carry that.

 

Kristina  34:08

Communicating to our children that it is never, ever their fault, when somebody interacts with them, touches them in a way that they are not because children do that.

 

Heather  34:21

They want to believe that they’re at fault for everything: parents’ divorces, being touched in a way that’s inappropriate, fights that occur between siblings or parents. They’re so egocentric. They make everything about them. So they just naturally go to “this was my fault.” It is not their fault, never their fault.

 

Kristina  34:43

So what a tragic thing to hear from that parent, right? And yet, I really hope that she felt empowered by having had these conversations with her child, having given her child the sense of safety and agency that she could come and report that

 

Heather  35:09

She had clearly done the beautiful groundwork to have that child say, “I’m not comfortable there. I’m not comfortable with this.”

 

Kristina  35:18

You know, something else that is all too common. You know, there are these darling, like backpacks and things like that, that have children’s names.

 

Heather  35:26

Get them monogrammed right? Don’t put their whole name on it, right? It would way too easy to like, “Hey, little Kristina, yeah, your mommy. I know your mom. I know your mom, sweetie. I’m gonna bring you to her. She asked me to come pick you up.” “Oh, well, they knew my name.” No. Right?

 

Kristina  35:45

So don’t put names on things. Now, you have to label their jacket right? Inside. Not on the outside. Things like that. Their water bottle as they’re headed off to school. That’s fine. But we don’t advertise a child’s name to everyone. It’s just not as safe. So if you need to put something on that backpack, you can put “explorer” or “adventurer,” whatever, but not their name. That’s just a little concrete thing to remember when you’re out. Because, boy, they’re darling, but it’s not good. 

 

Heather  36:20

Let’s talk about what we say. And I guess we can go back to the example of the dad that was really kind of pressuring me. And thought that that was going to work, that I could just say to him, “I’m not comfortable with that.” Right? “I’m just not comfortable with that. We don’t do sleep overs, so I’m just not comfortable with that.” Let’s all get really comfortable with saying that directly, clearly, with some intensity to it. I’m just not comfortable with that

 

Kristina  36:57

period. No need to explain, no need to justify

 

Heather  37:01

and it’s not. I don’t know if I’m comfortable with that, because that sounds like hope, right? “I’m not comfortable with that.”

 

Kristina  37:08

Did that parent ever ask for another sleepover? 

 

Heather

No.

 

Kristina

Message received. 

 

Heather  37:16

And here’s the thing: I don’t know, what happens in someone else’s home, behind their closed doors. We want to make sure our anxiety is under control. We want to make sure that we have reconciled within ourselves. We have practiced. Go to your village. Practice with one another, having this conversation. Go for a walk in nature, right? All of those endorphins. Let that bring calm. Let that bring our mood up in the midst of a challenging topic. If we practice, we’ll be more confident. What we don’t want to do is go in with a face of uncertainty and a face of “Oh, this is something that should scare us.” No. We want to be the “captain of the ship” on this. We want to be certain. The voice of certainty. The voice of security. The voice of “you’ve got this. I will teach you. I will teach you.”

 

Kristina  38:21

Yeah, we don’t want to use scare tactics. We don’t want to have children flooded with anxiety over this. We are empowering them with skills they will use their whole life. And we are not just talking about girls. No, we we’ve

 

Heather  38:36

talked about our girls because you have Grace and I have Ava my youngest. But this was the same thing for my boys, the same exact conversations: How do you stay safe? How do you not fall into the trap of a tricky person? How do you recognize your “uh oh” feeling? What do you do when you feel it? How do you communicate that you need help?

 

Kristina  39:00

Because it’s not just boys or girls, it’s not just men or women, it’s all of us that we are here to support each other. And we are also here to honor and respect our feeling, our children’s feeling, and move forward with that confidence to say “You might be a perfectly nice person. I’m saying no.” I would way rather err on the side of saying “no” and potentially offending an adult, than entering a situation where I don’t feel good about it.

 

Heather  39:37

I think it’s important that we talk about, what if our child comes to us and discloses something? It’s the moment to breathe big time. And it’s the moment to say, “You are so brave, so brave. And I am so glad you came to me. We are in this together. I’m so proud of you. You belong to me. I belong to you. The same team. This is not your fault. We’ll figure this out, right?”

 

Kristina  40:09

If your child discloses to you and shares that they were harmed by somebody, maybe it was somebody at your church, maybe it was a coach from a team, maybe it was somebody in your own family, you never want to diminish that and say, “Oh, but they would never hurt they would never hurt you. No, they love you.” Nope. It’s a time to really support that child. Believe them. Children do not make these things up. 

 

Heather  40:36

And sometimes those things come out of our mouth when we know they shouldn’t. So if it does, you can take it back and be like, “You know that came out, and that is not what I meant.” I still do that with kids that we work with. I hear something come out of my mouth. I’m like, that’s not what I meant to say. I didn’t think that was gonna sound that way, right? Not about this topic, right? But anything, yeah, if something comes out of our mouth that we think, “Oh, yikes. That is not what I intended to say.” Just take responsibility for it. Take it back and do it over, right?

 

Kristina  41:08

You don’t have to be a perfect. We all do it. None of us are.

 

Heather  41:12

Absolutey. So if a child discloses, it’s really important for us to say there are local agencies that you tap into. You want to affirm your child’s bravery and their courage and align with them and say that they’ve done the right thing and that you will help them. Yes, and then help might be you go to your local Children’s Advocacy Center. You make the phone call. You set up an appointment, because there are professionals that do this and do it so well. And they really mitigate what could be a real scary situation and response. And we want to let them do that work,

 

Kristina  41:55

Right. Because they’re trained to do that. First of all, if your child discloses something to you, it’s perfectly normal to feel completely devastated, absolutely this is a horrible thing. No parent wants to hear this ever, ever. And yet we need to, just like you said, receive that with assuring them that we love them no matter what, that we are so proud of them. That it is not their fault. And it can be tempting to want to question-

 

Heather  42:24

Really, what we need to do is listen. And reassure. Listen to what they’re telling us. It’s important for us to remember, as adults, we lower our anxiety by talking about things, but talking about things for kids and peppering with questions and going back to it raises their anxiety. It’s very different for them than it is for us. And the other thing to remember is we have our adult cognitions. We have our adult knowledge, and it is hard for us to ever go back to that child way, because we have our life experiences. They walk with us every day. But I’ve heard kids retell things. I’ve heard my own children retell very benign stories, and I think I witnessed that right. If I heard that story without having seen it take place, I don’t think I would have put those two things together. That is not the picture that I conjured up in my mind. It’s not to say our children aren’t accurate in these moments, but it is a caution to say, Don’t go too far down any road. Leave that to the professionals who are skilled in doing that work, because as our heart rate goes up, as our panic goes up, our kids feel that, and they know us well enough to know that’s what’s happening. Yeah, and they may clam up, and they may decide my parent can’t handle it. I can’t tell them they can’t handle it,

 

Kristina  44:01

right? We need to reassure them. It is our job to keep them safe that again, we love them. We’re proud of them. They’re so brave.

 

Heather  44:10

And there are helpers. There are helpers that we call in these situations.

 

Kristina  44:14

Whoa, Heather, this has not been easy. 

 

Heather  44:16

No. We had spontaneously burst into tears a couple of times.

 

Kristina  44:20

This topic is one that many of us avoid, kind of at all costs.

 

Heather  44:26

But as parents, we need to go there.  

 

Kristina  44:29

Yes. And I’m so proud of all of us for diving in, for tackling this really, really difficult topic, because it’s so important. 

 

Heather  44:42

And if you are the parent that is like: “I need to do this. I want to do this. No one ever did this for me. I don’t have the first clue on how to do it,” go to the show notes. Get Pattie Fitzgerald’s books. Listen. I’m sure she’s been interviewed on TV. And podcasts. Get all the information. Educate yourself. Knowledge is power. Prepare yourself. Talk with your village. 

 

Kristina  45:09

Yep, talk to your village. We are in this together. And you can do all of these things, right? Your child doesn’t have their name in their backpack. You’re super aware, and your child—it can still happen. So preparing yourself, preparing your child as best you can, and then whatever comes, handling it together. 

 

Heather

Handling it together. 

 

Kristina

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  45:43

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  45:47

Until next time…

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails! The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  46:05

The ODC Network is a nonprofit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan. 

 

Kristina  46:13

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  46:25

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 19: Teaching & Modeling Consent 

 

In this episode, clinical social workers Kristina and Heather dive into the vital topic of teaching children about consent. They explore how fostering an understanding of boundaries, respect, and autonomy can empower kids to navigate their relationships with confidence. Through personal stories and real-life parenting examples, they highlight the importance of role-playing and modeling respectful behavior to help children learn how to ask for and give consent. Kristina and Heather also discuss the role of media in shaping kids’ perceptions of consent and stress the significance of teaching that “no” means “no” and “stop” means “stop.” Tune in for insightful tips on how to nurture a generation that values respect and autonomy in all relationships. 

 

“It has to be the long view. This was not easy for my husband. He didn’t understand sometimes the way that I was speaking to our children. And I had to be able to say to him, ‘Man, they’re not going to be little forever, like we have to have them ask permission.’ We have to have their ‘yes’ be able to become a ‘no’ at any time…”



Personal Stories and Role-Playing

  • Heather shares a personal story about her husband’s initial difficulty in understanding the importance of consent and the long-term view of teaching it to children.
  • The conversation includes the importance for both boys and girls to ask for and give consent.
  • Role-playing is highlighted as a helpful tool for enabling kids to feel more confident in setting their own boundaries and respecting others.
  • Kristina emphasizes the need for kids to be taught that their “yes” can become a “no” at any time, in situations where they are with someone familiar as well as where they are with someone they don’t know well.

 

“…You never want to inadvertently communicate to your children that if somebody’s bigger or they have more power, they can do anything they want.” 



Teaching Consent in Daily Life

  • Heather discusses the importance of teaching kids to ask for consent in everyday situations, such as asking to brush their hair or hold their hand.
  • They discuss the need for kids to be taught bodily autonomy and to feel confident saying “no” when they are uncomfortable.
  • Heather shares a story about her daughter’s experience with a doctor who did not honor her consent, emphasizing the importance of standing up for oneself.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of teaching kids that “no” means “no” and “stop” means “stop”, and the need to model this behavior in their own interactions with children.

 

“And the way we show affections, the way we’re expected to show affection. Yes, it’s a slippery slope…If the child doesn’t want to give a kiss to you, to their grandparent, to their Great Aunt, Susie, what else can we do? Right? It’s okay…We could do a high five, right? We could blow a kiss…You can communicate affection so many different ways, but we don’t demand it from children…”

 

Affection and Respecting Children’s Boundaries

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the challenges of teaching kids to express affection without demanding it from them.
  • They talk about the importance of respecting children’s boundaries and not forcing them to hug or kiss someone if they are uncomfortable.
  • Heather shares a story about her husband’s mistake of asking their son to kiss his grandmother, which led to a teachable moment about respecting children’s feelings.
  • They emphasize the importance of modeling respect and consent in all interactions with children, including those with family members.

 

“Something that we can do as parents when we’re in the trenches, teaching consent to our children and to the people that are in our child’s life is we can assess the books that we have, the movies that are in our home, the media that we allow to be seen or streamed and do a little consciousness raising. Does that book model respect and bodily autonomy and consent, or does it not? I do think it’s a good idea to read books that your adolescents are reading, and to watch what they’re watching, and to maybe watch with them.”

 

Media and Consent Education

  • Kristina and Heather discuss how important it is to assess the media that children are exposed to and ensure it models respect and bodily autonomy.
  • They talk about the need to read books and watch movies with children and have conversations about the messages they convey.
  • Kristina and Heather share their experiences of having conversations with their daughters about language and the importance of being mindful of the messages in music and media.
  • They emphasize the importance of teaching children to be critical consumers of media and to recognize when messages are not aligned with their values.

 

“And some people will say, ‘Well, but I can tell if they’re having fun or if they’re not having fun.’ But that can change in an instant…And oftentimes for children… excessive laughter is anxiousness…So we don’t always get the cues right. So teaching our children that ‘no’ means ‘no,’ ‘stop’ means ‘stop.’ And making sure that the children do that with each other, and that ‘yes’ can become ‘no’ at any time.”

 

Role-Playing and Skill Building

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of role-playing in teaching kids to manage their impulses and respect others’ boundaries.
  • They talk about using role-playing to practice skills like saying “no” and stopping unwanted behavior.
  • They share examples of how role-playing is used in their preschool setting to help children build skills in communication and conflict resolution.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of providing children with opportunities to practice these skills in safe environments before applying them in real-life situations.

“When we teach our children consent…’no’ means ‘no.’ ‘Stop,’ means ‘stop.’ The first time…There’s no code word…The code word is ‘stop’ and ‘no.’ And those need to be that way, because nobody else in the world maybe knows your code word, right? But ‘no’ and ‘stop’ mean the same things.”

 

Rough Play and Consent

  • Heather discusses the role and benefits of rough play for children and the importance of teaching kids to ask for and honor consent in these activities.
  • They emphasize the need for adults to supervise rough play and ensure that it remains safe and consensual.
  • Kristina and Heather share examples of how teachers in their preschools teach children to check in with each other and respect each other’s boundaries during rough play.
  • They emphasize the importance of normalizing consent in all aspects of children’s play and interactions.

 

“Practice. Role play. Help them build the skill outside of the actual moments. Then when the moment happens, because inevitably it will: Two children are playing. The blocks get knocked over. The child gets angry and they push or they bite or they punch. We teach our kids to say, ‘Stop. I don’t like it when you do that. Next time…’”

 

Impact of Consent on Children’s Relationships

  • Kristina discusses the importance of not making fun of children’s relationships and imposing adult cognitions on them.
  • They discuss the need to respect children’s friendships and not impose adult expectations on their interactions.
  • Heather and Kristina share examples of how adults often make inappropriate comments about children’s relationships, which can create a sense of mistrust.
  • They emphasize the importance of teaching children to respect each other’s boundaries and to communicate their needs clearly.

 

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

  • Kristina and Heather wrap up the episode by summarizing the importance of teaching consent in all aspects of children’s lives.
  • They emphasize the need for parents to model respectful behavior and to teach children that “no” means “no” and “stop” means “stop.”
  • They discuss the importance of creating a safe and respectful environment for children to grow and develop.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Consent:

 

Autonomy in Children 

 

Schedules:

 

Mindfulness of Schedules/Benefits of Down Time

 

Impact of Overscheduling on Skill Development

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

 

In prior episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In a prior episode, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

 

Books by Rachel

  1. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood

Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard

Louv:

Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin

N 

 

Natural

Start Alliance 

 

Children

& Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

 

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

 

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

 

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

 

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

 

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

 

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

 

Executive

functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

 

Keirsey’s

Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 19: Teaching & Modeling Consent

 

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re talking about something really important: teaching kids about consent. We’re not just talking about the big stuff, but empowering our kids to ask for and give permission in everyday moments. 

 

Kristina  00:12

Exactly. It’s about helping them understand that they have the right to say “no” at any time – and that their boundaries, whether it’s physical touch or personal, space, should always be respected, 

 

Heather  00:25

And we as parents get to model that behavior too, from asking for hugs to respecting when our kids set limits, it’s all part of teaching them how to respect themselves and others. 

 

Kristina  00:36

So we’ll share some tips, stories and practical ways to make consent a part of our everyday parenting.  

 

Heather

This is a conversation that you won’t want to miss. Let’s dive in. 

 

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood

 

Kristina

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are you ready? 

 

Kristina and Heather

Let’s hit the trails! 

 

Heather

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents. 

 

Kristina

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives. 

 

Heather

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  02:13

Today could be a little tricky. We’re covering a topic that I think our culture is really lacking in and that is consent – giving consent, getting consent, and what that means. Today we’re going to focus solely on consent. 

 

Heather  02:32

Yes, body safety will come later. 

 

Kristina  02:33

Yep, that’s a different episode. And we will talk about that. But this episode is just on consent. And I think one of the things that can be really helpful when we talk about consent is to zoom out- 

 

Heather  02:47

Yes-

 

Kristina  02:47

And get that long view.

 

Heather  02:49

It has to be the long view. This was not easy for my husband. He didn’t understand sometimes the way that I was speaking to our children. And I had to be able to say to him, “Man, they’re not going to be little forever, like we have to have them ask permission.” We have to have their “yes” be able to become a “no” at any time, because eventually they’re going to be in a vehicle somewhere with someone. Things have gone farther than they anticipated, and that “yes” can turn into “no” at any time. And everybody needs to understand it. And he was like, “Oh, now I’m terrified.” Yeah, I know. So it’s really important that we teach it.

 

Kristina  03:31

And you never want to inadvertently communicate to your children that if somebody’s bigger or they have more power, they can do anything they want. 

 

Heather  03:42

And I want to call out one more thing that’s absolutely true: We never want to communicate that. We never want anyone to think just because I’m bigger, I hold the power. That is a dangerous outlook. And we want people to call that out if it’s happening, right? We want to have kids that call that out. The other thing that I wanted to say is, gender wise, my husband wasn’t as focused on this until he had a daughter. I don’t think he really fully understood it. Now, he is a very respectful- 

 

Kristina  04:13

Well, he’s very tender- 

 

Heather  04:15

He’s tender. He’s respectful. He would never, ever disregard someone’s wishes or consent. It’s just not who he is. I don’t even know if it’s within him. But not everyone is that way. And he being who he is, I don’t think had thought about it for our boys, but once he had a daughter, then he could see the other side of it. But, really, it’s equally as important that we teach our boys to ask for consent and to give consent, because that’s not a one way street that is a two way street, and sometimes it feels like an expressway,

 

Kristina  04:55

Beautifully put. Teaching all of our children about consent is, I think, really critical. Empowering them to use their voice, and growing up expecting that they will be asked for their consent and regarded in that way.

 

Heather  05:12

And that begins in our homes. And that is what I just kind of naturally knew again with our training, maybe why it’s not easy to be married to us. This is just something that feels very natural to us, right? I would say to my daughter, you know, “May I brush your hair? May I braid your hair? May I help you with your coat?” I would say it to my boys, “May I hold your hand?” Right? Would you like to hold my hand? We can’t do that with everything. 

 

Kristina  05:43

We’re not saying you have to, but when you can. 

 

Heather  05:44

Yes, absolutely ask consent, because it just becomes how you regard other human beings.

 

Kristina  05:51

And for our children, when they grow up being respected and asked for their consent for different things, then if they are in a situation where they’re not that feels wrong, and we want it to feel wrong, and we want to have trained them to use their voice to say, “No, I’m not doing that,” and then how to move their bodies away, or to do something different. And it’s not just like holding somebody’s hand or brushing their hair. It doesn’t have to be involving touch. It can also involve food or whether they’re cold or whether they’re hot, or many things. But saying, “You have bodily autonomy, child. And we aren’t doing something to you without your consent.” 

 

Heather  06:42

And that’s really rooted in respect and trust. It goes way back to your values that you’re trying to teach, right? I distinctly remember my daughter, was probably six or seven, went to the ENT. She had been a kid that had had tubes in her ears. And she had many ear struggles. And she had just had tubes in. It was like, a week later, and her ear hurt. So went back in, and the doctor had said to her, “I just want to look in your ear. I just want to look at it. I know it hurts. I’m just going to look at it.” And she was like, “Oh.” I mean, she didn’t love it, but she knew we had to figure out what’s going on. So it’s like, “Okay.” So he, you know, told her what he was going to do. She says, “Okay.” Consent. He then proceeds to look in the ear and says to his assistant, “Please hand me the blah, blah, blah.” And of course, I hear this, and he has said he’s only going to look. And the assistant looks at me, which is, as I pick up on as a cue of, “Oh, we’re going somewhere else all of a sudden,” like we’ve moved on from “we’re just going to look.” And I didn’t know what this instrument was. I had no idea what it was called, but what it looked like was a needlenose pliers. It was a medical instrument of some sort. And she handed it to him, but she looked at me. And we were uncomfortable. But it all happened so quickly. He went in that ear, and he pulled that tube out, and Ava went ballistic. And so did her mother. I was furious. What he said to her when she went ballistic was, “Oh, that didn’t hurt. You don’t need to make a fuss about that.” And her mother said, “I don’t believe that’s what she’s making a fuss about. In our home, when you tell someone you’re not going to do something, we trust that. You told her you were only going to look.” And then you then it got real quiet. But the assistant made eye contact with me, and she was darling, and pregnant. And I think she thought, “Oh yeah. You go, Mama.” 

 

Kristina

I’m sure she was cheering inside. 

 

Heather

I thought, “Oh honey, get a different job.” 

 

Kristina  09:00

Yeah. Well, and observing you do that, that was really important for Ava.

 

Heather  09:06

Yeah, we never went back. No, I just shut my mouth after that and we left because nothing good was gonna come out. And I now remember this in my mind’s eye, like I’m carrying her out to our vehicle, and she’s like, “Mommy, I did not like that.” And all I could do was empathize and say, “Sweetheart, neither did I. Yeah, that shouldn’t have happened, right? He made a mistake, right? He didn’t know. He wasn’t taught.”

 

Kristina  09:29

And even though he’s the doctor, right? We could see them as authority figures. You can still say, “No way. Not on my watch. And so that’s not how we do it.

 

Heather  09:40

I remember putting her in her car seat and wiping her tears and saying, “We’re gonna find a different doctor. We won’t go back.” “Okay, mom.” And it just broke my heart a little bit. Yeah, and then, of course, I had to go home, and my poor husband had to hear – because I was still not – I mean, I’m sure I called you. I was so angry, because my blood boiled a little bit. That’s the whole whoever’s bigger has the power. And then for him to say “That didn’t even hurt.” How do you know? 

 

Kristina

No, and you stand your ground.

 

Heather

You stand your ground. And what that models for your child is “Nope. We are not going to be regarded in that way. And we are going to walk out of here. Your mama is going to shut her mouth and ask for the assistance that it stays that way. And we’re going to walk out of here and never come back.” And we didn’t. 

 

Kristina  10:35

No, when we teach our children consent, one of the things that we did in our household, and I know you did as well, is “no” means “no.” “Stop,” means “stop.” The first time.

 

Heather  10:47

There’s no code word. No, we don’t need a code word. Shout out “Eggplant.” No. The code word is “stop” and “no.”And those need to be that way, because nobody else in the world maybe knows your code word, right? But “no” and “stop” mean the same thing. 

 

Kristina  11:04

And what we’ll hear, and I lived this as well, is sometimes people use “no” and “stop” in a playful way, but they actually are wanting you to continue playful stuff. We don’t want children growing up with that like, well, somebody can say, “no, no, no, no, stop, stop, stop.” 

 

Heather  11:25

And they’re laughing and smiling, right?

 

Kristina  11:28

And that that’s all good. But then in another circumstance, when somebody says “no, no, no, stop, stop, stop,” it’s like “No, the first “No,” we’re done. We’re done. And then if you want to have me start tickling you again. You can say, “Do it again. Do it again.” But if you say “no,” or you say, “stop,” hands off. Over. Game over. Game over.

 

Heather  11:47

And we teach this in our preschool world all the time. It’s, in fact, one of the things that when parents come in to volunteer, they will notice very quickly how highly the children are regarded, and that their voice has weight. “Yes, I see you’re struggling with your zipper. Would you like me to help? Or can you get it on your own?” “I can do it, Miss Heather.” Then maybe for a minute. “Oh, will you get it started for me, and then I can get it? I can do it, Miss Heather.” “I believe you, sweetheart. I will happily get it started for you.” “Right. There.” “You got it now?” “Got it.” “Thank you.”

 

Kristina  12:25

You know, the hardest thing for me is like a snotty nose…

 

Heather  12:28

And then somebody just comes up from behind and wipes that nose, right? It’s “May I wipe your nose for you?” Right?

 

Kristina  12:36

Or “Would you like to wipe it yourself?” And they wipe it and it smears it all over their face. And maybe it got a little on you too. And they’re learning. 

 

Heather  12:49

But asking for consent, because so often we just do those things to children without realizing the subliminal message of: I get to decide what’s best for your body. I know you need your nose wiped. I know you need your hair brushed. I know you need your teeth brushed. They do need to brush their teeth. They hopefully do need to brush their hair, right? These are good, healthy hygiene habits. But if we can, when we’re able, “May I help you? We’re going to brush teeth.” That’s not a question, right? Sometimes they just need to go brush their teeth. “Would you like help? Do you want to do it on your own?” Giving that autonomy is just a great way to teach consent. The tickling is a beautiful way to teach the hands off immediately when “stop” or “no” happens. Just practicing that, yeah.

 

Kristina  13:40

And some people will say, “Well, but I can tell if they’re having fun or if they’re not having fun.” But that can change in an instant. And I’m one of those people that, if I am, like, in a hysterical kind of, not funny, but hysterical kind of shock or something like that, I laugh. Now am I happy? Do I think it’s funny? I do not. But that is what my body is doing.

 

Heather  14:05

And oftentimes for children, I think it’s really important to say excessive laughter is anxiousness. Yes, I think that’s really important to point out-

 

Kristina  14:14

So we don’t always get the cues right. No. So teaching our children that “no” means “no,” “stop” means “stop,” and making sure that the children do that with each other.

 

Heather  14:27

And that “yes” can become “no” at any time. It’s another thing we teach at school. Like, “Do you want to have a snowball fight?” We let kids throw snow and the rule is belly or below. You know, they’re four. They don’t have great aim. Sometimes we take one right to the face. “Did you like that?” “No.” “Yeah, tell them. “I didn’t like it. You’re supposed to aim for my belly.” “I was trying, but I hit your face. I’m sorry.” Do you want to play anymore? “No.” We’re done, right? That’s all. It takes one snowball to the face that was supposed to go to the belly or the knees or wherever.

 

Kristina  15:01

And it’s important that we teach our children, not just individually but collectively, to listen to each other, right? “Your brother said, ‘stop.’ It’s done.” And making sure that they’re respecting that amongst each other builds their confidence, right?

 

Heather  15:16

And we don’t necessarily, as parents, realize that. But it gives them the ability to stand a little taller, to put their shoulders back a bit.

 

Kristina  15:27

That’s part of the beauty in teaching consent is that you hand them their power. And like you said, it doesn’t mean that there aren’t the times that you have to pick your child up for some reason, even if they don’t want to. Or you’re going to the doctor and they’re going to need to have their ears examined, or they’re going to get an injection, and they say “no,” and then you can’t do it. You’re not powerless as the adult. No. But every chance you have to model consent. Model consent. We want to do that.

 

Heather  15:58

Absolutely. Let’s talk about affection. And how affection can get so tricky and so manipulative. And the way we show affections, the way we’re expected to show affection. Yes, it’s a slippery slope. 

 

Kristina  16:21

It is a slippery slope. If the child doesn’t want to give a kiss to you, to their grandparent, to their great aunt, Susie, what else can we do? Right? It’s okay. We don’t hug. Have to.

 

Heather  16:36

We could do a high five, right? We could blow a kiss. I love the blow a kiss? 

 

Kristina  16:40

Yep,I do too, from afar, right? You can communicate affection so many different ways, but we don’t demand it from children.

 

Heather  16:49

And we don’t ask our children to go do the dirty work. Travis’s grandmother was elderly and in a nursing home, and she had had a stroke. And so there would, I mean, she had had a stroke, half of her body was numb. So there would be some drool and things like that. We would go there to celebrate. She had false teeth, and she would laugh real hard. And sometimes the teeth would come out. And these things happen, right? Yeah, well, little Luke was teeny, like two maybe. And my husband said to Luke, “Go give Grandma a kiss.” And he clearly was not comfortable in this space. So he stuck real close to me and I’m like, “It’s okay, baby,” comforting him throughout this visit that we were there the whole time. And Luke looked at him, and I looked at him, and I said to him, “You go give Grandma a kiss.” And Luke was like, I mean, he didn’t say that, but he was like, I could feel him melt into me, like, and then we got in the car, and Travis was like, “I don’t even know why I said that.” And I’m like, “I do. You wanted to send the child to do the job you didn’t want to do.” 

 

Kristina  18:19

That’s such a great story. It’s such a great story because we-

 

Heather  18:23

He hadn’t even thought it through. 

 

Kristina  18:27

But we do. That stuff slips out of our mouth before we even know what we’re saying. It’s like, “Oh, go give Grandpa a kiss,” you know? I mean, “Go give Grandpa and Grandma a kiss and a hug. They love you so much.” And I think they can love you so much, and you don’t have to give them a kiss or a hug because we’re telling you to.

 

Heather  18:45

And here’s the thing, guys, when you do a bonehead thing like that, we all do, just do it beautifully, like my husband. It’d be like “that was so dumb,” because that we can agree on. If he was gonna come at me with “Why did you say that to me in that moment?” Whoa, that would have been a dissertation.

 

Kristina

So empowering our children in those moments, to be able to have their autonomy and to not do those things and to never force them to hug to kiss when they’re uncomfortable, they have a sense. 

 

Heather

Luke had an “uh oh” feeling. Yep. And I couldn’t unpack it with them in that moment what was happening. Because we had an audience. And there was a party happening, right? It was a family event. So it wasn’t the time to be like, “What’s going on didn’t really matter.” No, like, I was just gonna comfort my child. That’s what he needed. He was uncomfortable, right? So to respect that and not make him go do those things that there are plenty of other ways we can show our love to Grandma and we can get those needs met without making the child do that and then modeling like, “I’m sorry I asked you to do that. That wasn’t okay.” 

 

Kristina  20:04

Yes, to model when a line has been crossed. Yes, like taking responsibility for it. “You know what? I shouldn’t have done that.” 

 

Heather  20:11

I’m sure Luke doesn’t remember that at all. I’m gonna ask him now. I’m gonna go home and ask him. But what kids are more likely to remember is that you apologized to them. Like he may remember his dad saying to him, “That was kind of a ding dong thing to do. I’m really sorry about that. I should have went and kissed Grandma. I’m not sure why I thought you should do that.”

 

Kristina  20:35

So like we’d said, affection and love can be shown in lots of different ways. Training not just us as their parents, but also others, to say, “ Oh, Oma, do you want to ask Grace if she would like a hug or a high five goodbye?” And then instead of saying, you know, “Come over here and give me a kiss,” giving the prompt, right? So I don’t care if the child is two, three, ten, twenty, we don’t demand affection be shown in a certain way. It’s not respectful.

 

Heather  21:09

Oh, and it’s so tricky, because all those feelings get wound into it. 

 

Kristina  21:13

I know. And when my daughter is upset, all I want to do, like every cell in my body just wants to hold her. And she doesn’t want to be held. 

 

Heather  21:24

There’s such a thing to that stage. It’s so true. And what I have found with my kids, my boys in particular, it’s the late night and I’m just like…to be there when they get home. It’s like they’re an open book at 11:30 and after, which is interesting, because I’m like a closed book, like, I just want to go night, night. So there’s a phase where you just kind of get out the scotch tape and tape your eyelids up. And you do that because that’s where your kids need you to be in that moment. The other thing is getting them distracted and not going in to talk about something, right? But maybe baking or cooking or folding laundry. I read something that I thought was really beautiful the other day, and it was a grown woman reflecting on how her mother had never pressured her to talk about something, but could sense that something was awry, which we can so often as parents like I’m not sure what it is, but something is off there. And she would bring the laundry in and just sit at her daughter’s bed and start folding the laundry. And they would just be talking about the day, and before you know it, right, because the mom is focused on the laundry, but there’s all this conversation happening between the two of them. All of a sudden, the daughter is opening up. She remembered her mother the laundry would be completely folded and back in the basket, and she’d dump it back out and start refolding it again. It’s really a beautiful picture of what parenting truly is.

 

Kristina  22:56

Yeah, I used to have a puzzle out in my office. And when I met with children, adolescents, we would sit on the floor and it was on a coffee table and not have to make eye contact. I mean, if they were fine with it, that’s great. But if they weren’t, then we could focus on the puzzle. You didn’t actually put in pieces. I mean, maybe you did, if you were super, really good at it, but we could talk and have the puzzle to break the intensity.

 

Heather  23:25

That was the whole point from this daughter. She’s like “My mom always had time.” And she would focus on that laundry because she knew I couldn’t just sit and be directly eye to eyeball with her. So she would just keep folding the same basket of laundry, three, four, however many times it took?

 

Kristina  23:44

Yep. Something that we can do as parents when we’re in the trenches, teaching consent to our children and to the people that are in our child’s life is we can assess the books that we have, the movies that are in our home, the media that we allow to be seen or streamed and do a little consciousness raising. Does that book model respect and bodily autonomy and consent, or does it not? I do think it’s a good idea to read books that your adolescents are reading, and to watch what they’re watching, and to maybe watch with them.

 

Heather  24:16

They have so much access. They can get it when we’re there, when we’re not there. Sometimes it’s just best to embrace it together. Unless it’s, you know, something that’s completely against your values, then don’t do that. I think it’s important that even in the movies that we’re watching, what are we’re exposing our children to, that we really look at the message that’s there. How are the people dressed? How do they regard one another, even like in the music I listen to – My daughter listens to country music. And I’m like, “Listen. Not everything is about loss of love, drinking and shake it, Country Girl, shake it for me.” Not everything is about that. You don’t have to be a country girl shaking it for anybody. It’s not just about breakups and drinking, because sometimes it can feel like that. And I just sometimes want to listen to music that doesn’t say all of those things.

 

Kristina  25:12

We don’t want to send these mixed messages, no. 

 

Heather  25:17

And what I say to my kids all the time is “What you take in matters. Clear eyes, full heart. Garbage in, garbage out. Yep, that’s how it works.”

 

Kristina  25:27

And if you are watching something with your child or reading something with your child, and it takes a turn down a pathway you didn’t want to go, have a conversation about them. You can use those as teachable moments and not have to be like my mom. She’d do this. “Tsk.” Yeah, but it was a “tsk” there was a bad word or something like that. Darn it, if I don’t do the same. So anyway, you can have a conversation. Grace and I just had one yesterday on language, and that I’m comfortable with a lot of language, but that she just needed to tone a little of it down a little bit, because it was like “Sweet freedom. I can drop these bombs, and mom’s okay with it.” Well, to a certain extent. And then I have to, especially if I hear it like in music or in- we were watching some theater, and it was like, “Ooh, I think she’d be on Broadway, and I was like, “well, they’re gonna have to clean up their language.”

 

Heather  26:32

And that goes back to your village and the beauty of grandparents. I would say to my kids, “What if your Oma heard you say that? Yeah, you better “check yourself before you wreck yourself.”

 

Kristina  26:49

So I mentioned earlier about role playing and Grace, and I would do that role playing that’s a really great thing to do, especially if you have a child who doesn’t always hear or understand the “no.” Their impulse or their desire to interact with another individual, it takes them over.

 

Heather  27:08

And sometimes we work with kids that maybe we don’t know have ADHD, right? Because we work with little little ones, but I know I have a child with ADHD. You have a child with ADHD. And so how do we capture them? What I learned worked well for my son was to say his name. And so if he was having an interaction with Luke or with Ava or whomever, to be able to say “Zachary,” which I don’t call him Zachary hardly ever, but it pulled him into “Oh.” You know, or even Zack, whatever it might be. But to say their name. And you might have to say it two or three times, because, again, it’s not that he’s trying to not hear me. It’s that he doesn’t have that focus. And so there is a limitation there. But that would get him to focus. And then he could stop. And then we could talk about it. 

 

Kristina  27:59

I was just gonna say, we do it at school too, where, you know, there’s a child that, when they get frustrated, they maybe hit or they bite. And so we’ll do something where we’ll say, “Okay, so we’re gonna build a tower, and then I’m going to knock it down, and we’re gonna practice with you saying, ‘Oh, nuts.’ Good thing. We can build it again, right? And not hitting me. So we’re going to role play it. I’m going to tell you exactly what I’m going to do. We’re building it. We’re building it. Oh, it’s so tall. And then remember, I’m going to knock it down. And practicing that so that they have the opportunity to practice the skill when they have been set up and supported in building that skill.

 

Heather  28:43

Yeah, because they can’t possibly do it in their natural environment if they haven’t practiced that outside in a safe place with someone who cares for them. And that’s scaffolded skill building, right? 

 

Kristina  28:54

And that’s especially important for the kids who struggle with impulse control,

 

Heather  29:00

Impulse to action. They have no pause. Impulse, action, right?

 

Kristina  29:03

And they may have different sensory needs. So, you know, we’ve talked about the kids who like move through groups and the kind of like bumper cars bounce off. They’re bouncing off because they like more sensory input or have less awareness of their body and space. Practice, role play, help them build the skill outside of the actual moments. Then when the moment happens, because inevitably it will. Two children are playing. The blocks get knocked over. The child gets angry and they push or they bite or they punch. We teach our kids to say, “Stop. I don’t like it when you do that. Next time…” Thankfully, at our preschools, we have the beauty of having three teachers in each classroom. So three teachers, eighteen kids, which allows us to have more supervision to when something like that happens. Go over and say, “Oh, I heard him say he didn’t like it.” Or to say, “Did you like it when he did that?” And empower the child to say, “I didn’t.” “Then tell him.” 

 

Heather  30:10

And they get really good at it, once they’re empowered, because it’s their developmental stage, right? We give them the script. We do that teaching and the beginning of the school year. But now, for the most part, we’re at the place in the school year where we’re three, four months in, and they’re doing this on their own. They want to show initiative, they want to lead, and so they’re able to communicate those things back and forth. And we have a philosophy, right? We’re nature-based, we’re play-based, we’re child-led. And within our nature-based, play-based philosophy, we believe in risky play for children, because we know there are so many benefits. One of the things that kids can engage in with supervision. We’re always supervising them in rough play, right? Where we know that that stimulates their brain. We know for some kids, they’re going to focus better if they have that rough-play.The trick in why so many people move away from rough play is because the consent isn’t honored, that the yes, when it becomes a no, isn’t honored. So if we have children engaging in rough play, number one, you have to ask, “Do you want to play rough? Do you want to play rough?” It might be, “Do you want to tackle?” Do you want to whatever it might be, right? And there’s a group of kids that all give consent, and then there’s a teacher or myself right there, and we’re watching when this happens, and we teach kids, check in. “Do they still want to play?” “Yes, check in. Do they still want to play?” And you teach them look at their face. “Do they look like they’re having fun? Look at her face. Check in if you’re not sure.” And that face is telling you and you’re not sure, ask, “Is this still good? Do you still want to play?” And if they say “yes,” and sometimes I think there’s no way, and they’re like, “yeah.” And so we don’t let it get dangerous, because we’re the grown up, right? 

 

Kristina  32:09

Always flat hands and you don’t cover her faces. 

 

Heather  32:11

And so we don’t let it get dangerous, right? But it’s all of that intentional teaching that the consent just becomes normalized. And then if the answer is “No, I don’t want to play anymore.” “Oh, what did you hear them say?” “They don’t want to play anymore.” Okay. And they move on. “Do you want to play?” “Yeah, I want to play now.” And we can start again.

 

Kristina  32:33

So for the children that have a harder time holding their impulses or hearing the “no,” because it doesn’t even translate well.

 

Heather  32:47

And what I will often say to kids is, it’s not a “no” to being your friend. It’s a “no” to this play right now. They want to be your friend, because sometimes it feels like rejection. It’s not a rejection. It’s just saying, “Oh, I’m done playing rough now.”

 

Kristina  33:03

Okay, as we wrap up talking about consent, there’s one more thing I want to talk about, and that is, as adults, we shouldn’t be making fun of children’s relationships.

 

Heather  33:13

And always trying to put adult cognitions on them. “Are you a couple? Are you guys going to get married?” This was a thing for my Luke and our neighbor, who were three weeks apart, and they were raised on the same sweet little private drives. They played together like brother and sister growing up. And people would often say, “Oh, I can’t wait to see if they date. I can’t wait to see if they…do you think they’ll get married?” I’m like, “They’re like, four, right? Five? Like, can we just let them be children? 

 

Kristina  33:48

Like, get- why are you even thinking about this. Yeah, or saying to little ones that are friends, like, “Oh, is that your boyfriend?” “Ooh, that’s your girlfriend.” So here’s the thing, if we make fun of children, first of all, like, what is that even about?

 

Heather  34:04

Well, they just see them as friends, right? Playmates, and that’s it.

 

Kristina  34:08

But why? As adults, we do that to children in their relationships? So here’s the thing, if we do that, if we make fun of them in their relationships, especially involving those types of relationships-

 

Heather  34:20

I don’t even know if it’s coming from a make fun place or if it’s just like, “I’m trying to relate?”

 

Kristina  34:25

Right. I don’t, I don’t think it’s necessarily from a make fun place. But when you’re talking like, these are four year olds. You’re being ridiculous. When you do that, make those comments and do it in a, you know, like, “Ooh” kind of a way. Guess what? They’re not going to talk to you about their relationships when they’re a little older. And their relationships are maybe a little more complicated. It creates this dynamic of: I’m actually going to be mocked by that right? Subconsciously you’ve created a space that’s not safe anymore. So just don’t do it. Don’t talk about who they’re gonna marry when they’re four. You don’t need to talk about, like, “Ooh, you spent an awful lot of time with him. Is he your boyfriend? Do you think he’s cute?” Like, eww. No. They really like to build Lego together. So yeah, if we can stop doing that and stop kind of imposing on children these adult relationship or adult cognitions, we’re going to be in a much better place,

 

Heather  35:24

In just the world in general, if we can teach consent in our homes, and then our children go out and they know how to ask consent, they know how to give consent. They expect to be regarded in that way? It’s impactful. They know way healthier world. 

 

Kristina  35:45

They know that “no” means “no” and “stop” means “stop.” And when they have asserted themselves, if that’s not honored and respected, there’s a problem. Because that’s not the way that they’ve been raised. 

 

Heather  35:59

And if it was a “yes,” it can become a “no” at any time. And it gets respected.

 

Kristina  36:07

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  36:13

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  36:18

Until next time… 

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell. 

 

Heather  36:35

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  36:43

Since 2000, the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  36:56

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved go to www.ODCNetwork.org.



Episode 18: Grandparents

 

In this episode Heather and Kristina dive deep into the delicate dance between parents and grandparents. This conversation explores the emotional and practical challenges of navigating this complex family dynamic, from the deep joy of grandparent bonding to the tough moments of miscommunication and boundary-pushing. 

Did you know that half of parents are raising their kids the same way they were raised—with love and clear rules—while the other half focus more on love and relationships? From gift-giving dilemmas to disagreements over screen time, discipline, and holiday plans, Heather and Kristina tackle these and other common points of tension that pop up between generations. 

They share insights on how to foster open communication, set healthy boundaries, and ensure mutual respect—while also acknowledging the unique generational differences at play. As always, they remind us it comes back to the question: what behaviors do we want to model for our kiddos? 

Tune in for practical advice, relatable stories, and a bit of humor as they help us navigate the often tricky, always rewarding world of parenting… grandparenting!

 

“So our parents will always be our parents, and we’ll always be their children…It’s their role. And it’s a role that doesn’t end…And then when we become parents and they become grandparents, they’re still viewing us as their children. And so they have a lot of wisdom that they can share. They have so much experience, and they want to continue to impart that to us. They’ve parented, right? Their kids have turned out well, and they want to help us parent our children…And that’s the thing is, they’re coming at it, at least in my experience, from a place of wanting to help. But doesn’t always feel like help. Sometimes it feels like criticism. Sometimes it feels like we’re being undermined.”



Grandparents’ Impact and Role

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the significant impact grandparents have on our lives and the lives of children.
  • Heather shares her personal experiences with her grandparents and how they were a source of unconditional love and support.
  • Kristina emphasizes the beauty of being a grandparent, highlighting the extra time, patience, and resources they often have.
  • The conversation touches on the emotional complexity of the grandparent-grandchild relationship and how it can complicate family dynamics.

 

“…The fifty percent that said they’re raising them similarly tended to grow up in homes where they had gotten a lot of unconditional love. It felt safe. And it was a place of verbal affirmation and outward displays of affection…the individuals that are choosing to raise their children similarly to how they were raised are modeling after obedience, focuses on rules, responsibility, manners, chores, and accountability. Who does that sound like? When we think back to temperament, it’s like, “Oh, of course! It’s the Guardians…So they grew up in loving yet, I would say there was a pretty strong framework of rules. What’s right and wrong accountability, and that’s the Guardians, and it’s the Rationals, because it’s logical.”

 

“…And for the fifty percent of individuals, roughly, that are raising their children differently, they say that they’re focusing more on love and relationship itself. And who does that sound like? The Idealists all day long…And the Artisans…want beautiful, harmonious homes and relationships. And they say they’re taking a different approach in raising their children. And they are working to give them more love and affection than they received as a child. They want their children to feel like they’re growing up in homes where there is a lot of support coming alongside… That group focuses more on the parenting style and, philosophies and approaches to discipline and setting expectations for behavior.”

 

Parenting Styles and Generational Differences

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the research showing that 50% of parents are raising their children similarly to how they were raised, often in homes with unconditional love and clear rules.
  • They identify the Guardian personality type as those who value obedience, rules, and accountability, which aligns with the 50% raising children similarly.
  • The other 50% of parents are focusing more on love and relationship, often aligning with the Idealist and Artisan personality types.
  • Kristina points out the challenge of respecting our parents’ past parenting while charting a new course for our own children.

 

“And again…all of our everything – our past, our present, what we believe for the future –  is all wound in it differently, because it’s our family. And that’s why I think the stepping away from it and gaining a larger perspective is really, really hard.”

 

Navigating Different Parenting Approaches

  • Heather and Kristina talk about the difficulty of grandparents feeling judged when their children choose to parent differently.
  • They discuss the importance of communication and setting boundaries to navigate these differences.
  • Kristina shares a personal story about receiving a Christmas dress for her daughter from her mother, highlighting the unexpected feelings that can be tricky to navigate around well-intentioned gestures grandparents make.
  • Heather emphasizes the need for mutual respect and understanding between parents and grandparents.

 

“And yet, grandparents are doing these things for their grandchildren. And in some ways, it kind of robs the experience from the parents…and that’s what it feels like. But that’s not the intention. The intention is to do something beautiful and have this wonderful experience.”

 

Common Points of Contention

  • The conversation shifts to common points of contention between parents and grandparents, such as gift-giving and holiday plans.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges of setting boundaries around gifts and the impact on the parenting experience.
  • They talk about the difficulty of balancing multiple family gatherings during holidays and the need to communicate expectations clearly.
  • The topic of screen time comes up, with Heather and Kristina discussing the challenges of grandparents using screens despite the parents’ wishes.

 

“My mom did a beautiful thing, so many beautiful things, but one of the things she said as we were growing up was, ‘The day is not important. It’s the gathering.’”

 

“…And we had to set a boundary with that and say, ‘We will not. We will not do that,’ because at that point, it doesn’t feel like you’re able to enjoy, right? Because it just becomes harried and chaotic, at least it did for us. And so we set a boundary around: we will go one place. We can have another celebration at another time. But it’s all those things of talking that through and figuring that out.”

 

Discipline and Developmental Expectations

  • Heather and Kristina delve into the differences in discipline styles between generations and the importance of understanding developmental milestones.
  • They discuss the challenges of some grandparents using outdated discipline methods and the need for education and respectful communication.
  • Kristina highlights the importance of setting developmentally appropriate behavioral expectations for children.
  • Heather emphasizes the need for parents to model respectful communication and to avoid letting past emotions interfere with current interactions.

 

“Another big thing that we hear from a lot of parents is screen time. ‘I don’t want my child, my young child, on my parents smartphone or on an iPad or on a device.’ Or as a babysitter to be in front of a screen. And they don’t respect that. Or they don’t understand that. And they just think it’s no big deal. And they know my child loves it. And of course, they love it, right? But the parent is saying ‘It doesn’t mean it’s what’s best for them.’ And it’s something that I’ve said I don’t want my child to experience, and yet it keeps coming up.”

 

Building Mutual Respect and Understanding

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of mutual respect and understanding between parents and grandparents.
  • They talk about the need for parents to reassure their parents that they’ve done a good job and to focus on the positive aspects of their childhood.
  • The conversation touches on the importance of approaching conversations with empathy and understanding, rather than trying to prove who is right.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the need for parents to model the behavior they want to see in their children when interacting with their own parents.

 

“So it requires zooming out and stepping back from the situation and saying, ‘Am I setting my parents up well for success? Is this a reasonable ask? And what can we flex on? What can we mutually agree upon? And sometimes it’s just educating and saying ‘I didn’t know either. But I’ve learned about the dopamine dump. Or I’ve learned about the effects of blue light and what that has for vision and all different things,’ just educating…”

 

Balancing Tradition and Modern Parenting

  • They discuss the challenges of balancing traditional parenting practices with modern approaches to child-rearing.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of setting boundaries around screen time and other parenting decisions.
  • The conversation highlights the importance of open communication and setting clear expectations to avoid conflicts.

 

“…There are many grandparents who are part of the child care plan for their grandchildren. They pick up at preschool. They provide lunch. They’re the childcare provider until after parents are out of work…There’s a lot of that going on, which makes things then especially tricky, because you don’t just get to be grandma…It is a dual role, and that can be tricky…”

 

The Role of Grandparents in Child care

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the increasing role of grandparents in child care and the challenges that come with it.
  • They talk about the importance of grandparents understanding their dual role as caregivers and grandparents.
  • The conversation includes the challenges of balancing traditional parenting practices with more current approaches to child care.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the need for grandparents to respect the parenting choices of their children and to find ways to support them.

 

“…Manipulation is a pretty high level cognitive skill. And yet, we as adults and parents and grandparents can think, ‘Oh, they are manipulating me.’ And, place on children behavioral expectations that aren’t appropriate to where they are developmentally. So sharing that kind of information. And we want to do it in a way that is so respectful. Because what you don’t want to communicate inadvertently is ‘You didn’t know. But this isn’t the way it is.’ Or “Maybe you’ve forgotten what it’s like to have a fourteen month old…”

 

Navigating Disagreements with Respect

  • Heather and Kristina discuss strategies for navigating disagreements between parents and grandparents with respect.
  • Again, they emphasize the importance of approaching conversations with empathy and understanding.
  • The conversation highlights the importance of setting boundaries and finding common ground to avoid conflicts.

 

“…coming at it with respect and knowing we can all learn from one another, right? Like parent to child. Child to parent. If we approach it as a learner and to seek to understand it’s vastly different than if we’re at odds and we’re trying to prove we’re trying to win, right? Which is a very different way to approach a conversation. You can just let that fall. We don’t have to respond to that in that moment.  Or you could say, ‘You know what? You’re right, Mom. You never would have let me get away with that. You’re right.”

 

The Importance of Intergenerational Relationships

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of intergenerational relationships and the powerful role of grandparents in their grandchildren’s lives.
  • They emphasize the need for parents to involve grandparents in their children’s lives in meaningful ways.
  • They discuss the challenges of balancing different parenting styles and finding ways to support each other, emphasizing the importance of mutual respect and understanding in building strong intergenerational relationships.

 

“Because it’s not me against you. No, we’re together, right? We are allies and adversaries, nurturing this little person. For many of them, the first time they have a grandchild. They’ve not done this before. They don’t know what it means to be a grandparent yet. But the reminder of: they love you.They love this beautiful child. No one is trying to irritate anyone on purpose. If we can come to the table and be on the same side of the table with that understanding, the child’s gonna win…”

 

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

How Today’s Parents Say Their Approach to Parenting Does – or Doesn’t – Match Their Own Upbringing

 

Mindfulness of Schedules/Benefits of Down Time

 

Impact of Overscheduling on Skill Development

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

In prior episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In prior episodes, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

 

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 18: Grandparents

 

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re diving into a topic that so many of us can relate to: the sometimes tricky relationship between parents and grandparents.

 

Kristina  00:07

It’s a love-filled relationship, but with a fair share of challenges too. We’re talking everything from emotional ups and downs to the practical issues that come up when families try to get along.

 

Heather  00:19

Exactly. As parents we’re often stuck between honoring how we were raised and figuring out our own parenting style. And then there are just some typical, classic points of tension, like gift giving, holiday plans, screen time and discipline.

 

Kristina  00:35

We’ll share why it’s super important to keep communication open, set boundaries and show respect, especially when things get tricky. 

 

Heather  00:43

We’ll also chat about understanding generational differences and how we as parents can model respectful interactions for our kids. After all, they’re learning how to handle these family dynamics from us. 

 

Kristina  00:54

So if you’ve ever found yourself in a generational clash with family, or you just want some tips on how to balance it all, this episode is for you.

 

Heather  01:07

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  01:10

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  01:23

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  01:45

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are you ready? 

 

Kristina and Heather

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  01:58

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers, and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:10

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

 

Heather  02:18

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org, to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. Today, we’re going to talk about grandparents.

 

Kristina  02:32

This is a sensitive topic.

 

Heather  02:34

It is. And grandparents are so wonderful. I had really impactful grandparents in my life. I know you did as well. You had a grandma that lived with you for a bit. I grew up next to a set of my grandparents. When my husband and I got married, he had a set of grandparents. And they are gone now, but they were so impactful in our lives. And grandparents are the magic. They’re a treasure. They’re wonderful. And they just always seem to have enough time, which, as a child, I loved.

 

Kristina  03:10

Yes, yes. There’s such a beauty in being a grandparent. Yes, right? And I think, right, when you become a grandparent, many times, not always, but many times, you just have more space and more time, more patience, more resources. Yeah, and it’s the beauty, right? It’s like, hey, I get to be the grandparent and have all the fun, and then I send them back home to their parents all sugared up. 

 

Heather 

It’s so true. 

 

Kristina

I’m Grandma, I get to spoil them, right?

 

Heather  03:41

Yes. And they leave such a tremendous mark on our lives and on our children’s lives. And that’s why this topic is tricky, because there’s so much love woven into it. There’s so much emotion woven into it. And that’s what makes families tricky, right? Is when our heart is all wrapped up in it, and it just makes things tricky. So we hear a lot from parents in our parenting classes, “I feel like my parents don’t see me as a grown up raising children. I still feel like their kid.” 

 

Kristina  04:24

Yes well, and that’s the thing, right? So our parents will always be our parents, and we’ll always be their children.

 

Heather  04:32

It’s their role. And it’s a role that doesn’t end. They’re always our parents, right?

 

Kristina  04:38

And then when we become parents and they become grandparents, they’re still viewing us as their children. And so they have a lot of wisdom that they can share. They have so much experience, and they want to continue to impart that to us. They’ve parented, right? Their kids have turned out well, and they want to help us parent our children.

 

Heather  05:01

And that’s the thing is, they’re coming at it, at least in my experience, from a place of wanting to help. But doesn’t always feel like help. Sometimes it feels like criticism. Sometimes it feels like we’re being undermined.

 

Kristina  05:16

Or judged because we’re not doing it, maybe the way that they did it.

 

Heather  05:21

And maybe they don’t have faith in this method or this philosophy that we’re trying.

 

Kristina  05:27

Or they don’t really even understand it, right? That’s one of the things that, actually, I’ve heard about the podcast from listeners, is, “Oh, it’s so helpful because I can share it with my parents. And then they have a better understanding. 

 

Heather  05:41

Because maybe we can’t put into words what we’re trying to attain in this relationship with growing our children. And maybe the podcast can be a vehicle to do that. So true. Grandparents are so wonderful. Don’t hear us say that it’s not worth the tricky. Oh, all day long, it’s all day long worth-

 

Kristina  06:00

Worth the tricky. So there was an interesting piece of research that I read recently. And you had read it too. Share that with us.

 

Heather  06:08

And we’ll put it in the show notes so you can take a closer look at it. But I thought it was fascinating. It was very recent research, and it said that fifty percent of parents are attempting to raise their children similarly to how they were raised. That also means that then roughly fifty percent of U.S. parents say that they’re attempting to raise their children differently than they were raised. So let’s go to the fifty that say that they’re raising them similarly. This was really interesting to me. The fifty percent that said they’re raising them similarly tended to grow up in homes where they had gotten a lot of unconditional love. It felt safe. And it was a place of verbal affirmation and outward displays of affection. I think that’s really important to mention. 

 

Kristina

Yes, that was very interesting.

 

Heather

It was, and it was a little further down the road, because I was surprised, because based on what we hear from parents, I would have thought it was higher that more people were trying to raise their children differently. So we had to dig into it a bit more. So the individuals that are choosing to raise their children similarly to how they were raised are modeling after obedience, focuses on rules, responsibility, manners, chores, and accountability. Who does that sound like? When we think back to temperament, it’s like, “Oh, of course!”

 

Kristina

It’s the Guardians. 

 

Heather

It’s the Guardians. It’s the Guardians, which is fifty percent of our population. Yep. And they value all those things, right? The duty, the responsibility. They organize their world around law and order.

 

Kristina  07:59

I love when you said this -those folks grew up in really loving homes.

 

Heather  08:02

Yes. The outward affection and unconditional love, and verbal affirmation. So they grew up in loving yet, I would say there was a pretty strong framework of rules. What’s right and wrong accountability, and that’s the Guardians, and it’s the Rationals, because it’s logical. So yeah, fifty percent of our population, right there. Absolutely. And for the fifty percent of individuals, roughly, that are raising their children differently, they say that they’re focusing more on love and relationship itself. And who does that sound like? 

 

Kristina

Oh, the Idealists all day long.

 

Heather

Yep. And the Artisans. We want beautiful, harmonious homes and relationships. And they say they’re taking a different approach in raising their children. And they are working to give them more love and affection than they received as a child. They want their children to feel like they’re growing up in homes where there is a lot of support coming alongside. So I thought that was really interesting. 

 

Kristina  09:13

Yeah. That group focuses more on the parenting style and like, philosophies and approaches to discipline and setting expectations for behavior.

 

Heather  09:22

Yeah. Which sounds an awful lot like how we’re trying to do it in our homes. 

 

Kristina  09:26

Yes, so part of the trick becomes respecting our parents and their parenting, respecting that past while also charting a new course.

 

Heather  09:42

Yeah, and I think it requires us saying that out loud to them. Like “It’s different now. It’s not that I’m doing it differently than you did. It’s that you were parenting for the world that we had,” right? And we just know more now, right? 

 

Kristina  10:00

Because many times our parents, when we choose to do it differently, parent differently, they feel that as a judgment on their parenting.

 

Heather  10:09

I think they can hear it as “You didn’t do it well enough. So I’m doing it differently, “and it’s not that at all, right? 

 

Kristina  10:18

No. And you’ll hear things like, “Well, you know, I was a terrible parent.” No, you weren’t a terrible parent. 

 

Heather  10:24

Or you’ll hear things like, “Well, I don’t know how you turned out okay.” Yeah. “How are you even still alive?” 

 

Kristina  10:31

Well,and sometimes I wonder that, right? Because we do too. We grew up in a world, right, where-

 

Heather  10:37

There was way less supervision, 

 

Kristina

My goodness. Way less supervision. 

 

Heather

Oh, man, yeah. 

 

Kristina  10:43

Well, and we didn’t walk around with water bottles all day. I mean, we were like chronically dehydrated.

 

Heather  10:48

We carried our baloney sandwich that had mayonnaise on it in a rusty lunch box to a hot school. I ate that sandwich.

 

Kristina  10:57

A Holly Hobby lunch box, if we were lucky, right?

 

Heather  11:02

I had the Fox and the Hound. 

 

Kristina  11:04

Oh, lucky duck. Yeah. There were no ice packs back then to keep mayonnaise cold.

 

Heather  11:09

No, we all lived, I guess. 

 

Kristina

No bike helmets.

 

Heather

No, we rolled around in station wagons with all of our cousins and cars filled with smoke, because everyone smoked.

 

Kristina  11:23

Yeah, or you’d be in the station wagon and like four of you are rolling around in the back because you could. We did things differently back then. 

 

Heather

No car seats.

 

Kristina

No. No car seats, none of that. No. Uh uh.

 

Heather  11:37

My husband grew up riding his big wheel to the corner store to buy candy cigarettes. It was a different time, folks, it was a different time. 

 

Kristina  11:46

It was and didn’t we look cool?

 

Heather  11:49

I’m not sure we looked cool. 

 

Kristina

I’m sure we didn’t. I’m sure we didn’t.

 

Heather

But we sure had fun.

 

Kristina  11:54

Yeah, and it wasn’t busy like it is now. No back when we were being raised.

 

Heather  11:58

And there was no technology. Like we had a phone hooked to a wall with a cord.

 

Kristina  12:03

And some of us had a party line.

 

Heather  12:05

My cousins did, and that was fun.

 

Kristina  12:09

Yeah, we many times back in the day, homes had a parent or a parent figure who were in the home. They weren’t working outside of the home. And so things felt very different. 

 

Heather  12:22

Very different. And there was this village, right? That we will talk about like you knew your kid was going to be fed. They didn’t need to come home to eat. Somebody in the neighborhood was going to take that turn right? 

 

Kristina

Because the neighbors all knew each other. 

 

Heather

Making twelve sandwiches for all the kids hanging out and ramming around. And that parent at home oftentimes just pushed kids outside and were like, “See you at dinner!” And that’s how it went. 

 

Kristina  12:46

So the world is different now than it was when we were raised. And we grew up in very happy, healthy homes. We were very fortunate. Not everybody had that, right? So some of us come into parenting with an experience of being parented that carries with it some pain.

 

Heather  13:07

Absolutely. And some things to reconcile within ourselves.

 

Kristina  13:12

Right. So when we think about grandparents who parented their children in ways that left them feeling unsafe and unloved, then that’s a different dynamic of saying, “What exposure do I want my child to have to my parent their grandparent, if that relationship isn’t healthy?” So when we think about charting this new course, and whether that’s with parents who raised you with love and great affection, or parents that didn’t, what are some of the key things that we need to remember? What are the critical things we need to remember?

 

Heather  13:52

I think the biggest thing for so many parents is just the open communication. And that gets really hard, because, again, we will always be our parent’s child. And sometimes when we’re in that space, we can just become six years old so quickly. And it gets hard to assert ourselves with our parents. So it’s about communication. It’s about setting boundaries. And the common things that we hear come up so so frequently that are points of contention: gifts. “My parent just wants to buy all of the things for Christmas or birthday or just any day of the week…”

 

Kristina  14:40

Or I have friends that you know it’s like, “Well, of course, we make Easter baskets for the grandchildren.” I think we didn’t even have Easter baskets growing up. And yet, grandparents are doing these things for their grandchildren. And in some ways, it kind of robs the experience from the parents. 

 

Heather  15:00

It does. It does, and that’s what it feels like. But that’s not the intention. The intention is to do something beautiful and have this wonderful experience. And I think maybe they recognize the busyness that they didn’t have in the same way?

 

Kristina  15:17

I distinctly remember when Grace was maybe two, my mom bought her a beautiful Christmas dress. 

 

Heather

I remember this-

 

Kristina

And I was really mad. I was really mad about it. And that seemed so silly. What a generous gift for my mom to buy this beautiful dress for my daughter. It was a beautiful gesture and a lovely gift, but I wanted to pick out my daughter’s Christmas dress. 

 

Heather  15:46

I had the same thing with a baptismal gown for my daughter. Like, we had very different ideas, right? Spanning generations have different tastes.

 

Kristina  15:56

And I know that I was upset. And I’m sure that hurt my mom because she was doing this out of love. And I think that’s one of the key things that we need to remember is that we all love the children. 

 

Heather  16:10

Yes, that is a very important key thing to remember. And it’s also important for us to remember like you have a different perspective on it now that you have distance from it. But when we’re in it, it feels like a bit of an assault.

 

Kristina  16:29

Well, like you just stole that. I now will not be able to buy my daughter’s first Christmas dress because it was already purchased for her. And so, again, I mean, I’m acting like a child, right? Like “I don’t want you to buy her a dress,” which is so childish. And yet there was something about- 

 

Heather  16:48

Well and you had waited a really long time to be a mom, a really long time. And so it felt like a bit of a robbing of an experience. 

 

Kristina  16:58

So the intention behind whatever it is, if it’s a gift, if it’s something else, and the way it’s received is not always the same.

 

Heather  17:07

And again, because we’re family, it’s not a co-worker, it’s not an acquaintance, it’s a family member. All of our everything – our past, our present, what we believe for the future –  is all wound in it differently, because it’s our family. And that’s why I think the stepping away from it and gaining a larger perspective is really, really hard. Would you agree? 

 

Kristina

I absolutely agree. 

 

Heather

I think that’s really tricky when it’s our family, especially a parent. It just feels bigger.

 

Kristina  17:41

Right. And, again, if we’re reduced to being a child in that interaction with our parent, it’s hard to even contradict them for some of us.

 

Heather  17:49

And so it’s really important to remember the parent child role is a lifelong role in positioning, right? But how can we get to a place of mutual respect and an understanding? So let’s go back to our common points of contention: gifts. We’ve talked about gifts we hear about a lot. Another big one is: where are we going to spend the holidays? 

 

Kristina  18:15

Oh yes. Oh my Yes. And especially if you have a bigger family.

 

Heather  18:22

Or a divorced family. Both of my husband, divorces both sides, so with just our parents, it’s four parties.

 

Kristina  18:30

Yeah. “But I want you here with me on Christmas,” right? 

 

Heather  18:34

And we always did that on Christmas Eve. So it’s sometimes not understanding as our family grows and we bring in, you know, a daughter-in-law and a son-in-law who are dealing with a whole other family unit. And even though we always did this on Christmas Eve, it’s a family tradition within my own sweet little family, and then we did this within my own sweet little family. On Christmas Day, we can’t have all of the time, right? We can’t take all of the time for that one family unit, because now we have all of these other in-laws in there, and so we have other considerations. 

 

Kristina  19:14

My mom did a beautiful thing, so many beautiful things, but one of the things she said as we were growing up was “The day is not important. It’s the gathering.”

 

Heather  19:24

And that is what my husband and I have always said. We have two boys. We know how this goes. My husband came from a family of two boys and a girl. The boys tend to oftentimes go with their spouse, and we’ve always said, because it was so hard for us, coming from divorced families, at first, to have to go to all of those places and have four parties with just our parents alone. And then, if there was any extended gatherings, there’s just not enough time. And when you have little kids, they are tired. Right? Or overstimulated. 

 

Kristina  20:02

I have a lot of friends who have two Thanksgivings on the same day.

 

Heather  20:07

Yep. And we had to set a boundary with that and say, “We will not. We will not do that,” because at that point, it doesn’t feel like you’re able to enjoy, right? Because it just becomes harried and chaotic, at least it did for us. And so we set a boundary around: we will go one place. We can have another celebration at another time. But it’s all those things of talking that through and figuring that out. Another big thing that we hear from a lot of parents is screen time. “I don’t want my child, my young child, on my parents smartphone or on an iPad or on a device.” Or as a babysitter to be in front of a screen. And they don’t respect that. Or they don’t understand that. And they just think it’s no big deal. And they know my child loves it. And of course, they love it, right? But the parent is saying “It doesn’t mean it’s what’s best for them.” And it’s something that I’ve said I don’t want my child to experience, and yet it keeps coming up.

 

Kristina  21:11

Well, and I think a piece of that could be that as our parents age, they don’t have the same stamina that they had when they were getting- and those little ones, especially if you have, you know, more than one, that a grandparent may be spending time with. It can be exhausting. 

 

Heather  21:31

It can be exhausting and really loud. Yep. Really stimulating.

 

Kristina  21:35

So sometimes a screen is used just to give Grandma a break.

 

Heather  21:40

So it requires, again, zooming out and stepping back from the situation and saying, am I setting my parents up well, for success? Is this a reasonable ask, and what can we flex on? What can we mutually agree upon? And sometimes it’s just educating and saying “I didn’t know either, but I’ve learned about the dopamine dump.” Or “I’ve learned about the effects of blue light and what that has for vision and all different things,” just educating.

 

Kristina  22:08

And to complicate the matter further, especially in this area we live in, West Michigan, there are many, many, many grandparents who are part of the childcare plan for their grandchildren.

 

Heather  22:20

They pick up at preschool. They provide lunch. They’re the childcare provider until after parents are out of work.

 

Kristina  22:28

There’s a lot of that going on, which makes things then especially tricky, because you don’t just get to be grandma. Yeah, you’re grandma, and it’s a dual role. It is a dual role, and that can be tricky, and you’re a childcare provider. So other things that come up and can be points of contention are the things that we eat. It’s so fun as a grandparent or, I mean, “I just sugar them up and send them home.” Being the auntie, right? And being and bringing in all of that, oh, all the good stuff that it’s not good stuff, but showering the children, my nieces and nephews, with that type of thing, because it made me happy. It made them happy, and I wanted to be their favorite.

 

Heather  23:07

And you didn’t have to deal with the consequences of that action.

 

Kristina  23:12

Nope, because I got to go home. Yep. So true. Another point of contention can be discipline. That’s a biggie. It is a biggie, and we know so much more now than we did then about the impact of discipline and punishment and what it has to do with our attachment and the long term well being and mental health of children. So we know more now, and many of us are doing it differently than our parents raised us and disciplined us so it can look weak, right?

 

Heather  23:47

Yeah, it’s hard for me to hear that it looks weak. I get it. I would say it looks different, because I know how much work it requires, right? So when it’s like, it’s weak, it’s like, “Oh, but it’s so much work, right?”

 

Kristina  24:02

But it’ll be things like, “Are you gonna let her talk to you? Then, I mean, “I would have never let you get away with that.” And so in that way, it seems maybe not weak. It seems a little soft. Yeah. So coming to an understanding about that with your parents and saying, “We might not agree on this.” I don’t need to go to war over it, right? With my parent, right? I can say “We may not agree on this. This is my understanding. This is what we’re doing to raise our children. And I really hope that you can help me and support me in that, because this parenting gig is tough.”

 

Heather  24:44

And it requires so much support and so much understanding. And that discipline piece is one that is pretty drastically different in a lot of families, generation to generation, and it can be a real point of contention. 

 

Kristina  25:02

Yeah, another thing is developmentally appropriate, behavioral expectations, right? Understanding what a four year old is able to do versus what an eight year old is able to do. I know we we’ve spoken about this before, but manipulation is a pretty high level cognitive skill. And yet, we as adults and parents and grandparents can think, “Oh, they are manipulating me.” And, you know, place on children behavioral expectations that aren’t appropriate to where they are developmentally. So sharing that kind of information. And we want to do it in a way that is so respectful, yes, because what you don’t want to communicate inadvertently is you didn’t know, but this isn’t the way it is. Or maybe you’ve forgotten that was my thing. It’s like, maybe you’ve forgotten what it’s like to have a fourteen month old and what that means. Or like, yeah, “I know you had us all potty trained by eighteen months because there was another baby coming. I have no idea how you did that. That did not work in my home with my child.” 

 

Heather  26:21

So but coming at it with respect and knowing we can all learn from one another, right? Like parent to child. Child to parent. If we approach it as a learner and to seek to understand it’s vastly different than if we’re at odds and we’re trying to prove we’re trying to win, right? Which is a very different way to approach a conversation. It’s, it’s being able to not pick up every “never let you get away with that.” You can just let that fall. We don’t have to respond to that in that moment. 

 

Kristina  26:58

Or, you could say, “You know what? You’re right. Mom, you never would have let me get away with that you’re right.

 

Heather  27:04

And to be able to say: “This is why.” Give the why. And if we can just have that type- and not let all of that past kind of from our childhood creep back in and tap us. Ooh, that gets so tricky once we’re activated in our emotion center, right?

 

Kristina  27:24

But, I mean, our parents, they didn’t know that we were dehydrated, right? It’s just the way it was. They didn’t worry about the mayonnaise and the rusty lunchbox.

 

Heather  27:32

We had the healthiest guts of all time. I did. It’s all that warm mayonnaise. 

 

Kristina  27:38

We consumed a lot of things we shouldn’t have probably. We certainly weren’t sanitizing our hands all the time.

 

Heather  27:42

We were in dirt. Yeah, a lot, a lot. 

 

Kristina  27:45

So it was different. And they did the best they could. My parents were amazing. 

 

Heather  27:54

Not everybody has that experience, and what you in those moments of the hard you can go back to, “Oh man, my childhood was so great for so many reasons.” You can reassure your parents in those moments of, “Oh, it was so great. And this is what I love, specifically about it. “ So you can get to a better place. And you can get back in our frontal lobe and back in our logical brain versus our emotion center, and joining them in “Yeah, you’re a great parent.” 

 

Kristina  28:23

Because it’s not me against you. No, we’re together, right? We are allies and adversaries, nurturing this little person. For many of them, the first time they have a grandchild, they’ve not done this before. They don’t know what it means to be a grandparent yet, but the reminder of, they love you.

 

Heather  28:41

They love this beautiful child. No one is trying to irritate anyone on purpose. If we can come to the table and be on the same side of the table with that understanding, the child’s gonna win. And we do need to say, we also have to remember, it’s not easy for our child to see the people they love in opposition. That’s a tricky spot. And so I always had to think, and I still do, “What do I want to model for my children in this moment?” Because by golly in a blink it is going to be my adult child there. And I’m going to be in my parents’ seat. And how do I want my adult child to regard me? Because this is going to repeat. 

 

Kristina  29:33

Yes, it’s cyclical. And they’ll know more. When our children have children, they’ll know more than we do now. And we’re doing the best we can. I think something that’s important, Heather, that I just want to point out is that we need to be very careful when choosing the hill that we’re willing to die on.

 

Heather  29:52

Absolutely. We are not going to die on every hill. We’ve got to let some of them fall away

 

Kristina  29:57

Absolutely. And we need to be able to do that in a loving way. So if you do have to have a difficult conversation with your parent about something that you’re doing differently, and they’re having a difficult time doing that. So let’s just say we’re choosing to speak with words that are not shaming to a child, and we use empathy and understanding. So we don’t say, “You know, knock it off. I’ll give you something to cry about.” We don’t do any of that kind of stuff. And if our parents are still doing that, then we get to have a hard conversation with them. But to go in with this is going to be a tricky conversation, and just call it out.

 

Heather  30:36

Yeah, call it out. And this isn’t going to be easy to hear, right? But you can do it. Yeah, we love each other, and we care for each other, and we can talk about anything. And all of a sudden they’re like, “Oh, yeah, we can. You taught me that, mom.” And then, saying to them, “I need you.” That’s not manipulation to say “You taught me that, Mom.” It’s just a reminder how great they did. 

 

Kristina  30:59

Yes. “We can do this, and I need your help.” 

 

Heather  31:04

Because they want to help. They do they want to know that they’re still relevant, right?

 

Kristina  31:08

And you can say to them, “I know you don’t agree with this, I know. So it’s really hard. This is a line that I’m not willing to cross. And I want you to have this relationship with your grandchild. They love you. And your presence in their life is so important.” Intergenerational relationships, very important and precious,

 

Heather  31:32

And “can you join me in holding this boundary? Can you see the long view of what I’m trying to accomplish here? Will you join me and help bring this child up in that way?”

 

Kristina  31:48

Yeah, I love it. Grandparents are a treasure.

 

Heather  31:52

They sure are. And they are to be treated as a treasure. Yeah, they are and regarded as a treasure. 

 

Kristina  32:02

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  32:08

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  32:13

Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina 

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina  32:19

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell. 

 

Heather  32:30

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  32:38

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on, outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects. 

 

Heather  32:51

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land, and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 17: Mindfulness of Schedules

 

In this episode, Kristina and Heather dive into the art of managing our daily schedules while keeping life balanced and fulfilling. Drawing from their own experiences of juggling grad school, parenting, and all the chaos in between, they chat about the importance of creating space (aka margins) to avoid burnout. They share how hectic schedules can take a toll on sleep, relationships, and overall well-being, and offer tips on how to bring more mindfulness and intention into our routines.

They also discuss the crucial benefits of getting outdoors, connecting with nature, and building meaningful family rituals—no grand gestures needed! By the end, Kristina and Heather remind us that a balanced life, with time for both rest and play, isn’t just essential for our own health, but also for modeling healthy habits for our kids and strengthening family bonds.

This conversation is all about practical advice and a refreshing take on finding harmony in a busy world!

 

“…as we raise a family, change is always coming. And so if we’re not intentional about going back to those foundations in every new season of life and growth and endeavor, we can get off track real fast…”

 

Daily Rhythm and Schedule Management

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of their daily schedule and rhythm.

Kristina reflects on her busy grad school life and the challenges of managing a packed schedule.

They talk about the need for margins in their schedules to avoid feeling overwhelmed.

Kristina mentions the cultural evolution of children’s activities and the parental guilt associated with not providing every opportunity.

 

“Because if I say ‘yes’ to that, I have to say ‘no’ to something that’s already on the plate, because the plate is as full as the plate can get. And that doesn’t mean every square inch of that plate is covered. It means that, in my world, none of my food touches. So there’s enough space on my plate to allow for the margins in life. And what’s also included on my plate is the commitment and time and space for my family.”

 

Balancing Commitments Inside and Outside the Home

Kristina emphasizes the need to decide on commitments inside and outside the home.

They discuss the impact of a busy schedule on sleep and relationships.

Kristina highlights the importance of meaningful connections and the quality of life.

They talk about the societal pressure to be “busy” and the brain chemistry involved in maintaining a fast pace.

 

“ And we talk about the pace of nature and how, for our early childhood, kids, in particular, their natural pace matches the pace of nature. And it’s just slower…And there’s such beauty, observing the pace that the young child has…they can’t go faster than their skills and abilities…unless you just do it for them, because it’s taking too long, right? And then they’re just frustrated because, developmentally, they want to do things, right? They want to lead. They want to have initiative, right? But the way we’ve

scheduled our life maybe doesn’t allow for it.”

 

Mindfulness and Intentionality in Daily Life

Heather and Kristina discuss the concept of mindfulness and intentionality in managing our schedules.

They talk about the importance of returning to foundational values in different life stages.

Kristina mentions the cultural expectation of “busyness” and the need to resist it.

They emphasize the power of saying “no” and not conforming to societal norms.

 

“You should sit in nature twenty minutes a day. Unless you’re busy, then you should sit for an hour.” – A quote Heather shares, from @becomingminimalist

 

The Impact of Nature on Mindfulness

Heather discusses the deep benefits of spending time in nature for mindfulness.

They talk about the slower pace of nature and its influence on their lives.

Heather shares how observing the pace of nature has helped her slow down.

They mention the importance of teaching children to appreciate the rhythms of nature.

 

“And really…kids need two things: attachment and connection to primary caregivers, and play.”

 

Balancing Children’s Activities and Family Time

Kristina and Heather discuss the challenges of balancing children’s activities and family time.

They talk about the importance of not overcommitting and allowing for margins in the schedule.

Kristina shares her experience with her daughter Grace and the decision to not participate in certain activities.

They emphasize the need to model balance and mindfulness for their children.

 

“I used to do date nights with each one of my kids. And they were just simple little things where we would go. It was one on one time, which felt so special when you’re in the mix of three. And it was in the evening, which also felt special. So we would do those things. And they weren’t expensive. And they weren’t elaborate. It was just time.”

 

The Role of Traditions and Rituals in Family Life

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of traditions and rituals in family life.

They talk about simple traditions like the red plate at dinner and their significance.

They emphasize the value of small, meaningful moments over grand gestures.

 

“There was a part of it that I was jumping up and down and very happy, but it was harder for my husband to really kind of wrap his head around that. And reason being because we can get our own emotions sometimes tied up in our kids’ stuff. And so it had to be the reminder of ‘This is hers to decide.’ And it seems like she’s got pretty solid logic behind it. So it’s really important for us to be mindful of what we’re tying into and living through in our kids…”

 

Managing Expectations and Setting Boundaries

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of managing expectations and setting boundaries.

They talk about the challenges of creating traditions without feeling overwhelmed.

Kristina shares her experience with daddy-daughter days and the importance of one-on-one time.

They emphasize the need to be mindful of the traditions they create and the impact on their family.

 

“And I think we’re all going to have times in our life where maybe the crowd is doing one thing. And you just need to about face and walk away. And so I always wanted my kids to be able to have the courage to do that.”

 

Teaching Children to Balance and Prioritize

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of teaching children to balance and prioritize.

They talk about the value of modeling a balanced life for their children.

Heather shares her experience with her daughter Ava and the decision to step away from certain commitments.

They emphasize the importance of teaching children to recognize and celebrate small achievements.

 

“…parents will come to me and say, ‘But they want to do all of those things.’ And I get that too. I personally think it’s part of our job as a parent balance, to teach our children that it can be an awesome opportunity, and we can still say “no” to it, because these other things are our family values. It’s what we know is important to have balance in our lives, so that and we can’t get too tied into it.”

 

The Importance of Rest and Downtime

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of rest and downtime in their lives.

They talk about the impact of a busy schedule on their ability to recharge and enjoy family time.

Heather shares her experience with her husband and the importance of having a “voice of reason” when it comes to commitments.

They emphasize the need to create space for rest and relaxation in their daily routines.

 

“…ensuring that we have…time in our family to just be and to celebrate the little things…And to teach the balance. To teach kids how to balance. Because it’s a skill they’re going to need always…It really comes back to mindfulness. Comes back to your priorities. Comes back to centering yourself…And how much more joy-filled is the entire journey when we’re able to wrestle our schedules, have things intentionally present, and intentional open spaces…make sure we have enough time to be outside to reap those benefits, to play,  and to get enough sleep.”

 

Reflecting on Personal Values and Foundations

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of reflecting on personal values and foundations.

They talk about the need to be mindful of the commitments they make and their impact on their lives.

Kristina shares her experience with her career path and the importance of following her true calling.

They emphasize the value of living a life that aligns with our personal values and foundations.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Mindfulness of Schedules/Benefits of Down Time

 

Impact of Overscheduling on Skill Development

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

 

In prior episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In a prior episode, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel

  1. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood

Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard

Louv:

Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin

N 

 

Natural

Start Alliance 

 

Children

& Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

 

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive

functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s

Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 17: Mindfulness of Schedules

 

Kristina  00:00

Hey everyone. Today, Heather and I are talking about something we know all too well: how to keep our schedule from completely taking over our lives.

 

Heather  00:09

We’ve all been there – balancing family commitments, activities, work and everything else. Today, we’re sharing some of our favorite, simple strategies that really help us find balance and connection, 

 

Kristina  00:22

And it’s not just about checking off tasks. We’re talking mindfulness, intentionality and why getting outside and soaking up some nature is a total game changer when life feels overwhelming.

 

Heather  00:33

It’s all about finding that sweet spot of balance so we can model healthy habits for our kids and keep our family time strong. 

 

Kristina  00:40

So get ready for some practical tips and a little humor as we talk about how to make space for rest, play and real connection in our busy lives.

 

Heather  00:52

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  00:55

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  01:09

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  01:31

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  01:37

Let’s hit the trails!

 

Heather  01:44

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  01:56

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives. 

 

Heather  02:04

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. So today, we’re really going to talk about what we want to commit to outside of our homes, and what are we going to commit to inside of our home? How are we going to live? What is our daily rhythm going to be? Who is in control of our schedule?

 

Kristina  02:29

Yeah, should be us.

 

Heather  02:33

And what do we want to be mindful of as a family? How full do we want our schedule to be? How busy do we want to be? How much time do we want to just have together as a unit? Yeah, so Kristina, talk to us about why this topic is so important.

 

Kristina  02:51

Oh, well, you know, we just talked about sleep not that long ago, and that, you know, most of us adults are running around sleep deprived. And why is that? I think this has a lot to do with it. Absolutely. We’re busy, and we can’t be our best selves when we are not getting enough sleep and when we don’t have the margins in our life to make those meaningful connections with our children, with our partners, if we have partners, with our village. That’s really important for our quality of life, the quality of our relationships, and there’s just no time. How many times do you say to somebody, “Oh, I haven’t seen you in months, but we should get together.” And then the next time you see them, “Oh, it’s been months. We should get together.” And you’re not just saying that because you feel like you need to say it.

 

Heather  03:42

No, it’s not disingenuous or insincere. 

 

Kristina  03:46

No, you really want to see this person, but the schedule of your life doesn’t allow it.

 

Heather  03:49

And so often, I think it’s so true, we don’t realize until we’re there, yes, because our culture, it’s just like, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. And I think there is a brain chemistry component to that, dopamine, dopamine, adrenaline, adrenaline, faster, faster, faster, faster. Oh, that just makes me stressed out just sitting here doing that, yes, and then I will find like, why am I? Why? Why am I doing this?

 

Kristina  04:18

And then I get crabby because there’s too much.

 

Heather  04:21

Yep. And my husband will be the voice of reason oftentimes, and be like, “You’re making your own problems. Like, what are you doing?” 

 

Kristina  04:28

Yeah. I just made myself crazy by saying “yes” to too many things. Yep. I love that you used the word a little bit ago, of “mindfulness.” And I think intentionality, and mindfulness about what we will allow into our lives…

 

Heather  04:46

Kind of goes back to our foundation.

 

Kristina  04:50

It does, and it’s easy to lose sight of that. It is midst of-

 

Heather  04:55

Well, because as we raise a family, change is always coming. And so if we’re not intentional about going back to those foundations and every new season of life and growth and endeavor, we can get off track real fast, big time. So let’s talk about how we’re going to do this. How are we going to be mindful? How are we going to hem our schedule? How are we going to keep it reasonable for all of our sanity? 

 

Kristina  05:27

Yeah. So I don’t know if it’s because of when I was born or not, but I love a good consciousness raising and recognizing and acknowledging that we have a cult of busyness, and when we buy into it that’s crazymaking, and literally the intentionality and the mindfulness and the consciousness raising is: I don’t have to, even though that’s what my society and my culture is calling for me to do. I don’t have to. And being aware of it and then owning your own power to say, “Nope. Not playing. Not gonna play that game. That’s not the life we’re gonna live.” Yes, and I’m not going to, even if I was raised within the sickness. So I have the sickness within me. I will not model that and pass that on to my children.

 

Heather  06:25

Yes. And I think I have a tendency to be a go, go, go, go person. I’m pretty competitive, and I like to achieve. And my dear husband, nature boy extreme, won’t play. He will not play. And it’s so good for me to have him be that rock, to be like, “Absolutely not.” And he’s just definitive. And I’m like, “Okay.” And he’s like, “This is my Alamo.” Like, this is the hill. Like, no, we’re not playing. And that has been so good. 

 

Kristina  07:03

Oh, and we each need to have somebody with that voice in our village.

 

Heather  07:07

Yes. Because it’s the it’s the voice of reason. Certainty. Yeah, it’s even more than reason. It’s the voice of certainty. And it’s just the voice of extreme security. 

 

Kristina  07:21

Yeah. So I think for me, because I resist anybody attempting to control me. I think somebody just raising the question of, “Hmm, is that something you want to make space for in your life?” Because if I say “yes” to that, I have to say “no” to something that’s already on the plate, because the plate is as full as the plate can get. And that doesn’t mean every square inch of that plate is covered. It means that, in my world, none of my food touches. So there’s enough space on my plate to allow for the margins in life. And what’s also included on my plate is the commitment and time and space for my family.

 

Heather  08:03

Yeah, because life is too short to just always feel exasperated.

 

Kristina  08:08

Yes, and exhausted. 

 

Heather  08:11

So we like to say, in our preschool world, early childhood has a slow pace, right? We just-it’s impossible to go quickly with these little people, whether it’s a transition from outside to inside, because maybe there’s pelting rain and it’s sideways hitting them in the face and they’re wet, and they need right their outdoor gear to be changed…like you just don’t rush that. You have to know what you’re getting yourself into. You have to meet that pace, and there’s no point in rushing it, because it’s just going to be frustration on all fronts, right, right? And we talk about the pace of nature and how, for our early childhood, kids, in particular, their natural pace matches the pace of nature. And it’s just slower. And that has made a huge impact in my life with my work, because I’m a “go, go, go,” and I could really get into a task list and checking things off. And there’s such beauty in observing the pace that the young child has.

 

Kristina  09:22

Well nd I think just yet, as I’m hearing you talk about that, Heather, I’m aware of how much agitation comes along with trying to move children faster than they can move, “hurry, hurry, hurry,” not letting them do something on their own.

 

Heather  09:37

And how frustrating it is. Like they can’t, right? They can’t go faster than their skills and abilities. 

 

Kristina  09:44

Well, unless you just do it for them, because it’s taking too long, right? 

 

Heather  09:47

And then they’re just frustrated because, developmentally, they want to do things, right? They want to lead. They want to have initiative, right? But the way you’ve scheduled your life doesn’t allow.

 

Kristina  09:55

Doesn’t allow. I love the rhythms of nature that are so important for us to be attuned to. And when we get out of tune, you know, we’re not attuned to that –

 

Heather  10:07

It’s even like the seasons, right? Like we take the kids through seasons. And we’re on a 160 acre nature preserve, so to really be able to fully observe all of those seasons…Right now, we’re really in winter. And it’s just slower and quieter and darker. So they learn, like how the animals prepare for winter. They learn how there’s more sleep. They learn about heart rates. They learn about how you store food, all of those things. And really winter for us as adults is meant for some of those very same things. It’s meant for drawing closer, being in more, being in rest more. Not that we’re not going to be active and outside. That’s still very powerful and helpful for mental health and sleep, but it’s different. It’s different in the season of winter than it is in summer. You think about summer on a lakeshore tourist town, right? Where we live, right? And the pace of that versus right now. We’re just sleepier. Like everything is just sleepier and slower. And it feels really good. And that’s the pace of nature.

 

Kristina  11:24

It’s a really tender family time.

 

Heather  11:29

And I think as we come out of all of that sunshine and kind of that hurried, long-day summer, and we move into fall, which we had a gorgeous, warm, hard, really funny fall for a really long time, everybody’s just kind of ready to put their sweater on and to have the first snowfall. Yes, all of it, right? It’s just different and it brings us closer. 

 

Kristina  11:58

So you shared a quote recently something that you had read. Remind me what. That was so good. 

 

Heather  12:05

Yes, it said that we should sit in nature. We should make it our mission to sit in nature at least twenty minutes a day, unless we’re busy. And if we’re busy, we should try to sit in nature for an hour. It’s powerful. 

 

Kristina  12:23

It’s like mic drop. I love when you said, you know, twenty minutes. Sit with nature for twenty minutes. Unless you’re busy, “I don’t have time for that,” like, “Ah, then do it for an hour.” You need it even more.

 

Heather  12:41

So it’s what we’re gonna prioritize. Yep. How hurried are we going to be? How hurried are we going to make our children? 

 

Kristina  12:51

Yeah, and like you had said earlier, Heather, there are just so many opportunities, so many like we did motor movement with our children, kinder music, kinder music, yep. Do we want to start them in a sport, right? What about an art class? Oh, art is so good. And then what about being in a little choir? What about going to the library-

 

Heather  13:11

And really play, play, play. Kids need two things, attachment, connection to primary caregivers, and play,

 

Kristina  13:20

And then as they develop their skills as an only, or, you know, as my child was as an only, doing some of those things so that she could have this engagement with peers and begin learning some of those skills was important, but not too many. And boy, it was hard because I loved the darling art class, and I loved kinder music and I loved-

 

Heather  13:47

And you can get to all of them. We just don’t need to have them all at once, right? We’re gonna pick and choose. It’s like when my husband says, “This is my Alamo. We’re not doing this.” And I think to me, that was like I was able to go: permission given. Sometimes we just need the permission not to participate.

 

Kristina  14:07

Amen. And not to feel guilty that we didn’t-

 

Heather  14:12

No and then once you walk away from it, you can kind of Ppuff out your chest, and it feels a little empowering, like “we just did that.” We just walked away from that. Everybody else is doing it, but we just turned our backs and walked away.

 

Kristina  14:23

Yeah. So Grace is not a sporty kid. And there were times that my husband and I grieved that because of the, I mean, so many good things come from participating in team sports.

 

Heather  14:33

Especially when you’re an only 

 

Kristina  14:37

That’s not who Grace is. And I look at some of my friends who have- their children are not just involved in a sport, but in all sports. Like they do every single sport, both rec and school and so their life really is practices and games. 

 

Heather  15:00

Travel now, yeah, right? There’s so many things, right? 

 

Kristina  15:03

So it’s games. It’s practices. It’s travel, homework. Guess what? There’s no time for just being and just having dinner and just being. There’s not a big agenda. There’s not an agenda at all. We’re just here together in the same time and space, talking to each other, learning from each other, no time.

 

Heather  15:27

And it’s not to say that if you’re participating in some of this, it’s a bad thing. No, it’s just being mindful of, “How are we going to manage? How are we going to remain committed to our foundations?” This is my daughter, who we went away last year on a family vacation. She competes at a decently high level. She is an equestrian, and she trains a lot. And it requires a tremendous amount of work. And she has to have skin in the game. It’s an exceptionally expensive sport, so she has to work to earn some of this for her training. And she got away from it for a bit. She got out of that routine for like, a ten day stretch. And even as a fourteen year old, was like, “What am I doing? What am I doing?” And came back and sat we got home on a Saturday night and sat down with us, and was like, just dropped the bomb. I’m gonna be done with this. I’m not gonna do the show circuit this summer. I’m gonna-I mean, she was working with a trainer and all that. And was just like, “I’m done.” And it was a 180 and so, for a minute, we had to really wrap our heads around that. But I think even kids can get into it and not even feel it until they can step away from it for a bit, they’re living in the same culture, right?

 

Kristina  16:52

Thank you for saying that, Heather. Because I didn’t mean to imply that doing some of those things isn’t really wonderful. And parents will come to me and say, “But they want to do all of those things.” And I get that too. I personally think it’s part of our job as a parent balance, to teach our children that it can be an awesome opportunity, and we can still say “no” to it, because these other things are our family values. It’s what we know is important to have balance in our lives, so that and we can’t get too tied into it.

 

Heather  17:30

That was the thing for my husband and I. When Ava came to us with this thing, right? You’ve made an investment, pretty significant investment. She’s put a lot of time, a lot of training and 180 on us, and that was hard, sure. Harder for some of us than others. There was a part of it that I was jumping up and down and very happy, but it was harder for my husband to really kind of wrap his head around that and reason being because we can get our own emotions sometimes tied up in our kids stuff. And so it had to be the reminder of “this is hers to decide,” and it seems like she’s got pretty solid logic behind it. So it’s really important for us to be mindful of what we’re tying into and living through in our kids, right? 

 

Kristina  18:25

Yeah. So growing up, not necessarily in my family, but it was very cultural that if you started something, you must finish it. No quitters. Nobody quits. And even if you really want to quit, you do not quit because you made a commitment, and then you’re a quitter, right?

 

Heather  18:41

You’re going to be a quitter for the rest of your life, and nobody wants a quitter.

 

Kristina  18:45

So yeah, “a quitter for the rest of your life.” Oh, my word. So there are still an awful lot of us who feel that way. And so I want to be really careful when I talk about this. There is value in learning to persevere

 

Heather  19:00

Absolutely. And seeing your commitments through.

 

Kristina  19:04

Absolutely. Value in that too. I also personally think there’s value in learning when to quit, when to walk away. I used to think that you couldn’t start reading a book without finishing it. What? What? If I didn’t like the book, you can just stop reading it, like, be empowered to return the book to the library. You never have to finish it. You can quit on the book. You can start thinking, “I really want to learn how to be a pastry chef” and learn all these things, and get started and be like, “I actually don’t like it so much.”

 

Heather  19:41

I hate the smell of sugar. 

 

Kristina  19:45

Or for me, right? I did my undergrad. My major was biology. I was in a pre-med track. I was going to medical school. And that had been my dream since I was a child. That’s where I was headed. So I started having an inkling in my undergrad that this maybe wasn’t for me. I did some rotations in the hospital and really got in there, much closer to the work that I was thinking I was going to be doing, and thought “I actually am not super comfortable with like blood and mucus and things like that.” I just-and I thought, “Well, I’ll get used to it. I’ll get used to it. I mean, you don’t quit. This is what you’re doing. You don’t quit.” I saw it all the way through undergrad and graduated with a degree, and this whole trajectory that it’s like, “I’m actually going to quit on that.” I sure am, because that’s not where I’m being called. That’s not where my giftedness is. It’s not what I thought it was going to be, right? And I mean, whatever, 20/20, right? You can’t go back and redo the things. And I don’t want to be a person who lives with regret. However, had I had the courage to quit on pursuing medical school sooner, I would have had a much different experience in my undergraduate being able to really I mean- I fell in love with psychology courses, but I didn’t have time to take as many as I’d like to take, because I had to take all that science and math. So perseverance following through on commitments, important things. Also important to, with your child, talk about things and it actually being okay to not follow all the way through.

 

Heather  21:35

And I think we’re all gonna have times in our life where maybe the crowd is doing one thing. And you just need to about face and walk away. And so I always wanted my kids to be able to have the courage to do that.

 

Kristina  21:47

 So as we’re talking about, what do you fill your life with? Children are explorers by nature, and allowing them to explore different things and learn about themselves, and sometimes sticking it out and sometimes saying, “let’s look at this and make the wisest decision for you, for our family, with what we know now about whatever that activity is that we engaged in,” that’s just good consciousness raising and intentionality and mindfulness. I think as parents too, we can get kind of fooled into believing that it’s the really big gestures that are important to our kids, that, you know, we have to take this enormous vacation, and that’s what’s going to be the thing our kids remember forever. 

 

Heather  22:42

That’s not actually – It’s oftentimes the little things, the little rituals, I guess, is what they are that are built in, right? It’s the red plate at dinner, and what the red plate meant, it was the what are we reading? And we all brought our book to dinner and talked about what we’re reading. Or it’s the “Yeah, we were all headed to Disney,” but then so and so threw up on grandma, and that became the star of the show, not the $12,000 trip to Disney. It was just that, you know, Zack threw up on grandma, and then dad, after sea world gave grandma the cape and said, “Here, this is for the ride home. Enjoy.” Like, that’s what everybody remembers.

 

Kristina  23:27

I remember going on a trip as a kid. This is back in the day, when you’re like, in order to record a song, you would have to have your little tape recorder and wait for the song to be played on the radio and post my child on time. Okay, so my sisters and I were waiting for the song “I Can’t Fight This Feeling” any longer. So we’re waiting. We’re waiting in the car. We’re waiting for it to come on. Mom is driving and it comes on the radio, and we push play and record, and we’re- nobody’s breathing, nobody’s moving, we’re recording this on and all of a sudden my mom says, “Whew! I can’t fight this feeling any longer, either. I’ve really got to go. Where’s the next rest stop?” 

 

Heather  24:18

We’re gonna hear that while we’re roller skating in the basement forever.

 

Kristina  24:22

I have no idea where we were going. I have no idea what we did when we got there-

 

Heather  24:27

But mom couldn’t fight that feeling anymore.

 

Kristina  24:30

Never forget that. Nor will my sister. 

 

Heather  24:33

That’s what I’m talking about. You could have gone to the concert. No. Now you just remember your mom couldn’t fight that feeling anymore.

 

Kristina  24:44

That’s what it’s about. So true, the littler things. Doesn’t have to be the-

 

Heather  24:49

I think about you would come with us to the place where we would go in the summer frequently. Yeah, and do you remember that little I don’t know was it the army surplus store? You always stop at where, I don’t know, like, we would always get the goggles, because you needed to have seven pairs per kid, because they were, like, $3 and they were gonna break and leak, and you just had that backup. Yeah, and do you remember that hideous little, I don’t know it was a little stuffed around thing. 

 

Kristina  25:16

We called it “Mugley.” I think it was a monkey, but it was super ugly.

 

Heather  25:21

So we called it Mugley. And we would just hide it, like, just do these stupid things. I was like, “That thing is so ugly, I have to have it.” And so I bought it. It was $1 and I would like hide it in my boys’ underwear drawer. And then they’d find it. And they’d put it in my Vitamix. And then I would find it, and it just was this thing that kept going. It costs hardly any money.

 

Kristina  25:42

I remember coming into the living room and there’s Mugley going around on the ceiling fan.

 

Heather  25:47

Or like duct taped to the lid of the toilet. Like all the things, right? It just became this huge, like, one- upping thing. And they still talk about it. I still hide that stupid thing.

 

Kristina  26:00

And you never know when it’s gonna show up.

 

Heather  26:03

And then there it is and the delight that it brings, right? And then it’ll show up in my space. And it just keeps going. And so those things cost very little, but they’re the important things.

 

Kristina  26:14

I’ve said before, and I will say it again: You don’t have to make life a carnival for your child. Sometimes, at least for me, and I know I was older when I had Grace, I just had to make things reasonable. Just breathe it in and do what you can do and make it something you can manage. 

 

Heather  26:35

Because some people have Pinterest boards. Some people have Pinterest fail boards.

 

Kristina  26:42

And that’s okay. So when I think about some of the things that we can make ourselves crazy with in a schedule, those can be some of them we’ve talked before, about our dear sweet guardians. And you need to be really careful about the things that you do, because you may have just inadvertently started a tradition. Because they want everything to be a tradition every time. All the elaborate anything. They think we’re going to do this every single time. And sometimes you walk yourself right into a corner as a parent, because you could do it with one, but oh, two, and then there were three. Now there are four, and you can only put out so many Easter Bunny trails from their door, criss crossing through the home, all the way to their baskets before you’re like, “I have created this monster myself.” So being mindful about those types of things are important too.

 

Heather  27:38

Some of the sweet, little magical things. Vince has always done, Daddy-daughter, day with Grace, which is a sweet time where it’s just connection and routine and really time. It is time. Like that whole like, what is it? “How do you spell love to a child? T, I, M E.” It’s true.  It’s so true. I used to do date nights with each one of my kids. And they were just simple little things where we would go. It was one on one time, which felt so special when you’re in the mix of three. And it was in the evening, which also felt special. So we would do those things. And they weren’t expensive. And they weren’t elaborate. It was just time. I alluded to the red plate. You had told me about this. And I did this in my home. I had never heard of it, but-

 

Kristina  28:29

I grew up with a red plate. So growing up I think it was my grandma that gave it to us. We were a red plate, a red bowl, and a red cup. And if something special had happened for somebody in the family, as the table was being set for dinner, that red plate would appear at the place that you sat at the dinner table. And sometimes you had no idea what it was there for, but it was a way that my parents could acknowledge and the family could celebrate something good that had happened. Maybe it was a specific kindness. Maybe it was you done well on a project that you had going. Maybe it was because you got a job. It could be lots of different things. But simply having the red plate and the red cup and the red bowl was a celebration. Again, doesn’t need to be a carnival. But boy, when you came down and saw that red plate at your spot, or if you were setting the table and mom said, “Put the red plate at John’s spot,” you were like, “Oh, what happened? What are we celebrating?”

 

Heather  29:37

And it’s really fun to celebrate those things for character, recognizing things. Generosity. Anything that you want to build. It’s just fun to do that for character building stuff. 

 

Kristina  29:54

It’s a lovely little family tradition and very special. And not like the red plate’s out every night. No, it’s, it’s a special thing that would come around maybe, like, once a month, and it’s not on your schedule.

 

Heather  30:05

No, you just whenever-

 

Kristina  30:10

And the beautiful thing is, it’s noticing, making sure that you’re noticing those things within your family. Yeah, and then celebrate. 

 

Heather  30:18

And then it’s fun when the kids pick up on it. And they’re like, “Oh, get the red plate.” Yeah, you know. And then it’s very fun to do that. You couldn’t ask for the red plate. No, that’s not what it was about. Oh, no, certainly you could notice it for somebody else, and that’s part of the sweetness of it.

 

Kristina  30:38

So when we think about our schedules, Heather, it really goes back to: what’s our foundation? Right? With the things that we allow in our lives, in our schedules, who’s it serving? 

 

Heather  30:55

What are we giving our time to? What are we allowing in?

 

Kristina  30:59

Is it in line with our values and foundations? And how much stress will participating in this thing bring for all. And keeping that commitment to saying “yes,” being involved in some of those things are really good, ensuring that we have margins around the things and time in our family to just be and to celebrate the little things-

 

Heather  31:28

And to teach the balance. To teach kids how to balance, because it’s a skill they’re going to need always.

 

Kristina  31:37

And if we infect them with that sickness of busyness, then it will be just that much harder for them to step away from it. If we can model stepping away from it that kind of insulates them against that really illness, that sickness of busyness, moving into their lives. So way back in the beginning, you said we need to be mindful.

 

Heather  32:00

It really comes back to mindfulness, comes back to your priorities, comes back to centering yourself.

 

Kristina  32:09

And how much more joy-filled is the entire journey when we’re able to wrestle our schedules, have things intentionally present and intentional open spaces.

 

Heather  32:21

I make sure we have enough time to be outside to reap those benefits, to play,  and to get enough sleep.

 

Kristina  32:31

I love it. 

 

Heather

Me too.

 

Kristina

I’m so glad we talked about this. 

 

Heather

Me too.

 

Kristina

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather

32:45

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina  32:50

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell. 

 

Heather  33:07

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  33:15

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  33:27

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land, and nature. To learn more and get involved go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 16: Sleep And Bedtime Routines

 

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges of sleep in children and the importance of establishing a consistent bedtime routine. They share personal anecdotes, highlighting the differences in their children’s sleep habits. Kristina recounts her daughter’s struggle with sleep due to chronic ear infections and the misguided advice she received. Heather emphasizes the significance of sleep for brain development and the impact of sleep deprivation on parents. They recommend creating a calming environment, avoiding screens before bed, and using sleep signals like mellow music. They also discuss how co-parenting and persistence are crucial for establishing effective sleep routines.

 

“Bedtime…The research shows that there are more significant times in the day that are significant to the child for attachment and connection and – ding, ding, ding – if bedtime isn’t one of the times!”

 

The Importance of Sleep and Its Challenges

  • Kristina emphasizes the significance of sleep and the frequent questions parents have about it.
  • Heather mentions that sleep is a skill that not everyone is naturally good at.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the differences in children’s sleep habits – how some kids are natural sleepers like Heather’s son, Luke –  and the challenges of dealing with poor sleepers.

 

“…There are some people that are just naturally better sleepers than others… teaching my daughter how to sleep was definitely a process, and was not short. It went on. It had some hang time as she learned to become a better sleeper and built that skill…”

 

Personal Experiences with Sleep Deprivation

  • Kristina recounts her daughter’s difficult sleep habits and the chronic ear infections that contributed to her poor sleep.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the bad advice they received about letting their children cry it out.
  • Kristina shares how they eventually figured out that her daughter needed ear tubes, which helped her sleep significantly.
  • Heather explains the importance of sleep for brain cleansing and the impact of sleep deprivation on cortisol levels.

 

“One of the things that I hear more frequently than I did two decades ago was that early evening time was the only time the children were going to see one of the parents because of work schedules, right? They were off to work before the children got up. They were returning home during the time that I would recommend they begin transitioning to sleep…

 

There’s also another culprit here, right? There’s these smartphones that didn’t used to exist, which is a whole other thing for parents to manage, right? Because they’re always connected to work. And there’s this whole other thing that we have kids on screens, which impacts, we know, sleep and brain stimulation as well…So there’s actually a lot to think about when you’re trying to set up what is the routine going to look like as we shepherd our child to sleep? And how long is that going to take, and the intentionality behind it.”

 

Establishing Sleep Routines and Transitioning to Sleep

  • Kristina talks about the importance of a consistent sleep routine and the concept of transitioning to sleep.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges of managing children’s energy levels before bedtime, especially with the influence of screens.
  • Kristina mentions the significance of bedtime as a time for attachment and connection.
  • Heather and Kristina share strategies for creating a calming bedtime environment, such as dimming lights and playing soft music.

 

 

“So we very intentionally established some sleep signals…We chose a CD that we could live with for the rest of forever. And we played the same CD every night as soon as we were done reading books. So there would be this softening of the family. The softening of the lights. The quieting of the voices. The turning down the energy level. And we would go upstairs, prepare her in her pajamas, brush teeth, move into her bedroom, where we had a rocking chair, and the rocking chair is where we’d read books every night. Reading those books while she rocked was such a tender time…And it’s great connection time. When the books were done, and we read three, because I needed a boundary on it, and I was exhausted, and I needed to get my own downtime. After those books were done, we would turn on the CD, I would swing her lovey over my shoulder, and that became her signal to put her head down on my shoulder. And it was time to move toward her bed. So I also had a rule of three for the CD. I would rock her through three songs, and then she would be put into her crib, and that was the pattern we established.”

 

The Role of Parents and Co-Parenting in Bedtime Routines

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the impact of parents’ energy levels and routines on their children’s sleep.
  • Kristina shares how her husband learned to help transition their daughter to sleep without energizing her.
  • Kristina emphasizes the importance of co-parenting and taking turns with responsibilities to maintain consistency.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the benefits of having a bedtime routine and the importance of persistence in establishing it.

“Connection is so important to them, right? And if we can just sometimes pause and say, ‘Why does this behavior make sense?’ We are asking these little people to go this huge stretch of time without us, without any encouragement. And it’s the darkest time of the twenty-four hour period, right? So if you can think of it that way, it allowed me, even when tired, to have more empathy. Of course, they want to connect. Of course they might need a little reassurance, a little rub on the back. “You’re okay. I’m here. It’s time to go night night.” Those types of things I think are normal. It doesn’t mean they’re easy when we’re so tired.”

 

Addressing Children’s Bedtime Concerns and Emotional Needs

  • Heather recalls her daughter’s specific bedtime requests and how she handled them with empathy.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of connection and reassurance for children at bedtime.
  • Heather shares her strategy of having “mom and dad time” to reinforce the importance of their relationship.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the need for children to feel loved and secure before going to sleep.

 

“It’s never too late to start a new routine for bedtime. Never too late. And once you do that has a lasting impact. And it takes time…they begin to learn how to diminish their energy as they move towards sleep, because it’s been their pattern from the time you started this routine so that becomes to feel normal to them. I’m not going to choose to engage in these activities that rev me all up. I know that the screens are turned off an hour before I go to bed. I know that the music I’m going to listen to is going to be more calming, and it ushers in a much more peaceful time. Doesn’t mean there won’t be bombs going off sometimes, but it takes time…Well, we’ve said for years, if you haven’t tried something for three weeks, you haven’t really tried it.”

 

The Impact of Consistency and Persistence in Bedtime Routines

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of consistency and repetition in establishing a bedtime routine.
  • Heather returns to the analogy of a ship to explain the process of course correction and the need for patience.
  • Kristina emphasizes the need for persistence and co-parenting support to maintain a consistent bedtime routine.

 

“So that transitioning to sleep and thinking about shepherding your child toward rest, reminding them as you put them down that they are loved no matter what, that you are so grateful to be their parent that you can hardly believe that you’re fortunate enough to have them in your family. Okay? And to let their little heads hit the pillow with those thoughts dancing in their mind is beautiful.”

 

Strategies for Handling Bedtime Challenges and Emotional Regulation

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of understanding children’s emotional needs and providing reassurance.
  • Heather shares her strategy of using deep breaths to help her daughter fall asleep.
  • Kristina and Heather reiterate the importance of maintaining a calm and consistent approach to bedtime.
  • Heather shares a humorous anecdote about her daughter eating the blown kisses from her mother, an example of connection rituals that can help at bedtime and times of transition.

 

“They become these little philosophers that emerge in the nighttime and, really, what they’re looking for is connection. It’s not about needing one more drink. We can’t possibly give them enough water at night. It’s not that they need to do one more thing. It’s really that they’re seeking this connection.”

 

“I would say to her, ‘You do your deep breaths and get down to the business of going to sleep. I’m going to come in ten minutes and check on you.’ And that was enough for her, of like, you’re coming back. And I would usually nine out of ten times go back and she’d be out, right? Once in a while she’d be awake. And I’d just peek in and wave and blow a kiss. The blowing a kiss from afar is a fun thing…No words, right? At this point, we aren’t doing any words, just loving looks, maybe a little blown kiss, maybe a little encouragement of ‘you’ve got this,’ right?”

 

The Role of Attachment and Connection in Bedtime Routines

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of attachment and connection during bedtime.
  • Kristina emphasizes the need for children to feel loved and secure before going to sleep.
  • Heather shares how she and her husband modeled a strong relationship for their children through “mom and dad time.”
  • Kristina and Heather wrap up the podcast by encouraging parents to persist in establishing a consistent bedtime routine.
  • Heather shares her final thoughts on the importance of connection and reassurance for children at bedtime.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Notes: 

 

Sleep, Rest, and Nature’s Role in Better Sleep:


FastStats: Sleep in Children | Sleep | CDC

 

Sleep Deprivation: What It Is, Symptoms, Treatment & Stages

 

Connecting Kids and Nature: Health Benefits and Tips

 

Children Who Play Outside Sleep Better At Night

 

6 Reasons Children Need to Play Outside

 

Nature can reset your circadian rhythm and bring better sleep

 

 

In prior episodes, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In a prior episode, Heather and Kristina reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel

  1. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood

Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard

Louv:

Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive

functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s

Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 16: Sleep And Bedtime Routines

 

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re talking about one of the biggest struggles parents face: sleep and bedtime. 

 

Kristina  00:06

Oh, we’ve been working with families for years, and we know just how tricky sleep can be for both kids and parents. Seriously, sleep was brutal for us when Grace was young. 

 

Heather  00:18

Oh, I remember that. And let’s be real, bedtime is often the time of day when kids turn into these little philosophers. They pull out all the stops and ask all the questions.

 

Kristina  00:32

Totally. It’s like the day is winding down. They’re tired, and suddenly they’re these really deep thinkers contemplating the mysteries of life.

 

Heather  00:41

And that’s also when the bedtime struggles begin. So we’re going to share some tips on how to create a consistent bedtime routine that can help kids wind down and get the sleep they need. 

 

Kristina  00:52

Sleep is so important, and yet it’s one of those things that doesn’t come naturally to all kids. So we’ll talk about our personal experiences with sleep struggles, share some practical strategies and give some ideas that will make bedtime a little easier.

 

Heather  01:09

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  01:12

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  01:26

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good, long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan; and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  01:48

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are

 

Heather  01:54

Are you ready? 

 

Kristina and Heather

Let’s hit the trails. 

 

Heather

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:13

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives. 

 

Heather  02:21

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. Welcome back. We’re so glad that you’re here. Grab a hot cup of coffee, tea. Join us. We’re going to talk about sleep. We want you to be awake.

 

Kristina  02:43

I’m so glad we’re talking about sleep today, because it is incredibly important. And people ask us about sleep all the time. It is something that parents really struggle with, how to help their child sleep, how to make sure the household is getting enough sleep. And-

 

Heather  03:03

And it may be something you struggle with yourself, because what do we say all the time? Sleep is a skill, and oftentimes people haven’t been taught how to sleep well.

 

Kristina  03:13

Right. Now, that being said, there are some people that are just naturally better sleepers than others. 

 

Heather  03:21

This is my son, Luke, right? Luke is a sleeper. My grandmother had six children. If I could impress her, it was quite a feat. I remember going to her home with a sweet little blanket that was soft, that Luke loved. And he would come and say, “I’m tired, Mommy, I’m ready for a nap.” And I would lay the blanket down in her formal living room, where nobody else was going to be, and she had a little sliding door that came out of the wall. And he would lay his sweet little head on that blanket and go to sleep. And my grandma would look at him and say, “Hmm, never seen that before.” That was nothing I had done. There was no great skill. It’s just who Luke is, right? When he’s ready to sleep, he’s gonna lay down and sleep, and he needed that sleep. He’s a smart boy with a big brain, and he’s six foot two at this point. He was growing, right?

 

Kristina  04:17

And if you’re fortunate enough to have a kiddo who is just naturally a good sleeper, put that in your little gratitude journal, because not all of us have that kid, right? 

 

Heather  04:28

Yeah, it’s not a feather in your cap. Probably came into the world that way. 

 

Kristina  04:31

Just really appreciate it, right? You know, my daughter was a horrible sleeper from the time she was born, she was-

 

Heather  04:39

Absolutely, I remember these later phone calls, these early morning phone calls, right? Your dark, dark circles under your eyes.

 

Kristina  04:45

Yes. And in fact, I ended up keeping a calendar for several years, where I would mark on the calendar each day the times that she was awake.

 

Heather

And I remember the celebrations if she stretched out a sleep.

 

Kristina

If she could get more than forty-five minutes. You know how I’d heard these things about parents of newborns and how there’s all this time while they’re napping, and my child had none of that time because she didn’t nap. It ended up that she had chronic ear infections, which made her extremely uncomfortable, and so she wasn’t able to sleep, but I didn’t know that at the time. I learned that later.

 

Heather

And you got lots of really bad advice. 

 

Kristina

I got lots of advice that made me feel like a really terrible parent. Yeah, already, from the beginning…

 

Heather

She was “manipulating you.”

 

Kristina

I had people tell me that my three month old was manipulating me. 

 

Heather  05:42

You needed to “let her cry it out.”

 

Kristina

Yep, exactly. 

 

Heather

And I remember you calling and saying, “Do you think I need to do that? And me saying, “No!” Right? Like she’s communicating a need. We don’t know what it is, but eventually you got it figured out.

 

Kristina  05:58

Yeah, eventually we got it figured out, and we got those tubes, and that helped tremendously. But even so, she still struggles getting to sleep and staying asleep. And so teaching my daughter how to sleep was definitely a process, and was not short. It went on. It had some hang time as she learned to become a better sleeper and built that skill, but I would worry that whole time, right? She’s not getting enough sleep. Then I wasn’t getting enough sleep. So I was-

 

Heather  06:32

And the more sleep deprived you became, the more worried for her developing brain you became. 

 

Kristina  06:37

Absolutely. I’m thinking sleep is critical in brain development, and my child’s not sleeping, so I would weep and wail sometimes, and I was beside myself because my child wasn’t getting enough. 

 

Heather  06:51

Part of the reason you were beside yourself is because even as adults at night, when we sleep, we know that our brain cleanses itself. It gets rid of the junk. It processes kind of like the “garbage,” and it gets it out of us. And that’s why sometimes our dreams can be super wonky, but you weren’t having that process happen. There’s also another stress hormone called cortisol, which is supposed to be lower, right,  we’re heading into sleep, and then those hormone levels change. Well, you weren’t having a normal rest process.  So your cortisol levels were wonky. Your brain wasn’t having these long stretches and this opportunity to cleanse the garbage out. So your “garbage” – 

 

Kristina  07:41

Was accumulating. For sure. And I wasn’t getting it. She wasn’t getting it. We were in trouble.

 

Heather  07:47

And it feels then everything feels more stressful. Everything feels more frustrating because we don’t have our normal tolerance.

 

Kristina  07:56

Yep. So I would add up her time, and I would think to myself, “This is not sufficient. This is not enough. So what can we do?” So very early on, my family, and I recommend this to parents a lot when they come and talk to us, I ask them to describe what that process is in moving their child towards sleep. I like to call it “transitioning towards sleep.” 

 

Heather

Some family call it “the witching hour.” 

 

Kristina

Yes, well, it is “the witching hour.” Absolutely. Yep, that is a real thing. You are not alone. We have “the witching hour” in our home too. But when I talk to parents and people, you know, raising and nurturing children about what that time, the hour, hour and a half before bed, looks like, you hear a lot of different things. One of the things that I hear more frequently than I did, you know, two decades ago was that early evening time was the only time the children were going to see one of the parents because of work schedules, right? They were off to work before the children got up. They were returning home during the time that I would recommend they begin transitioning to sleep. 

 

Heather  09:14

Yep, there’s also another culprit here, right? There’s these smartphones that didn’t used to exist, which is a whole other thing for parents to manage, right? Because they’re always connected to work. And there’s this whole other thing that we have kids on screens, which impacts, we know, sleep and brain stimulation as well.

 

Kristina  09:37

Absolutely. So there’s actually a lot to think about when you’re trying to set up what is the routine going to look like as we shepherd our child to sleep? And how long is that going to take, and the intentionality behind it.

 

Heather  09:55

And what we know we’ve talked a bit in other episodes about attachment. Bedtime – there are –  the research shows that there are more significant times in the day that are significant to the child for attachment and connection and “ding, ding, ding,” if bedtime isn’t one of the times.

 

Kristina  10:16

It sure is. So for those families who have these busy days, and perhaps a parent only gets to see the child during this time that is transitioning to sleep, you need to figure out what you’re going to do with that. That was true for my family. My husband, you know, traveled a lot for work. He works very long hours. And oftentimes, if he was in the country and in town, he could come home for a period of time, but it really was like in that six thirty/seveno’clock kind of time range. And that’s when, for our daughter, we needed to start that transition to sleep. But boy, did he like to tickle her.

 

Heather  10:56

Oh, and dad’s like to bring the energy. I don’t know if you’ve ever been like the community pool, right? And it’s transitioning in the late afternoon hour from like, the moms have all been there and they’re with the kids, and there’s babies on hips, and kids are just playing, and you hear squeals of delight, and then all of a sudden, around like, four thirty, children are flying through the air. And it’s like, “Oh, the dads, the dads have arrived.” It’s the same thing oftentimes. And if you’re getting home from work, if it’s that later hour, all of a sudden the kids are flying through the air in the home, right?

 

Kristina  11:32

Absolutely. Or it’s a great time for a wrestling match. 

 

Heather

Or some chocolate. 

 

Kristina

Oh, that was the other thing: Chocolate every night with daddy on the couch. Yep. So while those may be lovely things and nice times of attachment-

 

Heather  11:48

They’re not serving us in the best ways.

 

Kristina  11:51

Not at that time. No. Because what those activities do is they energize your child and well – 

 

Heather  12:00

And they mirror neuron, right? Kids mirror neuron. 

 

Kristina

Say more about that.

 

Heather

I remember watching my husband come home and my Zack, who was – He’s always gonna be our oldest guys. He’s our oldest. And he would sit and kind of like, he would like do this posturing with his body, knowing, like, “My dad is home and he’s gonna throw me up in the air. And we’re gonna do, I don’t know, man, stuff.” What do you do with a baby? I don’t know. But like, he sensed that energy was coming and that it was vastly different than my energy. And so I think Grace knew when Vince would come home, he was all like, so excited to see her – 

 

Kristina  12:49

Right? This is my precious little time. And we have fun doing these things together, you know? 

 

Heather

And so the energy goes up.

 

Kristina

What was a beautiful thing is he learned, and I didn’t have to say anything about it. He’s an amazing dad, but he picked up on that, that escalating her activity and having her get all jazzed up before bed wasn’t helpful. And he began something that we referred to as “the tour.” He would come home from work, and he would pick up Grace. And he would hold her facing outward. And he would bounce and walk her around the house, very slowly and quietly, say things to her like, “Oh, that’s pink. It looks really soft. Let’s touch it” and then have her touch it. And move to another space, and, “Oh yes. You see that light.” And he instinctually began doing this transition to sleep. 

 

Heather

That’s darling.

 

Kristina

Isn’t it? It was wonderful. And it was a time that I could brush my teeth finally and maybe take a shower. It was so great, but – 

 

Heather

We’re glad you got to brush your teeth. 

 

Kristina

Well, they were days, let me tell you what, that I don’t think it happened, because that’s just the reality.

 

Heather

Let’s not go back to those days.

 

Kristina

It was a terrible time. So anyway, he instinctually knew that she needed help transitioning into sleep. So when I say to parents, “Let’s talk about what your routine is before bed,” lots of times it’s, “Well, you know, we have dinner, and then my kids watch a show, and then it’s bath time, and then after bath time, they watch one more show, and then it’s books and bed.”

 

Heather  14:34

Let’s talk about the difference in shows. Well, it’s energy level. There’s a difference between energy levels. So there’s a difference between watching, what do kids watch? Bluey. What do kids watch these days? I’m not familiar with the shows, but the concept is, if it’s fast and it’s whirling and it’s lights and it’s sounds, they match that energy. Versus, if it’s like sing-songy and lullaby-ish, you know? Like, I remember we had an evening CD that would play that was just more mellow and quiet and sounded like lullabies versus the music that we would play if we’re gonna have a five minute quick cleanup in the house, right? Vastly different energy. We wanna move, right? But kids pick up on those subtle differences. And so if you’re watching a show that’s zooozoooozozoozoo bing, bang, boom. All this fastness. What do I even say? I don’t know, quickness, all of this energy, their energy goes up.

 

Kristina  15:52

Yep, absolutely. So consider the hour to hour and a half before you’re hoping to put your child to bed, and think about how you are structuring that time. What is the light level? What is the noise level? How much time is your child on the screen? And how during that time are you shepherding them toward rest? So we developed this routine with Grace, involved the tour when she was younger, and then as she got older, lots of parents like to give baths at night. And you need to assess whether that’s the best time to bathe your child. For us, baths energized Grace. It was not helpful in transitioning her to sleep. So those baths would have to come earlier in the day. 

 

Heather  16:45

For our family, we bathed at night. It was the sweet little lavender scent soap, right? I can bring some calm and soothe. 

 

Kristina

Oh, girl. We tried the soap. This was just not happening.

 

Heather

Well, and there’s a difference in kids, right? I have three, and that’s another thing. Like you had one. How do you do it? How do you do your bedtime routine when you’re staggering kids? That’s another thing to think about.

 

Kristina  17:08

So we very intentionally established some sleep signals. Like you, you played a CD at night. We chose a CD that we could live with for the rest of forever. And we played the same CD every night as soon as we were done reading books. So there would be this softening of the family. The softening of the lights. The quieting of the voices. The turning down the energy level. And we would go upstairs, prepare her in her pajamas, brush teeth, move into her bedroom, where we had a rocking chair, and the rocking chair is where we’d read books every night. Reading those books while she rocked was such a tender time.

 

Heather

And it’s great connection. 

 

Kristina

Great connection time when the books were done and we read three, partly because I’m pretty anal retentive, and partly because I needed a boundary on it.

Heather

And you were exhausted-

 

Kristina

And I was exhausted. And I needed to get my own downtime. After those books were done, we would turn on the CD. I would swing her Lovey over my shoulder, and that became her signal to put her head down on my shoulder, and it was time to move toward her bed. So I also had a rule of three for the CD. I would rock her through three songs, and then she would be put into her crib, and that was the pattern we established. 

 

Kristina 

Now, I know this is a controversial thing for really young children of the whole, you know, “cry it out” kind of thing. We didn’t do that with Grace, although I tried, because I was desperate at times, you know, with my hand, like stuck at a weird angle through the crib railing, to try to keep the passy in her mouth, to try to get her to fall asleep without her actually seeing me. And, you know, throwing my back out in the process, and doing all of those things to try to help her sleep.

 

Heather  19:18

And we think about connection as so important to them, right? And if we can just sometimes pause and say, “Why does this behavior make sense?” We are asking these little people to go this huge stretch of time without us, without any encouragement. And it’s the darkest time of the twenty-four hour period, right? So if you can think of it that way, it allowed me, even when tired, to have more empathy. Of course they want to connect. Of course they might need a little reassurance, a little rub on the back. “You’re okay. I’m here. It’s time to go night night.” Those types of things I think are normal. Doesn’t mean they’re easy when we’re so tired.

 

Kristina  20:07

Yes, absolutely. 

 

Heather  20:13

And if you have one, two, three-and they’re like setting off, like they’re detonating, like little bombs in the house, it’s like, “Oh, well, which mine field do we run to now? You know it can have some hang time when that all is happening. And sometimes you can get to the point where you think “We’re never going to sleep again, right? Like it’s just not going to happen. We’re done sleeping-“ 

 

Kristina  20:33

Or we’re never going to sleep again without me hollering and being the person I don’t want to be to get my kids to stay in their rooms. I mean, we’ve heard from parents who literally lock their children in their rooms. 

 

Heather 

Please don’t do that. 

 

Kristina

No, please don’t do that. That’s a very unsafe thing to do. But they’re at that point, right? Not bad people. Desperate people. Yes. So I know we’re talking about this in infancy, but as your child ages – First of all, it’s never too late to start a new routine for bedtime. Never too late. And once you do that has a lasting impact. 

 

Heather

And it takes time.

 

Kristina

Yes, they begin to learn how to diminish their energy as they move towards sleep, because it’s been their pattern from the time you started this routine so that becomes to feel normal to them. I’m not going to choose to engage in these activities that rev me all up. I know that the screens are turned off an hour before I go to bed. I know that the music I’m going to listen to is going to be more calming. And it ushers in a much more peaceful time. Doesn’t mean there won’t be bombs going off sometimes.

 

Heather  21:47

But it takes time. Like once a parent decides to impose this new routine, whether or not you recognize it or not, the child is used to what they’re used to. So how long do you think it takes? Like, how much repetition before they begin?

 

Kristina  22:05

Well, we’ve said for years, if you haven’t tried something for three weeks, you haven’t really tried it. Because parents will say, “I tried it once and it didn’t work. That doesn’t work for us. The breathing doesn’t work. That this doesn’t work. Nothing works.” I think, “Well, your child’s adjusting. And what we know about when we change what we do, it changes what the child does. It takes them a while to be able to adjust to that, to recognize, “Oh, it’s not going back to the way it was. I need to learn a new way of doing this.” And so we expect things to get worse before they get better. That’s something we’ve said in therapy.

 

Heather  22:43

We talk about the ship a lot, right? So you’re out to sea. You’re on course. You step away for a minute. You look there’s a sailboat ahead of you. And, all of a sudden, you pull that wheel to miss that sailboat. You’re not immediately back on course. You veer off a minute and then you get back on. But it takes a bit when you get off course to make your way safely back. And you have to allow for that tide, right? You have to allow for that course correction. Sometimes that takes longer than we would like, because we’ve made up in our minds “We’re going to deal with this. We’re going to start anew,” right?” 

 

Kristina  23:22

Yep. And then you need to have the persistence to be able to do it. If you are fortunate enough to co parent, and you can look somebody else in the eye and be like, “We’re doing this. It’s really hard-“

 

Heather  23:32

And when I want to give up, you have to hold me accountable. 

 

Kristina  23:37

Yep. If, again, if you are fortunate enough to co parent and your lives allow, it’s a lovely thing to either put children to bed together or divide and conquer, but switch off. Often we’ll have parents come and say, “Well, my wife is the only one that can put the child to bed,” or “My partner is the only one, because when I try, they just scream for the other parent.” And it’s like, “Well, how often do you do that?” Well, you know, whenever, once a month, my, you know, husband has XYZ, and I have to put the kids to bed. It’s like, “Well, no wonder your child is screaming. It’s not that they don’t love you. It’s that it’s not their routine.” So if you can switch off, flip, flop, back and forth, it allows for some of that freedom. I mean, let me tell you what: in the beginning, it can feel really darling that, “Oh, my daughter just wants me to be the one to rock her to sleep.” But that loses its darling nature fairly quickly. You want somebody else to be able to put the child down. So that transitioning to sleep and thinking about shepherding your child toward rest, reminding them as you put them down that they are loved no matter what, that you are so grateful to be their parent that you can hardly believe that you’re fortunate enough to have them in your family. Okay? And to let their little heads hit the pillow with those thoughts dancing in their mind is beautiful. 

 

Heather  25:08

Okay, so one thing that I recall specifically happening that tried my patience, and I have way less when I’m tired and it’s the end of the day and I’ve been with these beautiful little darlings all day long. But you go to put them to bed, and we’re at the point where we all get them down, and then all of a sudden, it’s like, “Mommy. Mommy.” No, I don’t think I hear anything. “Mommy!” Darn it, I hear something. So I go, “Yes?”, “Why do crackers have lines in them?” “Honey, it’s bedtime,” “I know, but I was just wondering.” Like, all the mysteries of life come out at this time. And one of my personal favorites is when they’re like, “Why do things die?” And it’s not like, we can just say, “I don’t know let’s ask Ritz tomorrow. How do you make your crackers?”

 

Kristina  26:09

They become these little philosophers that emerge in the night time and really, what they’re looking for is connection. It’s not about needing one more drink. We can’t possibly give them enough water at night. It’s not that they need to do one more thing. 

 

Heather  26:27

It’s really seeking that connection. And so I remember this distinctly being like, “Man, they really pull out all of the punches to just get you back in there.” “I’m too hot.” “I’m too cold,” right? “I don’t like these socks.” It’s all the things , right? And they really just want us back in there. My daughter used to have identical blankets because she was my third and I was skilled. By the time I got to her, I was like, “Oh, you buy whatever is their favorite blanket. You have more than one, because, Heaven forbid you lose that blanket.” 

 

Kristina

Well, and hey have to go in the wash at some point, right?

 

Heather

Exactly. Well, hers had, and she had named them Scruffs and Fluffs. And so it became the thing of one was softer than the other. “Mommy, this is Scruffs. I don’t want Scruffs. I want Fluffs.” So, and at this point, you just, I want to open the door and scream, not in her bedroom. I want to go outside and scream because I’m tired. And so what I did and started doing, from a pretty young age, with my oldest, and then my other kids had just heard it from being in proximity , as we had “mom and dad time,” at our house. We had “mom and dad time.” And what we said to our kids, and this goes back to your foundations, right? Like this is something mom and dad need to take time to be together uninterrupted and enjoy one another’s company, and to relax together, because that keeps our relationship strong. And that was something that we set up as one of our foundations to model for our children. We both come from divorced homes. It was fine. We’re both fine. But we wanted to model that intentionally for our kids: we are going to make time for one another. And so we would be like, “You know, it’s mom and dad time. You’re on, mom and dad time. I’m gonna give you one more hug and one more kiss. You can dream about crackers. We can solve that mystery tomorrow. Here’s your water bottle. Here’s Fluffs. Here’s Scruffs. You got everything you need.” And then I would say to them, “You do your deep breaths. And you – these are some magic words, guys – even though it was mom and dad time, I would say, and this is to my daughter in particular, because I think the boys would be up later than her, and she was just like, “Life is so unfair. I go to bed the earliest.”

 

Kristina  28:59

Right.

 

Heather  29:03

I would say to her, “You do your deep breaths and get down to the business of going to sleep. I’m going to come in ten minutes and check on you.” And that was enough for her, of like, you’re coming back. And I would usually nine out of ten times go back and she’d be out, right? Once in a while she’d be awake. And I’d just peek in and wave and blow a kiss. The blowing a kiss from afar is a fun thing. My daughter – I don’t know what in the world – I blame it on having two older brothers, but I remember her standing in her crib, and the first time I blew her a kiss, and she wasn’t even a year old. She grabbed it from the air and went, “Ow,” and put it in her mouth. And I was like, “Okay. Eat Mommy’s kisses right on up.” And so that was kind of her thing. So I would just blow her a kiss and she’d grab it and eat it.

 

Kristina  29:57

We just, again, textbook. No words, right? At this point, we aren’t doing any words, just loving looks, maybe a little blown kiss, maybe a little-

 

Heather  30:08

And the encouragement of “you’ve got this. I’m gonna go be with daddy.” “I want to be with daddy too.” “I know, but he’s mine now. Bye, bye.”

 

Kristina  30:18

Sleep tight. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  30:29

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until next time

 

Heather and Kristina  30:34

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina  30:40

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  30:51

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  30:59

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on, outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  31:12

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 15: Building Resilience In Our Kids

 

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of allowing children to experience frustration and disappointment to build resilience and problem-solving skills. They introduce the concept of the “wall of futility,” where children must confront and process their emotions to develop coping and adaptability skills. Emphasizing empathy over rescue, they highlight the need for parents to resist the urge to distract or minimize their children’s feelings. They share personal stories and strategies, such as acknowledging feelings and not rushing to fix problems, to help children navigate through disappointment and adapt. The conversation takes a look at finding the balance between advocating for children and fostering their independence.

 

“…We have entire generations of individuals who haven’t built that skill. Their frustration tolerance is very low. They don’t have the skills to manage being disappointed…If a child doesn’t have the opportunity to feel disappointment, to have someone surround them in that disappointment, and then to get good at that coping and adaptability, we grow up to have an adult who doesn’t function very well in the world…And we have the opportunity to teach that. How cool is that? We just need to know how.”

 

Building Resilience vs. Rescuing 

  • Kristina introduces the topic of allowing children to experience frustration and disappointment as essential for building resilience and problem-solving skills.
  • Heather emphasizes the importance of approaching children’s distress with empathy and moving them towards acceptance.
  • Kristina discusses the temptation to minimize children’s feelings or distract them, which can hinder their growth.
  • Heather highlights the value of celebrating children’s ability to work through disappointment without excessive praise, fostering independence and confidence.
  • Kristina introduces the concept of the “wall of futility,” where children face their emotions head-on, crucial for adapting and coping.
  • Heather stresses the need to resist the urge to rescue children and instead allow them to hit the wall before moving towards acceptance.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the balance between advocating for children and allowing them to develop independent skills.
  • They emphasize the importance of acknowledging our children’s journeys, not just the outcome.

 

“Approaching that ‘wall of futility’ with your child…We do that with all the empathy in the world. We do not diminish it. We do not threaten. We do not, you know, try to distract even if it seems ridiculous to us. We say, “Oh, I see how disappointed you are. You were really hoping to XYZ, and so you’re disappointed that that didn’t happen.” 

 

And you stay in that empathy until they hit the wall. And, you know, they hit the wall, really, when those tears come. Or there’s this big, deep breath and you hear something like, “Maybe next time” out of their mouths, or, “I guess I could go do something else.” They come up with it. And what that is is adapting. They are coming into being able to accept. It’s acceptance. And then it’s learning how to adapt and practicing that skill. And for us, it sometimes takes everything within us to resist that urge to fix all of those problems.”

 

Personal Stories and Empathy

  • Kristina and Heather share personal stories about their own children navigating difficult times, stressing the importance of empathy.
  • Heather talks about the challenge of watching children struggle but resisting the urge to swoop in and save the day.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the need to foster empathy while understanding that life’s challenges are essential for growth.
  • The balance between advocating for children and allowing them to develop independent skills is reiterated.

 

The Role of Empathy in Parenting

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of empathy in parenting, acknowledging children’s feelings without minimizing them.
  • Heather shares her experience of telling her children that it’s hard for her to watch them feel disappointment, emphasizing the importance of being present.
  • Kristina and Heather talk about common parental reactions to children’s distress, such as minimizing feelings, threatening, or distracting.
  • They discuss the importance of allowing children to experience frustration and disappointment to develop problem-solving skills.

 

“I mean, just seeing our kids, even of their own doing, experiencing pain and disappointment – it’s really hard. It’s painful for us. I remember saying to my kids, as they were getting bigger and making decisions and had to miss out on things, “It’s really hard. It’s hard for me too to watch you feel that disappointment.” 

 

“We distract them, because we just want the frustration and the distress to end. And we want to move them right back into happy. And that is a way to really kind of cripple our children, because they’re never allowed to actually experience frustration. We’ve never been taught as parents the importance of frustration in our children’s development…That’s very true. When we leap right over the hard, then we have kids, as they grow, that can’t manage hard. And hard will come…”

 

Building Resilience Through Emotional Experiences

  • Kristina and Heather talk about the importance of allowing children to experience their emotions fully, including sadness and disappointment.
  • Heather shares a story about her son Zack, who solved a problem independently at the airport, highlighting the value of building resilience as a life skill.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the need to resist the urge to fix all problems and instead allow children to experience their emotions.
  • They talk about the importance of building resilience in children to help them manage hardships and adapt to life’s challenges, which are inevitable.

 

“The other really beautiful thing is that the more a child experiences being kind of shepherded to the ‘wall of futility’ the less they need to hit the wall… it becomes a much shorter journey as time goes on and their confidence goes up…Their happiness is experienced more fully because they’ve also experienced great sadness and great disappointment.”

 

The “Wall of Futility” and Emotional Development

  • Heather introduces Gordon Neufeld’s concept of the “wall of futility,” where children need to be brought to their feelings of sadness and tears before moving beyond them.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of empathizing with children to help them reach the wall of futility.
  • They discuss the process of moving through the stages of grief – including denial, anger, bargaining, sadness, and acceptance.
  • They talk about the importance of being present and not rushing to distract children from their emotions.

 

“Rather than saying, ‘I’m so proud of you,’ I started saying to them, ‘You should be so proud of yourself.”..it seems like a subtle shift, but it was really impactful to them. Even in texts, like ‘you should be really proud of yourself.’ And they respond to it so differently than ‘I’m so proud of you,’ because it feels different to them. It’s their ownership, right?”…And I’ll ask it as a question, ‘Do you feel proud of yourself, because that was really hard…And you did it!’ And building that sense of confidence, like ‘I did do it, I did do it.’”

 

Practical Strategies for Building Resilience

  • Kristina and Heather discuss practical strategies for building resilience in children, such as acknowledging their feelings and not minimizing them.
  • They discuss the importance of building resilience in children through everyday experiences, not just big events.
  • Kristina gives an example about her daughter’s upsets, and how she handled different situations with empathy.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of recognizing opportunities to be on the same side as children and supporting them through their emotions.

 

“So it’s that line of, as a parent, advocating for them, but also determining what’s going to grow them, what’s best for them. And those can be tricky things to tease out, really tricky things to tease out. And for me, just like I had recommended that he live with his choice, I had to kind of do the same thing myself and really think about what is my ‘why’ on this? Because if my ‘why is too enmeshed in his feelings? That’s not a good place to be. I’m not serving him well as his parent. But if I felt really confident that I was listening to him, that I wasn’t forcing anything on him, that I was listening to his logic of the, you know, thirteen or fourteen year old boy, then I could feel good about my own actions in response to that.”

 

Balancing Advocacy and Independence

  • Heather discusses the challenge of balancing advocacy for children and allowing them to develop independence.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter Grace, who has dyslexia, ADHD, and struggles with anxiety and depression, and how she navigated advocating for her.
  • Heather talks about the importance of listening to children and not forcing them to do things that they are not ready for.
  • They talk about the importance of celebrating children’s independence and problem-solving skills.



The Role of Empathy in Parenting

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of empathy in parenting and how it helps children navigate their emotions.
  • Heather shares a story about her son Zack, who did not want to go on a school trip and how she advocated for him.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of being present and empathetic with children, even when it is difficult.
  • They discuss the importance of building resilience in children through empathy and allowing them to experience their emotions.

 

The Importance of Community and Support

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of having a support system and community to help navigate the challenges of parenting.
  • Heather shares her experience of having a “village” to check her and help her make decisions for her children.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of resisting the urge to fix all problems and allowing children to experience their emotions.
  • They close by reiterating the importance of building resilience in children through empathy and the joy that comes from allowing them to develop their own problem-solving skills.

 

“And resilience is a really key component of emotional well-being. And along with that resilience and those coping skills, also come problem solving skills. If you are stuck in the distress and frustration, and you have been trained your whole life that you will be rescued from it, somebody is going to come in and make it all better, then they never have the opportunity to develop their own problem solving skills…and they rely on others to do that, to come in and do it. The real risk is going through life as a victim, where just things happen to you, rather than being an active agent in your own life.”

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Notes: 

 

In a prior episode, Kristina and

Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.”

This is language from a book

series from Diane Alber.

 

In a prior episode, we reference

concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting

without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel

  1. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood

Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard

Louv:

Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin

N 

 

Natural

Start Alliance 

 

Children

& Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children

(NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and

awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A

Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing

Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and

Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring

Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive

functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s

Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 15: Building Resilience In Our Kids

 

Kristina  00:00

Welcome back, everyone. Today, we’re diving into a topic that might feel a little tricky: allowing our kids to experience frustration and disappointment.

 

Heather  00:09

Yes, it sounds counterintuitive, but these experiences are absolutely essential for building resilience and problem-solving skills.

 

Kristina  00:18

Absolutely. We’re going to talk about the concept of the “wall of futility.” It’s where kids face their emotions head on, which is crucial for adapting and coping. 

 

Heather  00:29

And here’s the thing, we need to approach their distress with empathy, allowing them to hit that wall before moving them towards acceptance, right?

 

Kristina  00:38

It’s tempting to minimize their feelings or distract them, but that can actually hinder their growth. We want to empower them, not rescue them.

 

Heather  00:50

Exactly, celebrating their ability to work through disappointment without showering them with praise builds their independence and confidence in themselves.

 

Kristina  00:59

It’s all about acknowledging their journey, not just the outcome. We’ll share some personal stories about our own kids navigating tricky times. 

 

Heather  01:08

Oh, those moments are pure gold. It’s so important to resist the urge to swoop in and save the day, especially when it’s so hard to watch them struggle.

 

Kristina  01:20

Definitely. We need to foster empathy while also understanding that life’s challenges are essential for growth.

 

Heather  01:29

And let’s not forget the balance between advocating for our kids and also allowing them to develop those independent skills that can be a really fine line to walk. 

 

Kristina  01:39

So true finding that balance is key. Let’s dive into these strategies and stories and help our listeners navigate this important aspect of parenting, nurturing resilience in our kids.

 

Heather  01:57

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood,

 

Kristina  02:00

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  02:13

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan; and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  02:35

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  02:41

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  02:42

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  02:48

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  03:00

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives. 

 

Heather  03:09

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  03:18

Welcome back. We’re so glad that you decided to join us today. We get to talk about building resilience in our children, and I’m excited to talk about this today. I know you are too, Heather.

 

Heather  03:30

I am. It’s an important skill, a really important skill.

 

Kristina  03:35

And we have entire generations of individuals who haven’t built that skill. Their frustration tolerance is very low. They don’t have the skills to manage being disappointed. And they are very much attuned to wanting what they want now.

 

Heather  03:54

Yes. Instant gratification, a lot of validation needed and an inability to adapt. Wow, it is a really big factor. And resilience is really building the skill to be able to adapt. 

 

Kristina  04:13

It is and we get to talk about how we can build that in our children. It’s not especially complicated, but it is something that many of us do not do naturally. It takes some real intentionality behind it. And in fact, you know, I’m, we’re social workers, I tend to be a rescuer, and I’ve had to work on that in my life.

 

Heather  04:37

We’re different in this way. Yeah, we tend to, well, we both have empathy and compassion, and, sister, you do have more of it. And our training is different. I mean, we both went through the same graduate program, but I also have a Criminal Justice –  I mean, I think one class more, and I would have had a Bachelor’s in Criminal Justice, because I just loved it so much. So I’m trained also in all of that, justice and accountability, and so we like to say there’s an awful lot of empathy, but there’s also a little kick in the butt at the end of it.

 

Kristina  05:14

Yes, yes. And I have learned to do the kick in the butt at the end of it, but it’s taken some work, because I am naturally inclined to want to rescue people. If anyone is distressed or if they are upset or if they are grieving, I am all in with the empathy and wanting to help them move to a place where they’re feeling less distress, where they’re feeling more comfort and more peace. And the same is true for working with children. 

 

Heather  05:44

It’s really good that you’re comfortable in that space, but so many people aren’t. And I imagine that’s why we have a solid generation, maybe generation plus, of kids that are struggling to cope with lots of things. So it’s great that you’re comfortable in that space, but it’s how do we get parents to understand that we need to be comfortable in that space and be present in that space, right? Because people want to just get to the happy. They want to move through too quickly. So people have been saying forever and ever and ever: This next generation. Are they broken? Like, what’s wrong? Right? No responsibility, right? Yeah, irresponsible, going to hell in a hand basket. Like, these are things that have been said forever and ever and ever. And really it’s that our world has always changed and evolved, but this digital technology world changes faster than I mean, just even for us post grad school, like do you remember an undergrad? I don’t know about you, but I had to trudge to the fourth floor and make copies. Or you had to look through the micro film. Oh, we’re really aging ourselves. But like, you can just pull – we can pull stuff up on the internet now, and it’s right there at our fingers while you’re still in bed.

 

Kristina  07:12

I mean, it’s crazy, right? The access to these things. It is. So building resilience is even more important, because there’s so much coming at us as adults and our children so quickly, so many opportunities. Our schedules are so full, there’s less time to connect.

 

Heather  07:33

And there’s way more to manage with a developing brain. Way more to manage. I think about my childhood where we just kind of played all day in the summer and we weren’t being shuttled from all these activities. And there really weren’t many activities to be involved in. There just weren’t.

 

Kristina  07:52

You rode around on your bike with your neighborhood friends.

 

Heather  07:54

You did. And now there’s just so much. Many of them, very good things to be involved in, but the ask on children is bigger. Way bigger. The demands are higher. The ask on parents is way bigger, for sure.

 

Kristina  08:13

So learning how to build resilience in children is kind of critical. 

 

Heather  08:21

Really, really could have, really, if you think of it in terms of what happens is if a child doesn’t have the opportunity to feel disappointment, number one, to have someone surround them in that disappointment, and then to get good at that coping and adaptability. We grow up to have an adult who doesn’t function very well in the world. They just don’t know how to function in the world, right?

 

Kristina  08:54

And we have the opportunity to teach that. How cool is that? We just need to know how. So for me, Little Miss empathy over here, I like to be with people in the midst of their upset, have them not alone. But I don’t like it when people are feeling upset, especially my own daughter. So most parents don’t right. We don’t want our kids to feel frustrated. We don’t want them to be upset and disappointed. It’s not happy and sad.

 

Heather  09:23

I mean, just seeing our kids, even of their own doing, experiencing pain and disappointment, it’s really hard. It’s painful for us. I remember saying to my kids, as they were getting bigger and making decisions and had to miss out on things, “It’s really hard. It’s hard for me too to watch you feel that disappointment.” 

 

Kristina  09:46

So because that’s so hard, we do a couple of things as parents. We can minimize what our child is feeling, you know, “Oh, you know, that’s not such a big deal. That’s not, you know, that’s not so bad.” We can minimize it. Or we threaten, like, “I’ll give you something to cry about,” which is a phrase that’s been uttered more times than I can ever imagine. Or if our child is in the midst of upset, we try to distract them and we say, “Hey, let’s go look at the puppies. Let’s go look at the puppies at you know, the breeders, should we go for a walk and get some ice cream?” We distract them, because we just want the frustration and the distress to end, and we want to move them right back into happy and that is a way to really kind of cripple our children, because they’re never allowed to actually experience frustration. We’ve never been taught as parents the importance of frustration in our children’s development. 

 

Heather  10:50

That’s very true. Wow, they should change them absolutely when leap right over the hard. Yes, because then we have kids, as they grow, that can’t manage hard. And hard will come 

 

Kristina  11:05

Yes. Yes. And resilience is a really key component of emotional well being. And along with that resilience and those coping skills, also come problem solving skills, absolutely if you are stuck in the distress and frustration, and you have been trained your whole life that you will be rescued from it, somebody is going to come in and make it all better, then they never have the opportunity to develop their own problem solving skills.

 

Heather  11:38

And they rely on others to do that, to come in and do it. The real risk is going through life as a victim. Yes, where just things happen to you, rather than being an active agent in your own life. I think of when we returned, this was a few years back, my oldest, Zack, was driving, and we had all traveled together. And he had driven his vehicle to the airport. We left it there along with ours. He parked in a little bit different area, but his battery had gone dead in the long-term parking and, of course, we had flown. We were ready to go home. It was still like a forty-five minute drive from the airport. And my husband knew this because they had walked out together. The rest of us stayed with the luggage, and he came back and he said, “Oh, Zack’s got a dead battery. We’re gonna have to figure that out.” And my husband had started – I don’t know if he had called someone or if he had talked to airport security. I’m not sure what he had done. And they were like, “Oh, yeah, you’re gonna have to call a tow truck.” And Zack, who was probably seventeen at the time, he was still in high school, said, “Oh, Dad, don’t worry about it. You guys just go. I’ll find somebody and they’ll help me because I’m a kid. Like the airport people will be way more likely to help me because I’m a kid than to help you as a grown man.” And you know what? He was absolutely right. And we were like, “Fair enough, we’re out of here.” We’re gonna go and turn the heat back out in the house and, you know, unpack. And he had called within like, twelve minutes, we had gotten down the expressway, and he’s like, “I’m all set. I got a jump.” And Travis said, “Who helped you?” He’s like, “Oh, one of the security guards.” He was absolutely right.

 

Kristina  13:22

And he had the skills to solve his problem. He absolutely did that independently, which is beautiful. Yes. So one of the reasons we get excited about talking about this is because allowing your child to experience their distress and their frustration without rescuing them from it, or without trying to fix it, is, at least to me, counter-intuitive, and I think that’s true for a lot of us, parents, to allow them to be sad and to allow them to experience that is tricky. 

 

Heather  13:56

So any of us are just uncomfortable in those emotions.

 

Kristina  13:58

Yes. So we want to really talk about, how do we better support our children in building their resilience through their times of upset, through their times of disappointment, through their times of distress, because it’s important that we learn how to navigate those times. So that instead of creating a victim who doesn’t have problem solving skills, we’re building an individual who has resilience, right?

 

Heather  14:29

So one thing that we talk about a lot in the classes we teach is the “wall of futility,” which is this idea by Gordon Neufeld and we were introduced to Gordon Neufeld in Susan Stiffleman’s book, Parenting Without Power Struggles, which we both love. I think it is a powerful parenting book. She puts things in very simple terms, and then uses really powerful examples to illustrate those points. Which I really like about her book. It’s wonderful. But Gordon Neufeld is a psychologist who says children need to be brought to the “wall of futility.” And he talks about it, that children that are experiencing disappointment need to be moved into their feelings of sadness and even really tears. Yes, they have to move through those emotions to the point of tears before really being able to move beyond. Yes and adapt. And that once those tears come, and I believe he, or Susan, one of them, talks about like, sometimes even priming the pump for the tears, like, if you see your child and they might have that little lip quiver going, that you can just empathize with them so much and make a sad face and say, “I know it’s so hard. We love visiting grandma and grandpa and the cousins. So hard. We had such a good-“ and all of a sudden the tears are falling. 

 

Kristina  16:15

Yeah, you’re about to make me cry. That’s really good. You’ve got a really good-

 

Heather  16:17

And once those tears come, the child has a level of understanding that life doesn’t always go the way we plan, but that in the midst of it,

 

Kristina  16:31

We can be okay. That you can survive.

 

Heather  16:35

You can absolutely survive. And you can rely on the people around you to be in those feelings with you. I think it’s the movie “Inside Out,” which is a good number of years old, but I think in there, it specifically says, you cannot feel full joy without also experiencing sadness, right? And this is the same idea, we can remember the wonderful things about being at Grandma’s with the cousins and all the things, and at the same time, hold the sadness of it’s coming to an end. And then we fully grieve that, that it’s happening, and the tears come. But we adapt with the understanding of, “I can do this, I can make it.” And I’ve got this person – mom, dad, whomever it might be – here with me. Yep, being present, not rushing to all of the things that you said in the beginning. Let’s go get ice cream. Right? Knock it off. There’s no reason for that. We’ve had a wonderful time. You don’t say “If you cry, we’re not coming back again,” right? Just being present.

 

Kristina  17:47

Yeah and approaching that “wall of futility” with your child. We do that with all the empathy in the world. We do not diminish it. We do not threaten. We do not, you know, try to distract even if it seems ridiculous to us. We say, “Oh, I see how disappointed you are. You were really hoping to XYZ, and so you’re disappointed that that didn’t happen.” And you stay in that empathy until they hit the wall. And, you know, they fit the wall, really, when those tears come, or there’s this big, deep breath and you hear something like, “maybe next time” out of their mouths, or, “I guess I could go do something else,” 

 

Heather  18:39

They come up with it. And what that is is adapting. Yes, they are coming into being able to accept. It’s acceptance. And then it’s learning how to adapt and practicing that skill. And for us, it sometimes takes everything within us to resist that urge to fix all of those problems. And to just soak in all of that emotion for them, rather than letting them experience it. But having them experience it, it really is a grief response. And so you literally move through the stages of grief, which are denial, anger, bargaining, sadness or depression, and then finally, acceptance. The sadness and depression part is those tears, right? It’s knowing you have come all that way from the denial, and then maybe an anger tantrum is what that would look like with the young child, and then the bargaining. But it’s all where they attempt to negotiate.

 

Kristina  19:50

Yes. And your little parental heart is going to want to soothe them and make it better and make it better.

 

Heather  19:56

And we need to just keep going. And then from bargaining we go into that sadness, “I know, honey, yeah, we’re just, we’re gonna really just sit here and be so grateful for the time we had with grandpa and grandma, but we’re leaving.” And then acceptance, and that’s the skill building.

 

Kristina  20:29

Sometimes we think of this being just a skill you build in early childhood, but this technique the “wall of futility” works no matter how old you are. No matter how old our children are, it still works. The other really beautiful thing is that the more a child experiences being kind of shepherded to the “wall of futility,” the less they need to hit the wall. 

 

Heather  20:58

Yeah, because they build the shepherding they need. Yes, like it becomes a much shorter journey as time goes on and their confidence goes up. Yep, their happiness is experienced more fully because they’ve also experienced great sadness and great disappointment.

 

Kristina  21:19

Yep, so it can be something like leaving grandma and grandpa’s or it could be something like being at the store and really wanting to buy Oreos, but you’re not buying Oreos this week because you’ve had Oreos in the house the last six months, and you just can’t- I mean, you’re eating Oreos like crazy. So we’re not getting the Oreos, but the child really wants the Oreos. And that’s an opportunity for them to reach the “wall of futility” as well. We’re not getting the Oreos, but it’s not me as the parent getting frustrated and angry with my child who really wants the Oreos. It’s being able to recognize, and this is tricky. In the midst of it is being able to recognize, Aha, I have an opportunity to be on the same side as my child. “Oh, I know, boy, it was fun having those Oreos in the house, wasn’t it? We used to lick that cream, ooh, and dunk them in the milk, and it was so fun. I know, yep. We’re not going to be getting the Oreos.” “But I really want them” and maybe the tantrum comes and as the adult, you’re also tolerating this upset and saying because it’s part of the process.

 

Heather  22:23

Yes, and that’s what we can remind ourselves in the midst of it. It’s like, “Okay, we’re in anger. We’re progressing. Next they’re gonna try to bargain with me.”

 

Kristina  22:36

Yep, exactly. We know what’s gonna happen. Yeah. So you don’t have to wait until there’s a big thing that’s happened that your child is so super distressed over or disappointed about. We have these things happen every day. So maybe it’s you know, Grace has chosen to wait until the weekend to do the majority of her schoolwork that makes her pretty lousy Saturday and Sunday, when it’s like, oh, you’ve got six algebra assignments. And she gets upset about that, and she goes on about how, you know, algebra is so stupid, and why do I have to do it? And she’s all escalated. And that’s yet another opportunity to say, “Yep. I know. Yep, and I wish you didn’t have to do them too, but they’re here to do.” And it’s not a time for me to say, “Well, you chose to wait until the weekend to do them. And now it stinks, right?”

 

Heather  23:28

I mean, at Grace’s age, they know that they don’t need us to tell them, right?

 

Kristina  23:31

And in fact, part of that process was beating herself up about the fact that she had waited and so again. So real life, yes. But walking to that wall and then having that big “Okay, let’s get started,” right? Like, yep, because reality is reality, the algebra needs to get done. It’s not going away. Huffing and puffing isn’t going to change it. It just has to get done. So moving through the upset to that point of resilience and to the point of adaptation and acceptance, it’s like a little dance that you do, and the more you do it, the more the skills grow.

 

Heather  24:14

Starts very early. It could be over toys. It could be over socks. It could be over so many things, big, little, the issues get bigger as the kids get bigger. But like you had said, the more we bring them to the “wall of futility,” the more quickly they’re able to move through those stages of grief and then realize, “Okay, it is what it is” which is really the essence of the “wall of futility.” It’s the acceptance of: this is the reality and of that, where we’re at, and it’s not going to change. And then that’s the adaptability piece.

 

Kristina  24:56

Yes, we can without intending to make that process take a whole lot longer, if we forget when our child or our partner or our spouse is experiencing the distress and disappointment, if we forget that we’re on the same team, right? Well, yeah, if you go poking the bear, oh no, you are with them with empathy up to the wall. It’s not the time to say, “Oh, you’re so ungrateful. We got a toy last time we were at the store.”

 

Heather  25:25

And it’s not the time to teach, “Wow, if you’d have done that differently and made a different choice” or telling people to calm down…

 

Kristina  25:34

Yeah, nobody’s ever calmed down by being told to calm down. It makes me more angry the whole big time, like I”’ll show you, calm down. Here we go.” So being on the same team, you’re with your child in the midst of that upset as they approach the wall. You can, like you had said earlier, prime the pump, with your verbal skills and your non verbal skills – 

 

Heather  25:59

With the facial expressions, the, you know, the voice. Even if you can make your own eyes water. And some kids, we’ve had a lot of parents if a child is just kind of malcontent and just not just kind of combative all the time. For a young child, we talk about them having a low-grade fever of frustration, that’s just kind of simmering away. And we’ll ask, like, “Does your child cry very often?” And it’s an interesting question to parents, because they’ll pause, and kind of can see them really thinking, and usually they say “no.” And that’s because they maybe aren’t brought to the wall, and you don’t prime that pump. And they might not naturally be a crier, or they might not naturally be a child who’s going to be comfortable sitting in their feelings. Some kids are way more comfortable than others. Some kids really need to be taught how to do that.

 

Kristina  27:04

Oh, I love how you said that, “being able to sit in their feelings,” because that was what was difficult for me with Grace. I didn’t want her to feel that, right? I wasn’t comfortable. I wasn’t comfortable sitting with her in her feelings. And would have been prone to rescue. And so I really needed to be intentional about seeing those as opportunities to grow skills and breathing and identifying “I don’t feel comfortable, and that’s okay, because I know that feeling uncomfortable is survivable.” I can survive feeling uncomfortable, upset, disappointed, all the things we’re hoping to teach our children as well.

 

Heather  27:44

Yeah, it’s a super, super impactful and important skill to teach how resilience impacts them and the foundation to build it impacts them for the rest of their lives.

 

Kristina  27:58

I think as parents, too, we’ve come to this place where we almost think it’s our duty to help rescue our children.

 

Heather  28:08

Oftentimes, what I’ve heard parents say is, “My childhood was good, but I want their childhood to be better. I want it to be happier. I want it to be wonderful.” And that’s a wonderful thing, but if we shortchange them on their ability to cope, on their ability to manage, on their ability to adapt, they become adults who struggle to cope, who struggle to manage, and who struggle to adapt, and that is much more challenging than a child who struggles with those things. And we want to grow them. So it requires zooming out and reminding ourselves, when it’s uncomfortable for us, the reason why we’re doing it: We’re growing them. We’re showing them.

 

Kristina  29:04

And as the adults, being able to differentiate between advocating for your child and not allowing them to grow in their independence.

 

Heather  29:14

That can be a tricky line sometimes. Because we want to – I think it gets really tricky sometimes for parents. We hear all these really, I don’t know what I want to call them, negative, yucky, just these terms about parenting, like “lawnmower parent” or “helicopter parent,” or “hover mother” or “smother nature” or, yeah. I mean, there’s all sorts of them, right? But really the essence of it is that you’re kind of paving the way for your child, and we don’t want them to experience any bumps, right? Or any potholes or any bends in the road that they’re not anticipating. We just want it to be smooth sailing, the whole way.

 

Kristina  30:03

Removing any obstacles.

 

Heather  30:06

And really, that’s not life. It is not life, because there will always be things, big things, sometimes, that need to be conquered or managed or adapted to. And then how are we setting them up for that? So I’ve spoken before about my kids, who all have dyslexia, and that was a journey for me, advocating for them from a very young age, and then taking what I believed was best for them and advocating to be able to teach them in the way that I thought they needed to be taught. And then also seeing that through, but not ever leading them to believe that they had a disability or that they were less than or that it was an excuse, like “We’re gonna work hard. In fact, you have been working very hard.” But it is that line to dance between advocacy and I don’t even know what I want to call it, undermining growth I think is what it really is. So it can be a really fine lines sometimes, at least it was for me as a parent, between advocacy and independence. I didn’t want to short-change my child on being independent, feeling independent, growing independent, but there were times that I’ll talk about Zack when he was in, I think, the eighth grade, and he had the opportunity to go away on a school trip for I think it was three nights, four days, or four nights, five days? I’m not really sure. He had expressed he didn’t want to go. He had gone through this phase of not being terribly comfortable for a bit going away from home, which had been new for him, and kind of came out of the blue. But as I look back on it, kind of also went along with just, I think in general, a confidence decrease for him personally. You know, when school is really hard for kids that can shake their confidence and rattle them a bit. And I think that was probably it for him. It wasn’t a place of safety and security for him. And he didn’t feel good being so far away from home. My husband and I were not able to go. Other parents did go, and he had communicated that, but they really wanted to be able to say that a hundred percent of the kids went, and that’s a fine goal, if that’s what’s best for a hundred percent of the kids. And so I had to set up a time to speak with the teacher, who was wonderful. And I also had to just say, “You know, it’s not that he wouldn’t love this. He knows he would, and I’m sure there’s going to be some grief and that he’s going to miss it. But right now, he doesn’t feel well equipped to do that, and he’s been very anxious about it.” And while there’s real benefits to pushing yourself enough to overcome that, there can also be consequences that can set you back if you’re not listening, you know, to your inner voice on that. And that’s a really tricky space to balance as a parent. I think it’s a super tricky space to balance as a child. So Zack, we did the strategy that it was like when he was deciding stay or go, live with it. Just live with it one way or the other. Make the decision. Yes, I’m going live with that for a night or two, see how that feels. Now, make the decision, I’m not going and live with that for a night or two. How does that feel? And he ultimately decided it wasn’t something that he felt he wanted to endure. And so I advocated for him and said, you know, for whatever reason, I didn’t feel like I had to give great defense on that, because at the end of the day I’m the mom. He’s my child. I choose to put him in the school, and at the end of the day I feel like I’m the mom. I get to say, right? And so it was fine, and he didn’t end up going. And he had to do some other things to make up for that, but I remember saying to that teacher, we have to be really careful, because they had all of this mental health awareness stuff happening in his school at that time. And I said, we really have to make sure we’re listening to the children. If you want to do better, begin by listening and then not telling them what they need, but joining them where they’re at. And I said, I assure you, this child will go places and he will do things. I have no concerns of that whatsoever. And it was just a short two years later that he loaded on the church van and went to Colorado for a trip for ten days with our youth group. And that was great. And he had a wonderful time. And it was in his timing. And he felt really good about that. And it didn’t take very long. So it’s that line of as a parent, advocating for them, but also determining what’s going to grow them, what’s best for them. And those can be tricky things to tease out, really tricky things to tease out. And for me, just like I had recommended that he live with his choice, I had to kind of do the same thing myself and really think about what is my “why” on this because if my “why” is too enmeshed right? In his feelings? Yeah, that’s not a good place to be. I’m not serving him well as his parent. But if I felt really confident that I was listening to him, that I wasn’t forcing anything on him, that I was listening to his logic of the you know, thirteen or fourteen year old boy, then I could feel good about my own actions in response to that. Does that make sense? 

 

Kristina  36:49

It does make sense. And it’s part of what makes this whole thing right, helping to support our children as they grow their resilience, their problem solving skills. It’s not rocket science, but it is tricky in that it calls forth so many emotions. 

 

Heather  37:08

I just read  something, and I wish I could give credit to whoever it was. I have no idea, because I read a lot of things, but it said “parenting is a wonderful and worry-filled job,” and it really is. It is a wonderful, wonderful, worry-filled job. And it requires that balance. And it feels like a dance. It feels like a dance of, am I putting my foot down in the right place? Am I stepping on toes? Do I need to be more involved in this what’s the perfect balance of growth and independence versus advocacy support and health and support? 

 

Kristina  38:03

Oh, enduring that time with your child within the upset as they’re approaching the wall, not comfortable, but once they have reached the wall and moved to the other side into acceptance and problem solving. Oh, it’s like the angels sing and it will take your breath away. As a parent think “they are doing it! they have solved their problem. They have come up with a way to be okay with the disappointment, with the frustration, they have adapted!” and that is wow, one of those really, really wonderful moments.

 

Heather  38:45

It’s a proud parent moment. But I think it’s important to verbalize I started making this shift with my kids. Rather than saying, “I’m so proud of you,” I started saying to them, “You should be so proud of yourself.” And man, was that just, it seems like a subtle shift, but it was really impactful to them. Even in texts, like you should be really proud of yourself.And they respond to it so differently than “I’m so proud of you,” because it it feels different to them. It’s their ownership, right?

 

Kristina  39:24

And I’ll ask it as a question, “Do you feel proud of yourself, because that was really hard,” right? And you did it, and building that sense of confidence, like “I did do it, I did do it.”

 

Heather  39:40

You sure did. Remarkable. Those are the moments to write down in your journal someplace, so that you can go back and look at them later and be like, yes, lots of things are hard, but then this. Those are some sweet things to read when you need a little pick me up. So there are these terms commonly used to describe parents, and they kind of, I mean, I can chuckle at them, but they kind of make me crazy, because parenting is not an easy job. No, it is not. It is joyful and it is heartbreaking all at the same time. And it can be exciting, it can also be really worrisome. But these terms like “lawnmower parent” or “smother mother”, or “smother nature”, or “helicopter parents,” like we’ve probably all been called those. 

 

Kristina  40:38

I’m sure we have well, and they’re so derogatory. But the truth is that really, we’re doing the best we can, all of us, right? Every day, we’re doing the best we can. And trying to sort through our own stuff while trying to raise this human being and processing all of the things that came before in our life. I mean, it is not easy, right? And to have that reduced to “Oh, they’re a lawnmower parent” is – 

 

Heather  41:06

And I get how it happens. I get how we the world is a bit scary. There’s so many challenges. It’s so vastly different growing up today than when we did. And I get wanting to protect kids from that, and we want them to be happy. And we want them to be fulfilled and to not have to be sad.

 

Kristina  41:36

And especially when you have a child who maybe has their own set of additional challenges, right? So, you know, Grace has dyslexia, and she has ADHD, and she struggles with anxiety and depression, and it’s like, can I just move some of the obstacles out of her way? Because life is really hard. And so I just want to make something easier for her. And then figuring out, is that really benefiting her? Or is that about me? And what I’m feeling. It’s when you need your village right to have somebody else be able to check you, and you’ve done this for me, Heather, over the years, and say, “but that might be a really important skill for her to build”, “that might be a really important experience for her to have in order to support her growth,” speaking about Grace and challenging me to take a look at it and think, “Am I doing a disservice to my child and clearing the path?”

 

Heather  42:39

Yeah. It removes some of the practice, right? It removes the ability for them to overcome. So resilience and building resilience, first, we have to build our own I think, because parenting requires great endurance and courage, and community. I think we have to have our people around us to be able to do it well. And our children, it’s remembering to resist the urge to fix all of their problems for them, which is so tricky for all of us. And to allow them, as difficult as it may be to experience the feelings that come along with sadness and loss and disappointment, in order to grow their coping skills, in order to allow them to adapt and to eventually feel really good about their independence, and for us to celebrate that independence along with them.

 

Kristina  43:46

Absolutely. So when we’re shepherding our child to the “wall of futility,” that is a time of empathy on your part as the adult, on my part as the adult, I’m living into empathy in that place, which means, let’s give a scenario.

 

Heather  44:08

What would a common thing be?

 

Kristina  44:13

So I know I’ve mentioned before that my beautiful daughter Grace is passionate, kind of in every direction, right? Passionately angry and passionately happy. And things aren’t just funny, they’re hilarious. And she feels her feelings very intensely, all of her feelings. So one of the things that happens, and happened a lot when she was younger, and still happens now, even though she’s a teenager, is that when we are leaving something, if we’ve been like at our family reunion, been with the cousins and aunt and uncles and grandma and grandpa for a week and are getting ready to leave, or even if you know we’d gone over to your house, Heather, to play, and the girls were playing, and we were probably working on something or visiting and it was time to go, Grace always had a lot of grief. It was grief. It was it was grief. And she would cry. And I remember, you know, like leaving family reunions and thinking she’s gonna cry hard for a lot of this trip back, and we’ve got, like, twleve hours to go, and in the midst of that upset, needing to come to her with empathy, right? “We are leaving. The cousins are staying in Virginia and North Carolina and New York. We are headed back home Michigan.” So that’s not changing, right? And I could approach her with being on the other side.

 

Heather  45:44

What would the empathy sound like? 

 

Kristina  45:46

The empathy sounds like, “Oh, Grace. I know you love them so much, and they love you. And it was great to be together. It was, it was, and that’s why your heart is hurting, I know.”

 

Heather  46:02

Which is very different, from “Grace. Every time we visit, this happens. You know, we’re going back home We’re leaving. I don’t want to hear it.” 

 

Kristina  46:14

Right. Or even “Well, maybe you should have spent more time with your cousins while you were there, because there was that time when you were off all by yourself building Legos and you could have spent more time with your cousins. I mean, you wasted some of the time.” That is the approach that you don’t want to have. That’s me against you. That’s me telling you why you deserve to feel bad about it.

 

Heather  46:34

I’m passing judgment about how you spent your time, right? As opposed to coming alongside

 

Kristina  46:38

and saying, “Yes, my heart hurts because your heart hurts. And it’s sad. And you’re right, we don’t know when we’ll go again,” as opposed to, “Oh, well, we’ll be back there in a few months, and that’s not really that long. And you know, between now and then.” I always think to myself, sometimes as parents, we fall into this, like we almost try to be this little carnivalto distract them from the fact that they’re really sad or they’re grieving or something else. 

 

Heather  47:07

Yeah, it’s like a performance, yeah? And you’re an act, and that, that data, you know, it has to be appealing enough to draw them in, make them laugh-

 

Kristina  47:17

Make them laugh, and then it’ll all be better, as opposed to sitting with them and sharing that upset until the wall is reached right? And then it’s again, tears for Grace and that big sigh of, “You know, I wish we lived closer. It was so fun to be together…” 

 

Heather  47:40

And sometimes that wall and that grief, we can bring them to the wall, but going through those stages of grief, especially with big kids, can take some time. I think of my boys as they both went through breakups and saying to my husband, “I’m kind of worried about him. Man, he’s not himself.” And then in the midst of that, having to guide them through it and say “it’s really normal that you’re feeling this way. I promise it’s gonna pass. I promise it’s gonna pass. It takes some time.”

 

Kristina  48:17

And not “I didn’t like her anyway.”

 

Heather  48:21

No. Because she might come back, right?

 

Kristina  48:25

And that’s not a pro tip.

 

Heather  48:27

Sometimes they re-emerge. And then you’re like, “Oh snap.” No, you want to refrain from that until you’re a good long ways down the road past that, but, yeah, stay in empathy and normalize for them. And of course, if you see them doing unhealthy things and being unhealthy, then we gotta reach out and get them help, right? But we can’t short-change that process with big kids and big issues and big life lessons. They’re learning that grief and the bargaining and the sadness, they can just hang a little longer until we get to that acceptance. And then when they get there, we can just celebrate so much. And even if it’s “Wow, that was really, really hard” to be able to reframe it for them and say “That was super hard. But you learned in the midst of that and really, everybody goes through a breakup, and I’m really glad you had this practice, because next time, and there will be a next time, you’ll know what it feels like, and you’ll be better prepared for it.”

 

Kristina  49:56

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  50:02

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  50:06

Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails! 

 

Kristina 

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell,

 

Heather  50:23

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  50:32

Since 2000, the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  50:44

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land, and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 14: A Few Simple Strategies

 

Kristina  00:00

Today, we’re diving into some simple strategies that parents we’ve worked with have found super helpful. 

 

Heather  00:06

And these approaches begin with understanding a bit of brain development. Knowing what’s going on in the brain is key to helping our children calm when emotions run high. 

 

Kristina  00:15

Exactly. We’ll share some of our favorite techniques, like simply looking up, doing that helps shift focus from the emotional center of the brain to the frontal lobe. Basically, it’s a quick reset.

 

Heather  00:27

We’ll also explore using our senses. Shifting our focus to what we can see, hear, touch or smell, can really help pull our kids out of that emotional whirlwind.

 

Kristina  00:38

And here’s a biggie: those emotionally charged moments are not the time to teach. Trying to reason with a child who’s in meltdown mode is not going to serve anyone. 

 

Heather  00:50

Well, it’s just not going to happen. Instead, let’s tap into non-verbal communication. We’ll talk about what this looks like in practice and how it increases feelings of connectedness within our children. 

 

Kristina  00:59

We’ll also cover some useful phrases, like “first…then” to set expectations, “make me an offer I can say yes to” to encourage cooperation, and “it’s just the right thing to do” to instill values. 

 

Heather  01:16

Consistent, positive reinforcement is crucial. And clear communication helps build that all important connection with our children. 

 

Kristina  01:24

Just a reminder, these strategies take time. Don’t try to implement all of them at once. That can get super confusing for everyone.

 

Heather  01:31

Begin by focusing on only one. We think you’ll be surprised at how effective these strategies actually are once implemented. 

 

Kristina  01:40

Let’s explore some strategies together.

 

Heather  01:46

Welcome to Gear up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  01:49

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  02:02

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  02:24

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather  02:30

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  02:31

Let’s hit the trails!

 

Heather  02:37

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents. 

 

Kristina  02:50

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives.

 

Heather  02:57

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org, to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  03:07

We’ve talked about assertive voice. We’ve talked about empathy, expectation, choice. Let’s share some of our favorites that are quick. They are easy. They’re great to know about what’s happening in your child’s brain. And as soon as you get done listening, you can implement these things too. 

 

Heather  03:27

Absolutely. One thing we talk about a lot, and that we teach parents and teachers is that when a child is really dysregulated, maybe they are throwing a tantrum. Maybe they’re just really upset. They’re crying, and we’re trying to get them to calm. And that can be those moments of what I will often do is look up. And at our work, we’re oftentimes outside, so there are things to look up and see. Even in your house, you can look up. And the young child especially will almost always be like, “What are they looking at?” And look up as well. Look up as well. And it’s really hard for the brain when your eyeballs look up to be in your emotion center or your survival state. It brings you back to your frontal lobe. And so there’s at least a pause. And so I look up for a significant period of time, and then I breathe really deeply, and you hold it, and then you might see a bird or something in a tree, or an airplane, and for the young child, we can call any of those things to them. “Did you see that plane? Look at that.” And then all of a sudden, it is distraction, but it’s also they’re looking. They’re using their brain, their back and their frontal lobe, and the upset calms, yes, because they can’t be in both places at once in their brain, right?

 

Kristina  05:02

Because simultaneously, you cannot be in the emotional or survival state of the brain and be utilizing your senses, right? To take in information. So if you’re inside in my house, you could look up and say like, “Oh, there’s a cobweb. Oh, what’s that weird stain?” So you don’t have to be outside. 

 

Heather  05:24

No, you do not. There’s always something to look at, or a smell. It’s any of your senses. It could be. What do I see? What do I hear? What am I smelling? Sometimes it’s just making something up. Like, “Do you smell that? Yeah, is that- That stinks.” The kids always like the stinky stuff.

 

Kristina  05:46

Yes. So then all of a sudden they start trying to figure out what they’re smelling as well. So they start sniffing smells like macaroni and just random things come out. We had a parent ask one time, well, what do I do if I don’t smell anything weird, you may just pretend you hear something. I’ll often say, “Oh, my word!” And turn my head around. What? Oh, I hear that. Do you hear that? And soon they’re back up in their thinking part of their brain. They’re taking in information. They’re focused on what they’re hearing. And they often will hear something too, or they’ll say, “Why don’t I don’t hear anything?” But they’re up in their thinking brain. We’ve left our survival brain, we’ve left our emotional center, and we’re back to thinking.

 

Heather  06:35

And then we can get to a place where we can have a moment of connection. We have calm. It’s probably not the best moment to have the learning take place still. We’re too close to it. We don’t want to go back into whatever was causing great distress. Now it might be that they were refusing to do something, and then we go back into empathy. “That was really hard. You were really upset. I’m so glad that you’re calm and we can breathe” and all of that. But we don’t need every moment to be a teaching moment. And sometimes we can forget that as parents, because we just we want them to know. And we want to teach them. And we go there too quickly before they’re ready, and it doesn’t serve us well. 

 

Kristina  07:27

One of the things that’s really important for us to remember and to know is that when an individual is in their emotional center or survival center of their brain, that thinking part we know is kind of offline. That’s also where we house our language center. So too often, we use lots and lots of words in the midst of somebody else’s upset. And what that actually does is it doesn’t help them understand. It doesn’t teach them something. It causes them to become more frustrated, more agitated, because it’s confusing to them. So when we try to apply the logic in the midst of upset, you know, “You can’t have that cookie because we’re going to eat in twenty minutes. And if you eat that cookie right now, then you’re going to have a, you know, not the appetite that we want. You need to get strong food before you get weak food.” Nothing. You can bring in a sense, you can use empathy, expectation, choice. It is not the time to teach. So reflecting back sometime later to say, “That was tricky. You really wanted to have a cookie right then that was hard for you.” Ad you can talk about that later. “The reason we can’t eat cookies,” if that’s something you’ve established in your home, “is because it affects our appetite. And what we know about our bodies is they need…” That’s the time to have the conversation. Once you are removed from the upset. Everybody’s back in the thinking part of their brain. There’s your teachable moment, not in the time of upset or immediately right after it.

 

Heather  09:11

I think we move to that oftentimes too quickly, and it doesn’t serve us well. But it’s also not easy to stop doing it right? Because it could be that we’re frustrated too. And sometimes we talk about that we can get hooked as parents. And so something taps within us, and then it’s the “No, you are not going” and then it just the agitation is so increased. But it’s hard to resist those types of things. It’s human nature. When there’s a push, we want to pull. And so that can be really hard to resist. 

 

Kristina  09:56

So remembering senses, you can turn. Right? Later today, smell something. Hear something crazy, whatever it might be. Give it a shot. See what happens. I love this next strategy we’re going to talk about. And my mom is a like master with this strategy, and it’s highly effective. It is using your head to nod “yes” or “no” as you’re asking the question, as you are giving information with whatever you want the person to respond. If you want an affirmative response, you nod your head “yes,” up and down. If you want the person to give a negative response, you shake your head back and forth, shaking your head “no.” So it looks like this, my mother nodding her head up and down. “Do you think we should have ham at Christmas?” The crazy thing about this is because of mirror neurons, which we all possess, as you watch somebody shaking their head up and down, you begin to shake your head up and down, and your brain thinks, “Yes, I want this. Yes, this is a good thing.” So even as you’re speaking with your child nodding your head in the direction you’d like it to go. I know this sounds like trickery. I’m okay if it is, because it helps the person that you’re speaking to comply with what you’re asking. How do you see that used in your world, Heather?

 

Heather  11:32

Same way. And it can feel like trickery, but it’s very effective. Even as adults in the business world, even with sales people, they’re all trained in the nodding, because it’s really important, non verbal communication. We went through a period in time after some of the people that we work with came to our class didn’t dare to be in meetings with us afterwards, because it’s so effective. And it is a powerful thing. Another important thing to know, and again, it’s not manipulation. It’s just science. It works requesting in the “Yes.” You might think I won’t have time to do this. I can’t constantly get my child to say “yes” three times in a row before I give them a directive. No, you can’t. And you shouldn’t. There are times, though, that maybe are the trickier times. Maybe there’s something that’s harder for them to give up. Maybe there’s something that’s harder for them to move away from and to stop doing. And that’s the moment to maybe use the strategy of requests in the “Yes,” which the whole basis of it is you ask or make three comments and you get them to respond “yes” three times. So maybe it’s “You really enjoy playing with your Legos.” Yes, I do. “You’re really creative. Look what you built today. That is a really tall building. It’s the tallest,” whatever it is. “It’s really tall. And you did a really nice job sharing with your friend,” blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, yeah, we did it. We did really good. “Now it’s time to clean things up. We need to get everything back in the bin, because we’re gonna go to T ball practice,” or whatever it might be. But the three positives prime their pump for “yes.” And that maybe sounds manipulative. I just like to think of it as science and research.

 

Kristina  13:35

It is science and research as well. But the other beautiful thing that you do when you do the request, you know with “Yes,” it’s connection. It is connection. And it’s instead of “Yes,” instead of hollering from the other room, which we do a lot, like “Time for T ball! We have to leave in three minutes. Hurry, go.” Or my favorite, “hustle, hustle, hustle,” which never made anybody hustle. Please. Not in my family. So requesting with the “yes,” it’s also a lovely time of connection, which helps kids transition together. I see you. I value you. This is where we need to move.

 

Heather  14:15

Maybe we need to start using that one at work. See what happens.

 

Kristina  14:20

Okay, watch out, colleagues. Here we come.

 

Heather  14:25

Another really good one that we teach other people to use, and that we use all the time in our school settings, is “first and then.” Because oftentimes you’ll be moving the child towards what we need them to be doing, and they’ll say, “But we just-“ “First we’re going to… Then we can come back to…”

 

Kristina  14:51

Yes, exactly. “I really, really want to be able to go outside and play.” “Yes, absolutely. I want to play outside too. First go to the bathroom, then we’ll go outside.” One of the things I just did is saying “yes.” We want to answer “yes” as much as we can to the children. “I really want to get ice cream.” “Yes, let’s get ice cream tomorrow. First we’re doing this, then we’re doing something else.”

 

Heather  15:18

I remember being home, because I stayed home with my kids for a number of years when they were young. And there’s just tasks that need to get done to keep the place organized and keep things routine and keep things running, and they want our attention. And of course, they do. They’re little people who love us and we love them, but sometimes we have to do the dishes and sometimes we have to write out the bills and we have to take the dog for a walk and do the laundry, fold the laundry, the laundry. I love it. Always the laundry. So this is a great way to say, “Yes, I want to come out inside and play with you. First I’m going to fold this load of beautiful laundry, and then I’m gonna come out and play outside. First, we need to feed the dog. Then we can ride our bikes.”

 

Kristina  16:08

Yes, we can have a snack after we pick up the toys. So it’s first, then, yes, after. 

 

Heather  16:16

And those are just strategies that gain more compliance. They work really, really well, and it’s remarkable-

 

Kristina  16:22

The difference between saying “no” and saying “yes” after. We really want to reserve the “no” for especially when they’re young, things centered around safety, because often children hear “no” a lot. 

 

Heather  16:45

They’re just commanded a lot. I think the statistic that we saw most recently was 80% of things that are said to the young child are commands. That’s staggering. That’s eight out of ten, and it makes me pause and think, “Oh, what if my life eight out of ten things that people said to me were telling me what to do?” No wonder they’re screaming and howling and rolling on the floor. Sometimes it makes sense. 

 

Kristina  17:19

That’s a lot of commands, especially when they’re in a time in their life where they’re trying to assert their independence, that’s their developmental task. So really reserving “no” for things that require a “no,” which especially for the young child, really centers around safety.

 

Heather  17:37

Let’s talk about when we have a child who is maybe hitting a sibling or a friend or a neighbor, and you said “no,” is reserved for safety. This is also a really good time to use it. And that can sound like as you move in closely and gently, put their hands down to stop the hitting and say, “No, I won’t let you hit. It’s my job to keep things safe. It’s your job to help keep things safe.” That’s a great time to use “No.” It’s very clear. It’s stated as a good boundary, and we’re not going to hit-

 

Kristina  18:14

And we’re not going to say “No, thank you.” Yeah, “No, thank you.” Just Say “No, I won’t let you hit.”

 

Heather  18:22

Which also communicates “I’m in charge of this. And I got this.”

 

Kristina  18:29

Yep important. And in that situation, we follow up with coaching kiddos, if the person that was being hit, “Did you like it when she hit you?”, “No, I didn’t like it, tell her.

 

Heather  18:44

And we give them the script, depending on the age, say “I didn’t like it. Don’t hit me. Next time, ask if you can have a turn.”

 

Kristina  18:52

And so coaching those skills, right? 

 

Heather  18:56

We can’t have a turn hitting like we just are using that as an example. Have a turn with a shovel. Have a turn with – yeah, next time-

 

Kristina  19:05

Good clarifier. That’s good clarifier.

 

Heather  19:09

We’re not hitting anybody.

 

Kristina  19:10

But that right there is a beautiful teachable moment we talk about often. That if children don’t have the skills to meet an expectation, you’ll see misbehavior or maladaptive behavior. Well, they don’t just magically grow the skills we need to teach them. 

 

Heather  19:32

Yeah, and that’s a lovely example of a time to begin teaching the skill of giving the language advocating for yourself.

 

Kristina  19:36

And the skill to the child that was hitting to say, “I want you to look at his face. How do you think that felt to him?” Right? And then if the person has said, “I don’t like it when you hit me. Don’t hit me again. Next time go around.” We’ll say, let’s practice that well. 

 

Heather  19:55

And we’ll even say, “Tell him. What did what did you hear her say?” Now it’s time go around. Okay, let’s do it like this. 

 

Kristina  20:03

Let’s practice. You did it. And that’s-

 

Heather  20:07

And oftentimes, then they take off running and playing together, right? They’re not sworn enemies, no. That’s the beautiful thing about children. They forgive and forget so beautifully. We don’t always do that as well as parents. We’re like, “Bring me the child.” They take off and they forgive. And it’s a beautiful example of, “Oh, we made a mistake, and now we worked it out, and we’re moving on, and we’re happy.”

 

Kristina  20:32

So reserving the “no”, finding the teachable moments, which is not in the midst of upset, really important as children get a little older and up through their teens into their young adulthood. One of the strategies that I love is to use the phrase, “Make me an offer I can say ‘yes’ to,” right?

 

Heather  20:57

So a cell phone, right? Oh, that’s a big one,

 

Kristina  21:01

Yeah. Oh man. “You know how much I want to support the things that you’re, you know, hoping to acquire, but you need to make me an offer I can say ‘yes’ to.” “Mom, I’m gonna go spend the night at Judy’s, and we’re gonna go XYZ, until maybe two in the morning.” It’s like, “Oh, that sounds like so much fun. I’d love to say ‘yes,’ but you need to make me an offer I can say ‘yes’ to” and it puts it back on the child, right? To think through, “Hmm…” because lots of times they know they’ve asked us something completely unreasonable. 

 

Heather  21:39

Yeah, right. And instead of saying “no,” they’re gonna try it. I mean, mad props. Give it a try. You don’t ask, you don’t get see if you can get away with it today.

 

Kristina  21:43

But instead of just saying, “No, you’re not going to do that,” you say, “Make me an offer I can say ‘yes,’ to.” Give them the opportunity to rethink it, to formulate a plan that is something that to create their own boundaries.

 

Heather  21:57

Yes, that are rooted in what you’ve taught them. It’s a lovely way to see what they’ve taken in and have them get themselves to a reasonable place.

 

Kristina  22:08

So another little strategy, “Make me an offer I can say ‘yes’ to.” 

 

Heather  22:14

Another one that I really like is “it’s just the right thing to do.” “But why? Why do I have to do that? It’s okay. Nobody cares. They don’t care.” “It’s just the right thing to do.” And that can be used in a variety of different situations. And it really goes back to your foundations and what you value as a family, and it’s not laced with guilt. But there is such a thing as right and wrong, and “we believe that and it’s just the right thing to do,” is a good way to just kind of remind them that this is what we’re going to do. 

 

Kristina  22:49

Yep, my brother has a choir concert, and I don’t want to go. And so the parent says, “I know you don’t want to go. It’s the right thing to do. We’re going to go. That’s what we do for family.” Yep, we show up for each other. It’s the right thing to do. So another lovely strategy to use with kiddos who maybe don’t want to do what they need to do, what you’re asking them to do, is to remind them it’s just the right thing to do. Okay, one of my favorites that I want to share before we end things today is the strategy of asked and answered. And Heather, I’d love for you to kind of explain this. I think you do it in a really beautiful way. And whew, is it a nice strategy.

 

Heather  23:35

It’s really, really effective. And it’s all about how you introduce it in the tone that you use because we don’t want it to get snarky or dismissive, but it really is meant for whining, because whining can grate on all of us, and kids can beg and beg and beg and be pretty relentless. And so Asked and Answered, is one of those things that like anything else, we teach to our kids, so when they’re in this place of, “Please, please, can I, can I please spend the night at so and so’s? Can I please, please, please, please, please?” It’s like, “Sweetheart, we can’t do that. I told you, your brother has the choir concert, and we need to go to the choir concert because it’s just the right thing to do.” But mom, everybody’s going to be there, and I just want to go do that. It’s going to be so much more fun.” I understand you want to go to that. It’s not going to happen. But asked and answered. You’ve asked and I have answered.” And when they’re real little, you can say, “Look at my face. I have said, ‘No.’ I have answered your question. You’re asking again. You’ve asked, I’ve answered.” Do you remember what I said? Yeah. Still the same. But, but, but, but, but, Mom, mom, mom. It’s just asked and answered. And I think maybe once I did say to my child, “Look at my face. Look at mommy’s face. Do I look like I’m a mommy who’s gonna change my mind?” No, no, shaking their head. No, no. I’m not. Asked and answered. And then it dies.

 

Kristina  25:33

And once your child knows this kind of routine-

 

Heather  25:38

You don’t have to teach it every time. Then you just kindly say “asked and answered,”

 

Kristina  25:45

And you can look them in the face with a really kind, loving look and say, “asked and answered.” It’s not like I’m gripping the edge of the sink in the kitchen with, you know, my teeth all clenched saying “asked and answered,” right? Then I’ve lost my calm. And that’s not going to be helpful for anyone. So part of what it does is it eliminates all those words. It is eliminating you as the parent getting hooked, right? Our children throw out opportunities for us to get hooked all the time.

 

Heather  26:21

And they know when is our weakest moment, because they’re with us, and they see us and they observe us. So every kid knows. I used to say to my kids “When I get on the phone,” I mean, we had a rule in my house unless you were vomiting on fire or bleeding you waited until I got off the phone, because it’s like they could be engrossed in play, doing the thing they love most, and if that phone rang, they were transported right in front of me, hungry, tired, angry, with a problem, like it all happened right then, because they know when we’re distracted. Yes, it wasn’t necessarily about the phone ringing. They heard the sound of it, and they were like, opportunity big time. 

 

Kristina  27:08

Because I always say like, when you’re on the phone or at night, like, those are my worst parenting moments. At night, you get anything you want. I don’t care what I said during the day. I am tired. If you wake me up in the middle of the night because you want to crawl in bed with crawl in bed with me, come on and just don’t allow it. Yes, I just want my sleep. Or if I’m on the phone, it’s like, Yes, oh, whatever. “Have another cookie.”

 

Heather  27:31

And that gets us into trouble. Yep, because that’s a system we’ve set up and created. Our children are just on the receiving end of it, and people think that the child is manipulative. It’s like, no, we’ve just simply reinforced that behavior.

 

Kristina  27:48

They saw an opportunity. Yep, good for them. Good for them. So when we go back to “asked and answered,” you know, to be able to say to somebody on the phone “Just a minute, asked and answered” to the child, and what will happen? There is a little phase of the asked and answered strategy where they’ll ask you a question. You’ll answer them. They’ll ask again, and then they’ll kind of mutter, asked and answered and walk away. It’s like, yep, because now they know. 

 

Heather  28:20

And then you just say, “Oh, sweetie, you’re so smart.” My mom saw this in action the first time. I think Ava was maybe five, yeah, and observed, and was like, that’s some voodoo man. Like, those are some powerful words. Yep. I never thought of that, but it is a great strategy.

 

Kristina  28:42

If you’re going to use the strategy, make sure that your first answer is the answer that you want to give. So hey, all’s fair. You can buy yourself some time. You can say, “Hmm, I need to think about that a minute” when they ask you a question, because if you say “No,” or you say “yes” and then you think, which, this happens a lot for us, is you say no, you can’t do that. And then you think yourself, “Well, is it really that big of a deal?” Like, maybe it’s fine if she does that. Well, then you have to come back and say, “You know what? I thought about that more. I am okay, if you would like to whatever they asked.” So if you used “asked and answered,” make sure you feel real good about your answer, so that you can stick with it.

 

Heather  29:30

And that makes sense to return to it. In our house, we had a rule that if you asked one parent and got the answer you didn’t want you couldn’t go ask the other parent, hoping for a better answer. And if that happened, it was an immediate family meeting. Butts in seats. We’re all going to review the rules of the home and make sure we’re all on the same page. Because that gets real tricky, and can cause a lot of just really yucky feelings between parents. And that’s what we explain to our children, like, “Hey, you can’t put this rift between your father and I, because we want to have a good relationship, and we want to be your parents, and we want to all live here in harmony. And when you do that, it undermines something within the family structure. You can’t play us against each other.”

 

Kristina  30:24

Nope, my daughter was – oh, she was like a savant with this, asking Grandma and I love my mother, and she loves me. She loves my daughter. She used the strategy I used as a child when I wanted dessert, like ice cream, and I hadn’t really had a very good dinner. And I would say, “But mom, it’s ice cream. It just, you know, goes between all the cracks in in between my food.” I hear my mother saying to my daughter, “Yes, you can have ice cream. It just goes all between the little cracks, like, what you- Did you buy that when I was a kid? No. You’re selling it to my daughter. And then my mom would look up to me and say, “Oh, is that okay.”

 

Heather  31:13

A fun position to be in. A great position. I’m gonna be the joy crush.

 

Kristina  31:21

So we’ve shared a lot of different strategies today. Try one. Don’t try them all at once. It’ll be too confusing to you. It’ll be too confusing to the child. But pick one and give it a try.

 

Heather  31:34

It’s amazing how quickly you’ll see results.

 

Kristina  31:36

Yes, and we’ve heard from hundreds of parents over the years about how utilizing these strategies has really shifted the dynamic, the tone, reduced tension, increased the joy. So pick one, any one, and give it a try. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  32:07

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. 

 

Kristina  32:12

Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  32:29

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan. 

 

Kristina  32:37

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences, and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects. 

 

Heather  32:50

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 13: Beginnings and Endings

 

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of recognizing both beginnings and endings in life, especially during times of transition. They explain that parents play a key role in helping children navigate these changes by being present and supportive. They also emphasize the need to teach children how to handle the emotions that come with endings, like grief and gratitude.To help children cope, they suggest strategies such as creating memory boxes and using calming language. Heather and Kristina stress the value of letting children express their feelings and modeling healthy emotional responses. They share personal stories about transitions, like children starting school or parents starting new jobs, highlighting how these moments can be bittersweet and need time to process. The conversation reminds us of the importance of slowing down, being present, and truly experiencing life’s changes together.

 

“I think many of us, because of how we were raised, when we go back to why do we maybe rush? It was because we didn’t know. We didn’t know that there was power in being in those feelings of discomfort and reconciling them.”

 

Exploring Beginnings and Endings

  • Heather introduces the topic of beginnings and endings, emphasizing their prevalence in life and the emotional roller coaster they represent.
  • Kristina highlights the importance of parents being present during transitions to help children process emotions.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the tendency to rush through transitions and the importance of acknowledging endings.
  • They introduce the theme of acknowledging grief and gratitude for personal and child development.

 

Acknowledging Emotions and Teaching Coping Skills

  • Heather and Kristina stress the importance of teaching children to manage feelings associated with endings.
  • They discuss the concept of children not fully grasping time, leading to feelings of overwhelm.
  • They mention strategies like creating memory boxes and using calming language as ways to help children through transitions.

“So we, in our work at the preschool, will say to parents, ‘Children have no concept of time.’ Right? And so we’re in this place right now. We’re recording, and it’s mid April, and we have three year olds and four year olds at our school that are now four and five, and will be transitioning. Our four year olds will be going to kindergarten. And they’re going through this kindergarten registration. But children have no concept oftentimes, unless they have older siblings, of what kindergarten even means…They have their preschool framework, and they know what that means. But they go to kindergarten screening, and then they’ll come back and be like, ‘I’m all done today. I’m going to kindergarten tomorrow.’ And they’re packing up and leaving us for good, and they don’t understand that, actually, you’re gonna finish your year here with your teachers and your classmates, and then you’re gonna have a season called summer, and then in the fall, we’ll head back and you’ll go to a new school that is kindergarten.’”

 

Balancing Emotions and Preparing Children for New Experiences

  • Heather emphasizes the importance of letting children express their emotions without brushing them off.
  • Kristina mentions the need to balance expressing authentic emotions as parents without causing undue worry in children.
  • They discuss the importance of being present and allowing oneself to feel all emotions during transitions.

 

Personal Stories and the Impact of Transitions

  • Kristina shares her experience of becoming a mother and the mix of joy and grief it brought.
  • Heather talks about her son starting a summer job and the emotional impact it had on her.
  • They discuss the importance of allowing oneself to grieve the end of a phase, even when it is joyful.
  • They emphasize the concept of holding both joy and sorrow simultaneously is a sign of emotional health.

 

Children’s Understanding of Time and Emotional Processing

  • Heather explains that children have a different concept of time and may not understand the concept of beginning kindergarten, for example.
  • They discuss the importance of helping children understand and process transitions.
  • Strategies like using language that focuses on remembering rather than missing are suggested.
  • They introduce the idea of creating memory boxes to help children remember special times.

 

“Remembering keeps us in our executive state of our brain, that part where it’s our thinking part of our brain…where we hold our language and decision making… And it’s not that we don’t want to go there. We can be sad. But it’s helpful to kids to use the language of remembering versus missing, just because you can have the same experience, but you’re in an executive state versus an emotional state.”

 

 

The Role of Memory Boxes and Previewing New Experiences

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the benefits of memory boxes for both children and parents.
  • They talk about the importance of previewing new experiences to help children feel safe and secure.
  • They discuss the concept of building safety and security through preparation.
  • Previewing experiences like when flying on an airplane for the first time or taking swimming lessons is one way parents can reduce anxiety when it comes to beginning something new.

 

Navigating Grief and Building Resilience

  • Kristina shares her experience of allowing her daughter to grieve the end of a visit and the importance of giving her hope for future visits.
  • Heather talks about the importance of allowing children to experience and process their grief.
  • They discuss the impact of new siblings on older children and the grief they may feel.
  • They reiterate the importance of being present and acknowledging children’s emotions, and not minimizing them.

 

Strategies for Supporting Children Through Transitions

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of being present and slowing down during transitions.
  • They emphasize the need to acknowledge both grief and joy simultaneously.
  • They introduce the concept of modeling emotional health for children.
  • They talk about the importance of allowing children to see their parents experience and handle emotions authentically.
  •  

“…If you’re able to support them and join them in that grief of acknowledging that ‘Yes, you’re right,’ it brings you back together…To be able to say, ‘I’ll never forget…I’ll always remember about that…and joining them in it says ‘We’re together. I’m with you. You are important.’”

 

The Importance of Being Known and Understood

  • Heather shares the importance of being known and understood by her children.
  • They discuss the balance between being vulnerable and maintaining boundaries.
  • They emphasize the importance of modeling emotional wellness and support within the family.
  • They focus on the value in allowing children to see their parents experience and handle emotions.

 

“When we allow our children to see us experiencing emotion, and when we really hold them and are with them, connected as they’re experiencing emotion, it communicates to them ‘I can handle it as your parent. It’s not too big. It’s not too hard. It’s not too scary. We may both weep over it. We may both be frustrated over it, but I can handle it. You don’t ever have to keep that from me.’”

 

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Notes: 

 

In this episode, Kristina and Heather refer to “growing our peaceful spot” and “shrinking our sadness spot.” This is language from a book series from Diane Alber.

 

In a prior episode, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 13: Beginning and Ending Well

 

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re exploring the world of beginnings and endings, because life is full of them. Oh, and it can feel like a roller coaster ride with all those ups and downs.

 

Kristina  00:09

We really want to highlight how important it is for parents to be present during these times of transition. 

 

Heather  00:15

It can be tempting to rush through them. But when we slow down, we’re afforded the time to adequately acknowledge that something is ending, instead of racing off to the next beginning. 

 

Kristina  00:25

And that brings us to a big theme today: acknowledging grief and gratitude. It’s a skill that’s crucial for our own growth and for helping our kids.

 

Heather  00:35

Learning how to begin and end well involves acknowledging the feelings that come with endings. We can be compelled as parents to gloss over them, to get to the excitement of what lies ahead.

 

Kristina  00:46

Exactly. And in doing that, we shortchange ourselves and our kids by skipping important emotional processing.

 

Heather  00:53

We definitely want to teach our children how to manage those feelings associated with endings. It’s a critical component of their emotional development. 

 

Kristina  01:02

We’ll share some stories from our own experiences, like how it felt when our kids started school, or our family routines changed as our kids got older. Those moments can be bittersweet. 

 

Heather  01:13

We’ll also talk about how kids can feel so overwhelmed by changes, especially since they don’t quite grasp the concept of time yet.

 

Kristina  01:22

We’ll share some strategies we love, like creating memory boxes and using language that helps kids remain calm and grounded. 

 

Heather  01:30

It’s so vital that we let children express their emotions without brushing them off. Feeling and expressing grief is just as important as celebrating joy.

 

Kristina  01:40

We’ll wrap up by sharing some tips for preparing kids for new experiences and helping them feel safe and secure during transitions.

 

Heather  01:49

We’ll talk about how to balance expressing our emotions authentically as parents while not raising concern or worry within our children

 

Kristina  01:57

Exactly. It’s not always easy, but being present and allowing ourselves to feel all the feels makes such a difference. 

 

Heather  02:05

It sure does. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  02:13

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  02:26

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. And we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  02:48

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather

02:54

Are you ready?

 

Kristina and Heather    02:55

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  03:01

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  03:14

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

 

Heather  03:21

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  03:31

Welcome back. We’re so glad to have you join us again. Today we are going to talk about beginnings and endings.  It’s that’s what life is full of, right? Beginnings and endings. And what we want to talk about today is, how do you begin and end well?

 

Heather  03:53

It’s tricky.

 

Kristina  03:54

It is tricky, and it’s not something that we always think much about. So learning how to begin and end well is a really valuable skill to build and to grow in ourselves and in our children, because it is what life is made of. Every beginning is also an ending, and we don’t have a lot of comfort in experiencing or observing the feelings that come along with endings. 

 

Heather  04:28

Some of us try to outrun our feelings, and rush to the next thing.

 

Kristina  04:33

Absolutely. So we short-change the process of dealing with all of those feelings and experiencing all those feelings with endings, and we rush to the next beginning.

 

Heather  04:45

And sometimes, in doing so, we take our kids along with us on that rushing. And we actually don’t just short-change ourselves, we also short change them. And then are teaching some coping skills in the midst of it, and maybe not the coping skills we would want to be teaching.

 

Kristina  05:05

Exactly. So helping our children and ourselves learn to manage those feelings that come along with endings before leaping to the thing that we’re beginning. I remember hearing from a professor at some point along the way, learning from him that all change is experienced as loss and is accompanied by grief. Whether it’s a positive change in your life or a negative change, it is experienced as loss and comes with that grief, because a beginning is also an ending to something else. I wished and prayed and hoped to become a mother my whole life, and that was trickier for us for a lot of reasons than I ever could have imagined it would be. Took us a long time. And so I was overjoyed to be able to have a child.

 

Heather  06:16

And I was an ending of-

 

Kristina  06:18

I anticipated that all I would have was joy, right? 

 

Heather  06:22

But it was an ending of a really long stretch of independence. 

 

Kristina 06:26

Yeah, you never get back right? Like forty years of independence. 

 

Kristina  06:33

Well, and about forty years before you get it back right? So it was the realizing I will never have two hands free again. I mean, not until the child is older, right? Or being able to really have it be all about spontaneity.

 

Heather  06:43

You don’t just pack up and go away for the weekend. All of it, right? A newborn, a toddler.

 

Kristina  06:51

I don’t. I know some people do, but I don’t. And so even in that moment, which was the moment filled with the most joy and gratitude in my entire life. 

 

Heather  07:08

There was also some grief and letting go of a whole different phase. 

 

Kristina  07:11

So we want to talk about: how do you begin and end well?

 

Heather  07:16

And why do we tend to rush past some of those things? And I think we have some pretty solid thoughts on why that happens. We’ll talk about that and how to shift our thinking on beginnings and endings, and realizing that with new beginnings that are very well joyful and exciting, it’s oftentimes an ending. This resonates with me right now. Luke is our seventeen year old who just accepted a summer job. And we’re in West Michigan along the beautiful Lake Michigan shoreline. And our boat is north of where we live, about an hour and a half. And so we spend a lot of time north in the summer. And I have talked in previous episodes about when my oldest son began working, when he was in high school, and then would stay home. And I affectionately call that the “summer of tears.” Yeah, and I’m heading into “summer of tears 2.0” because now I’ve got a second son who will more be at home and separated, which is just a…it’s different, and it’s the beginning of something wonderful. And while I’m so proud that he wants to earn money and that he wants to be responsible and that – he has a wonderful work ethic – the mother in me grieves that this season in our lives is coming to an end with yet another child.

 

Kristina  08:42

And it’s so important to allow yourself that grief. Oh yeah, “summer of tears,” as opposed to leaping forward to what precious time I’m going to have with Ava. Because it’s both. And being emotionally healthy is being able to hold both the joy and the sorrow.

 

Heather  09:04

And sometimes we can’t even put words to it. It took me a bit. It took me a while to even, within myself, be able to give voice to that. It’s tricky. And maybe that goes back to how we were raised. Quite likely it does, right? I think for both of us, it does. Even as we’re trained and all of those things.

 

Kristina  09:26

It’s not being comfortable with even people being sad. You know, we’ll say, “Don’t be sad. Don’t cry. And, you know, let’s go get ice cream.” My daughter feels endings very deeply. And you know, she loved her kindergarten teacher and just would sob and sob about kindergarten coming to an end. And it was much easier to say, “Oh, but you’ll still see her every day because your classroom is right next door” and “Yes, you know it’s going to be great, because now you can have all the great things about…” rather than joining her in the moment in the grief and being able to say “Yes, you loved her. She loved you. She taught you so many things,” and being able to allow that.

 

Heather  10:15

It’s very healthy to be able to just empathize with those kids and be able to say, “Yeah,” that you’re feeling this ending. “You’ve really had a wonderful year with your teacher.” It goes back to brain states and that with young children, I think with anyone, I don’t think it’s young child specific. I think many of us, because of how we were raised, when we go back to why do we maybe rush? It was because we didn’t know. We didn’t know that there was power in being in those feelings of discomfort and reconciling them. Maybe that’s why it took me so long to finally give voice to what is bothering me, what is different, and that’s what it was. It was the grief of having a son back at home when it had historically been our place where our family went and just had wonderful memories made. So we, in our work at the preschool, will say to parents, “Children have no concept of time.” Right? And so we’re in this place right now. We’re recording, and it’s mid April, and we have three year olds and four year olds at our school that are now four and five, and will be transitioning. Our four year olds will be going to kindergarten. And they’re going through this kindergarten registration. But children have no concept oftentimes, unless they have older siblings, of what kindergarten even means. Our adult brain holds that and knows exactly what it means. But if you’re a first born who maybe doesn’t have older siblings or cousins or what have you, they have no idea. They have their preschool framework, and they know what that means. But they go to kindergarten screening, and then they’ll come back and be like, “I’m all done today. I’m going to kindergarten tomorrow. “ And they’re packing up and leaving us for good, and they don’t understand that actually, you’re gonna finish your year here with your teachers and your classmates, and then you’re gonna have a season called summer, and then in the fall, we’ll head back and you’ll go to a new school that is kindergarten. So we write to our families that this is a very common process with children, because they don’t hold time and space and they just know what they know. And if they have a limited picture, that’s what they’re operating from. 

 

Kristina  12:33

And we offer them some suggestions for how to end well.

 

Heather  12:38

And the ending, well, because preschool, at least where we do it, is just such a beautiful time in childhood. And we fiercely protect the childhood nature of it developmentally, and it’s play based, and for a child to be outside, and they get to hold frogs and chase butterflies, jump in puddles, all of it. They get to play and experience great growth in all sorts of areas because they’re just playing, many of them for the first time, with peers and navigating taking turns and sharing and all of those things. But to be able to say “We will remember. We will remember all the times we jumped in the puddles. Do you remember that time we went on that hike and we saw the bunny?” Yeah. “Do you remember the time when we were walking along the trail, and all the turtles were out on the logs, and we got to sneak up so they we didn’t scare them, and we could watch them. And then some of them did jump in, and then we could see their little heads in the pond as they swam?” Remembering keeps us in our executive state of our brain, that part where it’s our thinking part of our brain.

 

Kristina  14:01

Yes, where we hold our language and decision making, all keeps us there.

 

Heather  14:09

And we say it keeps our peaceful and calm spot nice and big. We want a nice, big, peaceful and calm spot. If we go to our emotion center, where we say things like, “I will miss,” or “we will miss,” that puts us right in the emotion state, which grows more our worry spot. It shrinks our peaceful spot, because we’re back in that emotional state. It grows our sadness spot, and sadness and deep sadness. And it’s not that we don’t want to go there. We can be sad. But it’s helpful to kids to use the language of remembering versus missing, just because you can have the same experience, but you’re in an executive state versus an emotional state. Does that make sense? 

 

Kristina  15:00

Absolutely. And you know, my daughter will go to the “but I’ll never be able to,” “it’ll never be like this again. It’ll never, never…” and that’s true. And it won’t leapfrog over that. To say, “You’re right. It will never be just like that. Yeah, how wonderful that you were able to experience that, and it was so precious, 

 

Heather  15:24

and that you will remember it forever, and let’s write a little something about it, or let’s, you know, put that in your memory box, or whatever it might be. This is my oldest who every birthday, every birthday this child had, he would celebrate, but he would also grieve. 

 

Kristina  15:42

Well, Grace is very much the same way.

 

Heather  15:46

It’s like they’re an old soul. And so he would have this great joy of, I’m eight, or I’m ten, or I’m fourteen. Sixteen was a big one. I’m not sure he had as much grief there, because that kid just needed to be able to drive, which is a lot of fifteen to sixteen year old transitions, but he would grieve being that one more year farther from childhood, because he had a great one. And he was such an outdoors kid. And there was something… he’s a great young adult. It’s not that he didn’t want to become a young adult. But he, more than any child I’ve known or had in my home, grieved that growing up a bit.

 

Kristina  16:31

Yes, Grace does the same thing. And she’ll say “It’s going too fast.” I mean, I say it’s going too fast as her parent, but she feels like it’s going too fast. And my daughter grieves things very deeply. I said that earlier, even things like the car that we had when she was born. When we sold that car, she didn’t want us to sell it. She wept and wept and wept because it would never be the same again. She’d say, “Oh, the music we listened to and the fun we had in the white car.” And in my head, I’m like, “Oh my gosh, this is ridiculous. We play the same music everywhere.” It’s like the CD will move with us to the new car, right?

 

Heather  17:14

But that’s the mind of a child, right? They don’t know.

 

Kristina  17:17

No. And so to say, she just heard that.

 

Heather  17:21

She was just so happy in the back seat listening to her music in that car.

 

Kristina  17:27

And how could it ever be the same? Yep. In another it won’t be the same. It will be different. But in those examples, I mean, the same thing: When we got new furniture, she was like, “Can we keep the green couch? Because otherwise I’ll never be able to sit on the green couch again.” It’s like, “No, we’re moving on.” But it’s so easy as a parent to hear that childhood grief and to say, “Oh for Cripes sake.”

 

Heather  17:55

Yes. And it’s important that too, for our kids, that is a big part of who they are, even yet today. They are those little old souls, and they have been since they were born. So they’re just-that’s who they are. It’s a big piece of who they are, and to dismiss that would be to deny them access. And it separates a piece of them. And it separates you. Yeah, right, when you allow well-it communicates “I don’t understand that,” and therefore I don’t understand you. 

 

Kristina  18:25

Yes, yes, where, if you’re able to support them and join them in that grief of acknowledging that “Yes, you’re right,” brings you back together. Wonderful times snuggling on that couch. That’s the couch you broke your arm on that all of the things that are memories associated with that. To be able to say, “I’ll never forget…I’ll always remember about that…and joining them in it says “we’re together. I’m with you. You are important.”

 

Heather  18:57

And they don’t stay there, right a long time. They’re gonna move through. It’s just the point that in our society, we wanna rush so many things to get to the next thing. It’s kind of like we’re here. But are we fully present? Are we enjoying or are we just always going towards the next thing takes real intentionality, at least it did for me, to be in there, to be in the moment, to enjoy this moment and not rush to the next.

 

Kristina  19:26

Yeah, yeah. It’s a really important skill for us to kind of hone within ourselves and then to support our children in growing this skill of being able to acknowledge the grief, acknowledge that that was something really special, and in that acknowledgement, there’s also gratitude,

 

Heather  19:45

I remember for Grace. She’s an only and we work with lots of families that have onlys. I have a family member who’s very near and dear to me, who she’s a single mom. And only at this point, and only have their own grief and childhood. I just remember Grace coming over and wanting to be kind of in the chaos, and then having real sadness with leaving. Do you remember that? Like, “I want to be here. I want to be with friends. I want to be with. I don’t want to go home.” Can be so tempting to be like if you behave that way, we’re not coming here again, right? And you would always do such a beautiful job of saying, “I know, honey, it’s so fun to be here. It is so great to be surrounded by friends. We’ll come back again.” And she needed the hope of we’re gonna come back again. But so beautiful that it was never “You get in the car, it’s time to go. I told you it was time to go, and we’re not coming back if you can’t handle this,” right? Because that was her life, right? As an only she’s going back to Mom and Dad, where not that you’re not great people-

 

Kristina  21:03

Oh, I hear you, sister, it’s not the same. Yes, absolutely. 

 

Heather  21:08

And I just remember many of those. And it was like we had to allow time for the grief when she would depart from us. And there were times we traveled together, yes, oh, and I remember you saying, “This is so great, but I’m gonna have forty-eight hours of hard. Because she’s gonna be so sad.”

 

Kristina  21:30

Absolutely. And being with her in the midst of that sadness taught her that she can handle it. She can survive. She can survive being that sad. 

 

Heather  21:43

Build that resilience Absolutely. And it’s just part of her story, right? She’s still an only, and so it’s just part of who she is and part of what she had to reconcile. And you didn’t short change her in it, and you didn’t make her get better at not feeling the grief right?

 

Kristina  22:04

Or try to do what we tend to do as parents, like, “Oh, I know, I know, but let’s stop for ice cream on the way home. We’ll go to that special spot and try to again, leapfrog over the sadness and the grief to what is next.” Grace is an only. Children who are in families where there is a sibling or multiple siblings have their own grief upon the arrival. 

 

Heather  22:29

Because while it’s great excitement and I’m gaining a sibling, I’m losing my parents undivided attention, right? Yep. And so that adjustment is huge. And then when you have this new baby, even grandparents and friends and family all want to come and see this new baby, and that’s the center of attention. 

 

Kristina  22:53

Yeah,they’ve been unseated from the throne. 

 

Heather  22:56

I remember just handing the baby over and being close with my other kids like “Oh, I’m gonna be with you guys. I’m gonna hang with you guys.” And, you know, just hand the baby off, whoever that was, if it was Luke or Ava. Yeah, that’s a very good point.

 

Kristina  23:13

So we think about things like creating a memory box where our children, or even us, we can keep precious things that help us remember about some of those important times in our life.

 

Heather  23:29

Memory boxes are a beautiful thing. For Zack, who was my birthday celebrator, but yeah, griever, we could go and look at his photo album. Another beautiful thing that I love about the memory boxes is there are going to be times as you raise your children that there are some divides and there’s some tension. And pulling those out and sitting and being in that? Oh, what a tool to diffuse and bring it back to “We are together. We are together.” And being in that space. It’s not short changing the grief, but it’s bringing it back to “We’re together. Look at all this that we’ve done.” So I love memory boxes for that reason, because in moments like that, they can really bring peace and calm and reassurance. And they can provide that at integral points, I think, along the growth and development journey for kids. And they pull them out on their own, eventually, when they get older, which is really neat, too. I think all of my kids hit a point where all of a sudden it was, like their favorite they had a blankie, like those came out, they had gone away from them, and then all of a sudden, at a certain age, they came back out for security, because kids go through these phases where it kind of rocks their identity or their security, and out can come the blanket out of the Memory Box.

 

Kristina  24:54

You did something really well. Well, you did a lot of things really well. But one of the things I really appreciated that you did with your kids is you would preview new beginnings. And that’s a really effective strategy for some, especially like I have a child that is quite anxious. And that previewing or doing a dry run was really helpful. Because, like you had said earlier, in our adult minds, we have an idea of what all these things look like, and children may have no concept whatsoever. Flying.

 

Heather  25:25

I know. Like we drove to the airport. We flew when our son was probably about two and a half, but he was verbal and he was mobile, and we could drive to the airport on a Sunday and just watch planes come and go and show them what it looked like. And, you know, bring them inside, and we’re gonna, you know, put our bags here, and those people help us. And then beyond that, we go to Security, and they’re just gonna make sure everything is all good. And then just watching those planes come and go and telling them what that was gonna feel like, and being prepared for it. And that communicated to him, “We’ve got you. It’s new and it’s different. It’s exciting. Can be a little tricky, maybe, but we’re gonna be fine.”

 

Kristina  26:08

Yeah, Grace really enjoys taking art classes at a particular little art studio here in town, and it’s great. I like, “Oh, I’m so excited to get to sign up for this art class.” But if you’ve never been there, you don’t know what it looks like. You don’t know. You don’t know anything, right? About what that could possibly be. 

 

Heather  26:31

So to do that preview, to do that dry run, swimming lessons is another one. We’re gonna go to that house. This lady…websites are great for that. Like it was a preschool teacher that was the swim instructor. This is what she looks like. Do you stay? Yes, I stay the whole time. I will be there. I will watch you. I’ll be sitting over here. You’ll be in the pool there. All of those things. When we would travel, I would at least say, “There’s going to be a lot of people there. A lot of legs.” I used to say that, like, “There’s gonna be a lot of legs. So you need to hold my hand, because you’re short, and if you get separated, it’s just all legs everywhere. So hold my hand. Stay close. Then I know I’ve got you, or you can be in a stroller, whatever.” But just giving them the lay of the land, that’s-

 

Kristina  27:15

Exactly. It’s giving them something to create an idea, or a picture of what it’s going to be like, and

 

Heather  27:22

And that builds safety and security within them. Yep.

 

Kristina  27:27

So life is a series of beginnings and endings. We want to pay attention to not rushing through the endings, not leaping to the next thing before we’ve really been able to end well, something that is coming to an end and gaining comfort in being able to hold both grief and joyful anticipation at the same time because and

 

Heather  27:56

And give voice to it like even, yes, you know, it was probably four years ago when I was experiencing this with Zack and saying to Ava, she like’s, “Mom, why are you sad?” I’m just, “We’re not together. It’s okay. It’s new. It’s different. I’m really, aren’t you glad Zack has? I am I’m so glad Zach has a job. It’s just different. I’ll get used to it.”

 

Kristina  28:18

Yeah, because I’ll hear parents say sometimes, “I don’t cry in front of my children,” and I’m not passing judgment on that. I think it’s something to unpack. But from my perspective, it’s helpful for children to see their parents experience emotions and survive them. Because otherwise, I remember one time seeing my mom really sad about something, and it scared me because I hadn’t seen it before, and it felt like a really, really big thing. 

 

Heather  28:55

And sadness is just a part of life. And it’s a piece of, for me and my family, being known and being known by your kids. Like they will joke – I mean, the walking on the dock, right? Another episode, they’re like, “Oh my goodness, this is our mother and whatever.” It’s also like commercials can bring me to tears when they’re very moving. And I love animals. I mean, we have four dogs, a cat, a horse, right? So a piece of that being known that I love. And I love to really know my children deeply. And I love for them to know me deeply. Does that mean that there aren’t some things that are just adult things that stay in my adult bowl, for sure? Oh, no, my adult stuff stays in my adult stuff, but I can be vulnerable, and I can model that vulnerability with my children and my husband and have them see that interaction I’ve said before. We, my husband, I both come from divorced families. It’s important for us to demonstrate, for our children, what that good emotional health looks like, and the support we give one another. And I think that for me, it goes back to having my kids know that they can be known, and then they can also know with boundaries we always talk about, you know. It’s not the whole thing you give away, it’s they have good, strict boundaries around that too-

 

Kristina  30:21

When we allow our children to see us experiencing emotion, and when we really hold them and are with them, connected as they’re experiencing emotion, it communicates to them “I can handle it as your parent. It’s not too big. It’s not too hard. It’s not too scary. We may both weep over it. We may both be frustrated over it, but I can handle it. You don’t ever have to keep that from me.” It goes back to when we hear children say things like, “You know, my parents would kill me,” or even things when we have children who’ve experienced the loss of a parent or the loss of a sibling, say, “I can’t talk about it because it just makes my mom cry, or “it just makes my dad cry,” and that they’re not comfortable doing that, and so they keep that inside, inside from their caregiver or their parent.Yeah, because they don’t want to be responsible for bringing on that emotion. And so when we’re with our children in the midst of the grief, not belaboring it, but joining with them as they’re experiencing that grief, it really does communicate “I can handle it. I’m here for you. You don’t have to hide that from me.”

 

Heather  31:40

Absolutely. It’s powerful. So life will always have beginnings and endings. There will always be grief and loss. There will always be great joy. I mean, it’s what was the name of the movie? Oh, “Inside Out?” Where I think in there, it says you cannot fully experience joy without also experiencing sadness, because if you just always avoid the sadness, you’re really limiting your joy. You’re short changing yourself. Yes. And we may unintentionally do that with our children. So we need to experience the whole gamut, not that we get stuck there in any one place. We’re gonna help support and move them through, because that’s what we do as parents. That’s the guiding, the modeling, the leading, the building of really powerful things and families.

 

Kristina  32:36

So as you experience those beginnings and endings, be present and slow down. Yeah, there’s no rush, right? 

 

Heather  32:43

There’s no rush. Feel all the feels.

 

Kristina  32:47

So grateful that we had the chance to talk about this today and to share kind of how we like to view beginnings and endings and how to support yourself and your children in doing so. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina-

 

Heather  33:08

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina  33:12

See you on the trails! 

 

Kristina

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  33:30

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  33:38

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  33:50

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 12: Discipline Series, Part 3 of 3

 

In this discussion, clinical social workers Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of using an assertive voice in parenting. They explain that being clear and direct—without adding questions or polite phrases like “please” and “thank you”—helps avoid confusion for children. They introduce a simple three-step process to handle resistance: empathy, expectation, and choice. Visual aids and clear, step-by-step instructions are also recommended to help children better understand tasks. Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of staying calm and consistent in our communication to help children feel secure and build resilience. They also acknowledge that transitioning from a passive or aggressive communication style to an assertive one can be challenging; and they stress the importance of self-care and seeking support when needed.

 

Using an Assertive Voice in Parenting

  • Heather and Kristina introduce the topic of using an assertive voice in parenting, emphasizing clarity and directness.
  • Kristina explains the importance of giving directives without asking questions to avoid confusion.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the difference between an assertive voice and yelling or commanding.
  • They introduce a three-step process of: empathy, expectation, and choice as a strategy for smoother transitions.

 

“But if the directive is ‘take your plate to the counter,’ you need to say that, not ‘please take your plate to the counter,’ because even using the word ‘please’ implies a question…and that’s confusing for kids.

 

“And we’re not saying that manners aren’t important, or that they’re less important than they used to be…We just learned that there’s a better setting to do it in than when we’re giving a directive. For example, the dinner table, ‘Would you please pass the salt? Would you please pass me a napkin?’ That’s a great place…But if the directive is ‘take your plate to the counter,’ you need to say that, not ‘please take your plate to the counter’ because even using the word please implies a question.”

 

 



Challenges of Using an Assertive Voice

  • Heather and Kristina share personal experiences of struggling with using an assertive voice due to their upbringing.
  • Kristina highlights the confusion children face when directives are phrased as questions.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the difficulty of breaking the habit of using polite phrases like “please” and “thank you” when giving directives.
  • They emphasize the importance of consistency and clear communication in building resilience in children.

 

“There’s another really common one, that is adding ‘okay’ to the end of a sentence, ‘Let’s head upstairs, okay?’ Well, that’s a question. And if it’s a question, ‘no’ has to be an option. Otherwise it’s a trick question.”

 

 

Strategies for Effective Communication

  • Heather and Kristina provide examples of how to give clear directives without using questions or polite phrases.
  • They introduce the concept of painting the picture for children to help them understand the steps involved in a task.
  • Kristina explains the use of visual aids and step-by-step instructions to support children’s independence.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss how crucial it is to maintain a calm and assertive voice to avoid overwhelming children.

 

“Children do well when they can. So if a child is not doing what you’re hoping they would do, it is because the expectation that we hold exceeds their skill level. So, what we need to do is, instead of getting angry that they don’t have the skill, we need to think, “Ah, how can I help them grow this skill?” 

 

Handling Resistance and Maintaining Calm

  • Kristina introduces the three-step process of empathy, expectation, and choice to handle resistance from children.
  • Heather and Kristina provide examples of how to apply this process in various situations, such as transitioning from play to bath time.
  • They discuss the importance of maintaining a calm and assertive voice even when children resist.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the role of support from others, such as partners or friends, in managing challenging parenting moments.

 

 

Building Resilience and Connection

  • Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of building resilience in children through consistent and calm communication.
  • They highlight the role of an assertive voice in nurturing understanding, connection, and a sense of belonging.
  • Heather and Kristina share personal stories about the challenges and rewards of using an assertive voice in parenting.
  • They focus on the importance of self-care and seeking support from others to maintain calm and effective parenting.

 

Practical Tips for Using an Assertive Voice

  • Heather and Kristina provide practical tips for using an assertive voice, such as avoiding questions and polite phrases.
  • They introduce the concept of narrating tasks for children to help them understand expectations.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of using a clear and direct voice, similar to stating facts.
  • They mention again the role of visual aids and step-by-step instructions in supporting children’s independence.

 

Addressing Common Parenting Challenges

  • Heather and Kristina address common challenges parents face, such as children resisting tasks and having meltdowns.
  • They talk about how difficult yet important it is to maintain a calm and assertive voice, even when feeling frustrated or overwhelmed.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the role of humor and empathy in handling challenging parenting moments.
  • They highlight the importance of staying connected to children and maintaining a sense of security and belonging.

 

So those three little steps: empathy, expectation, choice, over and over and over again take you out of negotiating. You’re not negotiating here. Take us out of threats or bribes or other things that we do just to try to move the child from point A to point B because we’re tired, because we don’t know what else to do. It removes all of that, and it keeps you connected with your child. I stay connected to my kiddo when I can respond with empathy to what they are feeling, even if it’s ridiculous in my mind, they are feeling it. So joining with them, continuing that attachment is really important. And really what we’re doing is building the resilience as well. And they need to know that, as strong as they are, we’re strong too. And we demonstrate that through our calm, which is not easy. I say that and it rolls off the tongue like it’s so easy. It is not easy. It is not easy at all. But it helped me to always think, “What do I want to teach?”

 

Building Independence and Skills

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of helping children build independence through clear and direct communication.
  • They remind us of the role of visual aids and step-by-step instructions in supporting children’s skill development.
  • Heather and Kristina provide examples of how to use visual aids to help children understand daily tasks, such as brushing teeth.
  • They discuss the importance of breaking tasks into manageable steps and providing clear instructions.

 

Maintaining Calm and Effective Communication

  • Heather and Kristina talk about the role of self-care and seeking support from others in managing challenging parenting moments.
  • Heather and Kristina review practical tips for using an assertive voice, such as avoiding questions and polite phrases.
  • They review the importance of staying connected to children and maintaining a sense of security and belonging always.

 

And then look at your sweet child hopefully as you’re putting them to bed to say, “I love you so much. We belong to each other. That was tough and tricky. I didn’t love it. It didn’t feel good to me. How did it feel to you? Yeah, didn’t feel good to me either. No, tomorrow’s a brand new day.”

 

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Note: 

In a prior episode, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 12: Discipline Series, Part 3 of 3

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re wrapping up our three-part series on Discipline. We’ll begin by diving into a topic that many of us find challenging, using an assertive voice in parenting. It’s

 

Kristina  00:10

about giving directives and not asking questions. We’ll talk about why being clear and direct is key, especially when our little ones are throwing epic tantrums or just plain ignoring us.

 

Heather  00:22

And when we say “assertive,” we don’t mean yelling or commanding. We’re talking about communicating in a way that is calm, confident and clear. 

 

Kristina  00:31

We’ll go into some tips for making transitions smoother, especially when moving from the thrill of play time to that dreaded bath time. We’ll also talk about the three-step process of empathy, expectation and choice.

 

Heather  00:45

We want to acknowledge feelings clearly, state what’s next and give our kiddos a little choice within the boundaries we set for them. Our kids are masters at testing our patience, aren’t they?

 

Kristina  00:57

Oh, they sure are. But we’ll discuss why it’s essential to focus on teaching. If things get tricky, take a deep breath and keep that assertive voice steady.

 

Heather  01:07

We’ll share about how we can all feel overwhelmed and, in those moments, it’s okay to ask for backup, whether it’s from a co-parent, partner, a friend, a family member, that support is vital.

 

Kristina  01:19

We’ll also talk about how visual aids and step by step instructions can be your secret weapons. Kids love a good chart or picture. It makes expectations crystal clear and supports their growing independence. 

 

Heather  01:33

And  let’s not forget, building resilience in our little ones is super important. Consistent and calm communication helps them feel safe, secure and loved. 

 

Kristina  01:44

An assertive voice isn’t just about giving directives, it’s about nurturing, understanding, connection and a sense of belonging.

 

Heather  01:57

Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  02:00

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  02:13

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  02:35

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather  02:41

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  02:42

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  02:48

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  03:01

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives. 

 

Heather  03:08

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. Kristina? Let’s talk about assertive voice. This is something that –  I worked at the preschool before you did. You came on board. You’re exceptionally polite, which is so wonderful.

 

Kristina  03:35

My mama raised me right.

 

Heather  03:38

But let’s talk about our conversation about assertive voice and what you thought was a pinch point, a real pinch point, especially with children. 

 

Kristina  03:52

Yeah, so using an assertive voice is both clear and kind. Children are not great at decoding the messages that we send. So using a very clear kind assertive voice gives them clear direction.

 

Heather  04:11

And making it clear that it’s a direction, because what we do oftentimes as parents when we’re giving a direction is we actually ask a question: “Are you ready to take your bath?” Rather than “It’s bath time. Finish up what you’re doing, put that away, and head to the bathroom.” Yes, that’s very clear. 

 

Kristina  04:33

That’s an assertive voice saying. “Are you ready for bath time?” is a question which I could legitimately say, “No, I’m not ready for bath time” or “No, I’m playing.” When you ask it as a question, there is a choice. So learning how to give directives with that assertive voice was a challenge for me. I was. Raised to say, “please” and “thank you” for everything. I was raised that instead of speaking clearly and directly with an assertive voice, it was kinder to phrase things as a question, ‘Would you please empty the dishwasher?” “No.” Oh, well, the answer is not “no.” The answer is “yes.” “Yes, I would love to.” It was never really a question. It wasn’t because “no” was never really an option.

 

Heather  05:27

Which is really confusing to children, right? And it’s a really challenging habit to break as parents.

 

Kristina  05:34

This was challenging for me because of how I had been raised, because of the way I had spent fifty plus years communicating with other people. It was a hard habit to break. And I remember when I first learned about using an assertive voice, which an assertive voice does not use words like “please” and “thank you” connected to a directive. If you are indeed asking a question, “Would you please bring your plate to the counter?” And there is the option for the child to say “No,” then you may use “please” and “thank you.” But if the directive is “take your plate to the counter,” you need to say that, not “please take your plate to the counter,” because even using the word “please” implies a question.

 

Heather  06:24

And we’re not saying that manners aren’t important, or that they’re less important than they used to be. We and our family worked very hard to teach our children manners. We just learned that there’s a better setting to do it in than when we’re giving a directive. For example, the dinner table, would you please pass the salt? Would you please pass me a napkin? That’s a great place. There are lots of places in our daily: “Thank you for holding that door. That was so helpful.”

 

Kristina  06:56

“Would you please grab my cup of coffee? It’s over there. Thank you so much.”

 

Heather  07:01

And you had felt like we weren’t teaching manners.

 

Kristina  07:05

It was really hard for me at first, because it’s like omnipresent with children. Many times adults ask them to say “please” and “thank you” for everything, and we don’t do that as adults, so we don’t model it well. And when we give a directive, but we ask it in a question, that is confusing to the child, because they’re wondering, “Is this? Wait a minute. I think this is a trick question. I don’t actually get to say ‘no.’ I think this is the one I have to say ‘yes’ to.” That’s just simply confusing.

 

Heather  08:27

It is very hard to break. There’s another really common one that is adding “okay” to the end of a sentence, “Let’s head upstairs, okay?”

 

Kristina  08:35

Well, that’s a question. And if it’s a question, “no” has to be an option. Otherwise it’s a trick question.

 

Heather  08:46

“Bring your plate to the counter, sweetheart. Okay?” “No, Mom, I’m gonna head outside.”

 

Kristina  08:52

“Oh no, you need to take your plate to the counter.” It’s like, well, I thought I had an option here. You asked me if I was okay with that. You’re not asking a question, you’re giving a directive. 

 

Heather  09:02

And those are habits that we all do, that we all carry with us. I would catch myself being like, “Oh, there it is again. There it is again.”

 

Kristina  09:11

Yes, yes. You become more attuned to hearing it coming out of your own mouth. And so as I was learning to use an assertive voice in giving directives, many times when I noticed I said something with a “could you?” “Would you please?” “Thank you?” “Okay?” I needed to say, “Oh. What I meant to say was, ‘put your shoes by the door.’” 

 

Heather  09:34

So there are two ends to this: There’s that end where we want to be exceedingly polite. We ask questions or say “okay,” rather than just give a very clear directive. So that would be a passive voice. I guess we could talk about that, the questions rather than the directives and adding “okay” or saying, I “I need you to” right? We learned recently and trained our teachers that children are so much more likely to respond as helpers because many of them like to be helpers, especially with 3,4,5, year olds, particularly to parents or teachers or primary caregivers. Really, if you say, “Who would like to help?” and invite that, “It would be so helpful if you would…” rather than “I need you to,” right?…

 

Kristina  10:40

Because once you say, I need you to, you’ve just handed them all of the power, and they own you

 

Heather  10:48

Yes, because they can take it and immediately say, “No, I don’t want to.” And they’ve got the power and control. But if we say “It’s so helpful. Would you…”

 

Kristina  11:01

Would you be my helper?

 

Heather  11:02

Would you be my helper? That they rise up to that because it’s a role, and that was the learning that they could rise into this role and be this helper, and that children, particularly in the three, four and five age range, really identify with them. So we want to avoid the passive voice of giving directives by asking questions or adding “okay” or saying “I need.” The other end of it is when our directives become too firm, and that’s the aggressive voice. And this is an important thing, and this is something that I’ve talked about before, that I can get passionate about things and feel strongly about things, and my kids will say, “You’re yelling.” And I will say “I’m not yelling. Do you want to hear me yell?” Because I’m not being particularly loud, but there’s this intensity in my voice. And so my oldest son, he’d be like, “Mom, you’re speaking with passion again.” And so we joke about that, like, “Yep, mom’s real passionate about that.” They just kind of laugh at that now. 

 

Kristina  12:13

But I remember learning this about myself in grad school when a fellow student gave me feedback saying “you are so intimidating.” And I thought, I’m like, the least intimidating person in the world. But what I learned was that speaking assertively with passion is heard as aggressive, by many people. It’s received that way. It is absolutely received as aggression. And that is intimidating, and wow, that was a big learning for me, because I am passionate about a lot of things.

 

Heather  12:56

That’s who we are as people. We’re advocates, fierce advocates, in some ways, and so we need that passionate voice, right? But apparently, we’re using it in other settings.

 

Kristina  13:06

And we need to be able to use that voice in a way that can be heard, right? So when we talk about the assertive voice, we’re talking about moving away from the passive voice and moving into kind clear directives, but what you’re saying is you don’t want to go too far. 

 

Heather  13:24

You don’t want to go too far, and you want to speak when you’re giving a directive, just like you would say, “the grass is green,” “the sky is blue”, “our house is white,” just if you can think of it in those terms, it can be really helpful, because you’re just stating a fact. And so that really helped me be able to say, “I’m going to say this directive in the same way that I would say any of those basic facts: put your shoes by the door, pack up your toys. We’re going to get in the car. Now it’s time for a bath.” And that really also goes back to being the captain of the ship, right? And being in charge, because we talk about how, if we’re on a cruise ship and all of a sudden you see the captain running around and screaming and hollering, we’re gonna panic. What’s happening? We’re not safe. It rocks the safety, the security. There’s all sorts of questions that come. Same thing happens in our house. Our children are reliant on us for that sense of safety, security, belonging, and if they see us having these really big responses or talking in this really aggressive manner, they have the same response. It rocks their safety and security. So it goes back to just steadying that ship and keeping the calm and using that assertive voice that’s not passive, and it’s also not aggressive. It’s just there and it’s clear. And it’s direct.

 

Kristina  15:01

So when we think about strategies to help discipline and guide your child, using an assertive voice is a beautiful place to start. It takes a lot of practice. It does. And if it’s the only thing you take away from today-

 

Heather  15:17

That’s a great place to start, a great place to start. 

 

Kristina  15:22

It is a great place to start. And people will give us feedback after they’ve learned this skill and say things like, “It was like a miracle. I couldn’t believe it. They respond so differently when I don’t ask it as a question.” You’d think some people think, “Ah, it’s not that big of a deal. It’s not that big of a deal.” It is a big deal. 

 

Heather  15:41

So let’s give them some examples.

 

15:43

Great.

 

Heather  15:44

Let’s think about how in our own homes, we have used the assertive voice. Let’s say we’re going to transition from our morning breakfast and we need to load up and get into the car. What is an example of something we could say to the child in that moment?

 

Kristina  16:04

“It’s time to load up into the car. You need to get your backpack, put your coat on and meet me at the door.” Perfect, beautiful. Now that’s if the child can handle that many steps at a time. When they’re really young, you need to give them one step. And sometimes we even need to say, “Put on your shoes like this. Sit on your bottom.” Yes, and show them or give them each individual step. 

 

Heather  16:34

We call that “painting the picture.” And we do this all the time when we work with young children, because it’s kind of a full-body experience for them, communication is, because they’re language emergent. And so we know young children look at all of our facial expressions. In fact, they focus on that, oftentimes more than our words, which is another reason why we don’t want to be in an aggressive state when we’re giving directions, because we’re not going to get our best responses. They’re going to be fearful, right? But, yes, when we can paint the picture and point with our fingers towards the door, “It’s time to head to the car. Line up by the door, or go to the door, get your shoes on. Sit on your bottom like this. Pull them on.”

 

Kristina  17:26

I love watching our teachers do this with kiddos. When they come inside and the teachers will give the directive,”It’s time to take your gear off.” Now they have visuals. Visuals are also a very powerful strategy to use with children. Wonderful tool. So they have visuals of a child first removing their boots, right? First thing you need to do is remove your boots, remove your hat, your mittens. Then you can move forward with a coat and snow pants or an Okie suit if they’re in their rain suit, but to just say, “Take your gear off to a child who does not have the skills to even know the order. Those darling children have no idea trying to get those rain suits off with their mittens still on and their boots still on, getting really frustrated because they can’t even unzip the zipper because they don’t have their mittens off yet. They don’t know. They’re not trying to be difficult. They don’t know.

 

Heather  18:27

Nope. And frustration increases, and then we’re stomping or shouting, “Teacher, Teacher, teacher.”

 

Kristina  18:33

And us, as the adult, we may be becoming frustrated. And so it’s like, over stimulated, for like for crying out loud, your boots have to come off first.

 

Heather  18:45

Which we know, but they don’t know. It’s a learning process. 

 

Kristina  18:49

So we’ve said this before. I’m gonna say it again, because it’s an important thing to know: children do well when they can. So if a child is not doing what you’re hoping they would do. It is because the expectation that we hold exceeds their skill level. So what we need to do is, instead of getting angry that they don’t have the skill, we need to think, “Ah, how can I help them grow this skill?” So the use of visuals is helpful, because as we walk alongside children, and they are gaining this particular skill, brushing your teeth. So there is a toothbrush, yes, I need the toothbrush, and I need the toothpaste, and I take off the top, I put it on my toothbrush. I get it wet, because I don’t like toothpaste, so it’s not wet. I get it wet. Brush my teeth. Then what I do? Glass water, I rinse my mouth, I spit, I wipe off my mouth. All of those steps, right? You can lead a child through those steps, but a visual allows them to gain some independence in that sooner than them just having to remember all of the steps in there.

 

Heather  19:59

Right. Because they hold open their mind differently, and they access it differently than they do words-

 

Kristina  20:04

Because that’s a lot of steps.

 

Heather  20:06

It’s a lot of steps. “Go brush your teeth.” And when you really break down, a lot of the things that we ask kids to do, most of them, are a lot of steps. And that’s why visuals are a tool that we use frequently, and that can really smooth things out for children. Let’s talk about even getting in the car. So we’ve got our shoes on. We’re at the back door. I’m going to open the door. We’re going to walk in the garage, and you’re going to get in the van or car, or whatever it might be, and it’s just like you’re narrating what we need them to do. And again, it’s the same voice as “the grass is green,” “the sky is blue,” and what that kind of narrating, or you can think of it as sportscasting, does it makes it very clear to the child what they’re supposed to be doing, when they’re supposed to be doing it, and how we’re going to move things along smoothly, and that increases, again, their feelings of security, because they know, they know the expectation. It’s very clear. It’s direct. It’s not aggressive. But it keeps them moving along, right?

 

Kristina  21:16

So this is a big skill to learn for the adults using an assertive voice, it absolutely is. But let me tell you why learning the skill is important. That does not mean that your child is always going to nod and say, “Okay, here I go. This is what I want to do. Let’s do that.”

 

Heather  21:36

Because, developmentally, they’re trying to grow their independence, and part of that is they’re going to kick the boundary and they’re going to push back and back and they’re going to say, “I don’t want to” or maybe have a complete meltdown.

 

Kristina  21:43

So, like I had said, first step learning that assertive voice. The next step is, well, what do I do when my child doesn’t do what I’ve directed them to do, when I’ve asked them? I’ve used the assertive voice. I haven’t said “okay” at the end. I didn’t use my “please” and “thank you” or “could you?”, “would you?” I gave the directive and they say “No,” or they run the other direction, or they have a meltdown, or they chuck whatever’s in their hands. What do I do now? There’s a process that we’ll use, which is three different steps. It is: empathy, expectation, choice, and this is a little three step process that you rinse and repeat as often as you must, until the child is able to comply. So this is what it looks like. It’s time to take your bath, and the child responds,

 

Heather  22:49

I don’t want to. I want to keep playing. 

 

Kristina  22:52

Oh, honey, I know you were having so much fun playing. Yeah, and it’s hard to stop.

 

Heather  22:58

I don’t want to.

 

Kristina  22:59

I know, honey. It’s time to take your bath. You may hold my hand as we walk up the stairs, or you may walk up by yourself. Which would you like to do? I’ll go by myself. Wonderful. Now let me just tell you what that was. One round we have gone six, seven, eight, rounds of that exact same thing. If Heather were to respond, “No, I’m not doing it.” You go back to empathy. I hear you. You’re feeling really strongly that you don’t want to take a bath right now. I get it. That’s really tough. It’s time to take your bath. So we did empathy. We restate the expectation, and then we give them a choice. Would you like to use bubbles this time or no bubbles? Now you can make that choice as fun as you’d like. It is not a place to bring in bribes where you would say “It’s time to take your bath. If you go up without a fuss, then we can…” Nope. We’re not going to have a bribe at this point. We’re going to state the expectation and a choice. The choices need to be things that you can live with, right? Do you want to use the purple shampoo that smells like lavender, or do you want to use the gold shampoo? Whichever would be fine with me. The child gets to choose. If they still say, “No, I hate shampoo. It gets my eyes. It burns my eyes.” You say, “Oh, I know when I get shampoo in my eyes. It burns my eyes too. Nobody likes that. It’s time to take your bath. Would you like to…” and then you give your choices again, empathy, expectation, choice. Now it is also a lovely thing to infuse a little humor into it, if you can, but you don’t want that to distract from here is the expectation. I can empathize with why you don’t want to do that. It is not the time to say “you’re being ridiculous. You Love baths. Let’s go.” Nope. So we return to that empathy, and the empathy needs to be as authentic as you can make it. Sometimes we’re frustrated, right? 

 

Heather  25:12

It’s taking me really long time. This is ridiculous. I don’t have time for this. I don’t have patience for this. And in those moments, I always try to remember, ‘Dang it, I’m the grown up. I’m the grown up. And dang it, I think I’m in charge here.”

 

Kristina  25:35

Even when I’m tired and I don’t have all my patience, I’m still the one in charge. 

 

Heather  25:39

You really just want to say, “Go take a freaking bath!”

 

Kristina  25:46

And then I’m gonna smell the lavender.

 

Heather  25:50

Cover my whole body in lavender. That’s

 

Kristina  25:52

That’s when your child says, “You’re speaking with passion.”

 

Heather  25:56

Exactly.

 

Kristina  25:58

So that goes back to how do you bring your calm into these moments? For me, it’s taking deep breaths, zooming back out.

 

Heather  26:07

And it might be that you have to tag another person if you have one, to be like, “Yep, this is not going to be my shining moment, please help.” And that’s fair. And then they can come in and be like, “Oh, sweetie. You and Mommy are really upset about the bath.”

 

Kristina  26:25

“Let’s all take a deep breath.” Yeah, sometimes they do need a different voice or a different face. Some of us have the luxury of having another person there that we can tap out with. Some of us don’t. So figuring out how to regain your calm, you can even say, “Boy, this feels like it’s really tricky tonight. I’m not sure why, but I’m here with you, and we’re gonna get through it together. It’s time for a bath.”

 

Heather  26:51

And for me, even saying, in that moment “I can’t wait till we can snuggle up and read a book” helps me get back into my frontal lobe to be like, “Oh, we’re gonna get to a better place.” And it might be enough for that child to be like “me too.” 

 

Kristina  27:09

That’s right. Books come after bath. So those three little steps: empathy, expectation, choice, over and over and over again take you out of negotiating. You’re not negotiating here. Take us out of threats or bribes or other things that we do just to try to move the child from point A to point B because we’re tired, because we don’t know what else to do. It removes all of that, and it keeps you connected with your child. I stay connected to my kiddo when I can respond with empathy to what they are feeling, even if it’s ridiculous in my mind, they are feeling it. So joining with them, continuing that attachment really important.

 

Heather  28:01

And really what we’re doing is building the resilience as well. And they need to know that as strong as they are, we’re strong too. And we demonstrate that through our calm, which is not easy. I say that and it rolls off the tongue like it’s so easy. It is not easy. It is not easy at all. But it helped me to always think, what do I want to teach? What do I want to teach? Because there are those moments as a parent where we hear something come out of our child’s mouth and it sounds exactly like us, and it does not sound pretty, and I think “I taught them that.” Like that tone or that passion, I taught them that. So that helps me to, in those moments, to think, what do I want to teach? And to just take the time, like you said, to calm ourselves first, because that increases their security. It models the skill for them. And it gets us all to a better place in the midst of what’s really challenging. 

 

Kristina  29:11

Yeah, parenting is humbling. 

 

Heather  29:15

Yes, over and over and over again, over and over and over, we need a good, solid self esteem to do this job. 

 

Kristina  29:22

Yeah, and you need to be able to phone a friend and say, “Wow, I did not show up tonight the way I wanted to.”

 

Heather  29:29

And we all have those days, yes, yes, we do. The reminder of we’re not perfect parents. Nobody’s a perfect parent. No parent. Everybody has these moments, and it goes back to being able to get through it. And then look at your sweet child hopefully as you’re putting them to bed to say, “I love you so much. We belong to each other. That was tough and tricky. I didn’t love it. It didn’t feel good to me. How did it feel to you? Yeah, didn’t feel good to me either. No, tomorrow’s a brand new day.” Yeah, can’t

 

Kristina  30:00

wait. So step one strategy utilizing an assertive voice. I encourage everyone out there to give it a try. It’s going to take some time to change from using a passive voice to using an assertive voice.

 

Heather  30:18

Or moving from an aggressive voice to an assertive voice.

 

Kristina  30:22

Yeah, and being able to use an assertive voice in a way like you would say “the sky is blue.” “It’s time for your homework.” Not Oh, this could be me in my home algebra. We’re doing algebra right now, and I’m not loving it. I’m not loving it. Neither is my daughter when it’s like, “Please do your homework.” No, that’s aggressive and passive at the same time.

 

Heather  30:47

And sends a message of that homework? It’s kind of pointless.

 

Kristina  30:53

Oh, don’t- Yeah, we don’t want to start there. I will say to my daughter, “It’s helping you learn a different way to think.” Yeah. She says, “When will I ever need to know how to do this?” I think, “Yeah, you won’t.”

 

Heather  31:06

My son asked me that same question, I think, and he was in geometry, and he said, “When in the world am I ever going to use this? I am never going to use this again.” And I said, “Oh, yeah, you will about thirty years from now, when your tenth grader is sitting at the table, and you need to help them with geometry.” You’re gonna use this. That’s one other time. Yeah, however many kids you have, you’re gonna use it that many times. Good luck and God bless.”

 

Kristina  31:36

I love it. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina

 

Heather  31:46

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina  31:51

See you on the trails!

 

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  32:08

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  32:15

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  32:28

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 11: Discipline Series, Part 2 of 3

 

In this episode, Kristina and Heather discuss effective discipline strategies that focus on children’s skill development rather than controlling behavior. They share the inspiring story of a father named Tom, who transformed his parenting approach over two years by focusing on personal growth, self-care, and understanding his emotional triggers. Tom’s journey involved improving his sleep, nutrition, and stress management, which led to increased patience and a stronger bond with his daughters. The hosts emphasize the importance of self-regulation, modeling calm behavior, and the long-term commitment to parenting. They also preview upcoming episodes on discipline strategies.

 

Personal Transformation and Its Impact on Parenting

  • Kristina introduces the episode’s focus on effective discipline that fosters skill development in children rather than behavior control.
  • Heather emphasizes the importance of understanding and managing emotional triggers to respond to children with patience and clarity.
  • Kristina shares an inspiring story about a preschool father who transformed his parenting approach over two years by focusing on personal growth and attachment with his daughters.
  • Heather highlights that the father’s journey involved not just changing tactics but also personal transformation, leading to a significant positive impact on his family. The episode will feature a dad named Tom who underwent a transformative journey in parenting, inspired by the ODC Network’s parenting classes.

 

Tom’s Parenting Journey and Challenges

  • Heather describes Tom’s active participation in parenting classes during the challenging year of 2020, seeking to improve his parenting skills.
  • They discuss how Tom expressed a deep desire to change his parenting approach, asking vulnerable questions about managing his emotional triggers and moving away from punitive models.
  • Kristina and Heather talk about the importance of self-care and personal transformation in becoming a better parent, emphasizing the need for rest, proper nutrition, and stress management.
  • Tom’s journey involved exploring foundational principles, understanding his children’s needs, and practicing new parenting strategies.

 

The Importance of Self-Care and Emotional Regulation

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the significance of self-care practices like breathing, mindfulness, and physical activity in maintaining emotional regulation.
  • They emphasize the need for parents to practice these skills proactively to avoid reacting in harmful ways during stressful moments.
  • Kristina explains the brain’s three parts: the frontal lobe (thinking brain), the emotional center, and the survival state, highlighting how emotions can lead to reactive behavior.
  • The conversation includes personal anecdotes about handling emotional triggers and the importance of modeling calm behavior for children.

 

Tom’s Practical Steps to Personal Transformation

  • Heather outlines the specific steps Tom took to improve his well-being, including increasing physical activity, decreasing screen time, and practicing mindfulness.
  • Tom implemented a mindfulness practice to recenter himself and focus on his goals as a parent.
  • These changes led to improved patience, increased playtime with his daughters, and a stronger attachment within the family.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the concept of a “well” and the importance of filling it with self-care to have the capacity to give to others.

 

The Impact of Personal Transformation on Family Dynamics

  • Tom’s personal transformation had a ripple effect on his family, improving his ability to manage stressful situations and connect with his daughters.
  • He became more patient and joyful in his parenting, reaping the benefits of solid parenting practices.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize that personal transformation is an ongoing process and not something that happens overnight.
  • The conversation highlights the importance of compassion and self-forgiveness in the journey of becoming the parent one aspires to be.

 

Strategies for Co-Regulation and Emotional Regulation

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of co-regulation with young children, who lack the ability to self-regulate.
  • They emphasize the need for parents to practice deep breathing and other calming techniques to model calm behavior for their children.
  • Kristina shares her personal experience with breathing and the importance of finding a calming space to practice these skills.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of modeling calming behaviors and providing children with tools to regulate their own emotions.

 

The Role of Personal Reflection and Self-Compassion

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of personal reflection and self-compassion in the journey of parenting.
  • They emphasize the need to unpack personal beliefs and experiences to understand and change parenting practices.
  • The conversation includes personal anecdotes about handling emotional triggers and the importance of finding a space for self-reflection.
  • Heather shares her experience of using a laundry room as a space for self-reflection and finding her calm.

 

Tom’s Commitment to Sharing His Journey

  • Tom’s commitment to sharing his journey and the positive impact of his personal transformation on his family inspired others.
  • He emphasized the importance of doing things differently and the joy of parenting when guided by solid parenting principles.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of celebrating small victories and the ongoing journey of personal and parenting growth.
  • The conversation concludes with a focus on the importance of commitment and the meaningful moments that come from being a parent.

 

Conclusion and Preview of Future Episodes

  • The next episode will focus on practical strategies for discipline, continuing to emphasize the importance of guiding children’s skill development rather than controlling behavior.
  • Kristina shares her motivation for attending parenting classes before becoming a parent, highlighting the challenges and importance of effective parenting.
  • The episode concludes with a preview of the next episode’s focus on discipline strategies and the ongoing commitment to parenting growth.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Note: 

In a prior episode, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 11: Discipline Series, Part 2 of 3

 

Kristina  00:00

In today’s episode, we’re continuing our deep dive into the world of effective discipline, not the kind that controls behavior, but strategies that help our kids develop skills.

 

Heather  00:12

Absolutely, it’s all about connecting with guiding and nurturing our little ones, rather than managing them, and a really big part of this is understanding our own emotional triggers. We all have them when we know what sets us off, we can intentionally respond to our kids with more patience and clarity.

 

Kristina  00:32

We also share a truly inspiring story about a preschool father who attended our in-person parenting classes two years in a row, he worked really hard to completely transform his parenting approach. 

 

Heather  00:47

We had the privilege of seeing him become the dad he always wanted to be.

 

Kristina  00:54

His journey involved more than just changing his tactics. It was about changing himself first

 

Heather  01:00

By understanding that discipline began with him, he intentionally worked to become more patient and focused on forming a stronger attachment with his girls. This was a game changer for his family.

 

Kristina  01:14

I love that. It really highlights how personal transformation can ripple out and positively affect our relationships with our children.

 

Heather  01:23

It sure can, and it’s so important to know that it’s never too late to begin this. 

 

Kristina  01:29

And that’s the essence of parenting. It is a longterm commitment. We’re not trying to control behavior. We’re actively modeling and then guiding our children to grow them into self-regulated individuals.

 

Heather  01:44

So join us as we dive deeper into some practical strategies that will help us embrace this journey. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  01:58

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  02:11

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  02:33

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  02:39

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  02:40

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  02:46

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:59

The ODC nNetwork is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives.

 

Heather  03:06

Please visit www.ODNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. Today, we will be talking about a dad that you and I have worked with who went on a journey for himself and his family. 

 

Kristina

I love, Tom. 

 

Heather

Yes, and Tom has been a gift to us, and he has really transformed himself into the parent that he’s wanted to become. I don’t know if he’d say he’s there yet, but oh, he’s come a long way. 

 

Kristina  03:47

Yeah, he joined us in our parenting classes he attended two years in a row. He did. We offer parenting classes locally. We’re in Holland, Michigan.

 

Heather  03:58

And that was during a little known year called 2020, so it was a-that’s important to say, because it was a tricky year, and in lots of people’s lives, and there was lots of time at home, and if you weren’t the parent you wanted to be, you couldn’t get away from that in the home like you normally could during other times.

 

Kristina  04:23

It was an intense time in a lot of ways.

 

Heather  04:25

Absolutely, it was. And so Tom had expressed to us – this is amazing. I love this information – He would come, he would sit in the front row of class. He and his wife would be there. And I remember him at one class in particular. It was probably during our discipline series. And we were all spread out for lots of reasons then, right? And so I remember at this particular time he was towards the back, and he said, kind of with his head in his hands, “But how? How do I do this? I get some of the what I need to do. But how do I do this? Because I default back so easily to the things I don’t want to be doing. So how do I even begin? Where do I begin? I get that I have to know who I want to be as a parent, that I have to have an understanding of what my long term goals are for my children and my family, that I have to be anchored in foundational principles that we agree on. How, in the midst of all of it, where the emotions and the intentions are high, how do I do it?” 

 

Kristina  05:49

Yeah, he had that wonder about: how do I discipline and how do I manage the times when I’ve been activated, when something that is happening has tapped me, and this other side of me emerges that I’m hoping won’t, but it does. How do I do that? Yes, that is exactly what he was saying, and it was a beautiful, vulnerable question for him to ask, and he was sincerely asking, and had quite a bit of emotion behind it. He did because he really wanted to do things differently, moving away from a punitive model, and trying to figure out, how do I incorporate all of this into our daily lives, and what do I do with my triggers? What do I do when things activate me and I respond in ways I was hoping not to.

 

Heather  06:43

And it took for him looking at kind of like we’ve talked about being the detective with our kids and going back to basics. He kind of had to do that within himself and explore how much rest mm I getting? How am I fueling my body. How am I setting myself up for success? How am I getting out any stress or angst? Am I working out enough? Am I maybe meditating and having focused time to practice being calm and being centered and breathing? I think those were very new concepts to him. We talk all the time about it. It begins with us. We talked last time about how I’ve never been able to control another human being, have you? No, we can’t. We can’t, right? And so all we can do is be the “captain of the ship” and be in charge, which means we have a voice of authority. It’s an assertive voice that we can scan the horizon. We can watch for icebergs or things that are going to get in the way of our path, and we can be proactive in changing our course to get around them safely, rather than being reactive after the ship has hit something right. And he had to do that, but he didn’t know how, and so he began on this: How do I begin with myself? And maybe get better rest and fuel my body differently, and read outside of what we had taught to gain further knowledge on what is this whole thing of attachment for kids? And, yes, I know it’s powerful, but why? And what is this whole concept of lagging skills and having appropriate expectations for two and four year olds? Yeah, what does that look like to have appropriate expectations and to set that up? 

 

Kristina  08:56

Wow. Yeah. You said something earlier that I think is so important, and that is when you said you need to make space to practice these things, because it’s not until we really develop a habit of finding our calm so that we can share it with our children. We have to practice that. It’s harder to do when your buttons have been pushed. Oh, and if you haven’t practiced it prior to those times, it will be that much harder to avoid what you’re hoping to avoid. 

 

Heather  09:33

If we’re waiting to practice in the heat of the moment, yeah, it’s going to be a much longer journey, because our our brain defaults to what we know and it wants what it wants. And when we get in our emotion center, you can guarantee those kids are going there too because we’ve led them there. Or they’re already there, and they need us to bring that calm. And we say they’re going to catch our calm, or they’re going to catch our chaos. And vice versa. Like it’s just how it works. 

 

Kristina  10:26

So I just want to take a moment to talk about – this is a very crude way of thinking of the brain – but when you think about the brain in three basic parts: the part up front, your frontal lobe, which is our thinking brain, is where we control our impulses. It’s where we are able to make decisions. It’s where we are in control of our language and our behavior. That’s all up front.

 

Heather  10:56

Thinking, problem solving center, calm.

 

Kristina  10:58

Then if you move back kind of midway down the brain is our emotional center, and that’s where we go when we’re feeling strong emotions, when we maybe are triggered, when we’re in the midst of upset or fear or anger or anxiety, grief, yes, even joy. It’s not just the hard emotions, it’s all of the emotions are in that middle part. When we’re in the middle part, we don’t have easy access to our thinking brain. It’s why, when we’re upset, we say things and we do things we would never do if we were in our calm,thinking brain. But because we’re in that emotional center, things come out of us. We make threats that are ridiculous. On our honeymoon, I can be a bit of a back seat driver, which has to do with my own… it’s shocking, isn’t it? It has to do with my own anxiety. But I do offer a little bit too much input there. And we were on our honeymoon driving and apparently had been just a little too much. And Vince said, “I am never driving with you again.” And he was in his emotional state because I had tapped him a few too many times, but that’s a statement that I was like, “How’s that gonna work for us? I mean, we’re just starting our marriage, and we’re never gonna ride together? It’s gonna be fun. That’s fantastic. That’ll be great.” So when we’re in that part in our brain, we do and say things we wouldn’t normally do. It’s when you chuck a plate and break it. It’s when you slam a door. It’s when you do those things that you think, “Yeah, that wasn’t the wisest thing to do.”

 

Heather  12:36

And it’s the pivotal point when you’re in that brain state. You’ve got two choices: we’re going up, or we’re going down.

 

Kristina  12:43

And if you’re going down, you’re going to that third part, which is your survival state, right? And that is when, whether it is reasonable to anybody else, you feel your survival is threatened. And some of us have a superhighway from our thinking brain all the way back to our survival brain. And, in your survival brain, it really is about distancing and protecting yourself from the attack. Whatever the attack may be, it is trying to find safety and that protection. And oftentimes, when we discipline, we are in our emotional state. We may even tip into our survival state when we’re feeling like we’re being disrespected. Or when we feel like we are not in charge, and it taps things from our past. We are, at the very least, in that emotional state many times, trying to regain control of another person, the child in those moments is most certainly in their emotional state, and they more quickly will go to their survival state. 

 

Heather  13:51

Because they’re little. They have fewer skills. They have fewer skills, fewer tools, absolutely. And less brain.

 

Kristina  13:58

It’s why it’s so important to practice. Because, like I said, some of us have superhighways that go from thinking to emotional to survival, and if we don’t practice the skills to keep us in our thinking brain during the times when we’re not triggered, you can bet it’s not going to happen when you are triggered. The other thing that I was thinking of, Heather, when you were talking about how to do this differently, you need to take a good, hard look at yourself and unpack some of those things. You also need to do that with a whole heap of compassion, because it’s easy to be like, “I’m not a good parent. I did that terribly. I’m doing these things that damage my child. I’m the worst.” And yet, when we’re unpacking where those things come from, saying “I can do it differently. It’s okay. I did the best I could with the skills I had,” and to move them from that place.

 

Heather  15:03

And it’s never too late. Never too late. And moving forward, I think, is the key there, because if we stay in that place of all of those guilty feelings, it doesn’t move us forward. No, it doesn’t help get us there.

 

Kristina  15:17

And it doesn’t help us guide our children, because we’re working from this place of this guilt and shame, absolutely.

 

Heather  15:35

So let’s talk about the ways that, when we want to make the significant shift, how do we go about finding our calm and keeping our composure to be able – we like to think of it as you had said, co-regulation. And children, young children, do not have the ability to self-regulate yet. And they just aren’t there. It would be an unreasonable expectation. So, when they become dysregulated for whatever situation it might be, and it seems like many of them are kind of trivial – Can’t get my mittens on. Why do I have thumbs? I hate my socks. It doesn’t feel right. I want the blue cup. Yes, the all of the meltdowns that can ensue. How do we begin in those moments?

 

Kristina  16:31

One of the things that I have noticed about myself on this journey is that breathing is really important to me. So is sleep. Oh, doogie, if I do not get enough sleep, everybody’s gonna feel it. So that’s a responsibility. I have to do my very best to ensure that I’m getting enough rest. So rest and breathing are super important. And I model that for my daughter and for others, when I am moving into the emotional part of my brain. When I realize I have been activated, I need three or four good breaths. Big breaths, in through my nose, out through my mouth. And, during that time, I think to myself, “Zoom out. Get a bigger picture of what’s happening. And consider what am I hoping to accomplish? What am I hoping to teach? What is my intention here?” 

 

Heather  17:34

What am I going to model? 

 

Kristina  17:35

Yep, what am I going to model? So, for me, that breathing is really important.

 

Heather  17:40

And it’s really hard. If we do this deep, deep breathing in front of children, we want to exaggerate when we’re teaching it to them, because it’s a belly breath. It’s deep breath where your belly is hopefully inflating and you’re holding and then it’s breathing out. It’s really hard for the child. It might take one or two or even three breaths, but it’s hard for them not to eventually capture that. As long as we’re not doing anything but breathing. If we give them words or other things to respond to, they will even make eye contact sometimes. But if we can be in their space, maybe not directly, looking at them, unless, of course, they’re being unsafe in some way, right? But breathing and modeling that for them, they eventually do begin to do it.

 

Kristina  18:32

They do. And as they get just a little bit older, I will say “I need to take some deep breaths. That will help me think.” And then I do that. Or “I need to take some deep breaths, because I’m getting upset.” And actually saying the words out loud is demonstrating to our children: you do have the option of doing some of these things. Breathing is what works for me. Moving to a different space is what works for my husband. He needs to move himself physically away from the intensity, and then he’s able to regulate himself. I have a dear friend for whom it is taking a walk. That’s what they need to do. When they become activated, they need to say, “I need to go take a walk.” A beautiful thing to do. Not “I need to go punch something.” I need to figure out a way to regulate myself,” which can be breathing, walking, listening to music, journaling, getting a big glass of water, doing things to help you return back to that thinking brain, so being able to figure out for ourselves, what is it going to be? Practicing that proactively so that we can do it in the moment, to bring ourselves back to our thinking brain, where we can share our calm, not invite them into chaos?

 

Heather  19:52

So let’s get back to Tom. And let’s talk about what, specifically, he did and how he began and really it became the deep desire to want to do it differently. So that was first. Then he began to look at himself. He didn’t immediately make changes that were going to impact his family. He began with himself and looking at the rest that he was getting, right? How much screen time he was taking in? And it was during a shutdown in 2020, so the reality was we were all heavy screen time, probably because there was only so many offerings for us. We couldn’t go out and be in the world like we were accustomed to. How much time was he spending outside in nature? And how was he connecting to the kind of spirituality that nature can connect us to?

 

Kristina  20:53

He really had to get back to those basics which we talk about when you’re searching for the “why” behind a child’s behavior. He needed to get back to his own base. 

 

Heather  21:04

What was he putting in his body? How was he hydrating? What was he using to hydrate himself? All of those things are the immediate things he did within himself: increased physical activity, decreased screen time, became better at breathing and learned how to do it really well. Got more sleep, became intentional about getting that sleep.

 

Kristina  21:29

And he even implemented some type of little meditation practice he did where he could re-center himself back on who I want to be as a person, who I want to be as a parent and find that really centered space, which was helpful to him. That’s helpful for some people.

 

Heather  21:48

Absolutely. So as that all began, it took some time. But it began to change who he was, how he interacted with the people in his home, and his ability to cope, and his reactivity. 

 

Kristina  22:07

Yeah, and I like to think about it as a well. We are each a well. And when we do those things, to take care of our basic needs, to tend to the things that help us feel well in the world, those are things that fill our well full of water, and when we’re full of water, we have plenty to give to others. What happens if we don’t pay attention to that or stay mindful of meeting those basic needs and finding the spaces to be able to proactively practice and to find your center is it’s like we have a leak. It depletes our well, it depletes our well, and then we don’t have it to give. So it’s kind of like the airplane, you know, when they’re doing the safety instructions at the beginning of a flight, they’ll talk about when the air masks descend, you need to put yours on before you assist somebody else. If you aren’t taking care of your basic needs, your well is depleted and maybe dry.

 

Kristina  23:13

And then how in the world can you give to the people that are around you? Give of yourself, give up your compassion, give up your nurturing. You don’t have it in you because you are dry.

 

Heather  23:27

It’s tapped. Absolutely. So that began to change for him. His well was getting on its way to being full. And then what happened was he realized, and we know this from all of our graduate therapy classes, that when there’s one role shift within a family, it affects everybody else. And so he began to see the power in his personal shift and the transformation that that was having in the family as children, because as he took care of himself and focused on rest and nutrition and activity and his mindfulness, he was more patient. He was more able to play for extended times with his daughter, the attachment and the connection with his daughters all increased, and it improved his capacity to manage stressful situations. He had a well to pull from, yeah,

 

Kristina  24:35

And because his well was full, not only was he able to manage those difficult situations in a way that he was hoping to, in a way that would benefit his children, and support their growth, he also was freed up to connect back into the joy of parenting, because his well was full and

 

Heather  24:56

To reap the benefits-

 

Kristina  25:01

So playing with them and laughing and marveling and who these little people are was something that wasn’t possible when you are, that-

 

Heather  25:11

He hadn’t experienced, right? He hadn’t experienced it. And he is, as we know him now, so passionate about getting that message to families: that it can be so joyful. It is really important. You as a parent can truly shape and grow your child into this wonderful person that they’re designed to be, anchored in what you created in your family. And that, for him, was really, really powerful, that he could have that impact, and he was doing it so differently. This was a two-year journey. He came to our classes two years ago. Yes, he did. Year one was when he was saying, “But how? And it was emotional. By year two, he was well on his way. And do you remember by the time we got to the discipline series in year two, I believe at the end of it, he spoke about how he had moved away from a punitive model in his home and from any physical anything. And he had actually had a conversation with a family member who cared for his children, and had used a punitive model. The caretaker. And he called them out and had a conversation. Very respectfully shared the “why” behind how he wanted them to be parented, and then asked for repair to be made to the child’s sense of safety and security. Do you remember that?

 

Kristina  26:53

I do. Yes, I sure do.

 

Heather  26:57

So it was a big journey. Yeah, it was not an easy journey,

 

Kristina  27:00

And he encountered, as we all do when we’re looking at how we raise our children, if we want to do it differently in the future, there’s grief that comes along with not being who we want to be during those times before we knew better, or maybe who they needed. Or before we had the capacity to even take a look at these things. There’s grief. And what I want us each to know is that, although there is grief, again, surrounding yourself with the compassion of “I did the best I could with the skills I had and the resources that were at my disposal. I’m choosing to do it differently. I can go back and say, I yelled a lot, or I X, Y, Z a lot, and I want to do that differently.” 

 

Heather  28:00

That’s the very famous notion of “we do the best we can until we know better. And then once we know better, we do better.” And that’s the story of Tom. He wanted to do better, and once he knew how, he did way better. And he deeply celebrates that joy of parenting. I think you would probably say his most rewarding experience.

 

Kristina  28:31

Yeah, just even when you look at him, he is so full of joy, this energy. Yes, the new Tom. So, like most of us, he had things about his life that he needed to unpack, and we need to be able to do that unpacking out of the view of the children as we wrestle sometimes with the way we were raised or the belief systems that we adhere to, the belief systems that came into our being, sometimes without even knowing it. But to say, “Oh, I really do believe that children need to act x, y, z. Is that reasonable? 

 

Heather  29:16

Is that developmentally appropriate? To begin to think differently? 

 

Kristina  29:20

Yeah, do I need to forgive my parents? Do I need to forgive my teacher? What do I need to do within my own self to be able to embark on this journey, move forward? Yeah, and he needed to do that. And we each find, in the midst of it, our way to return back to the person that we want to be, the parent we want to be. For me, it’s zooming out and breathing. For you, you have a favorite song that you sing when you’ve become activated that helps you be able to return-

 

Heather  29:52

Kind of my inner mantra, Hallelujah Chorus. Or “You’re going to miss this. You’re going to want this back. You’re gonna wish this day hadn’t gone by so fast.”

 

Kristina  30:03

And retreating to your laundry room.

 

Heather  30:06

Yes, singing-

 

Kristina  30:06

The Hallelujah Chorus.

 

Heather  30:08

There was always a lot of activity in my home. There was a lot of children. They were very active children. It can get loud, and there were times where I had to reconcile within myself, wanting to do it differently, having done it not the way I wanted to probably being angry entirely at myself, and then retreating to my laundry room, which is not a nice place. I’m just gonna like – it’s a functional space. It’s in our mechanical room in the basement. And it has, like, concrete floors because it’s an unfinished space within the basement. And I’ve tried to, like, put rugs down, but I kind of got to the place where I was like, “No, this place is just going to be the place,” like, laundry is monotonous to me, right? It’s just, it doesn’t matter what’s happening in life, laundry is a consistent just like taxes, but it’s always there.

 

Kristina  31:09

I hate taxes, but I do love laundry, because we take the dirty things and we make them clean again. 

 

Heather  31:16

Oh, that’s sweet. I’ve never thought of it like that. I hate it. It’s just always there. Yep, perhaps I should have thought of that sooner, but I didn’t, and it was just the place that I would retreat to and close the door. And I think because it kind of matched how I felt in the moment, like this is a dark it doesn’t stink, but kind of, I mean, the dirty laundry is in there. There’s also clean laundry, so whatever. But it’s like the imagery of, I was feeling cruddy on the inside, so I’m gonna go to the cruddiest place in the house, and I’m just gonna be in the crud. And I’m gonna dig my way out, sing my little songs. Gonna angry fold the laundry, I’m gonna find my way back to calm.

 

Kristina  32:08

Do you have a mirror in there? By any chance? Because mirrors help me the breathing and the zooming out and sometimes I literally need to look at myself in the mirror.

 

Heather  32:18

I think I would end up in hysterics.

 

Kristina  32:22

I don’t end up in hysterics. I give myself a little pep talk. Sometimes it’s like, “Look at your face. Who wants to see that face? Nobody. You look upset. You look angry. You look frustrated. So how about you change your face and make it match who you want to be?” 

 

Heather  32:39

Because, gosh darn it, people like me.

 

Kristina  32:47

So I would also need to give myself a pep talk, like “You can do it. You can do it. Breathe. You got this. Here we go.”

 

Heather  32:54

Yeah, that was a very different experience than I was having in my laundry room. Yeah, was more swearing because nobody else was around, and it was getting the junk out. I think for me, angry folding laundry. My husband is an angry raker. Oh, he goes out and breaks the acorns, and the kids will be like, “Where’s Dad?” “Oh, he’s angry raking” because he looks very committed to the raking, right? And he’s all in his head, and that’s what the laundry room was for me. It was the place where I would go and be in my head and reconcile things.

 

Kristina  33:28

So finding your laundry room or finding your space with your mirror, where you can talk to yourself and fix your face. We each need to find that place or that atmosphere where we can have our little “Come to Jesus” moments.

 

Heather  33:44

And that’s really what it was. I say that the kids would be like, “Where’s mom? In the laundry room? Oh, don’t go in there.” You’re clear until she comes back out. 

 

Kristina  33:53

But to have those spaces, because none of us are going to do this perfectly. We will all mess it up. We will all respond in ways that are not what we were hoping to do, because we’re human beings, and we need to find the place where we can get it out, and then we can forgive ourselves for doing it a way we didn’t want to do it, and then we can move on. 

 

Heather  34:18

Absolutely. I never wanted to slam doors. We have solid doors, wood doors, in our home. And so, when they slam, they slam really hard. But what I learned is we also have our deep freeze, our large freezer chest in the laundry room, and it’s like you can’t slam it, and it’s just you can’t, but it could be satisfying to try, because there’s tension there, yeah, so I would lift it and be like-it would give me the tension that I needed in the moment for like, I just want to slam something. 

 

Kristina  34:53

Yep. We were never allowed to slam doors growing up. And that was not something that was tolerated in my home. I. Really wanted to slam a door. Everything in me calls to slam so I said it’s fine if you slam doors in our house, but we live in a really old house where none of the doors really close very well, so it’s not satisfying at all. My daughter’s tried it sometimes, but it’s kind of like, whoa. They don’t really close all the way. So, again, like your freezer, maybe not as satisfying as it could be, but helps to get it out.

 

Heather  35:27

It did help to get it out. And it didn’t model anything destructive I felt like, but it gave me the pressure that I needed, and then could get me to a place of this is kind of ridiculous, so yeah, how about we turn the ship around? It’s kind of like your pep talk.

 

Kristina  35:47

Yeah, to myself with my bad face in the mirror. So I just wanted to share one more thing about Tom when he went on this journey and discovered who he wants to be as a parent, and began living that out, experiencing the changes he felt in himself and in his family, the changes he felt in his relationships with his girls, he would come back to us and say, “Everyone needs to know this. Everyone needs to know this. That it’s possible to do it differently, and what it means when you do.” Connecting back into that joy, having that secure attachment, powerful, very powerful. Not easy.

 

Heather  36:31

Not easy, but well worth and not done overnight. No, I mean, we said two year journey start to, I don’t know, I don’t think any of us ever say we’re finished. No, we’re just evolving and getting better. So long term commitment and so many powerful, meaningful moments with his girls over that time that made that journey so worth it.

 

Kristina  37:04

So that’s Tom, and I’m happy that we could share his story and what we learned from him. And hopefully what we can all learn about this process of becoming, again, the parent we hope to be, and specifically today talking about what that means for discipline. When we discipline our children. We’re going to continue this conversation, because discipline is a biggie.

 

Heather  37:30

Are we digging into some strategies next? That’s what we’re going to do next. 

 

Kristina  37:35

Yes. So in our next episode, we’re going to talk about strategies for discipline, the things to avoid, the things to really lean into. Because before I was ever a parent, this is kooky, but I did it. Before I was ever a parent, I used to go to parenting classes, and others in the room would be like, “Why are you here? You don’t even have kids yet.” I’d say, “Well, this looks like the hardest thing on the planet to do, parenting. So I want to learn as much as I can before I ever enter that zone of being a parent.” And one of the things I would hear commonly amongst people who are already parents, when asked what’s the hardest part about parenting was “getting my kids to do what I want them to do.” Control. Yeah, getting kids to behave the way I want them to behave, that’s the hardest part is what I would hear often. So, we want to talk about, what are the strategies, not to control, but to help grow your child’s skills so that they are able to meet expectations that are placed on them that are developmentally appropriate. So I can hardly wait for that. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  38:54

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until next time.

 

Heather and Kristina  38:59

See you on the trails. 

 

Kristina

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  39:16

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  39:24

Since 2000, the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands-on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  39:36

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 10: The Discipline Series, Part 1 of 3

 

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina discuss the difference between discipline and punishment, emphasizing a growth-focused approach. They highlight the negative impact of punitive models on children’s mental health and attachment. Sharing personal stories, they illustrate how modeling positive behavior and providing do-overs can foster resilience and healthy development. They stress the importance of co-parenting and understanding the root causes of children’s behaviors. The conversation underscores the need for a supportive, non-punitive environment where children feel safe to learn and make mistakes, promoting long-term growth and connection.

 

“And what we say in our preschool world is ‘Whatever we shine a light on, we’re going to get more of.’ So if we’re focusing on all of the negative that we don’t want to see, and we’re calling it out and giving it attention, giving it legs to go walking around, it’s going to go walking around.”

 

Introduction to the Discipline Series

  • Heather introduces the first episode of a three-part series on discipline, focusing on the difference between discipline and punishment.
  • Kristina emphasizes that discipline is about building connections and teaching skills, not just enforcing rules.
  • Heather acknowledges the challenge of shifting to a growth-focused, non-punitive approach but highlights its rewards.
  • Kristina mentions the importance of modeling positive behavior and the shared parenting journey.

 

The Importance of Connection in Discipline

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the significance of connection and understanding in transforming the discipline experience.
  • Heather and Kristina stress the importance of getting on the same page with co-parents or caregivers regarding discipline philosophies.

 

Challenges of a Punitive Model

  • Kristina explains that many parents were raised with a punitive model of discipline, which can impact children’s mental health and attachment.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss how punitive methods can lead to increased anxiety, depression, and a negative self-image in children.
  • They highlight the importance of understanding the neurodevelopmental impact of punitive punishment on children’s brains, emphasizing the need for a different approach.

 

The Difference Between Discipline and Punishment

  • Heather explains the etymology of the words “punishment” and “discipline,” showing that punishment involves chastising, humiliating, and inflicting harm.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the negative connotations of punishment and the importance of guiding, teaching, and modeling positive behavior.
  • Heather emphasizes that punishment can only control behavior temporarily, while discipline focuses on long-term growth and skill development.
  • They discuss the importance of recognizing and teaching lagging skills rather than just punishing children for not meeting expectations.

 

“I think all parents truly want what’s best for their children. They want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. So that’s ‘punishment’ – chastise, inflict harm, penalize. Then we have ‘discipline,’ which comes from a very different place. And it means to guide, to teach, to model, to encourage. It means to embrace the teaching of follow the example of and model life after…Very different. Feels very different. I want to be in the discipline camp all the time…And the thing to remember with punishment is that it can control a child’s behavior for only so long, because it’s really reliant on power…And so if we are trying to overpower people, it’s a very short term solution to something that really needs to be ongoing and lifelong.”

 

The Impact of Punitive Methods on Children

  • Kristina and Heather discuss how punitive methods can lead to increased maladaptive behavior and a negative self-image in children.
  • They emphasize the importance of understanding the root causes of children’s behavior and addressing them with appropriate guidance and teaching.
  • Heather shares a personal story about breaking a screen door when she was a child and how her mother’s humorous response shaped their understanding of discipline.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of modeling positive behavior and providing a safe environment for children to make mistakes and learn.

 

The Role of Connection in Effective Discipline

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of connection and attachment in effective discipline, emphasizing that children need to feel safe and secure.
  • They share a story about Kristina’s daughter, Grace, angrily throwing  her Winnie the Pooh figurine and how her husband’s response led to a negative interaction.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of co-regulation and providing support to children when they are dysregulated.
  • They emphasize the need for parents to model compassion and understanding in their responses to children’s behavior.

 

“And it really is looking toward the horizon, anticipating what is ahead in the work that we do with our teachers. There’s a lot of that work to say, ‘Where are the tough spots? What are the transitions or times of day that are particularly difficult for this individual, this student?’ And if we can know that ahead of time, then it is predictable. And then…we can come up with strategies for how to help the child be successful. And we can focus on what the missing skill may be that we need to help grow so that they are able to be successful…

 

But instead of just expecting that tomorrow, it’s going to be better because maybe you got cross. Or maybe there was a punishment that was given and that’s going to teach them. It teaches them maybe to be afraid of messing up. It teaches them to perhaps be fearful of their caregiver or the person imposing the punishment, to maybe not be truthful. Because we need to remember: children do well when they can. No child is out there trying to make your life miserable, because that’s fun for them. It’s not fun for them. They want to be securely connected to their caregivers, and it’s a primary need, right? And when we behave in those punitive ways, because the child has to, for their survival, attach to us, they have to make that attachment safe. So, in their minds, they are the problem. They are the ones that carry the burden for whatever the adult is doing. And those punitive methods crack that foundation. They crack that attachment. They rock that safety, security and belonging that we talk about is so important. And when we’re utilizing a discipline model, and kids can feel safe and secure and know that there’s a growth mindset and that they can get there yet..We used to say that all the time, ‘You’re not there yet, but you’re getting there. It’s coming. You’re growing, right? And you’ll be there.’ And, gosh, when they get there, it makes it so much more rich.”

 

The Importance of a Growth Mindset

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of a growth mindset in discipline, where children are encouraged to keep trying and improve.
  • They emphasize the need for parents to provide a safe and supportive environment where children can make mistakes and learn from them.
  • Heather shares a story about her son’s behavior and how a supportive touch helped de-escalate a tense moment while they were at church.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of understanding and supporting each other as co-parents to provide consistent and effective discipline.

 

“And when you mentioned wanting our children to grow up feeling safe coming to us with whatever it might be, that’s a long view. And it begins when they are very young. And they’re bringing you stuff that is, in our adult mind, maybe child’s play or minimal or not such a big deal, right? But we have to remember that if we don’t relish in the small stuff when they’re little with them, and find the joy and excitement and enthusiasm, they aren’t going to, when they’re big, trust us with the big stuff, right? 

 

And that’s on us to be worthy of them bringing us their things, of reminding them in those times, ‘We’re on the same team. We are in this together. We are here to help and support you, guide you, love you, and you don’t have to hide those things from us, because we are your people. We are your team.’

 

And that’s a very powerful message that aids in children feeling safe and secure and able to do the hard work of growing up, making mistakes, learning from them and moving forward.”

 

The Challenges of Co-Parenting

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges of co-parenting and having different philosophies about discipline.
  • They share personal stories about their own experiences with co-parenting and the importance of communication and understanding.
  • Heather emphasizes the need for co-parents to find common ground and support each other in their parenting journey.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of being open to learning and growing together as co-parents.

 

“…And that’s kind of how our discipline journey was together. It was like if he were me and he was walking the dock. It’s just how it was. It was kind of awkward and clunky. And there were times we thought we were going in the water. And we had to work it out. And it required a lot of talking and a lot of patience and a lot of understanding that we didn’t gain our philosophies overnight, and we don’t undo them overnight.”

 

The Role of Community and Support

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of community and support in effective parenting and discipline.
  • They emphasize the need for parents to seek support from their village, whether it be family, friends, or professional resources.
  • Heather shares a story about the importance of connection in de-escalating a situation with her children.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of being open to feedback and support from others in the parenting journey.

 

Conclusion and Next Steps

  • Heather and Kristina conclude the episode by emphasizing the importance of connection, understanding, and a growth-focused approach to discipline.
  • They encourage parents to continue the conversation and seek support from their community and professional resources.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Note: 

In a prior episode, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

 

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

 

Natural Start Alliance 

 

Children & Nature Network

 

National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC)

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 10: Discipline Series, Part 1 of 3

 

Heather  00:00

Welcome everyone to the first episode of our three-part series on discipline. Today, we’re diving into the difference between discipline and punishment and embracing a growth focused approach to discipline over a punitive model.

 

Kristina  00:13

That’s right. Discipline isn’t just about the rules, it’s about building connections and teaching skills. In this episode, we’ll explore how responding punitively can really impact children’s mental health and attachment. 

 

Heather  00:29

It’s a tough topic and also a crucial topic. Shifting to a growth focused non punitive approach is not easy, but it’s also so rewarding and helps build important skills in us and our kiddos.

 

Kristina  00:44

We’re not saying it’s simple. We’ll talk about how we’re all on this parenting journey together, learning and growing alongside our kids and compassion, both with ourselves and with our children, is key.

 

Heather  00:57

And sometimes, as parents, we’re not on the same page, and that can be really tricky.

 

Kristina  01:03

Absolutely. We’ll talk about how modeling positive behavior makes a huge difference. Kids are little sponges soaking up everything we do.

 

Heather  01:12

They sure are, and we’ll be sharing some personal stories in this episode to highlight the challenges and successes we faced in navigating discipline. 

 

Kristina  01:21

This discussion is all about how connection and understanding can transform the discipline experience.

 

Heather  01:29

Let’s kick off this journey together and explore how we can create a more positive approach to discipline. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  01:42

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  01:55

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  02:18

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  02:22

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  02:24

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  02:30

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:42

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives. 

 

Heather  02:50

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  03:00

Welcome back. We are so glad that you’re with us. Today, we are going to begin a conversation about a really big topic. Yes, we’re going to start discussing discipline.

 

Heather  03:16

It’s a beast. 

 

Kristina  03:17

It is a beast. It’s a really, really big topic to cover.

 

Heather  03:21

It sure is, and it’s a hot topic to cover. 

 

Kristina  03:23

We get asked a lot of questions about discipline, because it’s tricky. It’s something many times that we’ll think, well, we just do it. We don’t really have to think about it that much. 

 

Heather  03:36

And it’s one of those things that we think, in theory, is so much easier when we don’t have children, because we don’t realize your heart gets so tied up into all of the outcomes. And it’s like your little heart goes walking outside your body when you have this child, and you’re so connected to it, and you want to do so right by it, but you maybe have no idea how, all of a sudden, when, before we would see people in situations and think, “Oh, I’ll never do that,” or “My child will never behave like that.” Right? And we thought we had all of the strategies, but then, when we’re in it, it’s so different because your heart is in it differently. 

 

Kristina  04:16

Yep. You’re absolutely right. So we’re going to begin this conversation. This is not going to be a one episode kind of conversation. Discipline is a very, very big topic, and it touches us right at our very core. So why are we talking about it? We’re talking about it because it is something that everyone nurturing and raising children has to figure out. And determining what your approach to discipline is going to be, what your philosophy of discipline will be, and if you co parent or are raising a child with someone else, getting on the same page. 

 

Heather  04:56

Getting on the same page is huge. And we hear from people all the time that they are doing it so differently, maybe than their parents parented them, right?

 

Kristina  05:06

Absolutely. Many of us were raised with a very punitive model of discipline, punishment, obedience. If not at home, certainly in schools, right? We had the little clothes pins that you would move right? We all start on green, but oh, move it to yellow or move it to red. That’s actually a punitive approach to this thing we call discipline. So one of the reasons that we think it’s so important to talk about is because many of us were raised with a punitive model, and we tend to repeat what we were raised with.

 

Heather  05:47

Even if we have the best intentions not to, right in those moments of intensity, we default to what feels familiar. And so all of a sudden you can be in these heated moments, and something comes out of your mouth that is not at all your philosophy or what you intended. And it sounds much more like your childhood and how you were parented, but it came out because we default to the familiar.

 

Kristina  06:15

Yeah. And I’m not passing judgment on any of our parents or our parents. No. They were doing the very best they could with what they knew at the time. We know more now. We have all kinds of research studies that have been done, brain scanning that’s been conducted. We know more. 

 

Heather  06:33

Absolutely. And we have a vastly different world even than when you and I were growing up. Very different pressures. Very different environments. There’s just a lot of different dynamics and factors. They’re busier than they used to be. There’s way more stuff to be involved in.

 

Kristina  06:49

So some of the things that we know about a punitive model of discipline is that it does impact the mental health of those who’ve been the recipient of punitive punishment. My husband is a believer in what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. And I’ve said to him many times, “Well, actually, what doesn’t kill you oftentimes ends you in therapy.”

 

Heather  07:17

Disregulates your central nervous system.

 

Kristina  07:19

Absolutely. So understanding what punitive punishment does to the brain as far as how it actually alters the neuro-development of the brain. It results in individuals who are much more hypersensitive to their own mistakes, and less able to see the good, to hear the good, to believe the good, because they have a foundational belief that “I am not enough. I am bad. The world is a scary place, because if I mess up, there’s going to be something painful, either physically, psychologically, something painful will happen to me.”

 

Heather  08:06

There’s a connection to that inner voice.

 

Kristina  08:09

Yes. And living in relationships that are punitive: increase levels of anxiety, increase levels of depression, increase levels of feeling hopeless. It’s not good for your brain. It’s not good for your overall wellbeing. And it begins to erode the connection and attachment between child and adult, which we’ve spoken about before, is critical to wellbeing. So we know these things now. And many of us want to do it differently. We want to raise our children differently. We want to engage with children, whether they’re our own or others, in a way that allows them to be who they are doesn’t expect them to have skills they don’t have yet, and is designed to do something other than punish. We believe that with every ounce of our being and yet still, we mess up. A lot. Yeah, if my daughter was here, she’d say, “Yeah, work in progress.  Progress over perfection.”

 

Heather  09:23

And that’s okay, because you also want to model that perfection is not the goal. We’re all human. We’re all going to mess it up and muck it up. But really it’s about what we do in those moments that matters, those moments of when we’ve goofed it up. Yep, that’s the teaching moment. Yeah, that’s the other thing to say. Well, and we’ll talk about the differences in just a moment here about discipline and punishment, but a punitive model rooted in obedience doesn’t ever get to the root of the behavior, what skill we need to work on, what skill we need to teach we’re just demanding that a child sit there for a length of time, and you never get to why that might be a challenge, or is it developmentally appropriate,

 

Kristina  10:17

And in fact, maladaptive behavior, which would be behavior that we are hoping not to see, that occurs when our expectation supersedes the skills of the person that we’ve placed the expectations on, exactly that’s really important.

 

Heather  10:36

And then being able to recognize that and teach the lagging skill.

 

Kristina  10:41

And adjust your expectation until the skills have been developed to the point that the expectation can be met. We’re the ones, the grown-ups, setting the expectation. So I need to remind myself often that if a child is struggling, part of what they may be struggling with is the fact that they’re expected to do something they simply aren’t equipped to do yet.

 

Heather  11:05

And if we can’t get to a place where children are able to be successful, those kids get really good at failing.

 

Kristina  11:13

And they get angry, right? Because it’s never good enough. “I’m always in the wrong.” 

 

Heather  11:23

Well,it goes back to all the inner voice. What are they telling themselves about that fail? 

 

Kristina  11:28

Yep. So, actually, people who are interacted with in a punitive way, regarding punishment or response to choices and behaviors, it actually increases the maladaptive behavior because they have not been given the skills that they need, and so the behaviors that are maladaptive only increase again, because of their inner voice, who they believe themselves to be.

 

Heather  11:55

And what we say in our preschool world is “Whatever we shine a light on, we’re going to get more of.” So if we’re focusing on all of the negative that we don’t want to see, and we’re calling it out and giving it attention, giving it legs to go walking around, it’s going to go walking around. 

 

Kristina  12:33

I would love it, Heather, if you would help us understand the difference between discipline and punishment, because I think a lot of us mix the two up, interchange the two. We think they’re kind of the same thing and they’re vastly different. So help us understand that.

 

Heather  12:50

Yeah. Let’s talk about punishment. The word “punishment” actually comes from a Latin root of the word “punire.” It’s a verb. There’s no noun form of the word, and what that word means is to chastise, to humiliate, to inflict harm. None of those things sound pleasant at all. None of those things I don’t think we would typically relate to how we want to treat a child, or how we want to grow a child, and yet that is where the word punishment stems from, to chastise, inflict harm and to penalize. 

 

Kristina  13:33

You know, even as you say that, my whole heart gets heavy and sad.

 

Heather  13:38

Absolutely. They’re yucky terms. I guess as we look at children, we always want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. And those words don’t make me think growth in any way. They just have this yuck associated.

 

Kristina  13:55

And I thought that’s what we all want, right? To grow our children into the best version of themselves.

 

Heather  14:01

Absolutely. And it doesn’t mean we necessarily know how to do that, but I agree. I think all parents truly want what’s best for their children. They want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. So that’s punishment – chastise, inflict harm, penalize. Then we have “discipline,” which comes from a very different place. And it means to guide, to teach, to model, to encourage. It means to embrace the teaching of follow the example of and model life after. And we talk all the time about how discipline is really how you live. It truly is modeling and teaching and having those kids be able to follow the example of and you can just feel the weight in. Difference of the intention behind those two words and where they come from. Chastise, inflict harm, penalize, model, teach, lead, grow. Very different. Feels very different. I want to be in the discipline camp all the time. Yep, not that I always get there, because, you know, we can default back to some things that we don’t love, and that’s just a part of parenting and growing ourselves honestly. And the thing to remember with punishment is that it can control a child’s behavior for only so long, because it’s really reliant on power. And who holds the power and who wields the power. So when kids are little, we can pick them up and we can move their bodies, and we can get them where we need them to go, even if they are not wanting them. We can overpower them, right? We can make that happen. But my kids now, at the age that they are, like, that’s a very short term thing that can happen. All of my children are taller than I am at this point. The reality is they’re way more likely to carry me around than I can carry any of them around. They’re just younger and stronger and bigger. And so if we are trying to overpower people, it’s a very short term solution to something that really needs to be ongoing and lifelong. I have a twenty year old. I mean, we’re not disciplining him in the same way, but he lives in our home. We’re actively still guiding and teaching, and the stakes are high. He’s making important life decisions, and so discipline kind of goes on and on and on and on forever, and punishment, on the other hand, is very short lived, because it involves that power and control in whoever holds it is wielding that power. And then the other thing that we say a lot is, “Whoever is most committed to an outcome in this situation has the least amount of power.”

 

Kristina  17:23

Oh, I want you to say that again, because it’s something that we forget often.

 

Heather  17:28

The person most committed to an outcome has the least amount of power, meaning you’re kind of handing that power over to someone else because you are so committed and focused on that outcome. 

 

Kristina  17:43

And what we do in order to be successful in achieving the outcome we desire is we often tend to coerce, maybe threaten, dangle a carrot out in front if you do this, then I’ll, you know, we can go get bribery. We call those bribes. We do those things which doesn’t make anybody feel good. And when you’re in that position, at least for me, I often think, “Oh, nuts. She owns me right now.” She owns me instead of letting go of the outcome and remaining in charge. 

 

Heather  18:23

Yes, absolutely. Also, through a punitive model, we actually unintentionally teach kids some things like how to be better liars. We just get sneaky. How to get way sneakier, how to be better at kind of being bad, the things that we don’t want to see. We kind of train them in how to do those things right? Better to not get in trouble, right? Does that make sense? 

 

Kristina  18:52

Yeah.Because childhood is messy, right? They make mistakes. 

 

Heather  18:57

We all do. And they always default to this, “Oh, I’m gonna be in trouble. I’m gonna get so much trouble. I’m gonna get so much trouble.” Kids say all the time. I’ve heard so many teenagers say this in my home, “My parents are going to kill me.” And I always say to them, “No way. Your parents are not going to kill you. Your parents love you more than anybody in this world. And you need to not think that way. You need to flip it and reframe it to ‘I need to call my parents.’ And that’s a big shift for kids. And that, for my husband and I was one of the things that we needed to agree on, because that takes that future outlook of, again, what’s our foundation? What’s our goal? What are we committed to? Where are we heading? And I always wanted our children to think, “I need to call my mom. I need to call my dad.” Rather than “I’m going to be in so much trouble. They’re going to kill me.” Because kids say that kind of stuff all the time. And so we had to get on board together with that thought process, because not all people look out that far, right? And pre plan right? And we say all the time “being proactive right is way more powerful than being reactive.” Yeah, it truly is all about teaching and guiding. It’s about how we treat other people. It’s about the standard for how we treat people in our home. It’s how we respond in frustration. How we respond in anger. Because those kids are always watching us, and they’re sponges. They’re going to absorb. I remember seeing a visual. It’s a dated visual because it has some kind of stereotypical roles that aren’t true in today’s world, but it’s kind of like a comic strip, but it’s not funny. And it’s a dad coming home and kind of having a bad day. And it shows like yelling at this mom who’s in the home. And then it shows the mom going into another room and then yelling at the child. And then it shows the child going into a different room and yelling at the younger sibling. And that’s so true, how that goes. And if we can keep that picture in our mind of what we do, they soak in and then they pass on. So it is about all of that guiding. It’s about teaching. It’s about do we embrace a growth mindset? Is this a safe place to fail? Yes, we talk about failing forward. And is this a safe place to say, “I didn’t do that well?” Well, it becomes that place when we say “I messed that up.” Right? “I need a do over.” Those are the types of things that then you hear coming out of the child’s mouth.

 

Kristina  21:58

Yeah. And it really is looking toward the horizon, anticipating what is ahead in the work that we do with our teachers. There’s a lot of that work to say, “Where are the tough spots? What are the transitions or times of day that are particularly difficult for this individual, this student?” And if we can know that ahead of time, then it is predictable, and then we can pour into the child prior to those times occurring. We can come up with strategies for how to help the child be successful, and we can focus on what the missing skill may be that we need to help grow so that they are able to be successful. But instead of just expecting that tomorrow, it’s going to be better because maybe you got cross, or maybe there was a punishment that was given and that that’s going to teach them. It teaches them maybe to be afraid of messing up. It teaches them to perhaps be fearful of their caregiver or the person imposing the punishment, to maybe not be truthful, yes, because we need to remember children do well when they can no child is out there trying to make your life miserable, because that’s fun for them. It’s not fun for them. They want to be securely connected to their caregivers, and it’s a primary need, right? And when we behave in those punitive ways, because the child has to for their survival attached to us, they have to make that attachment safe. So in their minds, they are the problem. They are the ones that carry the burden for whatever the adult is doing. 

 

Heather  23:47

And those punitive methods crack that foundation. They crack that attachment. They rock that safety, security and belonging that we talk about is so important, and when we’re utilizing a discipline model, and kids can feel safe and secure and know that there’s a growth mindset and that they can get there yet is a big word. We used to say that all the time, and like, yeah, “You’re not there yet, but you’re getting there. It’s coming. You’re growing, right? And you’ll be there.” And, gosh, when they get there, it makes it so much more rich. It’s the sign in my garage: “This house isn’t perfectly put together, but our struggles become our triumphs. And that it’s a safe place to struggle and triumph.”

 

Kristina  24:38

Well, and when you mentioned wanting our children to grow feeling safe coming to us with whatever it might be absolutely that’s a long view. And it begins when they are very young.

 

Heather  24:54

And they’re bringing you stuff that is, in our adult mind, maybe child’s play or minimal or not such a big deal, right? But we have to remember that if we don’t relish in the small stuff when they’re little with them, and find the joy and excitement and enthusiasm, they aren’t going to, when they’re big, trust us with the big stuff, right? And there will be big stuff, right?

 

Kristina  25:22

And that’s on us to be worthy of them bringing us their things, of reminding them in those times, we’re on the same team, right? We are in this together. We are here to help and support you, guide you, love you, and you don’t have to hide those things from us, because we are your people. We are your team, absolutely, better or worse, we are in it together. And that’s a very powerful message that aids in children feeling safe and secure and able to do the hard work of growing up, making mistakes, learning from them and moving forward

 

Heather  26:12

I couldn’t have been more than four years old and my brother were nineteen months apart, so he was maybe six-ish or close to six. I don’t even know which one of us did this. This is in this is a famous story in my family. We lived in a ranch house. We had this sliding glass door in our living room that had a screen on it. And it went out to the patio, and then beyond the patio there was a swimming pool. And so it was kind of the hub all summer long –  in and out, in and out, in and out. And we used to lean on that screen door. We were told numerous times not to do it. But I don’t know what it was about it that felt so good. And so we did lean against this and our television was in there. So we’d just kind of be watching “Scooby Doo” like leaning against the screen door. Well, one day, that screen broke. And I do not remember to this day if it was me or my brother. All I remember is we both had really big eyes when it happened. And we immediately laid on the floor with our chin in our palms, like on our bellies, just staring at the TV, and we wouldn’t break from it. And I remember it was a Friday, because my mom was cleaning the house and Friday was cleaning house day, okay? And we were laying on our bellies on the floor, looking up at the TV. You know, our chins in our hands, and from our – what is this called? Thank you. Peripheral vision. We see our mother come down the hall and walk through and you know, it’s that moment where you’re like, don’t breathe, don’t move, don’t make eye contact. Don’t make eye contact. And she stops, and we’re like, “oh no, oh no.” And she backs up, and we’re not making eye contact, but you can see in your peripheral vision, she is looking at that screen door. And we’re like, oh no, oh no, oh no. And she says, “Kids.” And we look very sheepishly with terror, and she says, “What happened to the screen door?” And we’re like, “We don’t know. I don’t know.” And she’s like, “You don’t know?” 

 

Kristina  28:28

“No. No idea.”

 

Heather  28:31

“David, did you do that?” “No.” “Heather, did you do that?” “No. No, he didn’t mom. No, she didn’t mom. We told you I don’t know who did it.” We stuck up for each other so hard to this day, we’re like, who broke the screen door? We don’t remember, but neither one of us did it. And my mom looked at us both and said, “Hmm, that must have been one damn big fly.” And walked away. And we were like, ‘It was a really big fly. Did we just get away with that?” I’m sure we didn’t. Like we knew there was more to come. We knew my mother could look at us, and she’s a wonderful mother, and she’s also a powerhouse. So when you talk about leading by example, where do I get some of my chutzpah?

 

Kristina  29:19

Oh, no question, it’s Diane, right? Your mother, yeah, right.

 

Heather  29:24

But we also knew, like, when we were shot a certain look, oh, you had stepped in it. You had stepped in at large, and you were gonna be circled back to, maybe not in that moment, but it’s coming back. At some point. 

 

Kristina  29:39

It’s coming around. 

 

Heather  29:40

So there’s the screen door and the damn big fly to this day. I have no idea who did it.

 

Kristina  29:47

But even as you tell that story, I can feel in my gut, oh yeah, that fear. Nobody make eye don’t make eye contact.

 

Heather  29:53

No, no, no, no, no, no. Nobody. Admit it.

 

Kristina  29:57

Maybe this will just go away. Maybe it’ll just go away.

 

Heather  30:02

And my parents, both great examples. Wonderful people. But we all have these moments in our homes that take us by surprise. Because kids,  they’re brilliant and they’re challenging, and they have great ideas, and they have power in numbers sometimes. And we think, how do they come up with this stuff? And they catch us by surprise. And what are we going to do in those moments? 

 

Kristina  30:33

So the punitive model is that, you know, “Do it, or else. I’ll give you something to cry about.” And it is not helpful for growing healthy children, growing them into healthy adults. And in fact, it sets us up to think that kind of behavior is normal. You can choose to do it differently. It takes intentionality. It takes support from a co-parent or your village, because it can be counter cultural, especially to the older generations, where this type of model of discipline and really growing skills in children can look a little soft.

 

Heather  31:16

It can look soft, but it’s a lot of work. When you really understand what’s happening, it’s a lot of work.

 

Kristina  31:27

My husband and I will say this, and we’ve actually said this to Grace before, which I’m not proud of, but things like, she’ll do something, or she’ll respond in a way, she’ll behave in a manner that is not what we were hoping for. And my husband, or I will say, “If we had done that when we were young, wowza. There would have been a major punishment.” And I don’t know what we’re trying to communicate in the moment. I think we’re just trying to reconcile the fact that we’re doing it differently. We don’t need to say that to the child. And sometimes we’re surprised when, even though we want to do it differently, the old ways come out. I will never, never forget. Okay, so I know I’ve shared with you before that my daughter, Grace, who is amazing, also leaves kind of pieces of herself wherever she goes. She’s constantly losing things. Because, even as a toddler, when she was done playing with something, she would literally kind of throw it behind her, like, that’s in my past. I’m moving forward. So she lost her favorite toys all the time. And she loved the little like, figurines, yes. Oh, so she went through a real Winnie the Pooh phase. So she had little Pooh Bear and a little Rabbit and a little Piglet and a little Eeyore and Tigger. And one was certainly not enough, because they were always lost. So my husband, because he does things in big ways, we ended up with, I think, like 17 Rabbits and maybe 32 Poohs and all these figurines. I mean, all of these figurines. And at one point, Grace had, I had helped her, but we had set them all up on the table just to see the minions of Pooh figurines that we had in our home at that point. And they were all a little bit different. And so she had her favorites. And who are we going to play with today? Well, Vince had come home. And you know, when we’re in a surly mood, our children don’t become really compliant. They become a little more surly. So Vince came home, there was an exchange, and Grace chucked one of her Pooh figurines. Just chucked it. She was good at that. She liked to throw things when she was upset. I do too, honestly. So anyway, she chucks the Pooh Bear, and the response from Vince is, “You do not throw things like that in the house.” And she threw another one. And then he’s like, “That’s mine.” And he took those two figures that she had thrown. So she threw another one. He said, “That’s mine too. Keep going.” And my little. I mean, she was, what, maybe two and a half, three. She took those arms and she cleared the whole table of all of the Pooh figures. They’re all gone. 

 

Heather  34:15

You know he’s gathering them. 

 

Kristina  34:17

Oh, I know. I said to him at that point again, my mother would not be approve of this language, but I said, “You do not get in a pissing match with a two year old. That’s ridiculous. She’s not able to control herself. She doesn’t have the skills to manage her level of dysregulation. She needs to co regulate with us. So when we meet her dysregulation with our dysregulation, holy moly, and all that energy goes up. And everything, you know, kind of devolves into this, and they match each other.

 

Heather  34:54

And it’s like you threw a line and somebody got hooked. And then there’s this wild reeling and the fishes trying to, you know, somebody’s being the fish, and somebody’s winding them in.

 

Kristina  35:07

Oh man. So sometimes we show up in ways that are not what we were hoping. And so how do you reel that back? How do you apologize to your child when you model or behave in a way that’s not what you were hoping for? And now what you want to teach, right? We have a sign in our house that says, “May I have a do over please?” So we did a lot of do overs. We still do if there’s a tone that is not something we would hope for, it’s like, “Hey, try that again. Let’s take a breath and try that againHas to be done in a loving way. Because let me tell you, if your pre teen gives you sass and you say, “Try it again,” and they come back with sass and you say, “Try it again. Try it again.” 

 

Heather  35:56

There’s energy there.

 

Kristina  35:57

That’s not getting you where you want to go, but allowing people to make mistakes, because we are human, after all, and to try it again is a really lovely, compassionate way to help kids grow skills. The first step really is determining “What’s my philosophy? What’s my approach? What am I hoping to accomplish?” And then am I able to find a compromise so that I have a common understanding. If I’m fortunate enough to co-parent with somebody else, or for the people who are in my village, because both of us had partners where we were not on the same page?

 

Heather  36:38

Yes, I think that’s important to talk about, because I don’t think it’s easy for our husbands to be married to clinical social workers. First off, because we were trained in human behavior, we’re trained in child development, and it’s not easy being married to us, because we have opinions on things. And then we have this philosophical knowledge and research and we know things. And it can feel sometimes like we’re preachy to our husbands. I’m sure it feels that way. And I like to say to my husband, “But you have all of these skills that I couldn’t possess.” Like, yes, it’s kind of a challenge that my area of study and education and knowledge also really applies in our home with the children. My husband loves to boat, and I get wildly seasick unless we’re moving fast on a boat. If we stop and there’s rollers, it’s terrible. I am always vomiting. And I am not good on docks. You should see me walk on a dock. My children are like, “Are you impaired in some sort of significant way?” Yes, but I think what it is maybe a height thing, or it’s like a depth perception. And so I’ll say to my husband, “Watch me walk on this dock, because it’s kind of like how we had to figure out our parenting journey.” And he’ll come alongside me and be like, ‘You look so ridiculous I can’t not help you.” And I’m like, “Amen. I felt the same way in our home.” You know, and that’s not a jad. It’s not a jab. But you have to get to that place where you can be like,”We’re all not good at everything.”

 

Kristina  38:29

It’s not a jab. It’s a realization, though, yes.

 

Heather  38:33

And so I feel like there needs to be a video of me walking on a dock, because even I’m aware of how awkward and terrible it looks but I can’t help it, it’s just how I am. And we have a boat that’s at a marina all summer, so I look dumb a lot. The kids are like, “Oh, just go past mom, because it’s gonna take her like, seven minutes to get down this twelve foot stretch.” So and even that, in that example, there’s great modeling for your children. It’s like, “Yeah, I’m not good at this. In fact, I like, legit suck at this. And I don’t know why, but there is some sort of fear kind of around it, or like, I feel like I’m not well in my body, in that space, and to let my kids see that and see me not be good at it, you know, like their dad could cartwheel down the dock and their hands sprang off of it and back flip on it, and then I’m like, one foot in front of the other, and that’s kind of how our discipline journey was together. It was like if he were me and he was walking the dock. It’s just how it was. It was kind of awkward and clunky. And there were times we thought we were going in the water, and we had to work it out, and it required a lot of talking and a. Lot of patience and a lot of understanding that we didn’t gain our philosophies overnight, and we don’t undo them overnight. Very good point and to be able to tap one another in. I distinctly remember, as we were working through this process, being in church, my husband thinks it’s a skill that I have, that we have five people in our family, me being one, but that I can he’s like, how are your arms long enough to touch all of us when we’re sitting all in a line in church? But I don’t know. I just like to because I know connection and touch is so important, at least to my children and to my husband as well, it brings calm, yeah. And so sitting in church isn’t always the easiest thing to do as a family with small children. And I think Luke was on the very end, and then it was Zack, and then it was my husband myself, and Ava was on the other side of me, and I could sense and see that there was something happening between our oldest Zack, who was probably eight or nine at the time, and Travis, because they are quite alike in some ways, and they posture, and when one of them begins, it’s kind of like Grace and Vince with the Pooh Bears, like the other one responds. And so I could sense that there was this tension. I could sense that there was this posturing happening. And you’re in church. It’s quiet. You’re on display. That doesn’t bother me as much, but I know it bothers my husband, because he feels like he has an audience. And so I just leaned over and said to him, “Put your hand on his leg.” Meaning, put your hand on Zack’s leg, because he’s trying not to use words, but yet he’s trying to discipline in some way, and I wasn’t sure what had transpired. And he looks at me like, “Whatever.” But he puts his hand on Zack’s leg and kind of pats it gently, and it leaves it there. And Zack leaned into him, lay his head on his shoulder. And then my husband looked at me like, “I don’t like you. Why do you know this?” Because it was so contrary to what felt natural to him. Because I think what he probably wanted to do was say, “Knock it off.” And I don’t even know what was happening, but just that touch and that connection softened everything. But it’s not easy being our husbands, probably for lots of reasons.

 

Kristina  42:46

But there are some perks that go along.

 

Heather  42:50

True. But I think that can be tricky. And I think it can be tricky in any relationship where you maybe don’t agree on those philosophies. 

 

Kristina  43:00

And as I hear you talk about that story with Travis and Zack, I think to myself, the act of Travis putting his hand on Zack’s leg was an act of saying, “We are not opposed. We are together.”

 

Heather  43:16

“Yeah. And I belong to you. You belong to me.”

 

Kristina  43:19

And, wow, what a really powerful.

 

Heather  43:23

Which is who I am all day long. And my husband would be like, “But is that gonna keep them from dot, dot, dot?” And the answer is “Yes, much more than fear or shame, actually.”

 

Kristina  43:38

We are really looking forward to continuing this conversation about discipline. Thank you so much for joining us for gear up adventures in parenthood. I’m Kristina

 

Heather  43:54

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  43:58

Until next time see you on the trails. The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  44:16

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  44:24

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  44:36

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Bonus Episode – Gratitude: A Powerful Parenting Tool

 

Clinical social workers Kristina and Heather discuss the critical role gratitude plays in parenting, specifically in shifting mindsets from victimhood to resilience. They highlight practical strategies like expressing gratitude at dinner, keeping gratitude jars, and using visual reminders. Gratitude is linked to improved mental health, reduced depression and anxiety, and enhanced happiness. They stress the difference between genuine gratitude and toxic positivity, advocating for authentic expression and critical thinking. They share personal stories that illustrate how gratitude can transform negative situations into opportunities for growth. They also discuss modeling gratitude and involving children in giving activities, such as leaving pennies for others to use for a fun activity for kids at a local grocery store chain.

 

The Importance of Gratitude in Parenting

  • Kristina introduces the topic of gratitude in parenting, emphasizing its significance in shifting mindsets from victimhood to resilience.
  • Heather explains that gratitude is not just a “feel-good” concept but an important tool that can make a huge positive impact on mental health and happiness.
  • Kristina highlights the importance of parents modeling gratitude through our daily language and actions.
  • Heather mentions simple practices like expressing gratitude at dinner, keeping gratitude jars, and having visual reminders to instill this mindset in children.

 

Modeling Authentic Gratitude and Avoiding Toxic Positivity

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of authentic gratitude rather than toxic positivity, which does not allow for critical thinking.
  • Heather shares her experience of making gratitude a practice at the dinner table, engaging the family in conversations about what they are grateful for.
  • Kristina emphasizes the need to shift from a victim mentality to a grateful one, which helps in maintaining a positive outlook, even during challenging times.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that gratitude keeps individuals in a more executive state, promoting reason and logic over emotional overwhelm.

 

Some Practices to Foster Gratitude

  • Kristina and Heather discuss concrete practices to foster gratitude, such as keeping a gratitude jar or a visual reminder like a gratitude board.
  • Heather shares her experience of involving children in giving, such as leaving pennies for others to ride a mechanical pony at the grocery store.
  • Kristina talks about a preschool class that painted rocks with positive messages and scattered them to spread joy.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of making gratitude practices visual and intentional to help children understand and practice gratitude.

 

Gratitude in Daily Life and Its Impact

  • Heather and Kristina share personal stories of how they model gratitude in daily life, such as expressing gratitude for patience when running late.
  • Heather talks about the impact of gratitude on brain states, keeping individuals in a more executive state and promoting a calmer, happier life.
  • Kristina shares an example of how gratitude can change the energy in a room, making it more positive and less overwhelming.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of modeling gratitude for children, helping them develop a genuine appreciation for life’s blessings.

 

Gratitude in Challenging Situations

  • Heather shares a story about her son Zack’s car accident and how gratitude helped him shift his perspective from a victim mentality to seeing the opportunity for growth.
  • Kristina shares a personal story about her daughter Grace breaking her arm and how gratitude helped her as a parent shift from a negative outlook to a positive one.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of reframing situations to find something to be grateful for, even in challenging times.
  • They discuss how gratitude helps in maintaining a positive outlook and promoting resilience in both children and adults.

 

Gratitude as a Foundational Value

  • Heather and Kristina talk about gratitude as one of the foundational values they teach their children.
  • They share how gratitude impacts not only the individual but also those around them, creating a positive ripple effect.
  • Heather shares an example of how her children learned to give by leaving pennies for others to ride a mechanical pony at the grocery store.
  • Kristina talks about a preschool class that painted rocks with positive messages and scattered them to spread joy, teaching children to think about others’ happiness.

 

Gratitude in Education and Community

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how gratitude is incorporated into their work with children and families, such as using gratitude trees in classrooms.
  • They share how gratitude practices help children develop a sense of appreciation and connection to their community.
  • Heather talks about the impact of gratitude on mental health and overall well-being, both for children and adults.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of making gratitude practices intentional and visual to help children understand and practice gratitude.

 

Gratitude as a Tool for Developing Resilience

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how gratitude helps in building resilience and promoting a positive outlook in both children and adults.
  • They share personal stories of how gratitude has helped them shift from a victim mentality to a more resilient one.
  • Heather talks about the impact of gratitude on brain states, keeping individuals in a more executive state and promoting a calmer, happier life.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of modeling gratitude for children, helping them develop a genuine appreciation for life’s gifts.

 

Gratitude in Daily Routines and Family Life

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how gratitude can be incorporated into daily routines, such as expressing gratitude at dinner or keeping a gratitude jar.
  • They share examples of how they involve their children in gratitude practices, such as leaving pennies for others to ride a mechanical pony.
  • Heather talks about the impact of gratitude on mental health and overall well-being, both for children and adults.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of making gratitude practices intentional and visual to help children understand and practice gratitude.

 

Gratitude as a Lifelong Practice

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how gratitude is a lifelong practice that can be taught and modeled for children.
  • They share personal stories of how gratitude has impacted their own lives and the lives of their children.
  • Heather talks about the importance of making gratitude practices intentional and visual to help children understand and practice gratitude.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of modeling gratitude for children, helping them develop a genuine appreciation for life’s blessings.

 

 

 

Further Reading:

 

Reference note: 

In Episode 8, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 8: Boundaries and Expectations, Part 2 of 2

 

In this episode Kristina and Heather, clinical social workers, discuss the importance of setting realistic expectations for children, balancing effort with perfectionism, and establishing clear, consistent boundaries. The conversation highlights the benefits of natural consequences over imposed ones and the necessity of following through with consequences. They emphasize the significance of body language, empathy, and offering choices, sharing personal anecdotes about handling a child’s perfectionism and the impact of forgetting items at school. They discuss how important it is to set developmentally appropriate expectations and how important, yet challenging, it can be for parents to be consistent role models.

 

Setting Realistic Expectations for Children

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of setting realistic expectations for children, emphasizing the balance between encouraging effort and not demanding perfection.
  • They highlight the need for clear, consistent boundaries and developmentally appropriate expectations.
  • The conversation includes strategies for establishing these expectations in their homes, such as offering choices and setting good examples.
  • Kristina and Heather stress the importance of following through with consequences and the benefits of natural consequences over imposed ones.

 

Balancing Effort and Perfectionism

  • Heather shares her experience of holding high expectations while also emphasizing the message of: “your best is always good enough.”
  • Kristina talks about dealing with a child who tends towards perfectionism, suggesting a reasonable amount of time and effort before moving on.
  • Heather recounts a story about explaining to her child the reasons behind her drawing skills and the importance of practice.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of determining and growing in the knowledge of who their child is and how to hold expectations appropriately.

 

“…So it’s determining, as a parent, who your child is, and is it the ‘we expect your best,’ or is it the ‘we expect a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable effort,’ because you have the child who whose paper is never done, because they can always edit and rewrite it one more time to make it better.

 

…In our home, we interpreted that to mean that we don’t demand perfection. We expect your best effort, and if that’s what’s produced from your best effort, that’s good enough. Doesn’t have to be perfect. Doesn’t have to be what you saw in your mind. But if you gave your best effort, not asking you to do it seventeen times. We asked for a best effort.”

 

Empathy and Communication in Parenting

  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of empathy in parenting, sharing personal stories of how they handle their children’s emotions and frustrations.
  • They discuss the need for clear communication and setting boundaries, such as not allowing children to play parents against each other.
  • Heather shares a rule they had in their home about not asking the other parent if the first parent said “no.”

 

Handling Interruptions and Setting Boundaries

  • Heather and Kristina discuss strategies for handling interruptions, such as acknowledging the child and giving them a minute to speak.
  • They emphasize the importance of being consistent and clear with boundaries, even when it’s difficult.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of body language and non-verbal cues in communicating with children.

 

Developmentally Appropriate Expectations

  • Kristina and Heather further discuss the importance of having developmentally appropriate expectations for children.
  • They emphasize that children develop at their own pace and that it’s not helpful to compare them to older children.
  • Kristina talks about the importance of being a safe caregiver and not making children feel like they don’t measure up.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of being an ally to their children and apologizing when they behave poorly.

“We also need to have developmentally appropriate expectations, because our kids start real, real little with developing brains that do not have a lot of skill and capacity. And then, as they grow, they gain more skill. Hopefully, because we’ve taught them and they gain more capacity, right? 

And that if a child is exhibiting maladaptive behavior, it is most often because we have set an expectation they are not able to meet. They do not have the skills to meet it. If it’s an expectation that they have previously been able to meet, then we move into being the detective of our home and searching for the “why this child not able to meet this expectation at this time, in this moment?” because there is a reason. If they could do it before, and they can’t do it now.”

 

Setting and Enforcing Boundaries

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of setting clear, intentional boundaries and enforcing them consistently.
  • They talk about the importance of being firm but also reflecting on the boundaries to see if they need to be adjusted.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter wanting to stay up later and how they eventually moved the bedtime boundary.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of being consistent and clear with boundaries, even when it’s difficult.

“…Because we’re only as good as our reliability and our consistency. And that can trip us up, because it can be so tempting to move that fence for lots of different reasons. But our consistency is really what matters here, because that’s what goes back to being clear, and we say ‘clear is kind.’ And clear really is kind. When we can be consistent and our kids know exactly what to expect, it goes so much better.”

 

The Role of Body Language and Non-Verbal Cues

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of body language and non-verbal cues in communicating with children.
  • They emphasize that children are experts at reading facial expressions and body language.
  • Kristina shares a story about a child she worked with who always wanted the blue napkin and how she handled it.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of being aware of their facial expressions and body language to communicate effectively with their children.

“Our faces and our reactions…they know by looking at us if we’re angry, if we’re frustrated, there doesn’t have to be any words coming out, and they will know…children have only had that to rely on with their primary caregivers since they were born, before they were verbal. So they are experts at knowing what gets us going, what makes us angry, what causes us to react…We just have to remain, as parents, so aware of our facial expressions and our body language, because that is 90% of communication to kids.”

Offering Choices and Setting Good Examples

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of offering choices to children and setting good examples.
  • They talk about the importance of being consistent and clear with boundaries and offering choices within those boundaries.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of being consistent and clear with boundaries, even when it’s difficult.

 

Handling Consequences and Natural Consequences

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of following through with consequences, whether natural or logical.
  • They talk about the importance of being consistent and clear with consequences and the benefits of natural consequences.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter writing on her body with ink and how she handled it.
  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of being consistent and clear with consequences, even when it’s difficult.

“You get what you get and you don’t throw a fit.” They do throw a fit. They do, when they don’t get what they want. And we have a choice to either say, “Fine, I’m going to go find the blue napkin,” or I’m going to say to this other child, “Is it okay if I take that blue napkin and give it to the child who demands the blue napkin?” 

Or do I hold the boundary of “you get what you get, and you don’t throw a fit,” and say, “I know you got the orange napkin. You were really hoping for the blue napkin. Today you have the orange. Oh I hear you. Wow. You are really upset about that. Yeah, you really hoped for the blue napkin today you have the orange and I know you can do it.” I know you can do it. 

Right? Rinse and repeat. Empathy and then the reminder that you can do it: “You’ve got this.” And allowing them to move through that upset to the point where they can say, “Okay, well, I guess if I want a snack..I mean, I’m using the orange napkin.” But, boy, is it tempting to just be, like, “I’m just gonna get that blue napkin, because the screaming needs to end.”

 

Building Problem-Solving Skills in Children

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of building problem-solving skills in children.
  • They talk about the importance of allowing children to develop their own problem-solving skills and not rescuing them every time.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter forgetting things and how they established a system to help her remember.

“So my recommendation for parents…the first time your child forgets their whatever – science project, water bottle, headphones, lunch, money – whatever it might be, that the first time, if at all possible, you bring the item to them. And that is then when you establish the boundary of “You need to have what you need to have to leave the house in the morning. I will not be making runs to bring you things.” 

Now, establishing the boundary is not enough. You also have to work with your child to come up with a system that is going to help them until they build the skill to remember those things on their own. What is the double-checking system that you have everything you need before you leave the door? Is it a list that we make the night before and we tape to the door?..Do we have a little dry erase board?…So you have that checklist before you leave the home of the items that you need. And each day, especially in the beginning, you do that checklist with your child, if that’s what’s going to work for them. 

It could also be that you prepare those items with your child that need to go with you in an area. They’re all here. We’re not searching for them in the morning. We don’t have to remember that. Today’s the day I need to bring my gym shoes, because we already have your gym shoes sitting by your things to leave.

 

Further Reading and Resources:

 

Reference Note: 

In this episode, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

 

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N 

Natural Start Alliance 

Children & Nature Network

National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC)

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 8: Boundaries and Expectations, Part 2 of 2

Kristina  00:00

In this episode, we continue our conversation about boundaries and expectations, focusing on the importance of setting realistic expectations for our children. 

 

Heather  00:11

We explore finding the balance between encouraging effort and not demanding perfection, especially for children with perfectionistic tendencies.

 

Kristina  00:19

We talk about setting clear, consistent boundaries, and the importance of having developmentally appropriate expectations. We’ll share some ways we establish these for our kids in our homes.

 

Heather  00:30

We also discuss the impact of body language and non-verbal cues on children, the importance of empathy, offering choices and setting good examples. 

 

Kristina  00:40

We wrap up by reminding ourselves how important it is to follow through with consequences and the benefits of natural consequences over imposed ones. Easier said than done. Right?

 

Heather  00:50

Absolutely. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  01:00

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma,

 

Heather  01:13

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  01:35

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  01:41

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  01:41

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  01:47

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  01:59

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives. 

 

Heather  02:08

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. So let’s talk about expectations. I feel like in our home, we held pretty high expectations. It was also our value that your best was always good enough, right? But we expected your best. And I think it’s tricky as kids grow too sometimes you know you want your expectations to be high enough that they have to work a bit. They have to have some grit. We’re trying to build resilience. We want them to be problem solvers, at least we did in our home, right? We want them to not give up so quickly. We want them to work enough at it, but also still be successful, because, like we said, if children can’t be good at succeeding, they can get tempted to be good at failing. So how do you feel? In your home you held those expectations to a standard.

 

Kristina  03:18

I love “your best is always good enough.” If you have a child who tends to be perfectionistic, I come at that a little differently. So that was my Grace. Things were never the way that she envisioned them to be, right? Her drawings never turned out the way she had envisioned them. 

 

Heather  03:39

What she was going for, when they can’t get out their hand what they see in their mind, I feel like that’s a whole training ground, right? There it is.

 

Kristina  03:47

And so for Grace, for whom that perfectionism is part of who she is, it’s also part of my nurturing, which I need to own, which comes out of my own perfectionism. But for Grace, I would often say, “Reasonable amount of time. Reasonable effort. And then we move on.” So it wasn’t a “I have to crumple up the paper. I have to do it over and over and over and over and over and over and over, because it’s not looking the way I want it to look, and I’m getting so frustrated about it, right?”

 

Heather  04:19

Because that’s wanting to achieve perfection. Yes, whatever she saw in her mind. Yep, I remember Ava verbalizing to me, ‘Why can you draw so good? And I’m not good at it at all?” I’m like, ‘Sweetheart. I am at that time, I was like, 40, so I’m like, sweetheart. I am, like, way older than you. My hand is fully developed. It might have arthritis. I got all the bones I need in my hand, like it’s all developed. You’re just this little person who’s just getting there, like you are just perfecting how to hold this pencil.” But she wanted to be able to draw. Now, as a parent, did I dumb down my drawing? No, I just explained to her the why behind it. “You’re going to get there. And in fact, practice is going to make you better. And if you just chuck the colored pencil across the room, that doesn’t get us better, right? Maybe it feels good in the moment, but I do see that you’re frustrated.”

 

Kristina  05:12

So what can we do when we feel frustrated? That’s again, this teaching of how do you cope? How do you move through that? So it’s determining, as a parent, who your child is, and is it the “we expect your best,” or is it the “we expect a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable effort,” because you have the child who whose paper is never done, because they can always edit and rewrite it one more time to make it better.

 

Heather  05:44

In our home, we interpreted that to be that we don’t demand perfection. We expect your best effort, and if that’s what’s produced from your best effort, that’s good enough. Doesn’t have to be perfect. Doesn’t have to be what you saw in your mind. But if you gave your best effort, not asking you to do it seventeen times. We asked for a best effort. What they do with it in the midst of it is the coachable stuff, yes.

 

Kristina  06:11

So really, again, you’re on that quest of determining and growing in the knowledge of who your child is and how to hold that expectation in an appropriate place where they have the skills to meet the expectation. Each child develops at their own pace, right? So it’s not helpful to say to a child, “Oh, any twelve year old can do that. I mean, for crying out loud, you’re twelve.” That helps no one. That brings shame. It’s not taking a look to see does this child have the skills to meet this expectation?

 

Heather  06:47

It erodes their self esteem and confidence in themselves. It becomes their inner voice.

 

Kristina  06:52

And now all of a sudden, you’re not their safe caregiver that they’re attached to. It’s somebody who’s actually on the other side of the table, right? You’re not good enough. You do not measure up. There’s something wrong. 

 

Heather  07:05

With an adversary versus ally relationship, we always want to be their ally, right?

 

Kristina  07:09

And when we’re not, we need to do everything we can to get back to that side of the table. Same team. And own what we’ve done that took us to the other side, right? I apologize a lot to my daughter. And because she is gracious and loving, she will often say, “Mommy, it’s okay, it’s okay, it’s fine.” And she, even as a pre -teen and young teenager, said things like, “Oh, Mommy, you were tired. You were frustrated.” I love the empathy. The Empathy is beautiful. She’s very empathetic. But it doesn’t mean then, if I’ve behaved poorly, that that’s just okay, right? So, using those same skills that we were talking about in helping our child express “I didn’t like it when you…”, I can say “I didn’t like it when I spoke this way to you.  It didn’t feel good to me. I imagine it didn’t feel good to you. How can I make that better? Next time I will” and modeling the same thing we’re asking our children to do in their interactions with others. And that we ask them to do that.

 

Heather  08:14

Yeah, right. When they speak poorly to us, we’re going to go through that same process with them and walk them through that. As our kids grew, one of our primary rules, because we had three of them, was if you asked Mom or Dad anything, a request “Could so and so, come over?” and you didn’t get the answer you wanted, you could not then go ask the other parent. That was a big one for us. And that was a real hard boundary that we set. And if they crossed that boundary and did that and went to the other parent, it was like mandatory family meeting. Butts in seats. We’re gonna talk this through.

 

Kristina  09:00

They are not going to play us against each other.

 

Heather  09:03

No, and that goes back to your foundations again. Of this needs to be a place where we can trust each other that’s built in honesty. And our rule is, if you ask mom and she doesn’t give you the answer, you don’t get to run on over to dad and try again. Nope.

 

Kristina  09:23

And I mean, they ask us questions a thousand times a day, right? So it’s not always reasonable to be able to say, “Let me ask whomever my wife, let me ask my partner. Let me ask somebody else about that before I give the answer.” Because oftentimes, as parents, we don’t have the whole story, right? It’ll be like, oh, here come, you know, Vince and Grace trucking into the kitchen, and they’re headed out to get donuts in the morning. And there was actually a task that I had given earth that needed to be completed before she could do those things. But he didn’t know that, and she thought, I have struggled here. That’s right, we’re going for a donut to Donutville.  Like, it doesn’t get better than that right? So it’s also when you can check in or saying, you know, Vince, saying, “Oh, I didn’t realize you had to get that done first. First, complete the task, then we can go for donuts.” 

 

Heather  10:13

And it’s also, like, it just gets busy. I’m in the house. I’m doing things. It’s a Saturday. There are kids ramming around everywhere. He’s in the garage or doing lawn work. He’s outside, doing stuff out there. The kids want to have more kids over, and maybe I’m at my brink, and I don’t want that, but my husband doesn’t realize that. So the kids are like, “Ooh, Dad’s outside. He’ll monitor us. I’ll ask him instead. Mom said ‘no,’ but I’ll go ask him.” Nope. Not how it works, and they needed to be taught like that does erode our relationship. That is not what we want. We want to have a good marriage. We want to always be your parents. We want to be a family forever. And that puts a crack in our foundation. 

 

Kristina  10:57

That behavior right there? You asked. I answered. It is done. Yep,

 

Heather  11:01

Yep. Exactly. Another thing – and this goes back to how old is the child? Is it a reasonable ask? And for how long when you’re in a conversation, maybe after a soccer game or a ball game or whatever, and the adults are gathering and we’re in a conversation, and the child comes up and wants to interrupt. Interrupting was one of those things that I wanted to teach my children not to do. I wanted them to wait and then move in appropriately when the time was correct. But if you’re in a group of people, it can be really hard for them. So our rule was, when they were little, if they just came up and they put their hand on my leg or my arm that signaled that they had something that they needed to say to me, and what I would do in that moment is turn to them, acknowledge them, and give them the one minute, like just one minute, hold up one finger.

 

Kristina  11:53

And that needs to be a minute, not, well, that’s sometimes referred to as a “mother’s minute,” which can be twenty minutes long.

 

Heather  11:59

Because that’s an unreasonable expectation. And it erodes their trust in you. Because if you tell them “one minute,” then at the very least you need to say just “one second, folks. Here, you’ve been very patient. Thank you for waiting so well. What can I help you with?” and acknowledge that, and then who knows what it might be? “Okay, I hear you. We’re gonna let me finish up here. I’ll be five minutes, and then we’ll dot, dot, dot…” whatever it might be. But you need to at least acknowledge and like you said, it can’t be twenty minutes. Because no four year old in the history of the world can wait twenty minutes without interrupting. They just can’t do it. Probably even a six or eight year old can’t do that for twenty minutes. 

 

Kristina  12:51

For crying out loud, I can’t do that for twenty minutes. When there’s something I’m really needing to do or really, really wanting to do, it’s hard to be patient like that.

 

Heather  12:59

So let’s recap boundaries and expectations. We want to have clear rules and expectations that are rooted in our family values and what we want to teach

 

Kristina  13:13

Yes. We want there to be few but important, very intentional boundaries, fences that we have erected, they can’t be everywhere, but we need to choose them carefully based on those values, and then we need to say our expectations out loud. What do we expect? What happens if that boundary is breached? Correct?

 

Heather  13:38

We also need to have developmentally appropriate expectations, because our kids start real, real little with developing brains that have not a lot of skill and capacity. And then, as they grow, they gain more skill. Hopefully, because we’ve taught them and they gain more capacity, right?

 

Kristina  14:01

And that if a child is exhibiting maladaptive behavior, it is most often because we have set an expectation they are not able to meet. They do not have the skills to meet it. If it’s an expectation that they have previously been able to meet, then we move into being the detective of our home and searching for the “why this child not able to meet this expectation at this time, in this moment?” because there is a reason. If they could do it before, and they can’t do it now. And so it’s striking what we think as a parent, using a good sound judgment, is the perfect balance of challenging them enough and stretching them enough, but still allowing them to be successful. Yes. And building the skill. Every interaction in a day is an opportunity to either model or build skill. Now I’d be exhausted if I took every opportunity in the day to do those things, but there are plenty, and our children need us to model and teach them the skills to be able to manage life when they don’t get their way, when they’re met with frustration, when they’re disappointed, when they’re not sure how to communicate, when they don’t yet have the pause. 

 

Heather  15:25

And let’s talk about being firm and consistent, because we’re only as good as our reliability and our consistency. And that can trip us up, because it can be so tempting to move that fence for lots of different reasons, lots of reasons, but our consistency is really what matters here, because that’s what goes back to being clear. And we say ‘clear is kind.’ And clear really is kind when we can be consistent and our kids know exactly what to expect, it goes so much better.

 

Kristina  16:03

Yeah. And it’s important that if a child is kicking the fence right? We don’t let it go over. But it may give us pause to reflect on the boundary. It may be: it’s time for that boundary to move. I remember this with my daughter with bedtime. She had the same bedtime for a long time, and then she started kicking the fence right like “I want to stay up later. Everybody gets to stay up later. I’m not tired yet.” Kick, kick, kick, kick. And we held firm: “This is your bedtime. This is when you’re headed up. I can’t tell you when you’re going to fall asleep, but I can tell you when we’re headed up to bed.” So after she kicked the fence a number of times, it was time for her father and I to sit down and say, “Hmm, maybe it is time to move that fence.” And so then to be able to say to her, “We’ve decided that now at this age, this will be the new bedtime,” and that’s keeping it developmentally appropriate and not responding to the kick in the moment, but reflecting on the boundary.

 

Heather  17:01

That’s a really important distinguishing factor. What we say matters. How we say it. It also really matters our body language. I don’t remember the exact statistic, but what kids, especially young children, interpret first, is not our words, it’s how our face looks. It’s how our body is moving. They assess all of that.

 

Kristina  17:27

Children have been studying our faces their whole lives. That’s how they initially began to understand, am I safe? Am I not safe? Are my needs going to be met? Are they not before they ever have language.

 

Heather  17:41

Our faces and our reactions like impulse, action, reaction, right? So they know by looking at us if we’re angry, if we’re frustrated, there doesn’t have to be any words coming out, and they will know we have this with co-workers. We have this as adults with one another. It’s very true, but children have only had that to rely on with their primary caregivers since they were born, since they were born before they were verbal. So they are experts at knowing what gets us going, what makes us angry, what causes us to react, and so it’s really important when we’re holding those consistent boundaries, and when we are setting up and clearly communicating the rules and expectations that how we say things is so important to their interpretation of the what we just have to remain as parents, so aware of our facial expressions in our body language, because that is 90% of communication to kids. Am I foe, or am I friend?

 

Kristina  18:59

Am I ally? Am I adversary? Am I here to help, or am I here to punish? 

 

Heather  19:04

And we notice this so much in the setting that we work in, because we’re not primary caregivers, right? And so we have to very quickly move into what could be an escalated situation and bring the calm down and immediately have that child trust us, right? To be able to approach them. And what that looks like for us is getting real low, reall low, letting our face soften very, very much and be able to say to them, “I’m here to help” and pause if something has happened

 

Kristina  19:40

Right. In a low tone of voice, not in a “Hey, hey, hey, what’s happening here?” That doesn’t help the children want to be helped by you.

 

Heather  19:49

It doesn’t mean there aren’t times that we don’t have to raise our voice and say, “Stop your feet” because we don’t want them to go near the pond or whatever it might be. For safety reasons, we have to do those things too, but in those moments where we’re trying to communicate calm and get the child to quickly connect with us, all of that body language is so important, really important. And what we know is, with kids, it’s not just what we say, it’s how we say it. It’s not our words that mean more. It’s our actions. Those are all so important to kids. Also proposing alternatives and offering choices to kids when they can be really upset about something in the moment. And we’re holding a boundary, but if we can still, within that boundary, we’re going to the car. “Would you like to hold my hand? Or would you like to walk by my side?” “Would you like me to carry you? Would you like to hold my hand?” Yeah, choices state what’s happening, but then we offer a choice because it offers them an option to be in charge. 

 

Kristina  20:58

Goes back to what we were talking about in a previous episode where we talked about empathy, expectation, choice. “I know you’d really like to stay at the pool longer. We’ve had so much fun. It’s time to go. You may hold my hand, or you may carry the bag,” or whatever the choice is that I’m willing to offer as we go to the car.

 

Heather  21:20

I said that incorrectly, it offers them initiative is what it offers them, the opportunity to grow that skill of initiative, right? And to say what’s best for them. That’s another piece that I love, “What’s best for you you?” When you give a choice, that’s a powerful thing for kids to be like, “Oh, what is best for me?” It’s really good reflection thing for them. I like those words. I use them a lot at work, you give option A and you give option B. “What’s best for you?”

 

Kristina  21:52

Yeah, it’s another opportunity to have a little pause. 

 

Heather  21:56

The final thing, perhaps the most difficult: set a good example. As parents, we have to practice what we preach. 

 

Kristina  22:07

There’s a child that I worked with some time ago, and this is not unique to this particular child. This is something that we all experience. This child loved the color blue and always wanted the blue napkin when we were getting ready to have a meal or a snack. Well, the napkins were all different colors, but this child wanted the blue, always the blue. And I don’t know if you have done this, Heather. I have done this, and it was from years working at an elementary school where we would say, “You get what you get and you don’t throw a fit.” Yep, exactly. “You get what you get and you don’t throw a fit.” They do throw a fit. They do when they don’t get what they want. And we have a choice to either say, “Fine, I’m going to go find the blue napkin,” or I’m going to say to this other child, “Is it okay if I take that blue napkin and give it to the child who demands the blue napkin?” Or do I hold the boundary of you get what you get, and you don’t throw off it, and saying, “I know you got the orange napkin. You were really hoping for the blue napkin. Today you have the orange.” 

 

Heather  23:12

“Oh I hear you. Wow. You are really upset about that. Yeah, you really hoped for the blue napkin today you have the orange and I know you can do it.” I know you can do it, right? Rinse and repeat, empathy and then the reminder that you can do it: “You’ve got this.” And allowing them to move through that upset to the point where they can say, “Okay, well, I guess if I want a snack, I mean, I’m using the orange napkin.” But, boy, is it tempting to just be, like, “ I’m just gonna get that blue napkin, because the screaming needs to end.” 

 

Heather  23:50

It’s like when we’re in the store and there’s a screaming child and it’s ours, and they see all the food, and it’s like, I am just gonna open this box of granola bars and put it in your face, like, eat it. Just make the crying stop. And then I know I’m gonna go to the store the next time, and I am going to be punished forever with the one granola bar that I let them put in their face hole. 

 

Kristina  24:30

Yep, in that moment, yep, because we ought to draw that back. Not just the granola bar in the face hole. It’s also when we say “Here. Just have my phone. Yes, here. Just take my phone because I need you to stop the screaming.” We need to get this task completed, and that’s my solution. Phone for you, quiet for me. Yay. We can move through the rest of our shopping.

 

Heather  24:50

In that moment, you just think, “Oh,

 

Kristina  24:53

Thank you.”

 

Heather  24:56

And then later we’re like, “Oh,damn it.”

 

Kristina  24:57

Yes. I did that to myself.  I did that.

 

Heather  25:02

Yeah. In a weak moment. We all have them, we all do and it will happen, and we can draw it back. But it takes more work. The other thing that I want to talk about is following through with consequences is so important. Yeah, natural or logical? We know natural consequences are the better consequences. They’re the ones that just you didn’t wear your coat. No, you’re gonna get cold, right? You don’t want your mittens. Your hands are cold. And, I mean, those are no big deals. We navigate that all the time at school. It’s like, you just put your mittens on, then we’re not gonna get into these bitter battles over coats and mittens, because kids will very quickly learn, right? Oh, natural consequence. Now, my body’s cold, my hands are cold, whatever.

 

Kristina  25:52

So I was raised that we weren’t allowed to write on ourselves with marker or with pen or things like that. I think there was some belief that I had instilled in me that it was going to poison my blood, or something like, if I used pen to write on my hand. It was just something that was not acceptable in my family.

 

Heather  26:11

Growing up, we were always told ink was going to poison us, yeah.,

 

Kristina  26:15

Right.

 

Heather  26:16

It was an 80s thing. 

 

Kristina  26:18

Must have been 70s thing. I mean, it did. It started early. But that was kind of an ingrained belief I’d never challenged before. So my daughter started drawing on her hands and on her arms and on her legs, lots of creativity happening on her extremities. And I didn’t like it, so I said to her, “You are not allowed to write on your body with ink or with markers,” and I may have even said it’s not safe. I don’t know if maybe I cause I did not like that. And maybe somewhere deep in my brain, I actually thought it would harm her. So she wasn’t old enough to question that. She was maybe in second or third grade. And nope, she came home again and she had written all over herself. And I said, “Well, that’s it. You lose tech time.” She said to me, second or third grader, she says, “Mom, that doesn’t make any sense. Tech time has nothing to do with writing on my skin. How about you don’t let me use pens anymore. Yeah, that is more logical, isn’t it?”But the tech time is going to hurt more, and how can I possibly keep all of the pens away from my child? Yeah, it wasn’t a great consequence, and it was humbling to have my little one call me out on it.

 

Heather  27:47

Well, I think it’s an indicator that probably your consequences had been more solid up to that point.

 

Kristina  27:56

She’s like, “Those don’t even connect, Mom. Yeah, like up your game, woman.”

 

Heather  28:03

Then later, she’s like, “It’s okay, mom, your consequence sucked, but you were tired.”

 

Kristina  28:10

She is my child. Oozing empathy. Yep.

 

Heather  28:14

This is not easy. And this gets harder giving consequences. Yes, I think it gets harder when they get older, because I don’t know why. To be honest, I don’t know why. Maybe it’s just always hard for me. I think it was harder as my kids got older. Maybe it’s just what I remember best, but I distinctly remember that Zack was invited to go away with a friend for a weekend up north. He is an avid outdoorsman. He loves to hunt, fish, ride ATVs, all of it. And he was taking his quad. They were taking other machines, and they were going to go for this weekend. A family that we really love and spent a lot of time with and had their son over as well frequently, and I don’t even remember. This is the thing. I don’t even remember what he did. I have no// do you have any records?

 

Kristina  29:11

I know I don’t.

 

Heather  29:12

All I know was that we had a conversation, and whatever he had done, the consequence was he couldn’t go, I’m guessing, knowing who Zack is, and his disdain for school and all things school work related, was that he probably didn’t finish something by a deadline, and that was just a requirement. I’m not asking you to love it, but, kid, we have got to get you through school. And you have to do some level of work. Yes, we expect your best, a good effort. I don’t think we always got his best, because we didn’t demand A’s. Like, if he got a C, I was like, winning, and that was fine. And so I think it’s probably he didn’t meet a deadline.

 

Kristina  30:04

And you had stated the consequence. 

 

Heather  30:07

It had been voiced previously, because I wouldn’t have gone to that unless I had previously stated it. So he made the choice to not do whatever it was, or to do whatever he wasn’t supposed to I’m not sure, because I don’t remember the exact scenario. All that I remember is sitting with him on his bed and saying, “You know that we cannot allow you to go. And he was like “Mom, but-“ and there was this upset. And I said, “I know. I know, honey. This is not easy for me. Do you think that I want to see you hurt and suffer and be miserable because you can’t do this?” No. “Yeah. So no, I do feel awful. I wanted you to go, right? You would love that. Of course, I want you to go and experience that and have all of that fun. I didn’t do this to you. Who did this to you?” I did. And those are the hard truths that we have to help them process through well, and “I did not do this to you, son.” Yes. “Who did this to you?” I did.

 

Kristina  31:25

I remember you calling me in the midst of that situation. 

 

Heather  31:30

Well, it was over. I had done it, and he knew he wasn’t going and he took it. This is some of the power in it. He took it so beautifully. It almost made me feel guilty. Yes, because he was able to say,” I did do this.” Yep, of course, you have to enforce it. And I think we talked about this is a consequence of your actions. You don’t get to be around here this weekend and be pissy and moody and unkind and angry to the people in this house and mope around. And he was like, “I will not” and you’re gonna get whatever it was done and you’re gonna do it, yeah, because it’s the right thing to do.” I know. And he just took it so beautifully that I was like, “Oh, he’s such a good kid. Should I let him go?

 

Kristina  32:27

No. No, you called me just like that, saying, “But he’s, he’s taken responsibility for it. He’s owned it. I mean, it really would be so great if he could go up north. He was really looking forward to it. It’s a great opportunity.” 

 

Heather  32:39

And I remember saying, “He’s gonna have so much fun, and I know I can’t let him go. And you were like, “You can’t let him go.” And I was like, I know, just need to say it again.

 

Kristina  32:48

This is one of those times when you need to be able to call somebody in your village who can say, “I stand with you in holding this boundary. You’re doing the right thing.”

 

Heather  32:56

You’re doing the right thing is not easy. Nope. But it’s the lesson they need to learn. But I am here supporting you as you hold that boundary that kid is better off today as a twenty year old, because we did that work back then, right? Not easy. More responsible. A better problem solver. Better at getting his crap done

 

Kristina  33:21

All of it. And better at owning his own choices, right? “I’m not gonna blame you because of something that I chose.”

 

Heather  33:29

And he didn’t put himself in a victim place, which I think as a parent, was what I celebrated so much. Make himself a victim. He owned it, which I was like, yes, but then I almost was willing to undo it all right? And I needed to call and say, we can’t. I can’t. Nope, you can’t. Don’t let me. Don’t let me. Nope.

 

Kristina  33:54

That is a trap we fall into easily.

 

Heather  34:00

This is middle school. Real life.

 

Kristina  34:03

Holy crap. And if you have a child like mine, it was before middle school, during middle school and after middle school, because she’s always thinking about what’s ahead, very unaware of what’s in her present or what’s in her past. And so she forgets things a lot. 

 

Heather  34:19

And my oldest also attention and focus just took longer to grow and develop. And he needed all of those very real life experiences we always said “He’s gonna have to try it and feel the consequence of it before he gets it,” because it’s just how he learned. So going off to middle school was a real trick for him. It just requires more stuff, more independence, but also your water bottle, you have to have all of your different classes organized. He was not great at organizing that stuff. It was like, oh, the paper for history could be in the English folder, and the paper for math could be in the history folder. And undoubtedly, there were seventeen of them crumpled at the bottom underneath the folders. And where is my calculator, and where is this and where is that? And so I had to have the saying that we just lived into and became kind of our mantra as all of our kids moved through this phase, and that saying was “your lack of planning does not cause an emergency on my part.” That maybe sounds cruel. Oh, it’s the cold hard truth, though. It is the cold hard truth, and it’s the mantra that I needed in my head for my own reminder, because I would have been running here, there and everywhere to get this kid what he needed.

 

Kristina  36:04

But it happens for so many of us, right? Our child has invested time and energy and their soul into a project. Maybe it’s a poster they had to make, or maybe it’s something that they need for a presentation, or it could be anything the science fair when they’ve invested and worked on something and then they forget it.

 

Heather  36:30

Yes. And here’s the thing that I want everybody to think about: if this is your child, you must let them develop the skills to get themselves out of these situations, because it is who they are. And my son had to do that, and he is wildly charming. Something I say in my house a lot is, don’t you dare use your smolder on your mother. Smolders don’t work on mothers. No, they don’t. I grew you in my body, your smolder is rendered ineffective. But you know what? It’s very common for children with dyslexia and ADHD, they develop wicked good people skills because they have to, right? Because they do so many of those types of just “I don’t have this” or “I’m not prepared for this” up that they have to get charming, they have to be witty, they have to be likable, or they would not make it through school. And that was my son.

 

Kristina  37:35

So my recommendation for parents, because so many of us experience this is the first time your child forgets their whatever science project, water bottle, headphones, lunch, money, whatever it might be that the first time, if at all possible, you bring the item to them. And that is then when you establish the boundary of “you need to have what you need to have to leave the house in the morning. I will not be making runs to bring you things.” Now, establishing the boundary is not enough. You also have to work with your child to come up with a system that is going to help them until they build the skill to remember those things on their own. What is the double-checking system that you have everything you need before you leave the door? Is it a list that we make the night before and we tape to the door, nice little visual that we check it off before we leave? Do we have a little dry erase board? We used lots of dry erase boards with Grace growing up, and still do to some extent. There’s a little dry erase board that’s right by the door that we will be heading out of, and it lists the things we need so like at our preschools, before we leave our playscapes with the children to go on a hike, we have a hike checklist where we say, Does every teacher have their walkie talkie? Yes. Check, do we have the first aid kit? Check. Do I have my backpack as the teacher? Check. So you have that checklist before you leave the home of the items that you need. And each day, especially in the beginning, you do that checklist with your child, if that’s what’s going to work for them. It could also be that you prepare those items with your child that need to go with you in an area. They’re all here. We’re not searching for them in the morning. We don’t have to remember that. Today’s the day I need to bring my gym shoes, because we already have your gym shoes sitting by your things to leave.

 

Heather  39:50

So really, it’s about having processes in place that work for you and your child and your family, and it’s about not rescuing them. Yeah. Every time and allowing them to develop their problem-solving skills. I used to say to my kids, “You get one time,” preventatively, like, “I’ll bring something to school one time. You get to decide what it is. If it’s that homework that’s due, if it’s that permission slip, if it’s your lunch, whatever, but you better choose carefully what that one thing is, because I’m going to do it one time.”

 

Kristina  40:22

You can bet that the homework that they didn’t bring in is not what they’re going to know one time.

 

Heather  40:27

It was somebody’s homework, and I forget what the consequence was if that didn’t get turned in, but there was a domino effect, and so they used it wisely. But I never got called for lunches. I never got I guess they can survive without food and water, or they charmed somebody for some others, but I did get called once for homework,

 

Kristina  40:47

And if your child continues to call home because they continue to forget things, it just means that you need to come up with a different system, that whatever the system you came up with is not sufficient. It’s not working. And doing that work with the child even better.

 

Heather  41:04

And apparently this happens a lot. I remember emails, and I remember the one time I brought that stuff in, there was like a drop off zone for, like, lunches and water bottles. And I’m thinking, “Oh, I might be a cold hearted human.”

 

Kristina  41:23

Yeah so you saw that this is happening on the regular for all of us, that our children are forgetting things, and that too often we feel that we need to rescue them. What will they do if they don’t have their lunch?

 

Heather  41:36

What will they do? Come home hungry? Not the worst thing. Eat a better dinner.

 

Kristina  41:43

Yeah, not the worst thing, no.

 

Heather  41:44

And that’s kind of I’ve been this parent who annoyingly will sometimes say, “What’s the worst that could happen?” What’s the worst that could happen? Because we have to check ourselves on that. If they don’t have their lunch, what’s the worst that could happen? They come home hungry. They come home a little dehydrated. If they don’t have their water, well, there are  drinking fountains there.

 

Kristina  42:08

I mean, yep. Get yourself a drink if you are thirsty. But maybe you won’t forget it tomorrow. Or maybe if remembering things is a challenge for you, we’ll come up with a difference.

 

Heather  42:20

Certainly if we don’t stretch them to do better, they won’t. And that’s the piece of the scaffolded skill building we want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. And I knew that if I rescued it wasn’t going to end well for my son, and that he had to be able to get to a point where he could figure it out, and then he got to be such a good problem solver.

 

Kristina  42:53

Paying attention to your own child’s skill development. What’s the trajectory? What’s the timeline? Grace, when she was in fifth grade, her teaching team just decided they were going to have these milk crates located outside the Spanish room, where if they found any of Grace’s things, they just put them in the milk crates, and then it was Grace’s responsibility to take them from the milk crates and get them either to her locker or get them home, because at that point, she did not yet have the ability to keep track of all of the things. Well, I can tell you, we don’t have milk crates anymore. She’s able to keep track of her things at school. She has built those skills. But at the time when you think, Oh for crying out loud, a fourth grader, never gonna get there. We’re never going to get there. And a fifth grader should be able to hang on to these things to say, “No, Grace isn’t able to do that yet. We’re growing her ability to do it, but she can’t do it yet, and that’s okay.” 

 

Heather  43:57

Yeah, it is okay. And it’s part of the growing. So setting boundaries for our children is one of the most important aspects of parenting. So much goes into it and so much comes out of it.

 

Kristina  44:14

It’s really setting them up for success as they experience the ability to meet expectations to manage the disappointment and the frustration when they don’t. Knowing their limits and having that be predictable sets them up to feel safe and secure.

 

Heather  44:33

And to be able to go on and manage in the real world alongside of others.

 

Kristina  44:42

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

 

Heather  44:48

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until

 

Kristina  44:53

Until next time 

 

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

 

Kristina

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  45:10

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan. 

 

Kristina  45:18

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects. 

 

Heather  45:30

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 7: Boundaries and Expectations, Part 1 of 2

Clinical social workers and moms Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of setting clear boundaries with children to promote their success and family well-being. 

They emphasize that boundaries should be consistent and not overly rigid, as this helps children understand acceptable behaviors and values. 

They also highlight the need for parents to communicate expectations clearly and consistently, as our kids are not mind-readers. 

The conversation also covers handling sibling conflicts, teaching children to respect boundaries, and the significance of emotional safety. 

They stress that boundaries should evolve as children grow, focusing on teaching values and nurturing their development.

Setting the Stage for Boundaries and Expectations

  • Kristina explains the focus on setting up boundaries and expectations to promote children’s success and family well-being.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of consistently enforcing boundaries without being overly rigid or confusing.
  • They emphasize that boundaries are not just restrictions but tools for teaching skills and reinforcing values.

 

The Importance of Clear Boundaries

  • Heather discusses the significance of clear boundaries in teaching children acceptable behaviors and reinforcing family values.
  • They discuss how boundaries are essential for teaching children what is acceptable and not acceptable in various settings, such as the grocery store, restaurant, and church.
  • Heather encourages the understanding that boundaries are a vehicle for teaching children values and foundations, rather than a means of achieving obedience.
  • Kristina and Heather agree that clear expectations and boundaries are crucial for children’s success and the overall joy of parenting.

 

Challenges of Setting and Enforcing Boundaries

  • Kristina shares her personal struggle with setting boundaries, often giving in to her child’s requests for “just one more.”
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of maintaining boundaries consistently to avoid confusion for children.
  • They highlight that children will challenge boundaries as part of their developmental process, seeking more autonomy and independence.
  • Kristina emphasizes that parents need to decide where to set boundaries and how to maintain them, ensuring that boundaries do not become punishments.

 

Consistency and Repetition in Enforcing Boundaries

  • Heather explains that children need to see boundaries held consistently to understand that they do not move.
  • Kristina shares an example of her own inconsistency in enforcing tech time boundaries, leading to confusion for her child.
  • The hosts discuss the importance of setting boundaries ahead of time to avoid responding to children’s requests in the moment.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that clear, consistent boundaries help children learn and feel safe, leading to more cooperative behavior.

 

Teaching Children to Respect Boundaries

  • Heather shares an example of setting a boundary at a water slide to prevent her child from being sucked into the vortex.
  • The hosts discuss the importance of teaching children to respect boundaries through repetition and practice.
  • Kristina emphasizes that boundaries should not be moved in response to children’s requests, as this sends a confusing message.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that clear, consistent boundaries help children learn to respect and follow rules.

 

Handling Sibling Conflicts and Emotional Safety

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how to handle conflicts between siblings, emphasizing the importance of emotional safety.
  • The hosts share an example of a conflict between their daughters, where Heather intentionally turned her back to the perpetrator to avoid giving attention to negative behavior.
  • Kristina explains the importance of focusing on the victim and teaching the perpetrator appropriate behavior.
  • The hosts emphasize that boundaries should protect children from physical harm, property damage, and emotional harm caused by other children.

 

Teaching Children to Communicate Their Needs

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of teaching children to communicate their needs and desires appropriately.
  • The hosts share examples of how to teach children to ask for what they want instead of taking it or throwing tantrums.
  • Kristina emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries that are developmentally appropriate and teach children valuable skills.
  • Heather and Kristina agree that clear, consistent boundaries help children learn to communicate effectively and respect others.

 

Adapting Boundaries as Children Grow

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how boundaries need to adapt as children grow and become more capable.
  • The hosts emphasize that boundaries should teach children values and help them grow into responsible individuals.
  • Heather explains that boundaries are a way for parents to nurture their children and help them become the people they want to see them be.
    • Kristina and Heather agree that clear, consistent boundaries are essential for raising happy, healthy children.

 

Key Takeaways:

  •       We want to establish clear boundaries and expectations with children proactively, not just in response to their behavior.
  •       We want to consistently enforce boundaries without being overly rigid or confusing.
  •       We want to teach children skills to respond appropriately when they feel frustrated, like asking for something instead of taking it.
  •       When a child breaks a boundary, we want to respond with empathy, teach the appropriate behavior, and give them a chance to try again.
  •       We want to help children develop a “pause” before reacting impulsively, by asking “What’s your plan?”

 

Some tips to create clear and consistent boundaries and expectations for children:

  •       Establish boundaries and expectations proactively, not just reactively. Discuss them with children ahead of time so they understand the rules.
  •       Use clear, specific language when communicating boundaries. Avoid vague terms like “be good” or “don’t misbehave.” Instead, say things like “hands on your knees”, “feet stay on the ground”, “whispers only” or “match my voice.”
  •       Enforce boundaries consistently every time, without exceptions. If you allow exceptions, it can confuse and undermine the boundary.
  •       Involve children in setting some boundaries and expectations. Give them age-appropriate choices within the limits you set.
  •       Post visual reminders of key rules and expectations around the house so everyone can reference them.
  •       Be a model of the behavior you expect. Children are more likely to follow rules if they see their parents following them too.
  •       Use natural consequences when boundaries are crossed, rather than punishments. This helps children learn from their mistakes.

 

  The key is being proactive, specific, and consistent. This sets your children up for success in meeting your family’s expectations.

Episode 7: Boundaries and Expectations, Part 1 of 2

 

Heather  00:00

This episode is the start of a two part series on boundaries and expectations.

 

Kristina  00:05

We’ll discuss how we proactively set up boundaries and expectations with our children in a way that promotes their success and our family’s overall wellbeing.

 

Heather  00:15

We talk about how to consistently enforce boundaries with our children without being overly rigid or confusing.

 

Kristina  00:22

We’ll also discuss strategies we can use to help our children develop the skills to respond appropriately when they feel frustrated, like when they want something that belongs to another person or a sibling.

 

Heather  00:33

We like to say boundaries are not just fences we put up, but they are also great tools for teaching skills and reinforcing our values and our kids. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

 

Kristina  00:49

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma,

 

Heather  01:02

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good, long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  01:24

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  01:30

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  01:31

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  01:37

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  01:50

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature -based initiatives.

 

Heather  01:57

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org, to learn more about the ODC Networks’, mission and impact. So today, we’re going to be talking about boundaries and expectations, why they’re important, how they can be tricky, because they are tricky. I think for a lot of people, some of us hold really tight boundaries. Some of us struggle to set boundaries and keep them real loose, and then that’s confusing, especially to children. So we’re going to talk about what makes a really good boundary. Why good clear boundaries are important, and what they allow in our family. Boundaries allow us as parents to teach our children what we believe are acceptable behaviors in our homes in other settings where we take our children. For me, it was the grocery store. It might have been a restaurant. It was at church. All of those different places that we go as a family, we have the opportunity as parents to teach our children what we deem acceptable and not acceptable, and really, I think we as parents sometimes don’t connect, or don’t realize or know that boundaries are a vehicle for us to teach our children our values and our foundations, and I think as parents, sometimes we just don’t realize that maybe it’s that we’re focusing too much on a rule, or maybe it’s that we’re focusing like we talked about before, on obedience, yeah, and we don’t realize that so much of discipline is just how we live with our children in our homes on the daily, and that boundaries are one of those vehicles, a really, really good and powerful one to teach our children our values through what is acceptable, what is not acceptable, what is going to elicit a consequence. All of those things are really important, and they’re really important for our children to have a clear understanding of and they impact who they become. It impacts what we allow in our families, how we teach respect, care, compassion for one another, is going to impact how our children launch into the world and then respect others, treat others, care for others, show compassion for others. And that’s the piece that I think sometimes we don’t realize, as parents, we have that influence.

 

Kristina  04:45

Oh, absolutely. I think that we can be lulled into the sense of we can just roll with the punches and see where the day takes us. And some of us have temperaments that lend themselves more. To that type of parenting

 

Heather  05:01

Exactly. Some of us hold those boundaries real tight because we are firmly rooted in tradition or in stewardship or are more duty bound. And then there are other temperaments that just feel boundaries to be confining, yeah, and they suck the creativity out of life, or they suck some of the joy out of life. And so that gets really tricky, and we have to know who we are as a parent, and it goes back to also knowing who your child is as a child.

 

Kristina  05:37

So one of the reasons that we are so passionate about talking about boundaries and expectations and having them be clear out-loud expectations we cannot expect another human being to meet an expectation or to remain within a boundary when they don’t know what it is. So one of the reasons it’s so important to us to talk about it is because once you have established expectations and boundaries and they’re out loud, it makes the journey so much more smooth. It allows children to be successful because they know what the expectations are, and parenting becomes more joyful.

 

Heather  06:21

It absolutely does. And I remember a way long time ago, I think this was even before I had children, because sometimes we think they just know what we expect without us saying it, and they don’t. Sometimes I used to think that my spouse should know, that they should be able to know because they know me deeply. And someone said to me, “Well, they can’t read your mind. It’s not really fair to expect a certain outcome when you’re not sharing what you need.” And I was like, “I’m a therapist”  I was like, “Oh, I guess that isn’t really great practice.”

 

Kristina  07:00

I remember my mother telling my sister when she was first married, ‘Honey, tell him what you need, and then act like he came up with it all on his own. That’s like the secret of success in a marriage.” 

 

Heather  07:13

It’s the secret sauce, right there, folks. You heard it here. 

 

Kristina  07:17

They can’t know if we don’t tell them.

 

Heather  07:19

Absolutely. And it’s not fair to have an expectation not share what it is, and then get really resentful. And sometimes we do those things with our spouses, with our children. So clear expectations and boundaries are super important so people can be successful. And we say this all the time a child who is not good at succeeding can get really tempted to get good at failing, and we never want that. We don’t want that for our children, for ourselves, for our spouse. We want everybody to feel successful because it brings joy to our home. 

 

Kristina  08:00

Boundaries can be really tricky for parents. They can be tricky to establish. They can be tricky to enforce. I know, just because of who I am, that I’m much more prone to say that, “Oh, just one more time” after I’ve set a boundary. Like “We’re going to leave the pool at two o’clock. You have five more minutes. You may do one more thing in the pool.” And so there’s one more awesome slide down the slide, and a big splash, and then it would be time to go. But Grace would say, “Just one more. Just one more.” And I’m prone to say, “Oh, sure.  Just one more time.”

 

Heather  08:34

We’re having so much fun. Just one beautiful day. We need to soak this in. Just do it one more time, right?

 

Kristina  08:41

But you can bet after that one more time, there will be the request for one more time, one more time, one more time, and then I can get frustrated with something I have set up on my very own, right? I said: here’s the boundary we’re going to be leaving at this time, and then I just blew the boundary right over, right? Sure, one more time. May I have a cookie? Yeah. May I have another one? Sure. I mean, they’re really good, aren’t they? To me, it felt happy to be doing those things like, yeah, we can do this one more time. Sure, we can do that. And what I was inadvertently doing is blowing my boundaries, which we talk about being fences that we establish for safety. We establish those fences for teaching skills, like you had mentioned, teaching manners.

 

Heather  09:33

Well it marks the territory. It marks the area, and it marks the line at which point you’ve crossed the boundary. 

 

Kristina  09:43

And if we allow our fences to be erected haphazardly, we just kind of do it on the fly, and the children don’t know where that fence is, they will run into it, and then we have a choice about how we’re going to respond to the child who runs into the fence.

 

Heather  10:02

And we have to understand that children are going to challenge the fence. Yes, really, their developmental job, right? They’re seeking more autonomy as they grow. They’re trying to become independent, and in doing so, they’re going to try to climb the fence. They’re going to kick it. They’re going to shake it, some more than others, again, because there are some children that are just more compliant naturally, by nature, by temperament, and then there are others that also by nature and temperament, are the ones that are going to throw stones at that fence. They’re gonna shake it vigorously and they’re gonna kick it and try to make it go over.

 

Kristina  10:47

So we as the adults get to decide where we are going to establish the fences and then how we are going to maintain them. The fence does not attack a child or taunt a child, like, “Ooh, you’re getting really close to the fence. Don’t touch the fence. Don’t touch the fence. Don’t touch the fence.” Then, wham, you touch the fence. 

 

Heather  11:13

We don’t allow our boundary or our fence to become a punishment. So as that child gets near, it doesn’t whack the child, right? It’s just there, right being the boundary marking the line.

 

Kristina  11:24

But my behavior at the pool, where I had erected a fence right? Here’s the boundary for our time here. And then I knocked the fence over. I said, we don’t really need to pay attention to that boundary. You can do it one more time. So when I zoom out and say, “What was I teaching? Was I trying to be a fun mom? Did I maybe think I had erected a fence that wasn’t reasonable, or was I just acquiescing because I like to bring the joy, as opposed to holding the boundary?” That was something that I really needed to learn, because I wasn’t setting my daughter up for success when I would move the fence.

 

Heather  12:08

Yes, because it’s confusing. And there are times we’ll do it because we make a choice to move the fence. Perhaps maybe it is spontaneity. Maybe it is everybody’s having a better time. Who knows? It could be lots of reasons. But what we need to understand is, when we move the fence or we move the boundary, it is confusing to the child and the child’s brain, because what we have taught them is the boundary moves. And then we have to go back and teach harder that the boundary actually doesn’t move, and the only way that their brain registers that message is through rote repetition and practice. The boundary has to hold. The boundary has to hold a significant amount of times, and finally, the child’s brain will say, “Ah, I’m not gonna get one more time to go down the slide at the pool,” or “I’m not gonna get another cookie,” because we’ve held that boundary enough that their brain registers it and now knows. But if we’re wishy washy, it’s so confusing to the child and their brain, and then they just challenge more, because they know that they can keep at it and that boundary will eventually move.

 

Kristina  13:35

So this is a tricky thing. It’s a very tricky thing, and I want us to talk about, how can we get better at this.

 

Heather  13:44

And why it’s so important to get better as parents. What we always say is that feelings of safety and security are paramount for children. They need them to learn. They need them to be able to feel connected to us. And what we know is when they feel safe and secure, it more likely ignites cooperation. So sometimes, as parents, we can think, if we have a lot of boundaries, that we’re not respecting our child’s feelings. Do you think that’s true?

 

Kristina  14:25

I don’t know that I think that’s true. I think that sometimes we erect so many boundaries that the child just has fences everywhere. And deciding where we are going to build a fence and hold a boundary and where they have more room to roam and experiment is important to not have too many. 

 

Heather  14:49

I think we talk a lot about offering choices, and parents can hear that, and then think everything needs to become a choice, right? It doesn’t. It’s okay to hold fast to certain things. I’m going to go back to our dinner time. You had to ask to be excused. You had to carry your plate to the counter or sink. I think about the pool. When my kids were little, we would go to the same pool. And do you remember that the water slide? There was a point. Do you remember this like it was a zero grade, and they could go in. But there was a point that we would always mark on the concrete, because the swirl of that water slide would suck the little ones in a puddle jumper. Do you remember that? Yes, and I distinctly remember, with both of my younger children marking that line in the concrete and saying, “Here. You may come up to here. You may not go beyond here, because you will get sucked in to that swirl. The force is gonna suck you into that, and then you’re gonna end up at the bottom of that water slide, and the lifeguard is gonna whoop blow their whistle and get you out of there and be mad at me.” But the kids want to be independent. And we wanted to sit somewhat and not always be monitoring when they’re getting sucked into the vortex of the water slide. And I distinctly remember with Luke, having to be eyes on him all the time because he’d look at me and be like, does she see me? Is she watching me? And having to kind of silently without words, just look at him and like, point at that line, like, right there, and he would dance on it. And sometimes he would fly right past that point with a big old smile on his face, like, “Here I go!” I imagine it was kind of fun to get sucked into that he didn’t need to move his body at all, and just the force took him, and I remember like, “Nope.” And then pulling him out and setting him down and being like, you gotta sit out for this amount of time, because that’s the boundary.

 

Kristina  16:50

And you had said it out loud, “If you move beyond this boundary, you will sit out for a period of time. 

 

Heather  16:57

And I remember one time in particular, because remember every hour there was like a five minute break or something, because they didn’t want everybody peeing in the pool. Everybody had to get out and pee, so they had this five minute break. And he ended up having to be out of the pool because he had to take that time that I had set. But then it was also the five minute break. And he was like, “I lost a really big amount of time in the pool.” And I was like, “You did. You did.” And so to have that conversation of, yeah, that was the consequence. Like, you lost swim time because you made the choice to go beyond and it didn’t take very long of that repetition of doing that. I remember the lifeguard kind of watching it, and they’re like teenagers and thinking, “Whew! I think that gigs a lot of work.” It’s probably a really good lesson for that teenage lifeguard. Watching it like that is a game for people with a lot of energy and stamina, and it is, yeah, because it took a lot to monitor him, not going beyond that point.

 

Kristina  18:02

I want to point out something about what you just shared, and that is that when Luke made the decision to go beyond the boundary and he had to sit out, you did not say “I told you. You chose to go beyond the boundary. So here you sit. Isn’t that fun, Luke? Maybe you should have listened to me and stayed within the boundary, right?” The fence doesn’t come and attack or taunt. 

 

Heather  18:30

It just holds and it doesn’t question their character. We’re trying to grow and develop it, right?

 

Kristina  18:35

The beauty of it is that it’s not me against you. It’s not parent against child or caregiver against the one that they are raising. It is both of us saying, “Oh, bummer. It is a bummer, Luke. You did miss a lot of time. Nuts. I’m so sorry that was kind of rotten.

 

Heather  18:56

In some ways, he would do it, looking right at me. Like, “Yep, here she comes.” It was like he was also testing me, right? Like, is she gonna make me do this? Because if not, I’m just gonna keep on going.

 

Kristina  19:11

But it’s so easy. You’ve talked about how your kids need to clear their plate, bring it into the kitchen. How easy is it if one of them forgets to do that, runs off to play, and you just think to yourself, I’ll just take it. I mean, it’s no big deal. I’ll take his plate this time. And there are times when we can do that, and there are times that we do that, but we need to understand then what happens. So if you do it, then the child learns it’s not really important.

 

Heather  19:42

It’s not really that important. Maybe I don’t have to take my –  there’s not really that committed to it, right?

 

Kristina  19:46

As opposed to taking the extra work of saying, “Hey, Grace? Come on back. You forgot your plate.”

 

Heather  19:52

You maybe don’t remember this. But one thing that we commonly said was, “First things first.” Yep. “Hey, first things first. Come and take a look at what needs to be done before you head out the door.” Oh, yep, yeah, I gotta get my plate.

 

Kristina  20:06

Yep. And in that way, when we hold a boundary, when we keep it consistent, when we are on the same side as our child with empathy and with understanding, and they experience that repeatedly, they begin to learn, yes, it doesn’t do me any good to kick that fence. It’s not moving. One of the easiest ways to extinguish a behavior is to respond to it absolutely consistently. The fastest way to ingrain a behavior is to respond to it inconsistently. Because if a child knows if I come into my parents bedroom or my mom’s bedroom or my dad’s bedroom in the night, and I want to sleep with them, if sometimes they’ll say yes, then I know that I can come in for another thousand days, and at some point they’re going to say yes again. I don’t know when, but I know it happened once, so it can happen again. So when we do move our fences intentionally, speaking of nighttime, this was one for my daughter that we had to figure out. I’ve said before, my husband traveled a lot with work, so when he was out of town, my daughter, who struggles with being anxious, she could sleep with me. Now some people are going to say, “Oh, boy, that is trouble.” For us, it worked. And it was something I could say out loud “When daddy’s gone, you may sleep with me in our bed.” And so on those nights, it wasn’t that I was responding to her request in the moment, that was pushing a boundary or kicking a fence. I could proactively say, “Here’s a new fence.” That’s important. So I’m going to go back to the pool. We were members at the same fitness club, which had an outdoor pool. At the outdoor pool, it also had a little concession stand. So one of our, one of my, you know, boundaries, was that we didn’t buy food from the concession stand, because I knew we would be buying food every day for the rest of forever when we went to the pool, so we were not going to do it. So every time Grace asked, “Can we please do it? Can we please, please, please, please, please, please, just this one. Just this once?” I would say, “Nope, not this time.” Now, I later found out that, like you can get a grilled cheese sandwich for next to nothing, and those little ice cream cones are fantastic, and they were also next to nothing. So I thought, “Hmm, it’s actually not such a bad idea to get lunch here every once in a while.” So I would say to Grace proactively, “Hey, when we head to the pool today, we’re going to be able to order some food from the little area there, and we can eat lunch at the pool.” So it wasn’t in a response to her, asking, begging, trying to push the fence. It was something you put in place ahead of time. And that’s a huge difference. Children learn not by what we say. So much more than by what they experience. So if the experience is that boundary holds, that fence holds, then again, they learn kicking it doesn’t help anything.

 

Heather  23:29

And it can get real tricky when everybody else is buying food, and your rule is, we’re not gonna get food. And sometimes, as parents, we don’t want to, I think, deprive our child of that, whatever that that food brings, because we brought snacks. It’s not that they’re not gonna get fed, right? But it’s the excitement, or, I don’t know-

 

Kristina  23:59

And the snacks we brought don’t look nearly as good once you see what the others are having, right?

 

Heather  24:04

And so we can join in that empathy. But we also say, “Empathy without boundaries always equals chaos.” And that is a really important thing to remember. And the distinguishing point that you made is that you can change. You don’t have to lock yourself into something forever. It’s that in the moment, once you’ve set a boundary, you don’t want to move your fence in front of that child because they’re begging, because everybody else is doing it right. Because that’s never a message we want to send our kids. We don’t want to send the message that, well, we’re just going to do this because everybody else is. At least, I never wanted to send that message. But you set it up on the front end so that it could be something that felt special and felt together. I really like that. It felt like we’re going to do this. This is going to be fun for us. Set it up ahead of time so it wasn’t in response to whining, begging, pleading, gnashing of teeth, a tantrum. Yep, none of those things, right? It was established ahead of time, and establishing those boundaries allows everyone to be on the same page and have a really clear understanding and a much more enjoyable experience.

 

Kristina  25:35

So tech time was another tricky one for me. If I was busy doing something. During all of COVID, I worked from home. I was still working full time. I was at home. My daughter was at home. So that got dicey, right? So she would have tech time, and we had a boundary on that tech time. But man, oh man, if I was in a conference call and she came up and her time was done, it was so easy for me to say, “Yeah, you can have another half an hour.” Because I still had work to do. I was in the middle of it, right? And being able to respond to her while still working put me in a really tricky situation. Sometimes it’s not work, sometimes it’s just I’m in the middle of getting dinner ready, or whatever it might be. And so I would say, “Yeah, you can have a little bit more time.” You put the limits on their tech where, you know, it turns off in 30 minutes, and then you put the code back in and give them another 30. That set me up for a child that would consistently ask for more and then have big fits when she couldn’t get it, because sometimes she did and she didn’t understand what the difference was.

 

Heather  26:40

Well, why do I get it sometimes, and then other times you’re just so frustrated and shout “no” or say “no” or say “you know you’ve reached your limit.”

 

Kristina  26:52

So I was not setting her up for success. Or for me, it certainly wasn’t setting us up to have a smoother journey, a more joyful hike. We were kind of engaged in that back and forth, the tug of war, the “Am I going to topple the fence today, or am I not going to topple the fence today?” So there are times like that when, again, I like to zoom out a lot and think about the boundary we’ve established. Is it reasonable? Is it developmentally appropriate? How am I equipping my child to be successful in meeting that expectation? Do they have the skill to meet the expectation? Because sometimes we set a boundary that they don’t have the skill for and then we can’t expect a child to meet an expectation when they don’t have the skill for it yet. 

 

Heather  27:40

So let’s talk about how we determine boundaries. You said a couple of things right there, that we want to carefully select them for what we’re trying to teach, that we want it to be developmentally appropriate. But let’s look at what boundaries for the really young child look like. Because really it’s only a few things, and it really is to protect them from physical harm when they’re really little. We want our boundaries to keep them safe. That’s primary importance. Keep the young child safe. We want them to protect property like we’re not going to write on the walls, even though sometimes children do, and then we have to figure that out and what the consequences for that, but teaching again, how do we protect our property? And then the other one is often to protect the child and other children emotionally. So we want to make sure our child feels emotionally safe and that they’re not doing anything to make other people or children feel emotionally unsafe, and that kind of goes back to the pool. Like we’re keeping those, a young child you’re not going beyond this point, because I don’t want you to get sucked into that. You can’t go beyond this point in the yard because you’ll be too close to the road. You know, you must wear your helmet when you ride your scooter. All of those are safety things.

 

Kristina  29:04

But what do you do? Because welcome to our homes, right? With siblings. When one sibling is whacking and wailing on the other sibling, what do you do for us? One of our foundations is that you are safe in this home. You are safe in this family. Safe, physically. Safe, emotionally. Your property is safe and that’s something that we as the adults are responsible for ensuring and teaching. Yes, it’s your job as the children to help us do that. But if something occurs that is unsafe in the family, whether with words or with physical harm or with property damage, what do we do?

 

Heather  29:44

So a commonly occurring thing: There are two children. One of them took something from someone else, or somebody wanted to turn and didn’t get it. They both want the same thing, and it ends up being chucked at the other person, and it connects. I remember a specific time that this happened with our girls. This happened at my house in the basement, where the kind of toy room was, and I think it was like a doctor’s kit.

 

Kristina  30:10

Doc McStuffins, I bet probably,

 

Heather  30:12

And it was the otoscope that probably they both wanted. One of them had it. I’m not sure what happened. Ava ended up chucking it at Grace, and it made contact and hit her. And Grace said, “Ow, Ava.” And so I went over there, and then I think she began to cry. And I very intentionally physically turned my back to the perpetrator. So whoever has perpetrated the violent act, or made the poor decision, I just put my back to them physically, because I don’t want to make eye contact. I don’t want to give them any attention or input for that behavior, because we want to extinguish it all, right?

 

Kristina  30:54

So when you go in Grace is crying. You have ascertained that Ava threw something and make contact, and you go in and you said you turned your back to Ava. Why do you do that? What are you doing in turning your back toward the perpetrator, in this case, Ava and focusing on the victim, in this case, Grace?

 

Heather  31:16

It’s very intentional. Even though Ava’s my child, right? She’s behaved poorly. She’s done something that I don’t like. She’s not keeping the place safe. She is just low level assaulted a friend. So I’m gonna go in and I’m gonna keep my back to her intentionally, because I don’t wanna give that any energy. I don’t wanna give her any attention for that negative behavior, because I don’t want to see more of it, right? What I want to teach in that moment is, “You just caused harm to a friend.” So I go to Grace, your daughter, and I scoop her up, and I say, “That seems like it hurt. That was not kind.” And of course, Ava’s watching this entire exchange, like, “Oh, this apparently wasn’t a popular choice, right?”

 

Kristina  32:05

Yeah, and so you said to Grace, “Something happe”ned.

 

Heather  32:08

“Tell me what happened.”

 

Kristina  32:

“Ava threw that at me, and it really hurt.”

 

Heather  32:16

“Yes, see that. It hurt. Hit me right here. Did you like it? No. Why didn’t you like it? I didn’t like it because it hurt. Tell her, look at Ava’s eyes.

 

Kristina  32:29

I didn’t like it when you did that. It hurt, Ava.

 

Heather  32:31

Do you hear what Grace said? Yes. Say it back to her. “She didn’t like it because it hurt when I threw that.” Right. Grace, tell her what to do next time.

 

Kristina  32:43

Next time if you want it,  just ask me if you can have it. Or if it’s my turn to have it, just bring it to me. But it hurt when you threw it at me.

 

Heather  32:55

Ava, did you hear what Grace said? Yes. She said that next time to bring it to her. Don’t throw it at her when it’s her turn. But I wasn’t done with it, Mom, I wanted it longer. I hear you. You were frustrated. Next time say, “I’m frustrated.” Don’t throw it at Grace.

 

Kristina  33:13

And that right there is teaching children skills, right? Skills to be able to respond when something doesn’t feel good to them, how to communicate that, how to share what you would like to have happen instead.

 

Heather  33:31

We aren’t done yet. I mean, I would say, “Ava, come over, pick this up, go back, try it again, and have a do over.” And then you do it the correct way? Yeah, you did it. There’s no ill will towards either one of them. No, they’re children that are learning, right?

 

Kristina  33:48

It just presents an opportunity to teach. 

 

Heather  33:53

To teach. Yep. Absolutely. They don’t have the skills. And if we can look at it, remove all of our stuff as parents that we tend to like, “Oh, people saw that. They think I’m a bad parent.” No, it’s just children being children learning skills within the skill set that they already have, right?

 

Kristina  34:16

And people will think a lot of things, and we can’t control. If we focus on trying to control that, then we’ve lost sight of what we’re doing. We’re more concerned about our reputation as parents and our children behaving in a way that secures our sense of “we’re good parents” and childhood is messy. They will make mistakes. 

 

Heather  34:39

We will make mistakes. And they will make mistakes within our homes and within our friend groups with children that we know and love, they will do those things. But if we can all approach it with “what can we teach? How can we grow?” and focus on that? It is a much more joyful journey. And we can all support one another.

 

Kristina  35:01

Now I don’t intend to make this sound like it’s easy. There are some children who, mine was one of them, who have real difficulty controlling their impulses. They’re lacking or have a very short pause between input and reaction. And so sometimes the task is helping a child build their pause. And we’ll talk about that in an upcoming episode about let’s just give them a nibble, though. Let’s give them a little nibble. What is the most common question that we ask a child when we’re trying to teach the pause?

 

Heather  35:37

The thing that I always try to teach teachers or parents, is to say to the child, “What’s your plan?” Because what that question does is it forces a pause, and the child thinks, “What is my plan?” They maybe didn’t have a plan. When a stick goes in the air, when the rule is sticks stay to the ground, I could say simply, “Sticks stay to the ground,” – but there’s a plan that child has that stick in the air for a reason. So it’s much more effective to say, “What’s your plan with the stick?” I’m really mad. I’m going to- “Oh, you’re really angry? Put the stick to the ground. I’m here to help.” Yep, you don’t want them brandishing the stick, and it’s going to crack over a head, or it’s going to slam into something or fly through the air and potentially harm somebody. But for really impulsive kids, where there’s that impulse-action, impulse-action, and we need to teach the pause, the thing to get them doing frequently until it becomes their new habit, even when you don’t ask, “What’s my plan?” So just saying to them, “What’s your plan? What’s your plan? How are we going to get from the door at Target to our car? What’s your plan?” And it might be your plan and you’ve given some direction, and they had choice within it: “Are you going to hold my hand? Are you going to sit in the cart basket? What’s your plan?” It gives them choice. It also gives them a sense of being in charge, which they want to be in charge of themselves to a certain degree, within our confines and our fence and so on. But “What’s your plan?” Is a great way to teach them how to pause and think things through, and then it just becomes a habit when we ask it frequently enough.

 

Kristina  37:44

We often, like you had mentioned earlier, do not see the entirety of an interaction between children before somebody’s hurt. 

 

Heather  37:54

Almost never, right, do we see the entire interaction.

 

Kristina  37:58

So, in moving into those spaces when something has happened, to get down on their level and saying, “Something happened. I’m here to help.”

 

Heather  38:07

Oftentime  with children, we don’t know who did what. But the one who instigated an act that is probably breaking the rules or is going to seem unkind, will take off and run. And oftentimes those children know they’ve done something wrong, and they know there’s going to be a consequence or and maybe at home, it’s a punishment, I don’t know. They’re afraid they’re in trouble. They’re afraid they’re in trouble. And so they peel out of there. And so getting low immediately says to them, “I am friend.” And then verbalizing, “I’m here to help. Something has happened. I’m here to help you. Let me know when you’re ready.”

 

Kristina  38:54

Because too often we charge in and see the child who’s injured and then look to the person injured, and we think we know what happened.

 

Heather  39:04

And really to let the injurer be because they need a minute to compose themselves, and they’re not ready, because they know, typically that they’re in trouble. But there’s real power in going to that victim and letting everybody see when someone’s harmed, we go to them first.

 

Kristina  39:22

And like we’ve talked about in discipline: our end game is not that now you perpetrator, child, you’re in trouble. It is much more about saying “So how can we have a fix? How can we have a do over? What can we do differently because we’re teaching skills.”

 

Heather  39:40

And how can we check in on whomever we’ve harmed, and how can we make that right?

 

Kristina  39:44

Yes, because that’s part of life, right? We make decisions throughout our lifetime that unintentionally or intentionally cause harm, and what are we going to do with that? Simply saying, “I’m sorry” doesn’t fix the harm. Doesn’t heal the broken. 

 

Heather  40:03

It doesn’t teach a skill. It doesn’t teach, in fact, it erodes the words “I’m sorry,” and reduces them to empty words, I would say, because children don’t even understand that process. Like the little ones that we’re working with, and they get into this habit then of just doing kind of crappy things and be like, “sorry, sorry, yeah, sorry,” and thinking it’s okay, and we never grow the skill, right?

 

Kristina  40:29

So one of the other things, again, we work a lot with preschoolers at this point in our careers, and it could be that, like you had said, a child does something that causes harm, and that could even be, “I don’t want to play with you.” Words that feel unsafe to a child or hurt a child’s feelings, while the child who says it may not be ready to have that conversation. And so I’ll say to the child, “So I know you’re really upset about that. That really hurt. You know, child B is not ready yet to talk about that. So you have a choice: You can wait for that child to be ready, and you can stay here and be sad. I mean, that’s absolutely an option. Or you can go and play while we’re waiting for a child B to be ready.” We need to make sure that we come back around and close that circle, that there actually is that connection point. But sometimes, again, depending on what a child has experienced, how much shame they’ve been exposed to, what being in trouble looks like, they may not be ready to come back and have that conversation right away, or vice versa. The one who’s been harmed may not be ready to have the conversation with the person who harmed them. And so being able to give that space, and that’s a beautiful way to teach consent.

 

Heather  41:48

“May I talk to you?” No, oh, they’re not ready. It’s going to take a few more minutes, and that is really the definition of a natural consequence. Something happened. That child now needs some space and time and distance from it. And another childs need to either feel better about it or have maybe us as the parent, because we want to remedy it or solve it, doesn’t get to over impose on the other child’s speed at which they’re ready to receive the other part of that. It goes back to not everything is a teachable moment. You can circle back later. I think that’s something that we forget as parents, that we have more time we don’t have to immediately deal with those things. We can circle back at another time and have a really powerful conversation about something that will go much better when we have some distance, all of us from whatever transpired, right? Getting back to our thinking brain. Yes, so we talked about little little people, and having the boundaries be safety based and emotional safety and all of that. But as our kids are older, over time, we’ve had to change our boundaries and our expectations within our home as our kids have grown, they’ve become more capable. They’ve matured. And then that’s really where we move into that sweet spot of our boundaries can really teach our values and really grow them into the people that we would love to see them be. They’re going to be who they’re going to be, but as parents, we can help shape that. And that’s the power of nurture. There’s that whole nature piece they come into the world who they are, right? But as parents, we’re the nurture we get to help grow them into who they’re going to be. And boundaries is a great way to do that.

 

Kristina  44:06

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina

 

Heather  44:12

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  44:17

Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina 44:18

See you on the trails! 

 

Kristina  44:20

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  44:34

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  44:42

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands-on, outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  44:55

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org. 

Episode 6: Being The Detective / Chasing The “Why,” Part 2 of 2

In this episode Kristina and Heather continue their conversation about being the detectives in our homes. They discuss strategies for understanding and managing children’s behaviors, particularly around food and screen time. They emphasize the importance of connection during family meals, suggesting a balance between parental control and allowing children to listen to their bodies. They share their experiences with their own children around specific food preferences. They also highlight the impact of screen time on brain chemistry, recommending 15-minute limits to avoid dopamine overload. The conversation underscores the many benefits of outdoor activities for regulating the central nervous system and fostering healthy family dynamics.

 

FOOD AND MEALTIMES

“The key is to shift the dynamic from a power struggle over food to a nurturing time of bonding and nourishment – for both the body and the spirit. By removing the fight, you create space for meaningful connection.” 

Heather and Kristina’s suggestions for creating a peaceful and nourishing mealtime experience focused on connection and allowing children to listen to their bodies:

– Provide a variety of healthy options and let your children choose what and how much they want to eat. Avoid power struggles over finishing everything on their plate.

– Make the mealtime about connection, conversation, and gratitude rather than just the food. Ask questions, share about your days, and express appreciation.

– Set up an “approved snack shelf” that your children can access freely throughout the day. This gives them autonomy while ensuring they have healthy options.

– Allow your children to ask to be excused when they feel done, rather than forcing them to sit until everyone is finished. This gives them a sense of control.

– Avoid distractions like screens during mealtimes. Keep the focus on being present with each other.

“We want to empower our children to listen to their internal cues of hunger and fullness, rather than relying on external rules or pressure.”

– When children indicate they are done eating, validate their feelings and avoid pressuring them to finish everything on their plate. Say something like “Okay, it sounds like your body is feeling satisfied. You can be excused when you’re ready.”

– Avoid labeling foods as “good” or “bad.” Instead, talk about “strong foods” and “weak foods” to encourage a balanced perspective.

– Make mealtimes about connection, not just consumption. Engage in conversation, share gratitude, and focus on the time shared together,

– If a child doesn’t want to eat what’s served, offer the “snack shelf” options rather than becoming a short-order cook. Maintain the boundaries you’ve set while remaining flexible.

 

SCREEN TIME & SCHEDULE OVERLOAD

Heather and Kristina discuss the impact of dopamine spikes on all of us, especially kiddos. They talk about implementing a 15-minute screen time limit, with breaks in between, to avoid those dopamine spikes and the tricky behaviors that arrive with them.

They remind us to check in on the family’s overall schedule, attachment, sleep, and nutrition to address any imbalances that may be contributing to behavioral challenges.

  

OUTDOOR TIME

“It’s important to get back to those basics and say: What is attachment like? How are we sleeping? How’s the appetite? What is being eaten? What kinds of fluids are we taking in? How much time are we outside? We know as parents that spending time outside is good for children’s physical health, their emotional health. 

Being outside is a natural regulator. It is for both child and adult.”

 Heather and Kristina discuss how crucial outdoor time and physical activity are for helping regulate children’s (and our own) central nervous systems.

A few of Heather and Kristina’s favorite ways of incorporating more outdoor time and nature-based activities into our daily routine, which we know is so crucial for our kiddos and supports the well-being of the entire family:

– Start the day with a brief outdoor activity, like a family walk around the block or a few minutes of stretching in the yard. This can help regulate our whole family’s central nervous systems.

– Plan a picnic lunch or snack time outdoors, whether in your backyard, a local park, or even just on the front steps. Eating in nature can be very calming. 

– Incorporate nature exploration into your regular activities. For example, go on a nature scavenger hunt during your neighborhood walk, or observe the birds and insects in your yard or at the park.

– Set up an outdoor play area with simple toys like bubbles, sidewalk chalk, or a small sandbox. Encourage free, unstructured play time outside.

 – Take advantage of local parks, nature centers like ODC’s Outdoor Discovery Center, or hiking trails on the weekends for longer outdoor adventures as a family.

Episode 6: Being The Detective / Chasing The “Why,” Part 2 of 2

 

Kristina  00:00

In this episode, we’re continuing our detective work in understanding those tricky behaviors in our kids. 

 

Heather  00:06

We’ll share some of the strategies we use to search for clues so we can keep ourselves steady and support our kids in those challenging moments. 

 

Kristina  00:14

We’ll go further into this idea of chasing the “why” to understand unexpected behaviors, specifically when it comes to food and screen time.

 

Heather  00:23

We’ll return again to why connection is so vital, especially at key moments like around meal times or transition times in our homes.

 

Kristina  00:31

And speaking of connection, we’ll talk a bit more about screen time and how it affects all of us, especially children.

 

Heather  00:38

We’ll share some things that might help you create healthy boundaries around screens. And we’ll talk about the power of the great outdoors and how getting outside really regulates our kids’ central nervous systems and ours as well.

 

Kristina  00:52

Fresh air and a bit of nature can really do wonders for all of us. We’ll wrap up by talking about how challenging it can be when these basics are out of balance. 

 

Heather  01:03

So let’s get out there, keep exploring and continue being the detective for our kids. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood!

 

Kristina  01:13

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  01:27

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good, long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  01:49

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are

 

Heather  01:55

Are you ready?

 

Heather and Kristina  01:55

Let’s hit the trails!

 

Heather  02:02

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:14

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives. 

 

Heather  02:22

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. So let’s talk about food for a bit. It’s one of our basics that we say to go back to, and food is a thing in a lot of families, and it means a lot of different things in a lot of families. Absolutely does. And I think it can be really easy to mislead ourselves as parents on how much food our children need, and what we like to say in our parenting class is, if you look at your child and they make a fist that’s the size of their stomach. And it can get full pretty quickly. It doesn’t take a whole lot to fill that stomach up. Right now, they’re growing. Their brain is developing, and so we want them to eat frequently. My daughter was a grazer. I remember this, and it made me a little crazy. It’s not something that I particularly love to do is graze, but it was who she was. It seemed like who she was wired to be. She would eat very healthy things. She loved vegetables. She loved fruits. This was a really hard thing for my husband. I was home. We had family meals. I’ve said before that was important to us. So I would prepare dinner, and he wanted all of the children to eat what was prepared. And I can appreciate that. He felt like that honored me. And what I wanted, after having been with the children all day, was a happy meal, not from McDonald’s, in my home. I wanted to have a happy meal time focused on connection, not necessarily on food.

 

Kristina  04:15

You wanted the fellowship of the family around the table.

 

Heather  04:18

Fellowship. I wanted it not to be this fight. I just wanted a peaceful dinner time, right? Because I was, you know, through the witching hour, as I like to call it, which I think oftentimes happens just before dinner. And I just wanted peace and calm and fellowship. I wanted to talk about our gratitude moment.

 

Kristina  04:38

You wanted nourishment and kind of at the deepest sense, mind and body.

 

Heather  04:42

Yes, mind and body nourishment. And so for sweet little Ava, who I wasn’t ever sure she was going to be a meat eater, and I think that’s a texture thing, maybe for her, I don’t know, to be honest. And I was like, “I’m really not gonna chase the why on that, because I got 99 problems.” 

 

Kristina  05:08

You don’t eat meat. I can live with that, like whatever. 

 

Heather  05:11

I wasn’t gonna get hung up on that detail, which is hilarious, because my husband? Meat at every meal is what my husband 

 

Kristina

Yeah, meat and potatoes.

 

Heather

That’s who he is, and so that’s what he likes. And Ava was not into that, so I just created a shelf in our refrigerator that had the little sweet containers that she could open on her own, and it had things like baby carrots that were washed and grapes that were clean, and blueberries and hummus and celery sticks and yogurt and cheese sticks, she ate all of that. It could just be a shelf that the children could have access to in my home. I always wanted them to ask if they could have a snack, because I wanted to be aware of when they were eating. But that was their shelf that they could go to if the answer was “Yes, go and get something out of that shelf.” It was also the shelf that at dinner time, if, for whatever reason, you didn’t want the crispy chicken, or you didn’t want to be eating the pot roast or whatever we might be having, she could go. And I was fine with that. This took some conversations between my husband and I, because he was much more “Your mother made this. You eat what’s on the table.” And again, I just wanted nourishment, mind and body and peace. So I was like, “Can we just try this and see?” And he was like, “Yeah. I mean, if that’s okay with you.” And I was like, “It’s okay with me. It’s fine.” And so she went and would do her little thing. And by golly, if you take the fight out of it, it’s so powerful, because she would tug, and she had nothing to tug against, right? She’d just go do her own thing. Get her little grapes, get her hummus and her carrots and her celery. I’m looking at her plate going, “it looks healthier than mine. Quite honestly, I don’t have hard boiled eggs.” Like she’s got protein. She’s got vegetables. I’m all good. And she was happy. And there was no fight. 

 

Kristina  07:15

You said something that was so key, and that is removing the power struggle about food, and this is a very common thing that we do. And it comes from a place of love. It can also come from a place of desiring to control that’s not nearly as healthy as a place of love and wanting to ensure that your child has enough food that they’re able to get what their body needs in order to function well.

 

Heather  07:45

And, in my family, my extended family, my grandmother was an amazing cook, and to her food was love. She loved you through food. And so we have some of these kind of things that we attach to food, right? And as much as I love my grandmother, and it was so great when I was growing up that she like loved through food, because I love to eat. But I also noticed that there was a component to that that I didn’t want to pass on. I wanted my kids to understand strong foods and weak foods, and your fist is the size of your stomach, and so you are check in with your body. I wanted them to listen to their body and not be trying to fill themselves with love through food.

 

Kristina  08:35

Yes, and we often say that we, as the grown ups, are in charge of what comes into our home, regarding food and what we put on the table or make accessible for the children and the rest of the family. We are not in charge of what they actually put in their mouth, right? I know what’s on the plate. I am not in charge of what is consumed because we don’t ever want to inadvertently send the message that I know you are hungry. I know you’re not hungry. I know that you like that. I know that you don’t like that. I know that that tastes fine. I know that that tastes different. My daughter has a very keen sense of smell and taste. They go together, and so I might have made something the exact same way I always make it, and it tastes exactly the same to me, but to her, it tastes different. And it can be tempting to say, “It doesn’t taste different. It’s the same as it always is.” Well, it does taste different to her. And so instead of telling her how something tastes to her, I can say, “Huh, that’s interesting. It tastes the same to me, but there must be something just a little bit different.” Right? Allow for the possibility that what she’s experiencing is what she’s experiencing. If we don’t do that, we run the risk of these children growing never really being able to trust themselves with what their body needs, what their body is experiencing, because they’ve been told over and over and over that that wasn’t so- “You’re not hungry. You just ate, right?” That’s like, well, maybe they are hungry. “You didn’t eat enough at dinner, so there’s no snack.” Well, sometimes we’re just not as hungry at a particular time. We don’t eat as much, and then we are hungry later. And not that it has to be a free for all with food. I know people are like, “I’m not a short order cook. I’m not, you know, in the kitchen all day long,” things like that. I don’t want to be in the kitchen all day long either. But to take the power struggle out of food and to let that time together be about nourishment, be about fellowship, be about connecting with each other, experiencing that joy, expressing that gratitude, being able to celebrate each other and what’s happened in the day during those meal times is a really powerful time within a family for attachment, for belonging, saying we are in this together. We are not here to fight. And children do this because they have to. They’ll throw out like a rope and beg you. Beg you pick it up to do tug of war with them. And if you pick up the other end of the rope and say, “No, you are eating that. No, you will have three more bites” and take a tug on that rope, what happens?

 

Heather  11:41

They tug back.

 

Kristina  11:42

They do. And now you’re stuck. Because once you’re in the midst of a tug of war and a power struggle with your child, it is very difficult to lay down your end and to still be able to move forward being in charge, right? That takes a special kind of nuanced dance.

 

Heather  12:00

And the one most committed to the cause has the least amount of power. 

 

Kristina

Say that again. 

Heather 

The one most committed to the outcome has the least amount of power.

 

Kristina  12:09

Preach it sister. It’s so true. 

 

Heather  12:13

It’s so true. And we get real passionate about these things, and sometimes we don’t even know why. mM boys, when Ava was in this, she was just figuring out who she was and what she liked to eat. And they would be like, “Are you a vegetarian?” And I’m like, “Who cares? Right? That means more meat for you, if she is, right?” I mean, it doesn’t matter, right? Like, she’s gonna figure out who she is, and that’s fine, whatever it turns out to be, but let’s just keep the peace at the table, and let’s make it about connection, and let’s be grateful that we have this food and that we can all eat what we want to eat and fill our bellies and then move on. 

 

Kristina  12:50

I loved what you did with that shelf of foods that were approved by you, right? You’d bought them, you’d brought them into your home. You made them accessible for your children. You set an expectation of “this is the shelf where, if you ask me to have something to eat, and I say, yes, you may go to that shelf.” You did all of that, which kept you from, “Um, Mom? Can I have grilled cheese? Mom, I want a hot dog.”

 

Heather  13:19

It was a boundary. Yes, it was an option, but it was also a built-in boundary. If you don’t like it, I don’t need to know about it, you go to the shelf, right? Serve yourself. Right? Wasn’t more work for me. They had access to it.

 

Kristina  13:32

So, because I don’t want any of us to feel like you need to give your child exactly what they want to eat when they want to eat it, and fall into that game. We make nutritious food that we feel good about accessible to our family.

 

Heather  13:46

And, you know, I always say it’s so much better to be proactive than reactive. That was a compromise my husband and I could make because we differed in our philosophies on this dinner time component, but that was something that he and I could talk through and compromise on and it felt like it was reasonable to him. It felt reasonable to me, and then it just allowed us to be proactive. So that it wasn’t becoming a short order cook. “I don’t like this. What can I have instead? The shelf right?” You can have the shelf right. Go see what’s there.

 

Kristina  14:18

And it also eliminated the child sitting at the table until bedtime, looking at that plate of food, thinking, “I don’t want one more bite of chicken. I don’t want one more bite of broccoli. I’m full.”

 

Heather  14:31

And sometimes it works to our benefit, because guess what? Then I could have lunch tomorrow leftover. I didn’t have to go to the shelf. I could have the leftover chicken and broccoli.

 

Kristina  14:41

Yep. Absolutely! But that’s another example of that power struggle, right? Like that is your dinner. You will eat it all. Clean plate club. Eat it all before you’re able to be excused. And that, again, is saying “I know better what your body needs in this moment.” So you can know better what nutrition they need, but not the volume of food that they consume, right? So they need to make that decision. You didn’t finish your milk. Drink the rest of your milk. Maybe they’re done drinking milk. Maybe we need to work, and this is what we needed to work on in our house – how much food you took, how much milk you poured and so not in any shaming way, but to say, “Huh. So sometimes our eyes are bigger than our bellies, and that looked really good, and you took a big, old huge heap of that. And then you listen to your body, and your body said, I’m done eating that. Now I’m satisfied.” Not even “I’m full,” right? Because I think especially in our country, we get used to this feeling of like, “Oh, I’m so full. Oh, I’m so stuffed.” That’s not actually a great feeling. It doesn’t feel good. I don’t know that it’s necessarily good for us. So we would say, when Grace was done eating, say, just take a minute, take a breath, check in with your body. Are you feeling satisfied? Are you a little bit hungry, yet you’re feeling satisfied? Wonderful. I’m so glad. And she may come back later and need something more to eat. And then there’s a different conversation that happens then. But that checking in, are you satisfied? Is a shift from, are you full? Eat a little more. You don’t know. The next time you’re going to eat, it’s going to be a long time before dinner. Eat a little more. Stepping away from that and moving into really empowering your child to listen to their own body for what they need. 

 

Heather  16:37

Another thing we did in our home was our children had asked to be excused from the dinner table, which maybe sounds really old school, but again, my husband and I had differing views, and he wanted them there, partly, maybe to just be there for the sake of almost from an obedience you’re gonna sit there until We’re done. Yes. And with my child development, I felt like there’s a reasonable ask for children developmentally to be at the dinner table, and then there’s a tipping point to where it’s going to become a tug, and it’s going to turn into more like dog training, yes or obedience training, right? And so again, that was a whole other conversation that we had to have. And the compromise was, how about we let them maybe have some power and voice, and when they feel like they’re done, and then they ask us, may I be excused, which seemed really polite, yes. And so my husband was like, I can get behind that. I think that’s a good way to go. And then we get to decide, you know, we didn’t want them inhaling their food, to just get back outside and play, because maybe the neighbors wanted to play or whatever. And so we always said friends have to go home during dinner hour. They can’t be waiting outside the door, because that’s going to promote them inhaling their food, but they would sit for a bit. We’d have our gratitude, we’d have our food. And then when they were real little, they don’t have a lot of sit. And then beyond that. And so they could ask, may I be excused? Yes, you may be excused. And they had to then take their plate and set it up by the sink, or whatever their routine is, but that was their job.

 

Kristina  18:22

And in our house, same as asking, “May I be excused? Sometimes, the answer was no, not yet,

 

Heather  18:30

Because we’re going to dot, dot, right?

 

Kristina  18:33

But when the meal has moved to a place where it’s just the grown-ups talking, I think, yes, go play. That’s the best thing for your body and your brain. Go play. We’re talking yet, but you can move on to the next activity.

 

Heather  18:47

Absolutely. I wanna just acknowledge that these basics that we talk about can impact one another, like food, can become attachment and connection time, right? And it depends how you set it all up, your time outside and your scheduled activities can also be double dipping into your connection. Time, absolutely, screen time is one of those things that we have to be really mindful of, adult and child, that it isn’t taking away from our connection.

 

Kristina  19:32

And that can be tricky, because there are these games, I don’t happen to play them, but my daughter loves to play these games that are interactive, that, you know, she and my husband, you can be doing it together, right? So it’s not like, oh, screens are always bad. There can be this lovely time of connection while you’re engaged in this activity together. And then there’s also the opportunity for it to be a separator. 

 

Heather  20:03

Yeah, that we’re all just in on our screens, that we’re in a space together, but nobody’s really connected or tuned into one another, looking at one another. So that’s the risk. Yes, really.

 

Kristina  20:14

And it is a slippery slope, that screen time is something that in our lives, I need to stay really mindful of because it’s really easy. I’m old enough that I still really use Facebook. I don’t even use Instagram yet, and I can get to scrolling, and all of a sudden, all this time has gone by, and I think my child was awake. She was in the same room, and I’m not even looking at her. We may be talking about things, but really I’m focused on the screen, so I need to remain mindful of that. I know all this stuff about what happens to your brain when you’re on screens too much. I mean, there are studies coming out all the time. There was one recently that talked about based on the amount of screen time that you have, the more screen time, the less myelination of the neurons in your brain. Holy Moly, the myelination super important because it helps the speed of the communication between the neurons in your brain. That’s really important. Well, the more screens you’re exposed to, the less of that myelination there is. So you’re gonna have slower communication between the neurons in your brain. That’s a big deal. Yeah, right. Know all those things, and yet, oh, those screens are seductive. What is put in front of us. What is put in front of our children is meant to keep us hooked.

 

Heather  21:44

I remember when we were interviewing for positions last year that we had a teacher, and it was a kindergarten teacher that we were interviewing the school that I work at is on a nature center, and we’re very pro-outdoors and play and all of those things. And she was a traditional school kindergarten teacher, and said, I put paper down in front of the children, and they all could use their crayons or their colored pencil, whatever they liked, and I just asked them to draw something from their summer. And she said, for the first time ever, I had a child take their finger and put it to the paper like they were swiping and had expected something to be drawn and to be produced from their finger on paper like it was a screen. It’s kind of staggering. 

 

Kristina  22:41

It is staggering. I do it. The older I get, the worse my eyesight is. And when the text is so small, and I’ll put my little fingers on it, and I’ll think, I can’t zoom it out with my fingers, can I that’s, that’s actually text in a book or a magazine or a medicine bottle and nuts.

 

Heather  22:58

I can’t stretch it, I can’t stretch it!

 

Kristina  23:00

I can’t zoom in on it. So those things are affecting all of us and our culture. And paying attention to what we’re doing on the screens. How rapid the movement is that we’re watching. Are there lights? Are things moving, you know, at triple speed. My husband and I like to bring the old shows back and show our daughter like Mork and Mindy, or, you know, MASH. We don’t let her watch MASH. Well, she’s old enough now that she could watch it, but not in the old days.

 

Heather  23:36

And all of my kids went through Andy Griffith.

 

Kristina  23:39

Yes, Andy Griffith. Us too. But those move at a very different pace than a lot of what’s produced currently.

 

Heather  23:46

Some of them are in black, white. Yes, they sure are. Uh huh. And I think the really important thing to remember as a parent, and I had to remind myself of this all the time, is there is no benefit in a screen. Like always, the greater benefit is a human interaction. And so we can think like, oh, Daniel Tiger is adorable, and it teaches social skills, not better social skills than a human being with a child, a grandparent, a parent, any human interaction is more powerful than a screen interaction, and that was always something that I tried to remind myself of. And again, the days are long, but those years are short, and so it goes back to we’re going to miss this we’re going to want this back. We’re going to wish these days hadn’t gone by so fast. And the reminder of, how am I choosing to spend my days? And for me, that wasn’t a. Much of a thing with screens, but it was a thing with the laundry and the cleaning of the house and those types of things, because I like a clean house, even if there’s DNA in my Lego bins that’s put away. I like things to be clean. I like my house to be orderly. It helps my brain feel decluttered and orderly. But my risk was choosing that over taking the time to stop and be present with my children and screens. The same exact thing can happen. You can choose to get lost in that, or let your kids get lost in that, because it can become an easy babysitter.

 

Kristina  25:43

It can. And it’s something that we as parents need to decide, for our own family, for ourselves and for our children, what’s going to be our norm with screens in our own home? I don’t want to communicate ever that screens are evil. Screens are bad, right? You know, get them out of here-

 

Heather  26:01

Because then anything that becomes so much more appealing to the child, then, because anything we put off limits, it’s like, “Oh, why? I want more of that.” Now, all of a sudden, just because you said it’s like the last one on the shelf, I want it. I didn’t even want it ten minutes ago. It’s the last one now I want it, right?

 

Kristina  26:16

So we need to figure that out, right? As parents, what’s going to work for our family being mindful of what we know about the impact of screens on the developing brain. What we know about the impact of screens in contributing to a sedentary lifestyle, what we know about the impact of screens in the dissolution of connectedness with other people. We know those things, and yet, for my house, with the only child, there is more screen use, certainly, than in yours, but making choices, especially when she was younger, about what she would consume on the screen, doing that as often as we could together so that we could talk about what she was learning if she was watching Wild Kratts. We loved that she learned a ton about nature and all living things through that show. And being able to have conversations about that. But also, I did need to go do the laundry, and she was lovely. She could play on her own, and she also used screens. 

 

Heather  27:21

So it’s about setting your limits. It is what are your boundaries, and then sticking to them.

 

Kristina  27:26

So one of the things that I think is helpful to know is that, well, first of all, there’s a difference between Facetiming grandma or Zooming with the cousins and being engaged in some of these really, really high energy things that are fast to level up.

 

Heather  27:43

Yeah, level up, level up, like a dopamine casino. Yes, it is. 

 

Kristina  27:49

And that’s what’s important to be aware of, is that that type of screen usage for young children will always say you’ve got about twenty minutes give or take before in their brain, there’s a dump of something called dopamine, and dopamine is a feel good drug. Man, when we have that dopamine dump, we just want more. We want more. It becomes a really addictive feeling. Dopamine is the same drug that gets dumped in our brains when you gamble or when you’re taking certain drugs or alcohol. Yep, absolutely. So it’s why, when we have our children engaging with screens, there are times when they can give them up without much of a fuss, and other times, when they are like little addicts and you’re trying to take their drugs.

 

Heather  28:47

That brain wants what that brain wants, and they’ll come out swinging. 

 

Kristina  28:51

They sure will, because we’ve had the dopamine dump. So we encourage parents to really pay attention. Do not dance with the devil and go right up to twenty minutes. If you know twenty minutes is your child’s limit, back it up to eighteen, and then, you know, set an alarm to remind you that that’s when it needs to end and we need to take that screen and have a break before going back to it. 

 

Heather  29:14

Do you remember the family? This was years ago in a parenting class that had said Santa had brought their children iPads?

 

Kristina  29:23

Yes.

 

Heather  29:24

And she was like, “Oh, it has changed them.” And it hadn’t been, I think it was still like, January, yeah, it wasn’t long. And so she had to go back and be like, “Santa made a mistake. He didn’t know.”

 

Kristina  29:41

Yeah, he didn’t know. And I remember. Yes, I do remember that family and mom implemented a fifteen minute rule. You can have fifteen minutes on screens, and then we’re taking a break, which is what we did in my house as well. I made these little magnets that were each worth fifteen minutes, and Grace got the magnets. And she could choose when she was going to use them, but she couldn’t use them back to back, because fifteen minutes was the limit, unless it was Daniel Tiger’s Neighborhood, a show like that, which is just slower and a darling,  little educational show. So then she could, you know, use two of them back to back. But otherwise, it’s like, if you’re playing a game, or if you’re engaged in, like we were talking about before, the technology that’s really fast and really engaging and sucks you in and get all levels. She can only do it at fifteen minutes at a time. Because that’s what my kid needed before the dopamine dump. And then she was able to hand it over. I mean, she wasn’t thrilled about it, but it’s like, “Oh, the fifteen minutes is up. Okay.” As opposed to if we went to like twenty-two. Oh, man, that was not gonna go easy. And it might end up with the screen getting chucked across the room. I mean, literally, it’s like a different person after you’ve had that dump of dopamine.

 

Heather  31:01

And fun fact: since we’re talking about brain chemistry, saying to your child at the fifteen minute mark when they hand it over really well,  saying “You were able to do that really well. That’s super helpful.” Yes. And having a little hug and a high five well done, serotonin is released happy chemical. Also going outside, being in the sunshine, running and playing, being in nature, serotonin release is a happy chemical. So there are really good brain chemical releases that can happen. We just want them to be the right kind. And the dopamine is one we need to just be aware of, because it can radically alter the brain wants what the brain wants. It’s not the child’s fault. It’s the child’s brain reacting. Ding, ding.

 

Kristina  31:49

And unfortunately, sometimes we respond like the child’s choosing it.

 

Heather  31:53

Like they’re just a prisoner to what’s happening in their brain. 

 

Kristina  31:57

Absolutely. It’s not that they’re choosing to be ugly about it or to have a fit about it. They’re not choosing that. That’s what’s happening within their brain. And that’s when, again, for me, I needed to take a look and say, I didn’t set the alarm. I let it go too long. I was on the phone. I was doing whatever. 

 

Heather  32:19

Because that can happen. It’s like, “Oh, I cleaned one bathroom too many. Yes, and now I’m gonna have to pay for that. Yep. So now we’re all gonna go outside and run that out.”

 

Kristina  32:29

And instead of punishing the child, being able to view them with compassion, like, “Oh, my lands, yes, you just we do those things as parents.”

 

Heather  32:37

We all do them. Yes, sometimes it’s like, I know I’m dancing with the devil and I’m just gonna do it a minute because I need to whatever you need to do. And that happens to all of us, but not blaming the child, right? And being like, “, I know the consequence of this action, and now I’m paying it dearly.”

 

Kristina  33:00

Yes, and I have compassion for you, child, that this is really hard for you to give up. And so I’m here with you in the midst of that, and we can shift to doing something else that’s going to, again, release that serotonin and get us to a better place. And so, like you had said, it’s important to get back to those basics and say, What is attachment like? How are we sleeping? How’s the appetite? What is being eaten? What kinds of fluids are we taking in? How much time are we outside? We know as parents that spending time outside is good for children’s physical health, their emotional health. 

 

Heather  33:43

Being outside is a natural regulator. It is for both child and adult. If you ever think about if you’ve got the little one and they’re fussy and cranky and maybe are at a birthday party and it’s a little over stimulating in the house, because there are lots of people there. What do people do when the weather is nice outside, they take the child and they go outside, and all of a sudden they’re watching the wind move the leaves on the tree, and you’re pointing something out, and that child quiets, and that adult calms. Nature has a beautiful way of just resting the central nervous system and aligning your breath with maybe the wind or the bird song or the tree frogs, it ignites our senses, which calms our central nervous system. So that’s a wonderful thing to do. Have children play outside. I’ll say that to teachers in the classroom, when children are maybe struggling like go back outside, everything will calm, and they do we spend a lot of time outside for that very reason. 

 

Kristina  34:51

Oh yeah. And teachers will say that child’s a different child outside than they are when we are on beyond days-

 

Heather  34:56

When the whole day is. Outside of the fence, in the beyond-

 

Kristina  35:02

In the forest. Yes, yep, they’re magical times.

 

Heather  35:07

So when we see behavioral shifts, we spend time focusing on those basics, looking at how’s our attachment and connection with our child? How much one on one, how much individual time are we spending with them. What is our schedule like? What’s the rhythm of our day? Are we over scheduled? Are we under scheduled? Do we have enough time outside? Are we being physically active? How much screen time is everyone getting,

 

Kristina  35:35

And how much sleep is the household getting?

 

Heather  35:38

and what are we putting in our bodies? And we can think that you go through them as a checklist, and it’s like, “Oh, check. Did that. Check. Did that.” But really, when you look at, are we over scheduled impacts, maybe, how much time you’re just getting in play outside, right? Or what you’re eating because how much you’re sleeping, yeah, are you eating in the van on the run because you’re in a hurry to get to your next thing, and does that impact then your sleep as well?

 

Kristina  36:08

So we can talk about these basics in isolation, but truly they’re all woven together.

 

Heather  36:15

Yes, because our screen time also can very much impact our rest time, or our sleep time and our activity level. 

 

Kristina  36:21

I often wished that some of – my husband’s a big Star Trek fan, and they have those little like readers that you can just scan a body and it’ll tell you exactly what it is. Right? Our children don’t have those, but getting back to those basics and exploring and looking for clues within the basics is a great place to start. Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina-

 

Heather  36:50

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. 

 

Kristina  36:56

Until next time: see you on the trails!  The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  37:13

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  37:20

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  37:33

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature to learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCnetwork.org.

Episode 5: Being The Detective / Chasing The “Why,” Part 1 of 2

 

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina discuss the concept of “being the detective” in understanding behavior changes in children. They emphasize the importance of considering basic clues such as diet, sleep, screen time, physical activity, and attachment. They highlight how life changes like moving homes or the arrival of a new sibling can impact children’s behavior. The conversation underscores the need for empathy, patience, and a support system. They stress the significance of not jumping to conclusions and instead considering why behavioral changes make sense. Examples include things like allergies, ear infections, and family dynamics that might not be the obvious reason behind a sudden shift in a child’s behavior. They also advocate for maintaining routines and the importance of seeking professional help when needed.

“We’re like this ping pong going back and forth, and instead of really taking a breath and searching for the “why, “ we’re just reacting…many times out of a place of fear.”

 

Challenges of Parenting and Reacting to Behavior Changes

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges of parenting and the tendency to react out of fear in the face of sudden behavior shifts in our kids.
  • Kristina shares her experience of reacting to her child’s behavior without understanding the underlying causes.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the impact of parental behavior on children’s behavior and the importance of not pathologizing things too quickly.
  • The conversation touches on the role of internet searches in exacerbating parental anxiety and the importance of taking a breath and searching for the “why” behind these sudden behavior changes.

Kristina:

“So when we talk about why it’s important to talk about this, it is because it happens to everybody. It’s because we worry about things like crazy as parents raising children in this world, and many times we fall into this place of it being really important to us that others view us as parents and our children as having it all together, right?…So that pressure to appear like we’ve got it all together, when maybe we don’t.”

 

Heather:

“None of us do.” 

The Importance of Attachment and Basic Needs

  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of attachment and connection with primary caregivers.
  • Heather shares her experience of dealing with behavioral changes in her children due to her grandparents’ illnesses.
  • Kristina talks about the impact of family routines and schedules on children’s behavior.
  • The conversation highlights the need to consider basic needs like diet, sleep, and screen time when dealing with behavioral changes.

“So when we talk about “getting back to the basics,” these are the things we’re talking about: We’re talking about attachment and connection. We’re talking about how we fill our days and our schedule. We’re talking about what we put in our bodies. We’re talking about how much sleep is the child getting. We think about how much time we’re spending out in nature and how much time we’re spending in front of a screen, as that impacts behavior hugely.”

 

Understanding and Addressing Behavioral Shifts

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of understanding why behavioral shifts make sense in the context of a child’s life.
  • Kristina shares a story of a parent whose child’s behavior changed after a family member became ill, emphasizing the need to consider family dynamics.
  • Heather talks about the importance of normalizing discomfort and reassuring children during times of change.
  • The conversation includes examples of how children’s behavior can be impacted by physical discomfort, such as ear infections.

 

The Role of the Support Village and Professional Help

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of having a support village that includes friends and professionals who can offer advice and reassurance.
  • Heather emphasizes the need to rule out physical causes of behavioral changes and the importance of seeking professional help when needed.

 

Impact of Life Changes on Children’s Behavior

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how significant life changes, such as moving homes or job changes, can impact children’s behavior.
  • Kristina shares her experience of her child’s behavior changing when her husband traveled frequently.
  • Heather talks about the impact of new siblings on older children and the importance of reassuring them of their place in the family.
  • The conversation includes examples of how children’s behavior can be impacted by changes in their routine and environment.

 

Normalizing Behavioral Changes and Seeking Help

  • Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of normalizing behavioral changes and, again, seeking help when needed.
  • Kristina shares her experience of keeping a calendar to track her child’s sleep and behavior changes to better understand the patterns.
  • Heather talks about the importance of reassuring children during times of change and normalizing their feelings.
  • The conversation highlights the need to consider all possible factors when dealing with behavioral changes and to seek professional help when needed.

 

Further Reading :

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

Understanding Temperaments:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 5: Being The Detective / Chasing The “Why”, Part 1 of 2

 

Heather  00:00

Today, we’re diving into a two-part series on what we like to call “Being the Detectives.” This concept is all about understanding behavior changes in our kids.

 

Kristina  00:10

It’s about chasing the “why” – trying to solve the mystery of what’s behind our children’s behavior so we can better support them and approach them with more understanding.

 

Heather  00:20

And to crack the case, we need to consider some basic clues, like checking on our child’s diet, sleep, amount of screen time, physical activity, and especially our attachment with them. 

 

Kristina  00:31

It’s amazing what a little snack can do. We’ve all been there.

 

Heather  00:35

We’ll also discuss how life changes, such as new schools, moving houses, even a new sibling or pet in the home can really throw our children off course.

 

Kristina  00:45

So when our kids act out, we want to think, “Hmm, what’s really going on here?” And help check on some basics when we’re searching for clues.

 

Heather  00:55

We’ll talk about how having a solid support system in these moments is so crucial –  friends, family and professionals can offer insights we might not have thought of. 

Kristina  01:05

We’ll also talk about how empathy, patience and a little compassion for what our children are going through can make a world of difference. After all, we want our kids to feel secure and understood exactly. Let’s do this.

 

Heather  01:24

Welcome to “Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood!”

Kristina  01:27

A Podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boesma.

 

Heather  01:40

And I’m Heather Bouwman.Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  02:02

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  02:08

Are you ready?

 

Kristina  02:09

Let’s hit the trails. 

 

Heather  02:15

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:28

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives.  

 

Heather  02:36

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

Kristina, today, we are talking about being the detective in our own homes, and this is something that you and I actively did and still do as we’re raising our kids. We sure do, but when they were littler. It’s trickier because they don’t have as many words, and they maybe aren’t even verbal yet, right? You’ve had to unpack things with Grace long before she could speak. I did as well. 

 

Kristina  03:13

I often wished there was a control panel like on her back that I could open up and be like

 

Heather  03:18

A reset button?

 

Kristina  03:20

Yes, yes, with the reset button, or at least, you know, lights that would flash like “lack of sleep, code 4B7, and you go to the manual. “Oh, they’re getting sick.”

 

Heather  03:27

Yes, it doesn’t work like that, because it’s really tricky when we see behavioral changes and we wonder, “Why is this happening? Is this me? Is this them? Am I doing something? Am I off track as a parent? Is there something wrong with my child developmentally?” 

 

Kristina  03:53

Well and that’s where I think we go as parents, at least I did as a parent, very quickly to “there is something wrong,” there’s something wrong, and then that changes my behavior, which in turn changes the child’s behavior,

 

Heather  04:07

In response to your switches, right? 

 

Kristina  04:11

We’re like this ping pong going back and forth, and instead of really taking a breath and searching for the “why,” I’m just reacting. Or we as parents are just reacting many times out of a place of fear.

 

Heather  04:28

Yeah, we maybe tend to want to pathologize things a little too quickly.

 

Kristina  04:35

Well, Googling doesn’t help it. 

 

Heather  04:37

Oh my. Right. Oh, oftentimes it doesn’t. 

 

Kristina  04:40

No. no, not when we’re coming from that place of fear, fear, yeah.

 

Heather  04:44

And then we’re losing sleep, and then our anxiety is going up more. And like you said, ifour behavior changes, the behavior of the people around us naturally changes as well, because all of a sudden we’re off, and then that impacts them, and then they’re more off, right? And then we’re just in this reactive space with each other.

 

Kristina  05:04

One of the reasons that it’s important to me, and I know to you as well, to really talk about being the detective in your home and chasing that “why” is because every family goes through this. Every parent and caretaker of children will go through this, where there’s a shift in the child’s behavior, and there’s a space of saying, “What is happening? Why is it happening? And what do I need to do about it, right?” So being able to talk about some of the struggles that our children have and how we can help support them through that struggle is really about understanding what is happening, what is prompting this. As children develop, they will go through periods where things kind of line up and all click and they’re feeling confident in the skills that they have, and that’s beautiful. But as they move into a different space where they’re acquiring new skills, the terrain can get a little bumpy. It gets uncomfortable. It does. And so you see shifts in behavior. And I’ve said before, right? Children come into your life, and we have guilt and we have fear, and I was always worried that there was something that was seriously wrong, and lots of really typical behavior with children when they’re going through these times of acquiring new skills can look like things that we would clinically diagnose.

 

Heather  06:29

Absolutely. I remember learning that my boys had allergies and how that impacted not only their bodies and how their bodies felt. We live in the woods, and we have a lot of oak trees around us, and they’re black oak trees, and they’re they release a whole lot of stuff. And my kids would get like, almost like they looked uncomfortable in their body, like rolly shoulders, and when I looked closely like they did actually have some reactions on their backs and their skin, and it’s like us when we have a cold or maybe a sinus infection that impacts our behavior. And my kids were experiencing that. They were crabbier. They were just less tolerant. They didn’t feel good. But you know, there’s not a three year old in the world that can say, “Mommy, I’m all stuffed up. I got the allergies.” They just don’t talk like that, right? They’re just itching their eyes and trying to figure it all out, and they can’t breathe as well, maybe. And that journey for me was quite a journey to be like, “Oh, we got to get them some help, because they are not feeling well.”

 

Kristina  07:40

So when we talk about why it’s important to talk about this, it is because it happens to everybody. It’s because we worry about things like crazy as parents raising children in this world, and many times we fall into this place of it being really important to us that others view us as parents and our children as having it all together, right? So there can be this pressure to say, “Come on, act right. Act right vecause other people are going to think there’s something wrong with you,” or that I’ve really messed up as a parent. So that pressure to appear like we’ve got it all together, when maybe we don’t.

 

Heather  08:25

Nobody does.

 

Kristina  08:27

It’s all just smoke and mirrors, that’s what I figured out. Yeah. So let’s talk about, how do we do that? How do we chase the “why?” Where do we start? Maybe all of a sudden, they were a very easy going child, and all of a sudden they’ve started hitting or biting, and you think, “Oh, my word. What do we do with this?” So talk us through. We always say, you gotta first get back to the basics. 

 

Heather  08:55

Yes. Going back to the basics is what we want to naturally do when we’re in those moments of our breath is catching, maybe the temperature is rising, and we think, “what is happening here?” Don’t go to Google. Go back to your basics and think about: “How’s my attachment?” How’s the attachment with my child? Am I spending the same amount of time with them that I have been we talk about.I’m going to give you the –  I think there’s kind of like five  – so it’s attachment that we look at, and we’ll unpack that a bit more. How are they eating? What are we putting in their bodies? What are they taking in? What are they drinking? How much are they drinking sleep? How much sleep are they getting? How much deep, uninterrupted sleep, long stretches? Are they waking early? Are they going to bed at a good time? How long are those things taking, really taking a good look at sleep. Screen time is a big one. And man, oh man, do screens just seem to get more and more prevalent in our world and in our homes and in our families. Thinking about how old your children are, how much screen time is reasonable? What type of screen time that is makes a big difference. We’ll talk more specifically about that. Movement, just in general. How much movement are they getting how much quality time outside? What is their play like? Do they have time to play? Are they over-scheduled? Are they in a lot of extracurriculars that maybe aren’t getting them enough free play and imaginary play is it all just really scheduled? Let’s go back to attachment for a minute, okay, and talk about how paramount that is to children. It’s one of those foundational things we’ve said before. Attachment to primary caregivers for children surpasses even food and water in importance. And it truly does. And quality time is something that is so meaningful and necessary to them. We all have challenges. We all have things that are going to pull us from being able to be in our routines, in our home that are going to pull us from having some of that quality time with our children. Work travel could be one thing. That was one thing for my husband. He had to build in certain times with our children at certain parts of the day because of his schedule on the daily I was at home with our kids during that time. But I distinctly remember a time in my life where my grandparents, who were incredibly important to my husband and I and to our family in general, were both very ill, and there were extended hospital stays, and that took me who was the primary caregiver for my kids all day out of our home in these big chunks of time, and so I would be at the hospital with my family. I would be away, I’d probably miss bedtime, and they’d be out of their normal routine, and then maybe I’d be gone before they got up the next morning. And so it wasn’t the typical that they were used to. I have to know in those moments I’m going to see a behavioral shift. And I’m going to feel that too. I’m going to be more exhausted. Sometimes we can trick ourselves into thinking that children are mini adults, they’re not. I had high expectations for my kids. They were really, really good, capable, competent children, but they’re not miniature adults. And they don’t have their whole brain, right? They don’t have nearly as many tools and coping skills as I have as an adult. And so, of course, when I had those things happening in my life, I’m going to see behavioral changes in my kids, because their routine has now been pretty significantly altered for quite a few days in a row. And so I can expect they’re going to be more clingy. They’re going to be more needy when I’m there. I’m going to hear more whining. And I may have a much diminished capacity to deal with that. So , for me, in those moments, it’s saying to myself, “This is okay. This is a season. Probably a pretty short season in life. This isn’t gonna last forever, and we’ll get back to where we were. But why do all of these behaviors make sense right now?” And that’s something we encourage parents to ask themselves when they see a behavioral shift. And I asked a parent to do this one time, and  she was so frustrated with her darling, sweet little boy. And he, oh, he was such a spitfire. 

 

Kristina

I love those. 

 

Heather

Oh, I do too. They’re my favorite. He was such a spitfire and wildly hilarious. But she thought, “Oh, I’m gonna be really tired the rest of my life.” And she wasn’t wrong. I mean, it was gonna be some work to keep up. She was gonna be in really good physical shape. But when I said to her, “So think about all the reasons that his behavior makes sense,” she came back to me and kind of burst through the door in my office and was like “Heather, three pages. I have three pages of why this makes sense. And this activity was so powerful because I am seeing so much with what my son is going through.” They had traveled out of the country for the holidays, stayed with family, kind of in this one big, huge space all together. Over the holidays, there were like 12 or 15 people all in the same room. Mattresses thrown on floors. She’s like, “He had all of these loving, wonderful people around him. Then we came back to the States. He’s away from that extended family. He has to go back to sleeping in his room by himself.” She’s like, “It makes perfect sense, right?” It makes perfect sense. And she had all these other things on there, and that is a powerful thing for us to as a parent. In the midst of all of these behavioral changes, or even just one significant one that you see with your child, to say, “Why might this make perfect sense? I’m going to sit down and just think about that, right? Maybe jot these things down right?”

 

Kristina  15:54

And remembering all behavior is communication. So instead of leaping to “there’s something wrong with my kid. I think that I might be responsible. What are we going to do?” 

 

Heather  16:08

“I’m doing a terrible job, and I’m not a good parent. I’m not good at this,” right?

 

Kristina  16:11

Instead, taking that breath and saying, “Let me consider why this behavior makes perfect sense.” So when we think about how are the basics? Is there anything that needs tending? Do we need to look at sleep? Have we been over scheduled and looking at those things? That’s a great place to start. Have there been shifts in the family routine? We were fortunate enough growing up that my grandmother lived with us on and off many times over the years, and that was such a gift, and it disrupted the routine. I wouldn’t change it for the world, but being aware that some of those things shift the dynamics in the home. They absolutely do. I was very aware of it. My husband traveled a lot, especially when Grace was young. Well, he still does. But the shift that would occur when he left and when he returned. And you’d think, “But we’re just happy that he’s home.” Yes, we’re happy that he’s home and 

 

Heather  17:22

It’s another person back in the house to get used to. 

 

Kristina  17:25

We learned this, I mean, many, many years ago in grad school, that oftentimes the child is what we call the “symptom-bearer.”  So we look to a child whose behavior has shifted, and we think there’s something wrong with them. And, many times, that shift in behavior is simply alerting the family to there being a shift or change in the family. But because the others within the family either are responsible for the shift or, at the very least, have more coping skills to manage the shift or the change. You see the behavior crop up in the child, and too often, we focus on what’s wrong with the child, instead of saying, “Huh, what kinds of things have happened here in our lives, in our home, with our routine, with our schedule, that may be causing this behavior to emerge?” I recently was talking to a parent and her child had, oh, he’s an amazing kid, hilarious, bright, so curious and inquisitive, and he began to display behaviors that had been extinguished. So he had had a challenge with controlling his impulses. He liked to move through spaces, kind of like he was a jungle explorer, going through the vines and the plants and pushing them aside, but they were people and not plants. So he had learned a lot about how to move through spaces and how to embody the pause between stimulus, input and reactivity. So being able to have input and then pause so he could respond. Beautiful. Making tremendous gains. So, all of a sudden, we had a re-emergence of behaviors that had long been extinguished: hitting was back. Biting was back. Kicking was back. And the parent was deeply concerned and was like, “You know, we need to have a neuro-psych. We’ve got to get that kid evaluated. Can I get him in O.T.,  P.T., therapy? What are we going to do here? Does he need medication?” All these things. Because this is not how your child can go through the world. So there’s a lot of fear there. And when we sat down and thought about it, it was the case that a family member had become ill. And it doesn’t always take a lot. That member wasn’t even living within the home, but there was more energy going toward the care of the ill family member, less going toward the child. And so that attachment had been weakened. And I remember saying to the mom, “Okay, so it’s been three days of this re-emergence of behaviors. Three days. Let’s zoom back out and say he does have the skills. There’s something that’s keeping him from exhibiting those skills right now. So let’s chase the ‘why.’” And it was that there’s this ill family member. And, lo and behold, that was recognized, attention could be shifted back to that attachment, and the behaviors were no longer present. 

 

Heather  20:46

They were extinguished. Yeah, and that’s exactly what we mean when we say “behavior is communication.” His behavior was communicating what he couldn’t say with words. Children don’t just come up to us – it would be so great if they did, right? “Mommy, I really miss you. Could you just come sit with me because you’ve been taking care of so and so and I miss you?” Yeah. That’d be great. Yeah. No child ever in the history of the world has ever said that.

 

Kristina  21:12

No. They just bite you.

 

Heather  21:15

Which somehow attracts a very different response.

 

Kristina  21:18

It does. We don’t always respond to that with compassion in the moment as they’re locked onto our arm.

 

Heather  21:25

Exactly. So chasing the “why” in that case, you could walk that parent through that. And that was really wonderful, and it was figured out in a pretty short order. Some things take a little bit longer. Yes, I remember my little Luke, who I nursed for 364 days, when he got to 365 and it was his birthday, I set the sippy cup down on his high chair tray with cow’s milk, and he took a drink of that and looked at me in a way that said, “I’m not having this. What is happening here?” He looked at me like I had cheated on him, and I looked back at him like, “No, no, no, darling, that ship has sailed. Welcome to cow’s milk.” And we did this dance for a little bit. And eventually I realized after like, we’re gonna go 50/50, I’m not gonna nurse this child anymore. We’re done. And really being feeling like I made it. I did what I wanted to do, and now we’re moving on. And he was like, “No, we’re not, we’re not moving on,” right? So I was mixing the milk and putting it in the sippy, and lo and behold, this was my child who had a dairy allergy. So, it took a bit to figure that out. He was uncomfortable. But Luke was not my child that was very good at showing me his discomfort. He was the child that I could take to the doctor for his checkup at nine months, and she would be like, “Has he been eating well and sleeping well? Yeah, great. Well, he has a double ear infection. “Has he been behaving the same way?” I’m like, “Yeah.” Happy go lucky kid just didn’t communicate those things as readily as other children did. But when he defiantly decided he wasn’t going to drink cow’s milk, he knew something about himself that I didn’t. It upset his tummy. 

 

Kristina  23:27

And your response to that is wildly different if you think “this child is simply being defiant. They’re being stubborn and they need to get over themselves, because I am the parent.” Yeah, very different response than “What are they trying to tell me? Why would this behavior make perfect sense?”

 

Heather  23:46

Yes, we ended up on goat’s milk. I thought I was gonna have to buy one and milk it. Goat’s milk is expensive. 

 

Kristina  23:55

I can see you doing it, though. Yeah, if you needed to, that’s what you do.

 

Heather  24:00

I always did want a goat, and my husband said, “The first time I come home and that thing is standing on my truck, it’s not gonna end well for the goat.” I was like, “You know what? Let’s not go there. Let’s not find out how this story ends.” 

 

Kristina  24:22

I love it. So sometimes we see a shift in behavior because our child is ill, like you said about Luke and the allergy to dairy, and we just don’t know it yet, I know that you have – I love when you tell the story-

 

Heather  24:47

Yes, I have a family member who I love and adore, and is very near and dear to me, and she has a little one, and we’re very close, so she can call me and say things like, “I need your help. My child is demonic.” And I’m like, “Honey, your child is darling. She is just so sweet.” And she’s like, “She’s not. If you don’t believe me, come and spend some time with her.” And I will say, “What’s happening?” I don’t know. She just wants to argue with me about everything. She’s always my little helper. She’s my shadow. She loves to do the things and today she’s just contrary. Everything is a fight. Everything is just a disagreement. Everything and nothing at all is a disagreement. Like we just can’t get anything done. We can’t get to a place. She needs to be by her all the time. She’s so clingy. She’s never like this. How she’s sleeping? Not good. The last four nights, I’ve been up, like, four times in the night, and it’s been awful. Okay, how’s she eating? Huh? I haven’t, maybe, maybe not great. Okay, have you asked her for ears hurt? No. You always know that. How do you always know that? Like, well, three kids, they’ve all had ear troubles. The thing we talk about ear infections a lot on here, guys, the thing with ear infections is it takes fluid in the inner ear that has to develop and sit over some time before it actually becomes an infection. But for some kids, that fluid in the ear that’s enough to just be uncomfortable. It’s pressure, but then eventually, when that becomes infected. It sits like pond water, right? And eventually the bacteria grows in there, and it gets more uncomfortable. Those ear infections can take some time. And I think what I realized as a parent was, for children, it can be a really slow progression. And they can kind of adapt to that pain and maybe grow used to it a bit, and just they don’t know. They have no awareness of this isn’t normal. They just think, “Oh, everybody has ears that hurts, or everybody blah, blah, blah.” And I will say, as even a grown up, face pain is personality altering for children and adults. I think for children like they sometimes just don’t know where that pain is coming from, and it’s almost more like just an irritant, and then we have to look at their behavior. Because they’re responding like something is just an irritant, and so that’s where my sweet little family member was feeling like everything was a fight. Everything was a fight. And then she would call the doctor, take her, and she’s like, “Guess what? Double ear infection.” Yeah, she’s got the one little peanut, and she’s gotten to the point now where she her first thing always says, like, “ears.” “She’s a monster. Ears. We’re gonna get her ears checked.” And then she’ll get them checked. And she’s like, “Oh, no, it’s not her ears. Now what?” But it’s that journey of looking at, how is she sleeping? How did we figure that out? Right? I asked her, “How has her sleep been the last few nights? What’s her food intake been like. Is everything a fight? Is she able to be content and play on her own?” No, she’s super clingy. Major switch. This is a child who loves to play and can play for hours in her own worlds. So those are big behavioral shifts. So being able to say “something’s happening here, yeah, and it’s not that all of a sudden, overnight, she has just become this child who can’t endure or be away from her parent. There’s something happening, right?”

 

Kristina  28:52

I remember times when I’ve been ill, and I think this is common. I think many of us parents experience this when we’re ill. Wouldn’t it be lovely if the children were just really independent and quiet and compliant on those days. And yet I remember like being on the couch and thinking, “Oh, you are killing me today. I have no capacity. I’m so ill.” And yet, my child’s behavior is worse than it is on any other day.

 

Heather  29:25

Do you remember coming to my house where I was flat in bed? We had gone out for lunch the day before. You added something different than me. I had a salad.

 

Kristina  29:40

It was bad guys.

 

Heather  29:41

It was real bad. It was twleve hours of out one end and then twelve hours out the other. It was not pretty. No, it was like, it was ugly in there. And I called you, and do you remember? Travis was gone? And I called you because my mom, my own mother, was like “No thanks.” And I’m thinking, Ava was three. I’m thinking she’s probably cracking eggs on the kitchen floor. I have no idea. I couldn’t get out of bed. And if I did, it was like stuff was happening. 

 

Kristina  30:14

So I throw all caution to the wind. I remember going in in my hazmat suit.

 

Heather  30:21

So funny. I remember calling you and saying, “Please come and get my child.” And you were like, “I’m on my way right now. I’m coming. I’m on my way.” And then you got there, and you came in my bedroom, and you were like, “It’s bad.” And I was like, “Girl, get out of here.” I don’t think I knew at that point yet it was food poisoning. I was like, “Save yourself. Don’t breathe this air.” And you’re like, “Ava’s fine. There are no cracked eggs anywhere.” I don’t know what she was doing – eating a granola bar and watching Doc McStuffins probably. She was pretty independent. Third born. She was fine. But you brought her to your home. And we need to be able to call our people in those moments, because even when your mother won’t come to help you, that was a smart call. I mean, eventually we found out it was food poisoning and nobody else got sick. Yeah. I mean, that’s hilarious. It is hilarious. She’s gonna listen to that and be like, “Of course you had to say that.”

 

Kristina  31:24

Yeah. Well. So it’s a beautiful example, Heathe,  of how our village is so important. Having others along with us on this parenting journey, so that we can call them and say “S.O.S.” Big time. Mama down. We need help over here. Or my kid’s demonic today and have somebody say, “Okay, take a breath.” They’re darling, right? “Take a breath. Let’s think through some things.” It’s important to be able to have somebody you can contact who can help give you the voice of reason and not those people that are like, “They’re still using a passy? Hmm,” or like, “They’re not riding a bike yet?”We don’t need those kinds of voices.

 

Heather  32:13

And we’re not saying there aren’t times that children will push the boundaries. Oh man, they will. And sometimes that’s just a boundary push, but we’re talking about like 180 degree shifts in behavior that would cause a parent to say, “My child is acting demonic.” Oh, okay, well, that’s something more consistent than just saying “no” or being a challenging child in a moment on a boundary. 

 

Kristina  32:39

I remember a good friend, mother of two, and her youngest was in kindergarten, and all of a sudden he just started dropping trow, like at school repeatedly. And she called me really concerned, like “He can’t keep his pants up. Every time they turn around, he’s dropping his pants” and assuring her it just means that developmentally, this is where it is. And it’s a great time to start talking about things we do in private and things we do around other people. But that fear of “why in the world can my child not keep his business in his pants? He keeps dropping them all the time in public places.” So leaping to that, and instead being able to phone a friend and say, “I’m concerned about this. Talk me off the ledge. Or also being able to call a person in your village and have them say, “I think that would be a great conversation to have with your pediatrician.” Because we also need that for those of us who can be the deniers, like, “Oh, it’s not a big deal.” Or it was just like, “It’ll work itself out.” Yeah, it’s not a problem. It’s not a problem. We need the people in our lives who can also say, “I think you’re right. I think it’s going to work itself out. But I also think it would be wise to have this conversation with this particular person. I’ll say oftentimes, let’s just rule it out. Let’s just rule whatever we think might be happening out. And if so, that’s great. And if it ends up that, you know, your child is struggling, like you know mine did, or mine does with ADHD. Ah, okay. Let’s not shame or try to continue to correct this behavior, which she has no control over. And, at that age, not able to, you know, kind of build those skills. So we need both in our village, the people that can talk us off the ledge and the people that can give us sometimes the hard information of “I think it would be a good idea to make that call.”

 

Heather  34:47

And we’re all going to have changes in our lives that we can’t control, and those are going to have impacts on us, on our children, but being able to know that attachment is so important. That what we have going into our kids bodies can impact their behavior. And how much water they’re drinking, and what they’re drinking, if it’s juice, if it’s pop, all of that has an impact on behavior. And so being able to go back to those basics and really think through in the midst of changes. I think about as adults, like, what do they say? The biggest stressors in life are like a new home and a new job and maybe getting married or having a child. The same is true for our children. Like when we move homes, that’s a huge shift for children. Some people pack up and move to a whole new state and maybe don’t have their support extended family there. Yes, that’s a big shift for children. It’s a big shift for adults. So, if we feel that as adults, you can bet your kids are going to feel that as well. Also job switches for parents also are big things for children. It impacts their availability to you and the time that you get with them. New siblings. We get lots of questions about new siblings. And oftentimes we’ll hear “Now my oldest is acting like a baby.” Of course they are. Because they see that the baby needs you all the time and needs you to feed it and to put it to bed and to diaper and all of those things. So, all of a sudden, the oldest is like, “Oh, I don’t want to be nearly as independent.”

 

Kristina  36:37

No. And I always think too that the children who are already in the family, when that new infant or child arrives, they’re the ones that have to switch roles, right? Mom is still mom, dad is still dad. But those children, it’s like, “Oh, I’m not the I’m not the baby anymore. Now I’m the oldest.” They’re having to shift their role, and that’s a tremendous change.

 

Heather  37:01

I noticed with the birth of my second and my third is when everybody comes to visit, those grandparents, who normally are just, I mean, let’s face it, your parents don’t care about you anymore. Once you have children, they absolutely about the children, right? Like, “Oh, hi,” and they see those children, but for that oldest and all of a sudden there’s that baby, and that’s taking everybody’s attention. Those are the moments as a parent to snuggle in real tight to the other child, who’s used to being the center of grandma and grandpa, aunts’ and uncles’ attention, but this new baby is all the everything. And those are the moments to snuggle in with that other one and be like, “You’re such a great big brother” or “You’re such a great big sister.” And remind them of their place in the family and how important they are. And I always talked with my kids, too, about it can be hard when everybody wants to come and just see this new baby. They still love you so much. And you know what? Once they start squawking and need a diaper change, they hand them right back. And then you get all that attention again, because you’re the big kid, and you don’t do that anymore. Because new siblings is a huge thing. Other huge shifts: getting rid of the pacifier. 

 

Kristina  38:20

Oh boy. Uh huh. Yeah. My child is a thumb sucker. Yep. Which is a different thing. You can’t, like, nip the top off of that.

 

Heather  38:29

No, no! I did. I cut the end off that passy one day. And Zack got in his little crib and sat up and looked at it and pulled it out, and he called it his “taby,” and said, “My taby is broken.” And I said, “What do you think about that?” And he stuck it in. It had that little stump. And he was like, “I can do it. I can make it work.” And he did for a little bit, and then it just went away. And then it was so funny, like, a month later, he found one, because kids stash them all everywhere, right? He found one, like in the ficus tree, in the base of it, and pulled it out and looked at it like, “I feel like I know you, but I don’t really know you.” And I was like, “We’re not going back to that.” Potty training is another big transitional time, and that’s an important piece. When kids make these big developmental leaps, they can feel like their ship isn’t steady, and so that’s when we as parents can come in and steady the ship and be the reminder of “It’s gonna pass. It feels a little different now. We’re gonna get through this. You’ve got this, I’ve got you.” Those reminders to kids, I think, are really powerful to be able to say, “You’re doing great. It’s okay. This is normal. “Normalizing some of that discomfort, I think, helps them calm down. And the fact that we can own that “we’ve got you” helps. 

 

Kristina  40:00

You know, I’ve spoken about the calendar I kept when Grace was younger, the first, I don’t know, six, seven, eight years of her life, where I would keep track of her sleep, because she struggles with sleep. And I would also keep track of these times of altered behavior, partly because I’m chasing the “why,” and partly because I, just again, needed something to bear witness. Because sometimes, in the midst of it, it feels like this has been going on forever and it’s never going to end. And those calendars, I still have them to be able to look through and say, “Yeah, that was a hard stretch, and it lasted for eleven days. And then that stretch was over, and things were resettled again, and we were back to a good place,” to not get lost in the midst of the tricky and the hard, but to be able to say, “Yep, acknowledge what it is. This is what it is.” Get back to checking your basics, phone a friend, take a breath and be able to remind yourself this is part of the journey. The terrain is tricky sometimes, and yet, with those things, being the detective chasing the “why,” considering why this behavior makes perfect sense is going to put you in a much better position. We as parents are in a much better position when we have those things to consider instead of, “Oh my god, is this who my child is and there’s something seriously wrong with them, and don’t let anybody else find out about it, because I need everyone to believe that we’re the perfect family.”

 

Heather  41:48

One thing that we didn’t talk about, that we probably should is when our kids get sick, it’s mandatory downtime, right? You have a child that’s sick, so all of a sudden there’s no more evening activities. You’re more home. You’re with them. You’re maybe holding them. They’re getting all of this sweet cuddles. And of course, they love that. We all love that. And then when they get better, they’re not as independent and aren’t as able to go to bed well, because, of course, they want you there, right? And as a parent, then we’ve maybe missed work, we’ve stayed home, we’ve been up in the night with them because they’re not well. We’re maybe depleted and tired, and then we get them through it, and now maybe we’re getting sick, right? The beautiful gift that keeps on going. In a family of five, that illness can take a while to pass on.

 

Kristina  42:45

Cycle through. Cycle through the family. 

 

Heather  42:49

And so it becomes this challenge of, “Oh, they’re better now, why can’t they just go back well?” Because they settled in to all that closeness. And if we can remember that, we just have to draw it back. It’s going to take a little bit, and you can lessen it gradually. And you can also say to them, “And now mommy’s sick or daddy’s sick, and I need to go take care of myself, and I’m going to put you to bed,” and you can set boundaries around that stuff, but knowing on the front end, “Yep, it’s just the way it goes for all of us is those kids want us, and they want to be there with us, and after they’ve been ill, it’s really common and really normal, and you’ll get back there, and it’s okay if it takes a little bit of time.” Yep, it’s good thing to be mindful of, because it can be real frustrating, especially if you’re getting ill yourself and you just want to go to bed.

 

Kristina  43:48

Grace already, when she was two years old, would say, “messin.” Messin. I was like, :You want medicine? I mean, you’re perfectly fine.” Messin. Then I thought, ‘Well, it probably isn’t wise to listen to your two year old about when they want drugs.” So I would ignore it. But I learned that she knew when she was getting sick. Dollars to donuts the next day it would be, “Oh for crying out loud, she’s got a fever.” Yep, she knew she was getting sick before I knew she was getting sick. So I did learn to listen to my two year old, and when she said, “messin.”

 

Heather  44:26

It’s so funny. I remember thinking as a parent, “Oh, I just wish they could tell me.” And then when they do, we’re like, “No. How could they possibly know?”

 

Kristina  44:36

How could they possibly know-

 

Heather  44:38

Our wish came true. 

 

Kristina  44:41

And then we still, and that’s a difference in people. It’s a difference in children as well. Some of us are very aware of what’s happening inside our body. You’re one of those people. I’m the person that I just -oh, girl, no idea – 

 

Heather  44:54

That’s a whole different episode. And that one’s about grown ups.

 

Kristina  45:00

Yeah, so when we talk about getting back to the basics, these are the things we’re talking about. We’re talking about attachment and connection. We’re talking about how we fill our days and our schedule.

 

Heather  45:10

We’re talking about what we put in our bodies. We’re talking about how much sleep is the child getting.

 

Kristina  45:17

We think about how much time we’re spending out in nature.

 

Heather  45:21

And how much time we’re spending in front of a screen, as that impacts behavior hugely.

 

Kristina  45:31

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina-

 

Heather  45:37

and I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  45:42

Until next time –

 

Kristina and Heather 45:44

See you on the trails.

 

Kristina  45:48

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  45:59

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan. 

 

Kristina  46:07

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  46:20

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature to learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 4: Temperament Theory As A Parenting Tool, Part 2

Clinical social workers Kristina and Heather continue their conversation discussing David Keirsey’s temperament theory as a parenting tool, focusing on two of the four temperaments: Idealists and Rationals.

Idealists are imaginative, empathetic, and intuitive, and often misunderstood due to their abstract thinking. They emphasize personal growth, have strong intuition, and are deeply connected to others’ feelings. Idealists adults find setting boundaries to be a challenge, whereas differentiating between reality and fantasy is a challenge for idealist children.  

Rationals, making up 10% of the population, are logical, strategic, and independent. They value knowledge and intellectual debate. Parenting these children requires understanding their unique needs and fostering their intellectual curiosity. A Rational child will benefit from being given more information and a chance to understand the reasons behind rules, boundaries, and expectations.

“Understanding temperaments just helps us have more empathy. It helps increase our understanding, which then increases our joy and our ability to be able to connect to, to motivate, to respond to, to pause and remind ourselves, “Oh, I tend to react this way, but they tend to see things this way.” It’s a deeper understanding. And what we know is: knowledge is power, and if we can use that knowledge in our homes, with our children, with our spouses, man, does it make the journey so much more enjoyable.”

 

Understanding Idealists in Parenting

  • Kristina describes Idealists as imaginative, romantic, authentic, and extremely intuitive, emphasizing their sensitivity and relational nature.
  • Heather shares personal anecdotes about her and Kristina’s Idealist children, highlighting their imaginative play and sensitivity.
  • Kristina discusses the intense emotions and deep connections Idealists have, including the need for a soulful connection in relationships.

 

Challenges of Co-Parenting with Idealists

  • Kristina and Heather talk about the differences in their spouses’ perspectives on intimacy and connection, illustrating the communication gap between Idealists and other temperaments.
  • Heather shares her experience of having to learn to communicate effectively with her husband, who is not an Idealist.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of creative outlets for Idealists to maintain their emotional well-being.
  • Heather recounts her personal journey into photography as a creative outlet during her time at home with her children.

 

Empathy and Boundaries in Idealist Children

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the empathetic nature of Idealist children and the challenges they face in setting boundaries.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter Grace’s response to being excluded by classmates, highlighting her empathetic but naive actions.
  • Heather emphasizes the importance of teaching Idealist children to set boundaries and use their empathy constructively.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the unique challenges Idealist children face in understanding the difference between reality and fantasy.

 

The Role of Intuition in Idealists

  • Kristina and Heather talk about the strong intuition and empathy of Idealists, which can sometimes lead to misunderstandings.
  • Kristina shares a personal experience of trusting her intuition about a person, which was later validated.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges Idealists face in being understood by others due to their abstract thinking and strong emotions.
  • Kristina highlights the importance of Idealists feeling unconditionally loved and accepted by their parents.

 

Idealists in Relationships and Professions

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the unique needs and desires of Idealists in relationships, emphasizing the search for a soulmate connection.
  • Kristina shares her personal experience of wanting a deeper connection with her husband, who is not an Idealist.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of understanding and valuing the unique qualities of Idealists in relationships.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the professional fields Idealists often choose, such as counseling and helping professions, due to their passion for personal growth and supporting others.

 

Supporting Idealist Children

  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the need for parents to understand and protect Idealist children from the challenges they face.
  • Kristina shares a story about her daughter Grace’s emotional response when they sold their car, illustrating the deep connections Idealist children have.
  • Heather discusses the importance of recognizing and supporting Idealist children’s unique needs and perspectives.
  • Kristina and Heather highlight the challenges Idealist children face in understanding the difference between reality and fantasy, and the importance of setting boundaries.

 

The Role of Intuition and Empathy in Idealists

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the strong intuition and empathy of Idealists, which can sometimes lead to misunderstandings.
  • Kristina shares a personal experience of trusting her intuition about a person, which was later validated.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges Idealists face in being understood by others due to their abstract thinking and strong emotions.
  • Kristina highlights the importance of Idealists feeling unconditionally loved and accepted by their parents.

 

Heather and Kristina share some ways parents can help Idealist children navigate the challenges of setting boundaries and understanding reality vs. fantasy: 

  • Validate their strong emotions and empathy, but also teach them how to set healthy boundaries. Help them understand it’s okay to say no or take a break from intense feelings.
  • Gently guide them when they are having trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy. Acknowledge their imaginative play, but also reinforce what is real. Use concrete examples to illustrate the difference.
  • Provide unconditional love and acceptance. Idealist children need to feel fully accepted for who they are, even when their behaviors or perceptions differ from others.
  • Role-play social situations and practice assertive communication. This can help Idealist children learn to advocate for themselves while still being considerate of others.
  • Encourage them to share their feelings, but also model how to express emotions in a balanced way. Idealists can learn to articulate their needs without overwhelming others.

 

Key takeaway: balance empathy, validation, and boundary-setting to help Idealist children thrive. With patience and understanding, parents can nurture their child’s strengths while also building essential life skills.

 

Understanding Rationals In Parenting

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the final of the four temperaments: Rationals, who make up about 10% of the population. 
  • Unlike the more common Guardians,  Rationals are known for their logical, strategic thinking and independence. 
  • Rationals plan meticulously and expect efficiency, often feeling frustrated by disorganization or emotional responses from others.

 

Rationals In Relationships

  • Heather and Kristina discuss how Rationals prioritize intellectual connections and debates in relationships, seeking partners who can match their level of intelligence. 
  • They discuss how sometimes Rationals appear to lack empathy, viewing situations logically rather than emotionally. This can create tension, especially when paired with more emotionally-driven personality types like “Idealists.”
  •  In educational settings, Rationals may challenge authority and prefer logical reasoning over positional power, which can lead to misunderstandings. 
  • Rationals thrive in environments that stimulate their intellect and creativity, often excelling in fields like engineering or technology.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss how understanding the traits of Rationals helps parents and educators better support Rational children, fostering their strengths while accommodating their unique perspectives. 

 

Listen to Heather and Kristina discuss the other two of the four main temperaments: Guardians and Artisans in Episode 3!

 

Further Reading :

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

 

 Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

 The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 4: Temperament Theory As A Parenting Tool, Part 2

 

Kristina  00:00

In this episode, we’ll build upon our discussion of David Keirsey’s temperament theory.

 

Heather  00:04

We’ll share our experiences using temperament theory as a parenting tool, and explore two more of the temperaments, Idealists and Rationals. 

 

Kristina  00:12

Understanding these temperaments can help us improve our parenting by allowing us to tailor our approach to each child’s individual needs.

 

Heather  00:21

We’ll explore the dynamics unique to each temperament and how understanding each type helps us show up with more empathy and joy as we support and grow our children. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood!


Kristina  00:38

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  00:52

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world. 

 

Kristina  01:14

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather  01:20

Are you ready?

 

Kristina  01:20

Let’s hit the trails. So let’s talk about Idealists. Some words that come to mind when you think of an Idealist are: imaginative, romantic, authentic, extremely intuitive. They are kind-hearted and empathetic. They’re sensitive, very relational, and can be great diplomats. They’re very diplomatic. Idealists are the fanciful, and they love to use their imagination. They like to dream about what is possible, and they live in that world. They’re not as aware of what they necessarily can see, touch, taste, hear, in reality, but they love fantasy and thinking about what could possibly be. So Heather and I both have Idealist children. They’re the ones that would have all those little figurines and create these whole communities, and they all had backstories and very real feelings, because they love living in that imaginary world.

 

Heather  02:37

And they just loved the little figurine. I don’t know what that was,  but they stay there a long time, and they create entire communities, which is really what it always was. There were entire groups of people, and then those people had villages and animals and pets and a vet. And, I mean, it was amazing to really see, but they never want to pick it up, because it goes on. Their play goes on, and they stay in that play for a really long time. At some point you got to get the community out of the kitchen.

 

Kristina  03:13

So Idealists, again, living in that fantasy world, they are very tender hearted. They have very strong feelings, and they pride themselves on being loving and authentic. They can be really intense mates. If you co parent with somebody that’s an Idealist, that can be pretty intense. I’ll say to my husband that I just want to be closer. I just want to, like, I want us to be closer. And he says, “I have no idea what you are talking about. We are as close as two people can be.” But I want, like, I want a soulful connection. 

 

Heather  03:54

Yeah, you’re talking about intimacy. And Vince is like, moving shoulder to shoulder with you, like,” I don’t know how to…should I sit on your lap?”

 

Kristina  04:04

We could not be physically closer. He doesn’t. That’s not the closeness I’m talking about when I say those kinds of things. 

 

Heather  04:11

It’s almost like a different language. And my husband, Travis, and I run into this, and I had to learn that I had to say to him, because I am a dreamer in some, well, in probably lots of ways, but I like – not a dreamer in the not reality type of way. But I like to have vision. And then I like to plan to make those things come to fruition. He likes a plan. He doesn’t like the dream it up part so much, because Idealists have this need. I think you and I, probably why we’re doing this podcast is, as professionals, we have to have this creative outlet. Otherwise our light goes dim. Wouldn’t you agree? I think that’s just, there’s this we have to kind of have this creative flame burning all the time. And when I was home with my kids for a stint, it’s why I, all of a sudden, went into photography and these different things. We live in a rural farm country area, and I’ve told the story about how we will drive past a field, and I was raised in a farm community, and my grandpa had property, and so I grew up very much running through a pasture, and so I will look out the window as my husband and I are driving by and be like, “Oh, I just love how that field is plowed up and it’s going to be planted and in no time, it’s going to be green.” And he just kind of looks at me like, “It’s all very lovely Anne of Green Gables,” because he he’s like, “It’s dirt, right? Like, I see dirt.” Yeah, but I look at how it’s plowed in the linear nature, and I appreciate it, like when they take their curves and they’re all in a line, and then that all grows so beautifully. And he’s like, like, that is a different language. Completely different language. 

 

Kristina  05:59

And what it is is that your husband, as a Guardian, speaks literally. And Idealists-

 

Heather  06:08

Speak figuratively. Yes, and I’m laughing because I speak in metaphors all the time.

 

Kristina  06:12

All the time. We would much rather tell a story than using this content.

 

Heather  06:19

And I think it’s because I realize people understand me when I do that, because otherwise they think I’m Anne of Green Gables. I don’t know, right? I think that’s how I’ve learned like this is how people better understand what I’m trying to communicate.

 

Kristina  06:32

Yep. The natural tendency is to use abstract language, abstract concepts. That’s where the Idealist likes to live. Idealists are passionately concerned with personal growth. They always want to better themselves, right?

 

Heather  06:50

Oh, yeah. And I feel like sometimes in our work environment, that’s what trips me up, is I think everybody’s like that, and they’re not.

 

Kristina  06:59

Idealists have very strong intuition, and they trust their intuition, because over time, they’ve known it to be pretty accurate. It’s like they have a sixth sense, and they can resonate on a little different level.

 

Heather  07:14

We notice things that other people simply don’t notice.

 

Kristina  07:18

That aren’t visible. So you get senses of people. Idealist children are very empathetic, as are the adults. Like adults will tell them things, because they’re really good listeners, and they’re very empathetic, and they feel the feelings of people around them. 

 

Heather  07:38

They feel the energy around them, and that can manifest physically within them. 

 

Kristina  07:44

Yeah. Lots of tummy aches for children. It could be that an Idealist child was at school and the teacher spoke in a stern way to another student, but it made the Idealist feel the feelings of discomfort that the student was feeling, of feeling the disappointment, or whatever the teacher was feeling. They pick all of that up. So they’re like this little feeling sponge. If there’s tension in the home, Idealists will feel it. They want harmony. They want people to get along. They will oftentimes put aside whatever it is that they want.

 

Heather  08:24

They will give too freely of themselves and their own desires.

 

Kristina  08:28

And because they believe so passionately in the potential of people and in growing people, they can be the individuals who end up in relationships where they’re not treated well because they believe in the best part of people.

 

Heather  08:44

So this goes back to that. I’m gonna say my husband’s notion at the beginning of how we just parent the children all the same. This is my Luke, and this is your Grace. These Idealist children, they needed to be taught some really specific skills to protect themselves. You talk about how Grace was really trying to grow the skill set when some girls were being unkind to her at school and just had all this empathy, but really no boundary with them.

 

Kristina  09:18

Oh, right. So my beautiful daughter was in first grade, and there was a little girl in her class who, unbeknownst to Grace, had shared with the other kids like, “Let’s not play with Grace today at recess,” Grace didn’t know anything about that. “Let’s run from her,” Right.  So they went out to recess, and sure enough, the kids are all running away from Grace, and she just thinks they’re playing a game of chase, and she’s not very fast. So she doesn’t realize what’s happening here. Here I’ve just talked about how intuitive kids are, but she was in first grade and didn’t really understand what was happening, didn’t know, couldn’t imagine that there was any malicious thought, and they’re first graders. Was it malicious? I don’t know. When I found out about it, I was like, “Bring me the child.” Because somebody had really hurt my kid. So-

 

Heather  10:05

The one time I’d be allowed to cut through the unauthorized as if I was picking you up and we were going to get her.

 

Kristina  10:12

I would allow it then. That’s right, that’s right. That’s your “mama bear.” And your “mama bear” does lots of things you wouldn’t normally do. So Grace didn’t get it. So the little girl came to her and said, “We don’t want to play with you. I told everybody not to play with you, and so we were trying to run away from you.” Because Grace hadn’t really understood that. So Grace came home from school, and she’s at the table and she’s working on, you know, a piece of paper. She’s got her crayons out and her markers out and things like that. And I said, “Hey, whatcha up to?” And she said, “I’m making a card for this little girl,” let’s just call her, “Penelope.” “I’m making a card for Penelope.” I said, “Oh, that’s so nice.” And she said, “Yeah, she told the other kids not to play with me, and they all ran away from me. And so I’m thinking, mom, she must have a really sad heart, because why would you do that? So I just want to make her feel better.” And I’m thinking, “Make her feel better? I will make her feel something. And it is not better.” So Grace brought the card in, gave it to Penelope. Penelope looks at it and says, “This is garbage,” and throws it away. So what does Grace do? She needs to make another card. So we had to have conversations about how sometimes that is exactly what we want to do, right? Provide that empathy. There are other times that it’s okay to say that was that was her fault, right? It was unkind. And it doesn’t mean that it’s a bad person. Penelope is not a bad person, but whatever she was working out was unkind toward Grace. 

 

Heather  11:47

A great moment to have Grace be aware that she can use her big voice and that child gets to feel how they need to feel about it, but the boundary that Grace is gonna set for herself is,”I don’t like it when you tell everybody to run away from me. Next time come talk to me if you don’t want to play with me.” 

 

Kristina  12:11

Yep. So, those little Idealists, so empathetic, very authentic, they would not dream of misrepresenting themselves. They crave authenticity in others. They look for signs and symbols all over the place. Idealists tend to be the most spiritual. That doesn’t mean that they are necessarily the most religious.

 

Heather  12:35

Yes, they connect spiritually at a different level.

 

Kristina  12:39

Yep, and they seek deep, deep meaning in relationships and in the world around them. Idealists are about 15% of the population, so there are not a lot of them, right? And they know that they’re different, and they kind of like that they’re unique, but they go through life feeling misunderstood a lot, because they are so abstract, because they are such big thinkers, and because they feel so strongly. They may be in a family or in a room where nobody else is feeling it as strongly as they are, or the things they pick up about a person, that they sense from a person, nobody else senses. I remember being in a situation where I met somebody and my insides felt yucky, which is what I feel when I meet somebody who maybe has some motives that I don’t value or respect or somebody that diminishes other people. I don’t like that kind of thing. And I hadn’t really even met this person to interact with them, but I could sense it. Nobody else could sense it, but I could sense it. So you feel misunderstood. It’s like, “Yeah, this person, this is not a good fit. This is going to lead to trouble.” And people that aren’t Idealists are like, “What are you talking about? They must remind you of like a mean professor along the way, or something.” And it’s like, “Nope, I’ve learned to trust my intuition.” And that indeed did come to fruition, that that is who the person was.

 

Heather  14:19

And if people don’t have that skill. They don’t understand it. And we get dismissed a lot in that way, of like, “Oh, they just think…” and then nine months later it’s like, “Oh, imagine that! Huh.” And it’s not that we have any sort of ability to predict what could happen. But it is an awareness of something’s off there. We just notice things that other people don’t or get a sense of something. And that’s not just us. That’s just an Idealist characteristic that’s really strong within them.

 

Kristina  14:53

Idealists love working with people. They go into fields like we did. We’re therapists. They go into counseling. They go into these helping professions because they really believe in the growth and supporting the growth of other individuals. They tend to be pretty gifted in languages, both written and, you know, verbal communication. They’re good communicators, and it’s different than the other temperaments are. This is, I think, an interesting thing about Idealists: if they’re using a tool or some other item, they are less concerned about how they feel about it, and they are very concerned about how their use of that tool or that item impacts others. They are very aware of the things that they do and say and the impact it has on the people around them, very aware of that, and like we had said earlier, will just ignore their own desires or their own wishes in lieu of meeting the wish or desire of somebody else. And they feel very strongly in every direction. Idealists say things like, “That was hilarious.” It’s not “funny.” It’s “hilarious,” right? I wasn’t just “angry” or “mad.” I was “furious.” They have- they use intense language because they feel things so intensely.

 

Heather  16:18

So in a relationship, they tend to want a soulmate. And they tend to be very nurturing parents and inspirational leaders where they are typically.

 

Kristina  16:29

In relationships with a partner or a spouse, Guardians are looking for a help mate, because they like to be helpful. Artisans are looking for a play mate, not the Hugh Hefner kind, but like somebody that can have fun and be free and go on all their adventures. And Idealists are looking for a soul mate. They want that soul connection. It’s when I say to Vince, “I want to know you better. I want you to know me better, and for us to be closer.” He’s like, “I do not know what you are talking about, woman. We are as close as we can be. And I’m thinking, “No, I want that soul connection.” So Idealists are a unique little temperament. I say unique because there just aren’t as many of them, and they are acutely aware of the feelings and the energy of people around them-

 

Heather  17:21

in the room, from very young ages. 

 

Kristina  17:26

So when you have an Idealist child, there are a number of things to be aware of. First of all, they are not being overly dramatic. They just feel it that intensely. Now you can have somebody that is overly dramatic, right? But especially Idealist children, they really feel it. I mean Grace, when we got a new car, the car that we had when she was born, the white car, she was so attached to that car that when we got a new car, she grieved that we didn’t have the white car anymore. It would never be the same. I mean, the music we’d listen to in the white car, even though it was exactly the same music that we listened to in the gray car, it just wasn’t going to be the same. So Idealist children form really close connections to things and to the people around them. Idealist children are, oh, this is a tricky thing. They’re the most likely to have an imaginary friend, because they have a very, very rich imagination and fantasy life. So they have imaginary friends and they become real to them. So Idealist children are the last to figure out the difference between reality and fantasy, so they can be accused of lying when they really aren’t. They don’t know that that’s not real because it’s so real to them. Guardians aren’t gonna lie because it’s not the right thing to do. Can

 

Heather  18:59

Can I give an example? So I’m thinking of Zack’s best friend for many years. Still is to this day, he was just at our house on Saturday, darling, darling boy. My best friend from high school, her son. They grew up together. They just have had a ball. And it has been so much fun watching those two come into the world, really two months apart, and grow all the way up through young adulthood. Now they’ll be in each other’s weddings. This is just what their life has been like. This young man is an Idealist, and he is just a sweetheart. My son is a Guardian. And I remember dropping Zack off to play with him. And they were probably ten or eleven, and Zack kind of like shrinking down in the passenger seat, and me saying, “Honey, what’s the matter? Are you excited to play?” He’s like, “Yeah, he’s wearing this cape again.” And he could see him behind the tree, and he had his cape on. And I said, “Oh.” And he’s like, “You know, he still likes to play like that, and I would rather like ride quads, or our bikes…” and he just was in that imaginary land longer. And he was a child in the second grade, at parent teacher conferences, had convinced his teacher he had a whole other family, like that they lived on the shores of Lake Michigan. That this was his other family. He had all of these siblings. The teacher was like, “So like, are you divorced? Are you two like, who lives in the home on Lake Michigan?” And his parents were like, “What?” And the teacher was like, “You know, like with the other kids? And they were like “What?” And then it came out that he had created this whole other family and this whole other house with all of these siblings. I mean, he wasn’t lying, per se. There’s an argument. Should he have maybe known better at seven or eight years old, but it was what he created based on who he is, and he wasn’t doing it with the intention of, “Oh, I’m gonna string my teachers along and tell them these big lies.” That wasn’t it at all. He had, if anything, brought them into his world that he had created probably much because he felt safe and loved. And there’s the difference. It can feel very much like there’s just a lot of feelings, and that there’s a lot and all that doesn’t need to be such a big deal. You’re making that such a big deal. Or why did you tell your teacher that? And really, it’s just these beautiful lands, fairytale lands, that they can create and will bring you into. And I would argue that he loved his teachers and brought them into his world. 

 

Kristina  21:57

Yep, and it wasn’t because he had an unhappy home. He wasn’t creating something-

 

Heather  22:02

Or that didn’t lie and trick them. There was no ill intent whatsoever.

 

Kristina  22:08

The thing an Idealist will lie about, quote, unquote “lie.” Well, this is, really, is to save somebody from harm or from punishment. They just want everybody to have this harmony. So they may say things. They’re very diplomatic. They may say things to change the mood or the trajectory of an exchange to make everybody happy. They may do that-

 

Heather  22:34

Soften the blow. Bring the humor. Lighten things up. 

 

Kristina  22:38

Yep. So my daughter Grace, the Idealist. Idealists tend to be very self-aware, because they have that intuition, and they’re connected so well to their feelings. If we’re reading a book together, or if we’re going to watch a movie, she will say, sometimes, “I just don’t want to feel those feelings right now.” I mean, we don’t go to a movie that she’s not sobbing at, sobbing at, because she connects so much with others, real or not. So she can say, “I just don’t want to feel those feelings right now. II can’t go that deep. I can’t do it.” And Idealists, many times, carry the feelings of other people, and you need to work as you get older and figuring out how to separate yourself from the feelings of everybody around you. For Idealist children, more than any other temperament, they have to know that they are loved unconditionally and that their parents accept them for who they are, for how they feel, for how they view the world. That’s really, really important to the Idealist child. If you are upset with an Idealist child, you can talk to them about it. But if you raise your voice, if you get punitive in, you know, how you’re going to punish or discipline a child, that deeply affects the heart of an Idealist, because there’s this disconnect right now. It’s like “me against you,” and they don’t like that at all. Idealists like cooperative games. They don’t prefer to be real competitive about things. It’s not that they don’t like it when they win, but they aren’t the kids that are, you know, really like, “Oh, I want to, like, dang, I, you know, sorry I lost.” They’re not those kids. They’re much more about the experience and have camaraderie. Camaraderie in the moment. So Idealists, especially young ones, need some protecting. They need protecting from the others in the world of different temperaments who just don’t understand how tender those little hearts are.

 

Heather  24:54

My Luke is an Idealist, and I think about him going through his first breakup. And they aren’t ever going to impose into your time. I’m his mother. He knows that I love him dearly and that I would set anything aside for him, and yet he like, “Is she busy? Is she doing-“ He’s also the kid that when he’d be home sick from school, “Honey, what sounds good to you? Is there something that you’d like me to make you?” “What sounds good to you, mom?” “Okay, Luke? You’re the one with the tummy ache. Like what sounds good to you?” “ Is a grilled cheese too much work?” I’m like, “Son. Yeah, for your birthday, I make you homemade key lime pie, where I, like, legitimately squeeze the limes and, like, what do they call that? When you, like, grate the-

 

Kristina  25:48

The zest, the zest-

 

Heather  25:50

Like I zest the key limes and, like, grilled cheese, it’s buttered bread with cheese that melts. It’s not a big ask.  So it’s that type of thing where you need, as a parent, when you have an Idealist child, to also key into behavioral shifts in them. Like, what’s doing? Because they aren’t going to impose on anyone. And that’s part of that, just sacrificing too much of themselves for harmony. So, when Luke peaks in my bedroom, and I’m still in bed on a Saturday morning. And it’s odd for him to ever get up before me, especially on a weekend. And he peeks in, which, 17 year old boys don’t peek in on their mother’s bedrooms often. So I’m like, “Okay, this is weird.” And I say, “Luke, I’m awake. What’s up?” And then he comes in and shares that, you know, he and his girlfriend broke up. And then we go into that more. But if I hadn’t taken that extra step to inquire about- All he did was peek in the room.

 

Kristina  27:01

Right. And to invite him in-

 

Heather  27:03

Yes, and say, you know, “Come hang out with me.” So, you know, it’s just you gotta “chase the why”

 

Kristina  27:11

Yeah. And those Idealists, they don’t want to impose on people. 

 

Heather  27:15

No. Absolutely. Kristina, let’s go back to the moving day analogy and walk through. I said Guardians are going to show up. Rain or shine, the Guardians are going to be there. They’re going to help you move. They’re going to be in it. They’re going to be hauling, loading, moving the couch by themselves, figuring it out. Through the smallest doorway, that’s the Guardians. They figure it out. They show up. There they are, no matter what. The Artisans, on the other hand, if it’s a nice day, they’re going to be at the beach. If it’s a rainy day, they’re going to be like, “no.”

 

Kristina  28:00

Well, they probably forgot that it was even that day. And if they do come, they’ll come, like, four hours late and bring the beer, and it’s like, “Hey, Oh, you guys are all done!”

 

Heather  28:12

“Yeah, we’re almost done. Last couch just got loaded.” “Sweet.”

 

Kristina  28:15

But when they do show up, if they show up, it’s gonna be- The party starts. It’ll be a whole lot more fun. And we’re gonna be laughing. So maybe showing up late in the day isn’t such a bad thing. They can bring the energy.

 

Heather  28:25

And the Idealists, what are the Idealists doing?

 

Kristina  28:29

The Idealists are going to-they’re going to show up because they said they were going to do it, and they want to follow through on that, but they’re going to be talking about what the experience is like. So what does this move mean to you? What are the things that you’re going to always remember about this house? This house has so many memories in it. And they may be telling stories about, “Oh, I’ll never forget when we sat in your kitchen and we were having tea and you broke that cup. Remember? Oh yeah, that was really hard. I know you loved that cup.” They are going to be talking about the feelings of the experience and the meaning that it has, about where you’re leaving and where you’re going. So there’s going to be lots of conversation. They are not the like, box it and lug it. Those are your Guardians who are like, box it up and let’s go. The Idealists, when packing to move, everything has meaning. So hard to let anything go-

 

Heather  29:29

So hard to leave this behind. And we have to go dig up those landscape pavers with the kids’ hands-

 

Kristina  29:37

Oh, of course. How could you leave that? I need to get the whole sidewalk up, because we have Grace’s hands in the sidewalk.

 

Heather  29:45

I’m not helping you move ever.

 

Kristina  29:48

I don’t think we possibly could, because of so much stuff. So yeah, Idealists are more

connected into that meaning and the feelings behind it. And then we have our final 

temperament type, and those are the Rationals. So Rationals make up about 10% of the 

population, so they aren’t nearly as common as those Guardians. They’re everywhere, lots of 

Artisans, some Idealists, and then those precious Rationals. So, on moving day, the Rational 

will come and already have an entire system designed for how to do this the most effectively 

and the most efficiently. And they know exactly how those things need to go. 

 

Heather  30:30

They have mapped the U haul. Yes, they know how large it is. They have a diagram. The

couch is going here. The boxes will go here.

 

Kristina  30:38

Yep, this is how we need to pack it to be the most efficient that we can. This is the system

we’re going to use for getting things out of the house and into the moving van. And they will 

be quite disappointed if you haven’t labeled every box with what it contains and where it’s going. 

 

Heather  30:54

And they are right. I mean, they’re right, and The Guardian is going to be like, “Where

did you come from?” 

 

Kristina  31:04

Yeah. So here are some words that describe those precious Rationals. They are calm. They are 

innovative. They’re ingenious, extremely logical, very curious. They pride themselves on their 

independence. They are strategic and pragmatic, and they love a system. So Rationals are 

very much the people that live in their head. They, in looking for a mate, we said this before, 

or a co-parent, or somebody to be in a relationship with, they’re looking for a mind mate. 

 

Heather  31:46

They need somebody to match their level of intelligence, and even more than that, to 

challenge them and to be able to engage at their level, because they like to debate and solve 

problems. And they need somebody that can go that distance with them, right?

 

Kristina  32:07

Yep, they are very much activated and stimulated by intellectual debate. That’s what they’re 

looking for. So they want that mind mate. They are driven by logic. If it is not logical, they will 

not do it. Not logical. Why would I do that? Their bedroom? Forget it. If you’ve got a Rational 

kid or partner, they’re not making the bed. The Guardians are making the bed because you’re 

supposed to make the bed, and it doesn’t matter that I’m going to get right back in it tonight. 

Why am I making it and putting the pillows on? Because I’m supposed to. Rationals are like, 

“Why in the world would you have a decorative pillow? Right? You use a pillow, and we don’t 

need the decorative ones, and we’re getting right back in that bed tonight. So I’m not making 

that bed.” Rationals do not come into the world with much empathy.

 

Heather  33:03

No, they come into the world with very little and probably need to be taught what they do 

Have. They will come in to the moving day and say, “Why in the world did you

load that in first? That is the stupidest way to load a truck ever.”

 

Kristina  33:21

Yep. And they’ll just say it. 

 

Heather  33:25

And the Guardians will be like, “Thanks for coming.” The Artisans, they’ll be like, “This is why 

I am at the beach.”

 

Kristina  33:29

And the Idealists tell someone crying in the corner, going, too much tension, right?

“Can’t we all just get along?”

 

Heather  33:38

I’ll run and talk. “They didn’t mean that. Let me go. I’ll go move it.”

 

Kristina  33:41

So Rationals, like Idealists, think about things in big pictures. No bounds on their thinking. 

They’re very creative in coming up with new things. They’re very inventive. They pride 

themselves on their knowledge, and they’re always seeking knowledge, but that logic is what 

drives decisions. They like spreadsheets. They like doing their research. Whatever it is that 

they’re doing, they want to be extremely good at it, and are always seeking to learn more. So 

they really pride themselves, I mean, strong willed and in being, you know, again, 

independent

 

Heather

That’s achievement to them.

 

Kristina

Right. So they’re not driven by those feelings. So an Idealist connected to a Rational, the 

Idealist who is just really connected to the feelings, they in the Rational who’s like,

Don’t doesn’t mean nothing to me. 

 

Heather  34:43

Well, that gets really tricky. If you have an Idealist parent who’s always, “How are you? Would 

you? How does that feel to you?” And you have a Rational child, they are just going to feel 

smothered up by things that do not matter to them, or that they even understand. But then if 

you flip it and you have the Rational parent who has the Idealist child, the risk there is that 

they’re just going to be telling them constantly that all those feelings are ridiculous and have 

no meaning, right?

 

Kristina  35:16

Right. So Rational children

 

Heather  35:18

Oh, they say harsh. They can say very harsh things.

 

Kristina  35:22

They ask a lot of pointed questions. And if you say to a Rational child, “Do it because I said 

so,” what you have just told them without realizing it is that you have no idea, Rationals 

respect knowledge. They do not respect positional authority.

 

Heather  35:47

Which is really tricky for Rationals in school. I remember years ago, this child was 

probably in middle or high school now, yeah, but a parent coming to one of our classes 

regarding their preschooler, because they had a preschooler, but they also had a first grade 

child. And do you remember this? We did the temperament series, and she said, “I’m 

gonna buy the books that you recommended. And my son has been struggling behaviorally, 

and his teachers think he is so disrespectful.” And she’s like, “He is a good boy, but there is 

something different. There’s something different about him, and I’ve never been able to really 

articulate it, and now I can articulate it. He’s is a Rational and he’s so misunderstood.” But do 

you remember that he had said to his teacher, “Why in the world would I write with my pencil 

when I can tell you with my mouth?” In first grade. And they say it like you are the 

dumbest person in the whole wide world. Like, “Have you not thought that?” Like, stupidest 

request. So there’s all this bravado, because they in their mind, even first grade, six year 

old mind, “my teacher is an idiot and is asking me to write something down when I could just 

tell her.

 

Kristina  37:09

And it’s much more efficient for me to just tell her.” 

 

Heather  37:13

And there’s such a difference from “That’s disrespectful Go to the principal’s office” or “You 

need to do it, because that’s what the direction is from, “Oh, I hadn’t thought of it like that,”

right? “Think of it this way. How many kids are in here? Oh, 23 I wonder how long it would 

take for all of them to tell me with their mouth. Oh, right.” And all of a sudden we’re writing it 

down.

 

Kristina  37:41

But if the teacher had said “It’s because I said so”, the child thinks “You got no idea what 

you’re doing,” and they lose respect. It’s like, well – 

 

Heather  37:51

Or they’re in the principal’s office because the teacher said, “I told you to write that down, right?-

 

Kristina  37:55

And you didn’t. So there you go. I remember when I worked at a middle school and I mean, I 

love them all right, because I’m an Idealist, I love them all, but those little Rationals, because 

they are so misunderstood

 

Heather  38:11

And they’re brilliant-

 

Kristina  38:12

Oh my gosh, I’m always like, “Remember me someday when you invent the next wonderful 

thing!” So we were in middle school, and I had this Rational child, and he had taken a science 

test, and after the science test, he went to go hand it in, and he kind of flips it on the 

teacher’s desk and says, “Worst test ever written,” to the teacher. Now the teacher could 

respond, that’s totally say she had written the test, right? And so 

there are lots of ways that she could respond, but she knew that he was a Rational child, 

because we had that understanding with the staff that I was working with of trying to really better understand children by understanding their temperament. So instead of saying, “Go to the office” or whatever else, responding in that way, she said to him, ”Didn’t love the way you just said that to me, but make it better. Take the test and make it better.” And he did. He wrote questions that were better questions than the original test. So he was right. The test could be improved. But the way he said it was with, you know, kind of this disdain, right? Because, like, why would anybody write a test like that?

 

Heather  39:31

And all of this authority, yeah, worst test written.

 

Kristina  39:35

Yeah, the same kid that I remember going to the Spanish teacher and saying, “Yep, he’s not going to do one lick of work in here. So you can just, you know, that horse is dead, you can quit kicking it. Can hop on off,” because for what he wanted to do in his life, he needed Mandarin. He did not need Spanish, so it was illogical for him to spend any time or energy learning this language that he’ll never need. He wanted to invest in learning Mandarin because he knew what he wanted to do and how he wanted to do it already in middle school. And he knew what he’d need to get there. So a Rational individual is driven by logic. They pride their own knowledge and are always seeking to understand that. They want to understand how the world works. Many times, Rational individuals go into engineering or go into technology. They are creative and develop their own companies, and they’re just absolutely remarkable. But for Rationals, because of their temperament, they may look like they’re neurodivergent and that they may be on, like the autism spectrum-

 

Heather  40:47

It’s the low empathy. Could be the lack of social engagement, because they just don’t value that in their same way, very independent Idealist or the Guardians, and they’re so driven by logic, right? And so they can appear very fixated on certain things.

 

Kristina  41:02

So we’re not saying that if you’re a Rational, you’re neurodivergent. What we’re saying is that some of the characteristics of the temp overlap, can look like

 

Heather  41:14

And you can be misdiagnosed when really you just are a Rational temperament. This is my dad. My dad as a Rational and thinks it is wildly ridiculous that I can buy a vehicle and I haven’t driven it and I haven’t done the research. I just know what I want. I have these colors that would be acceptable and that I could possibly purchase something that is such a large purchase without never having laid eyes on it, never having sat on it. He just thinks that that’s stupid. I mean, I was going to try to make it nicer. He thinks it’s stupid  is really the root of it.

 

Kristina  41:54

So, yes, yeah, thanks, Dad. So those Rationales, right, a rule needs to make sense to them, for them to follow it. If it doesn’t make sense, they’re not going to follow it, like you had said earlier, about like, “Why would I write it down? If I can say it with my mouth?” If you are able to explain to a Rational why there’s this rule or why they need to do it this way, then they’ll happily accept it. 

 

Heather

Yeah, if they can see the logic.

 

Kristina

Yes, because it has to be logical. 

 

Heather  42:27

If it’s just because you’re making me right, you better get better at defending your right-

 

Kristina  42:33

Because now, holy cow, I’m in charge. I’m the smartest one in the room, right? And they may be very young, because none of these are-

 

Heather  42:41

That is one of the things with Rationals, there is an air that they’re perceived as being arrogant. Not team players.

 

Kristina  42:53

Yep, like Idealists use abstract language because they think such big thought-

 

Heather  43:02

But unlike Idealists, they’re not trying to bring people together. And they’re not trying to win anybody over. It’s more “This is how it is, period.” There’s that different feeling. 

 

Kristina  43:15

“This makes the most logical sense.” So Idealists need to make a big decision. I advise them to make it in their mind and then live with that decision for a couple days and then choose the other so let’s say their kids are trying to figure out, do I go to U of M, or do I go to Michigan State? And they really don’t know where they want to go. And so it’s like, so just make the decision, I’m going to U of M and live with that. Few days later, live with I’m going to Michigan State. One of them will feel more comfortable than the other, and that’s how Idealists make their decisions. There might be a pro con list where the cons are a mile long, and there’s one Pro, but that Idealist will look at it and say, but it feels like the right thing to do. The Rational would look at them like they had lost their minds, because the data shows this is the better choice. They’re driven by that logic and that data. They love the research. That’s how the Rationals make their decisions,

 

Heather  44:25

And Idealists consider how it impacts others. 

 

Kristina  44:29

Right. Rationals don’t care.

 

Heather  44:32

No. Right. Don’t care.

 

Kristina  44:32

The right decision for them. So that’s what they’re doing moving forward. If you have a child who’s a Rational, I also will talk to parents and say, “Hey, it’s probably a great idea to head over to a little resale shop and buy like a toaster for $2 and bring it home.” Like that’s Christmas to your Rational, because they can take it apart and they can put it back together, and it doesn’t matter.

 

Heather  44:58

Disable the electrical cord. We don’t want them putting it back together and burning, right?

 

Kristina  45:02

It might never toast again. But they want to learn how things are made. Yeah, and they work, so they’re going to take apart the toaster-

 

Heather  45:12

Or their bunk beds, right? Or like they’re going to find stuff within the home to take apart. You might as well let it be stuff you don’t mind if they take apart or if it ever works again.

 

Kristina  45:19

Yep. And they want to be intellectually stimulated, so we’re talking museums and we’re talking books. They love to have books read to them that are way above their reading level, because although they may not be able to read it yet, they are able to hold those concepts and those ideas, and they seek that now, and they seek that knowledge. So if you have a Rational child, they love to debate and argue, and that can be frustrating to the adult. They aren’t debating or arguing for the sake of arguing or for the sake of being disrespectful. It’s like they’re honing a skill of finding, like, is there a loophole here? They love to find a loophole. If you thought you had no loopholes, bring a Rational in, because they’re going to be like, whoop. Right here, right here, right here. They can see those things, they make outstanding lawyers, because they can view things from different angles.

 

Heather  46:27

And argue big time. And they don’t get caught up in all the feelings.

 

Kristina  46:31

Nope. no. And they do their research so many times they know what they’re talking about, even if they don’t, they will sound like they do. So I have a brother who’s a Rational, and if I ask a question, I remember we used to travel, and you do travel down the road, and there would be places that you would see these, like three crosses just along the highway, big crosses. One would be gold, and then there were two that were like, gray or silver. I always wondered what those were about. And I remember asking one time, like, “Do you know what those are about?” And there’s this answer that sounds very logical and makes all kinds of sense, but I’ve learned to say, “Do you know that?” Or what they’ll say is “No, but it’s logical.” Okay, but it might not be the case at all, but it’s like, but “That’s logical.” Like, okay, just need to know, because you’re speaking like you’re an authority. 

 

Heather  47:20

And we live in this super logical world. Yeah, kind of feels not so logical quite often. 

 

Kristina  47:30

Yeah. So you’re the one that taught me about writing a letter to my child’s teacher before the year started. When I did this all the time, when she was younger, about who she is, how she’s motivated. You know, things that you need to be aware of. It’s very important that she knows her teacher likes her for Grace. It’s very important to her. She learns better when she believes that you really care about her. Yeah. Rationals? Does not matter. They don’t care if you like them or not. Irrelevant. 

 

Heather  48:00

No. But you better know that the science you are teaching is actual science, because they will call you out and then heckle you. 

 

Kristina  48:09

Yes. So, you know, I had said that Idealist children need some protecting. So do the Rational children, because there are so few of them, people don’t really know what to do with a Rational child. So giving them that information before they start working with them, talking about like, yes, put them on a special project. If they ask a question, say, “I think you should go research that tell me what you’ve learned.” And really challenging them to expand their knowledge base is going to engage and excite a Rational child.

 

Heather  48:45

Temperament is a really big concept. There’s a lot to it. We have been working within temperament theory for twenty years plus, really, and I feel like I still learn something. I hear something different. It’s-I’m reminded of things that I maybe had not kept at the forefront. And it is such a powerful way to have a better view and understanding of your own self, ourselves as parents, if you’re parenting alongside another individual that understanding of how the two of you interact as parents and lead your kids, but also how we look at each of our children individually and have a deeper knowledge of who they are at their core and why they behave in Many of the ways that they do. It just helps us have more empathy. It helps increase our understanding, which then increases our joy and our ability to be able to connect to, to motivate, to respond to, to pause and remind ourselves, oh, I too. Tend to react this way, but they tend to see things this way. It’s a deeper understanding. And what we know is knowledge is power, and if we can use that knowledge in our homes, with our children, with our spouses, man, does it make the journey so much more enjoyable? Yeah.

 

Kristina  50:20

And now you know who to call if you’re moving right?

 

Heather  50:23

Exactly. It’s not Ghostbusters, it’s the Guardian That’s right. Call those Guardians.

 

Kristina  50:35

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina-

 

Heather  50:41

And I’m Heather, and we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  50:46

Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina 50:47

See you on the trails.

 

Kristina  50:52

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  51:03

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  51:11

Since 2000, The ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  51:23

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land, and nature to learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCnetwork.org.

Show Notes

Episode 3: Temperament Theory As A Parenting Tool, Part 1 

 

SUMMARY

 In this first episode in a two-part series, Kristina and Heather, discuss David Keirsey’s temperament theory as a tool in parenting, focusing on two of the four temperaments: Guardians and Artisans. 

Guardians (approximately 45% of the population) are factual, reliable, and duty-bound, valuing law and order. They are often responsible parents and leaders but can be misperceived as pessimistic or self-righteous. 

Artisans (approximately 30% of the population) are optimistic, daring, and adaptable, valuing freedom and impact. They are creative and spontaneous but may struggle with rules and planning. 

 Understanding temperament allows parents to recognize and appreciate the innate differences in how their children perceive the world and interact with it. 

Rather than expecting all children to respond the same way, parents can adjust their communication, discipline, and expectations to align with each child’s natural tendencies.

For example, with a Guardian child who values structure and rules, a parent can provide clear expectations and routines. With an Artisan child who craves freedom and spontaneity, the parent can find ways to channel that energy into safe, creative outlets.

“It helps us understand that these characteristics go along with a certain temperament type, and that that is hard-wired. Like that is who they were wired to be as they came in. And it’s important for us to say – and there are some temperaments that, by nature, just want to be the best temperament and have the best one. There are wonderful things about all of the temperament types. There are also growth areas for all of the temperament types.”

“And when we know those things, particularly about our children and our spouse if we have one, or our co-parent…it really helps smooth out so many things and just brings a greater, much, much broader lens of understanding to what maybe trips us up…why we might keep rubbing up and being frustrated by the same types of issues, and why it seems like someone continues to do this thing, even though we voiced it drives us crazy. It’s like, well, that that could very well be that that’s just how they’re wired and what feels very natural to them to do. And so when we broaden our understanding of those things, it can bring a lot more joy.”

Temperament theory helps parents avoid frustration by understanding why certain approaches may work well with one child but not another.

Instead of trying to force a child to be someone they’re not, parents can lean into the child’s strengths and find ways to support their growth.

By recognizing each child’s temperament, parents can better meet their unique emotional and developmental needs. This fosters stronger parent-child connections and helps children feel understood and accepted for who they are.

Overall, tailoring parenting strategies to temperament leads to more effective communication, reduced conflict, and a deeper appreciation for the diversity within a family. It empowers parents to bring out the best in each of their children.

 

What are the key characteristics of Guardian and Artisan temperaments, and how do they differ in their approach to parenting?

 Guardians:
– Factual, reliable, dependable, and concerned with duty and responsibility
– Believe in law, order, and following rules without question
– Value traditions, security, and a strong sense of justice and fairness
– Often responsible parents and leaders, they can tend to be pessimistic and can be misperceived as self-righteous.

 Artisans:
– Optimistic, daring, flexible, and impulsive
– Seek stimulation, freedom, and making a big impact
– Spontaneous, playful, and the “life of the party”
– Dislike rules and restrictions, preferring to trust their impulses

 In terms of parenting, Guardians tend to value obedience and expect their children to follow rules simply because they are rules. They provide a lot of structure and predictability. Artisan parents, on the other hand, have a more relaxed approach and allow for more freedom and spontaneity. They may struggle with providing the structure that Guardians find so important. The key is for parents to understand and appreciate the differences in temperament to avoid frustration and better meet the needs of their children.

 

What practical strategies can parents use to balance the needs of children with different temperaments, such as Guardians and Artisans?

For Guardian children:
– Provide clear structure, rules, and expectations. Guardians thrive on predictability.
– Emphasize the importance of responsibility and duty. Assign them chores and tasks to help the family.
– Validate their need for security and respect for authority. Guardian children find comfort in knowing the rules and typically willingly follow rules without question.

For Artisan children:
– Allow for more freedom and flexibility in their activities and schedule. Don’t overly restrict their spontaneity.
– Provide outlets for their need for adventure and risk-taking, like sports or creative hobbies, but ensure safety precautions.
– Help them understand how their actions impact others, but avoid stifling their natural exuberance.

 For the whole family:
– Communicate openly and respect each child’s specific needs 

– Model flexibility and compromise. Artisans can learn from Guardians’ sense of responsibility, while Guardians can learn to become more flexible in their approach.
– Establish family traditions and rituals that provide structure, but leave room for Artisan spontaneity and choice.
– Praise each child’s unique strengths and help them appreciate differences within the family.

The key is finding a balance that respects each child’s inborn temperament while also encouraging growth and adaptability. With understanding and patience, parents can create a harmonious environment for all temperaments.

 

Further Reading :

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

 

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 3: Temperament Theory As A Parenting Tool, Part 1

 

Kristina  00:00

In this episode, we’ll introduce you to David Keirsey’s temperament theory, a theory based on observable human traits, like how we make decisions, what information we notice, how we communicate, and characteristic attitudes, values and strengths

 

Heather  00:14

From the day they’re born. Our children are individuals with distinct preferences and unique ways of being in the world, interacting with others. As parents, understanding our child’s temperament helps us to accommodate their needs and also challenge them to learn flexibility and additional ways of responding.

 

Kristina  00:35

We’ll share our experiences using temperament theory as a parenting tool, and begin by focusing on two of the four temperaments, Guardians and Artisans. Understanding these temperaments can help us improve our parenting by allowing us to tailor our approach to each unique child’s needs.

 

Heather  00:53

We’ll have fun exploring how this tool can enhance communication, reduce frustration, and help us better understand and support ourselves and our children.  Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood,

 

Kristina  01:09

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather 01:22

And I’m Heather Bouwman.  Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re Support Service Directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  01:44

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather  01:50

Are you ready?

 

Kristina  01:51

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather 01:56

We were in private practice together as psychotherapists. We worked with children and families, and this was something that we used with families routinely, because it is such powerful information, and it really helps us understand that all humans come into the world wired a specific way with a specific sort of reaction to various stimuli. So what we’ll talk about think people oftentimes confuse temperament and personality, and they think that your temperament is your personality, and actually your temperament is one component of your personality, the personality the other piece is your character. So people will often say to us, “Well, I feel like I can’t really determine my temperament, because it’s changed over time.” That’s your character. Your character is developed based on your value system, your what you’re taught, how you live, your life experiences, your traditions, all of those things make up your character.

 

Kristina  03:03

Right.

 

Heather  03:04

And character is evolving. That is your nurture. So if we can think about our personality as there’s this nature component and there’s a nurture component, right? 

 

Kristina  03:16

Nature is the temperament. 

 

Heather  03:18

Temperament is your nature. Yes. So, the key takeaways: our character develops over time. 

 

Kristina  03:19

So the thing with temperament, like you had said, Heather, you’re born with it, and you may develop skills over your lifetime to help strengthen areas that may be weaker for you within your temperament, or areas that may trip you up. That’s all true. But your core temperament remains the same. I’m an extrovert, right? And I will always be an extrovert. That’s a part of my temperament. But as I’ve gotten older, there are times that I think, “But, but am I? I think I’m becoming an introvert,” and then I recognize I’m not becoming an introvert. I’m just tired. I’m just tired. I’m a tired extrovert. So it’s not that my temperament has changed, it’s that over your lifetime, some of those experiences can be different based on where you are, who you are, and where you are in your life. But I’m still an extrovert. Yes.

 

Heather  04:19

You’re not born with your character. It emerges based on your life experiences, how you’re raised. There’s that whole piece. And then the other piece is the temperament, which is not easily changed. It is inborn, and that those two things together make up your unique personality-and unique indeed they are. And I mean, for me, I have three kids. They have been raised in the same home with the same parents, and whiletwo of them have the same temperament, they’re wildly similar. And it’s my oldest and my youngest. So when you think about birth order, a lot of times, we’ll hear, “Well, isn’t that more of a birth order thing? Likethe oldest child is the dutiful, more responsible?” Maybe, but more that’s dependent on your temperament. 

 

Kristina  04:32

Absolutely 

 

Heather  04:46

And who you are within that temperament and what characteristics you were naturally born with.

 

Kristina  05:18

Right. So that character, again, when you think about like firstborn and last if a family with multiple children, yes, the parents are typically more relaxed when we get to the last one, right? 

 

Heather  05:24

No doubt-

 

Kristina  05:25

And so they “get away with a murder.” Whether or not that was their temperament that certainly is becoming part of their character, right? Which shows up in their personality.

 

Heather  05:41

Yes, and I have “the bookends,” I call them. So I’ve got, well, we’ll talk about Guardians in a minute here. That is one of the temperament types. I’ve got these two little Guardians. The oldest is a Guardian, and theyoungest is a Guardian. And I’ve got the sweet little Idealist in the middle. But those Guardians, still, there’sseven years between them. One was the oldest, and, you know, had a good amount of time with my husband and I before he had siblings. The other one never knew a life without siblings.

 

Kristina  06:10

Right- 

 

Heather  06:10

But who they are at their core is still so similar. And we say all the time, “Oh yeah, Ava is a female Zack.”That’s who she is. They just are so similar in those ways, because they carry the same temperament. 

 

Kristina  06:24

Today we’re going to go over this overview of the four main types of temperament. We’ll take deep dives down the road somewhere. But we talk about temperament a lot. We refer to it frequently, because it affects everything we do: how we view the world, how we interact with the world. So we wanted to give you all kind of this overview look at: What is this thing called temperament? What are the four main types? Why in the world does it matter?

 

Heather  06:52

Why in the world does it matter? And the short answer on that is: it’s the one thing I think that we have consistently heard from people that “this has helped me.” I think, after a parenting class, we had a dad say, “You just explained my whole entire teenage years in like one hour.”

 

Kristina  07:10

We have taught this for years in parenting classes that we offer. And it’s a really fun one, because there are lots of elbows going into like-

 

Heather  07:19

And eyebrows 

 

Kristina  07:20

Or you see somebody mouth “your mother,” right?

 

Heather  07:24

Yeah, yeah. There’s a lot of awarenesses being had.

 

Kristina  07:27

And every time we’ll comment afterwards like, “Oh, now I know why my partner has such a hard time making a decision.” Like, yes! That answers some of those questions. And one of the beautiful things I really like about it is that we have a tendency to want people to be like us, right? View the world like us, because it just makes sense. It’s the way I view the world. So why is that not the way everyone views the world? And we do that to our children as well. We want them to be little mini me’s, and so we try to force them-

 

Heather  08:07

Well, an example would be, if we have a really extroverted parent who has an even slightly introverted child, they think, “Oh, they’re missing out. They are missing out. They are not going to experience the things that I got to experience.” And the answer is: perhaps not. They also have very different needs.

 

Kristina  08:29

As much as I know about temperament, and I’ve been doing this for decades, I still looked at my husband, who’s an introvert, I’m an extrovert. When we would go to family reunions, which I used to call “vacation,” and he said, “A family reunion is not a vacation.” But we’d go, and I’d be so excited to see my family and and catch up with everyone. And we would not be there, but a minute or two – now that’s an exaggeration, maybe 30 minutes – and all of a sudden I think, “Where’s Vince? Where’d he go? Is Vince here? Where is he?” And I’d find him in our bedroom like reading a magazine, and I’m thinking, “What is wrong with you?” Like I remember saying to him, “Are you ill? I mean, all of the people are out there – 

 

Heather  09:19

There is a party out there, man, what are you doing? 

 

Kristina  09:22

Yes! And you’re in here reading a magazine? Like what the world?! And you can tend to view people who are not like you as kind of broken. It was like there’s something wrong with you that you’re in here instead of out there. There’s nothing wrong with him. He’s an introvert. I’m an extrovert. We get our energy very differently. So understanding temperament, for me, it allows me to appreciate other people, how they view the world, how they interact with the world, instead of thinking, “Oh, they’re kind of messed up. They’re a little bit broken.” 

 

Heather  09:57

Well and for our children, it helps us understand that these characteristics go along with a certain temperament type, and that that is hardwired. Like that is who they were wired to be as they came in. And it’s important for us to say – and there are some temperaments that, by nature, just want to be the best temperament and have the best one. There are wonderful things about all of the temperament types. There are also growth areas for all of the temperament types. And when we know those things, particularly about our children and our spouse if we have one, or our coparent, it really helps smooth out so many things and just brings a greater, much, much broader lens of understanding to what maybe trips us up, why we might keep rubbing up and being frustrated by the same types of issues, and why it seems like someone continues to do this thing, even though we voiced it drives us crazy. It’s like, well, that that could very well be that that’s just how they’re wired and what feels very natural to them to do. And so when we broaden our understanding of those things, it can bring a lot more joy to the home, to the workplace…

 

Kristina  11:20

It can. I was just gonna say that Heather. I was gonna say the same thing about how it infuses joy back into this parenting journey. Because once you have an idea of your temperament and the temperament of your children, you parent differently. 

 

Heather  11:38

Absolutely. 

 

Kristina  11:39

Because if my child is a different temperament than I am, the things that motivate me will not be the things that motivate my child. The things that excite me will not be the things that excite my child. And so I will discipline differently depending on the temperament of the child. You receive things so differently because it’s like, “Oh, I know why you said it to me like that.”

 

Heather  12:02

And for me and my household, my husband and I are different temperaments, and he’s a Guardian, and we’re going to talk about what that means to be a Guardian, but he had a really hard time. For me, it just felt natural that we would parent each child based on who they were, and that just, I think, with my training and just the temperament that I am, felt natural that, of course, we just respond to each child individually. Whereas my husband viewed it as: we just treat them all the same, right? Of course, we do. It has to be fair. And why would we parent them- That’s not fair. So fairness is a really strong Guardian trait, and we had to really talk about: actually, it’s a much richer experience if we can know who we are, like you had said, as people, and then also know who our children are wired to be. Then we can have such a deeper understanding and know what motivates and know what really shuts them down, and know what we need to grow in ourselves and what we need to grow in them. And that was not an easy grasping for him. He didn’t immediately buy into that theory, because of who he is. And then, when he sat and looked at his own temperament, he was like, “Oh.” And he could see himself in it. And that’s the crazy stuff. When you read the description, it’s like, “Oh yeah, that is me. Yes, that is me. 

 

Kristina  13:41

Yep.”

 

Heather  13:56

So should we talk about Guardians?

 

Kristina  13:59

Oh I’m so excited about it. I just want to give, sorry, a little more background. This is me, part of who I am. So we’re going to talk about temperament theory, and we’re going to specifically talk about Keirsey and temperament theory based on the work of Dr. Keirsey. His work is very closely aligned with the Myers- Briggs Personality Sorter. And so some of the language is the same. I really like Keirsey. It’s the one that we’ve used for years and years and years-

 

Heather  14:28

Because that’s what we’ve been trained at-

 

Kristina  14:30

 Certainly. And I’ve seen it play out over and over and over and over again. 

 

Heather  14:35

We’ve had a really high accuracy-

 

Kristina  14:38

Yeah. And it’s just been incredibly helpful. 

 

Heather  14:40

Absolutely-

 

Kristina  14:41

That’s what we’ll talk about, because we want to understand people and the differences in people. So let’s get started. 

 

Heather  14:47

Okay, let’s get started. Guardians are almost half of our American population, and they make up over half of the population in my personal home.

 

Kristina  15:02

Yep. Which would be reflective of the American population.

 

Heather  15:06

The national average. So 45% of our population are Guardians. And what does it mean to be a Guardian? Let’s talk about just some descriptive words for them, as I think of my husband, my oldest son and my youngest child, who is my daughter, they are factual. They are reliable. They are dependable. They are concerned. They’re going to think things through. They are duty bound. 

 

Kristina  15:40

Yes, they are-

 

Heather  15:41

That they hold a very high reliability and duty for themselves, of responsibility. They like law and order. They will follow rules because they are rules. They don’t particularly question the rules. 

 

Kristina  15:59

Nope.

 

Heather  15:59

They just follow them because it’s “the right thing to do.” So as I think about my husband, he is very humble. I often refer to him as a very quiet leader, and that I admire so much because I’m not quiet ever, and if I have thoughts in my mind, they usually come out my mouth. And I admire about him that he is a very thoughtful, discerning, wise, but still a very strong leader. He’s just much quieter about it. So I admire those things, because that’s not me. And so I think that’s really, really good. He also loves traditions. Guardians love traditions. And you have to be careful with Guardians and know who those are in your family, because if you start something, they’re gonna turn it into a tradition oftentimes. Like “We’re gonna do this every year, and this is gonna be our thing.” And you think, “Oh, that? I thought I was doing this once. I didn’t know I was committing to the rest of my life.” 

 

Kristina  17:05

Right-

 

Heather  17:06

With this. Again, they pride themselves on being dependable, helpful and hardworking, and they are.

 

Kristina  17:12

Yeah. 

 

Heather  17:13

They’re the friend that if you are moving on a rainy Saturday morning and the work begins at 7am they will be there at 6am. And they will probably have coffee and donuts, and they will be in it for the long haulin’ their rain gear. 

 

Kristina  17:26

Yep, showing up. 

 

Heather  17:27

They’re showing up as life partners, Guardians are incredibly loyal.

 

Kristina  17:34

Yes.

 

Heather  17:35

And they are helpers. They’re responsible parents. They’re responsible people, I would say. But as a parent, they’re just really responsible people, and they are stabilizing leaders. 

 

Kristina  17:48

Yes.

 

Heather  17:49

They, again, believe in law and order. They are concerned citizens. They seek security, and they really pride themselves on a strong sense of justice and fairness. All of that is very important to them. 

 

Kristina  18:10

They can be a wee bit pessimistic.

 

Heather  18:12

Pessimistic, yes, I would absolutely agree, and maybe a little self righteous. I don’t know that they are self righteous. I think they can be perceived as being self righteous, but really they are kind of the cornerstone of our society. They are going to do the jobs that other people might not be interested at all in doing because they require so much duty and service. 

 

Kristina  18:36

Yes. 

 

Heather  18:37

So they tend to be police officers. They tend to be our military people. They have that very strong sense of patriotism and justice and law and all of those things. As I think about my Guardian children, they required a lot of setting the scene for them. “This is what you can expect.” They like to know the rules. They like to have predictability. They don’t easily flexibly adapt. 

 

Kristina  19:05

No. Change is very hard. 

 

Heather  19:07

Change is very hard. And they’re never going to leap before they look. They are going to stand back. They’re going to watch everyone else. And they’re going to decide if this is a good idea or this is a bad idea. And then they will move in. And that’s a really important thing to know as a parent, because we want to honor within our children if they have a feeling of, “Oh, ” we don’t want to rush them in that kind of “uh oh” feeling. If they have an “uh oh” about something.

 

Kristina  19:36

Even though I might be somebody that would rush right in, that’s the child might be a different temperament. They value family. 

 

Heather  19:41

And we don’t want to teach our children to distrust what feels natural to them. We want to have them rely on that because they’re going to feel greater awareness of themselves and better connected to who they are naturally, rather than “I’m going to go through life trying to be like my mom or my dad” or whatever it might be, right? That’s going to just feel maybe unnatural to them. So they do take more time in all of that. And I remember when my kids would start school, I would, you know, write a little note to the teacher at the beginning and say, “This is who Zack is. He really likes predictability. He likes structure. He’s gonna probably follow any rule that he knows exists, just because it exists.” And that was him when he was very little. Now, Guardians, as they grow, can look a little different, because they do hit the spot of rebellion, and it looks very different. They’re not ever highly rebellious. They still go back to valuing laws and order and structure. They value stuff.  Oh yes,

 

Kristina  20:51

And whether you’re young or whether you’re old, if you’re a Guardian, you really value being a helper. So raising Guardian children, if you have Guardian children, they are not a really hard temperament to raise, because they like to be helpful. They like to do jobs and feel that they’re contributing to the family, like with chores and things like that. And they follow rules just because it’s there. 

 

Heather  21:17

Yeah.

 

Kristina  21:17

It does not have they make sense. 

 

Heather  21:19

They don’t question,  they just follow it, because that’s the rule, and that’s what you do. 

 

Kristina  21:23

Yep. And they trust and they value authority. So  they respect authority simply because it’s there. You don’t have to earn it with them. They just respect.

 

Heather  21:34

And it makes them feel safer, and-

 

Kristina  21:36

Yeah,  that’s a great point. 

 

Heather  21:37

It makes them feel more in control, I would say. And they are the type that will say things like, “The world is going to hell in a handbasket.” Like we have lost it all. And it’s so funny that the generations have been saying that for years and years and years and years. It dates way back. 

 

Kristina  21:59

Yeah.

 

Heather  21:59

That is a common-

 

Kristina  22:01

Like “Women can wear pants. What’s happening to the world, right?”

 

Heather  22:05

So many things. So that is just- that’s a Guardian statement. And when you know those things, you can kind of chuckle about it and be like, “Oh, yeah, that’s your that’s your duty bound side.”

 

Kristina  22:20

We would be lost without the Guardians, because they really are like the pillars of society, and they ensure that our institutions run, because they will serve on the board, and they will be on the committee, and they will make sure there are diapers in the diaper bank, because they have concern for our culture, for our society, for our neighborhood, for our home, they feel responsible,

 

Heather  22:47

They do. And they also might be more likely to have high blood pressure and hypertension, because- have more anxiety-because of all that duty and because of all that feeling of responsibility. I will often say to my husband, like “That’s not all on you.” And yet then we go to church on Sunday, and he owns an HVAC company, and we’re sitting in church, and he hadn’t yet – at the church. I mean, he doesn’t work for the church – but this is what he does because of who he is, he hadn’t turned the boilers off yet and turned the air conditioning systems on. And I think every sweet little old lady in church was fanning herself and then giving him the stink eye like, because they know he’s in charge. But now it’s like, “I think it’s time to switch the systems over and get a little cool air blowing in here.” And he’s like, “Yeah, I think so. I think that’s my job forever now.” But I’m like, “It’s not. It’s fine, like, we don’t all have to be 100% comfortable all of the time,” because he will put that weight on his shoulder, right? 

 

Kristina  23:56

Like “I’m responsible for all of that-“

 

Heather  23:57

Along with everything else – his family responsibilities, his business responsibilities, all of those things. And that’s what Guardians do.

 

Kristina  24:06

Guardian parents are the parents most likely to say something like, “You do it because I told you to do it. Because I said so,” yep, because that’s how they worked. I do things because somebody told me to do it. Somebody in authority told me to do it. I don’t ask any questions. I don’t need anything else. You told me to do it. So I will. Now, every little toddler goes through the Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Phase. But Guardian children, more than any other temperament, will do what their parents ask if they know the expectation, because they want to meet it and they want to please you.

 

Heather  24:44

And here’s a bit of the rub with that, is that Guardians, they expect obedience.

 

Kristina  24:51

Yes.

 

Heather  24:52

Because that is how they organize their world.

 

Kristina  24:55

Yep.

 

Heather  24:56

There is right and there is wrong.

 

Kristina  24:57

Yup. 

 

Heather  24:58

There is black and there is white. There is lawful, and then there’s unlawful. 

 

Kristina  25:03

There’s good and bad.

 

Heather  25:05

Good and bad. Right and wrong.  All of those very polar opposite ways of thinking. They do not live in the shades of gray. They are not comfortable there. This is lovely because I think there are only shades of gray, and my husband is this black and white. It’s- I mean, that’s evolved over time, because his life experiences with moi has grown his character, but he still remains that very black or white thinking is his natural inclination, but he can pause now and be like, “Let’s talk this through.” And same for me. I can be very comfortable in those middle grounds in between them, and he’ll be like, “We’ve gotta take a hard stance on whatever this is,” and so we’ve had to work that out. So back to the obedience thought: Guardians, it makes sense to them to obey, and if that’s how you organize your world, of course, that makes sense. But then, if you have a child that is not a Guardian, that doesn’t organize their world, in this land of obedience, it can get real tricky, intense and stressful, because all of a sudden you’re not used to this challenge or question or “why,” and it’s stressful, and it can be like, “Who even are you? Why are you such a disrespectful little person?”

 

Kristina  25:07

Yep. That’s it. Well, you’ve talked at other times Heather about mealtime at your home and how Travis was very much in the camp of “You eat what has been provided for you. No questions. That is what you eat.” Because he’s a Guardian, and that’s what you do. And to not do that would be very disrespectful 

 

Heather  26:40

-to the person who had made the food. 

 

Kristina  26:48

Right. Yup. And Guardians have very little tolerance for disrespect, and they see it all over.

 

Heather  26:58

And then where the real rub happens is when you get a more free thinking child, like an Artisan. Let’s talk about the sweet Artisans of the world who are the second largest population. So Guardians, 45%. Artisans, 30%. So between Guardians and Artisans, we have 75% of the population in America represented. So let’stalk about Artisans, who literally color our world. 

 

Kristina  27:36

They are so much fun. 

 

Heather  27:38

They are so much fun. So they are optimistic, daring. I would say dare devils almos. Flexible, adaptable, excitable, impulsive-

 

Kristina  27:51

Yes, yes.

 

Heather  27:53

 Playful, spontaneous, persuasive-

 

Kristina  27:58

Oh, yeah.

 

Heather  27:59

Just you want to be around them. There’s an energy.

 

Kristina  28:02

They’re fun. They bring the fun.

 

Heather  28:03

They bring the fun. 

 

Kristina  28:05

They also bring the risk, which, if you’re like me, that is not fun. But they’re the ones doing donuts in parking lots-

 

Heather  28:15

Cutting through all the places they shouldn’t be. Cutting through. All the things. There’s so many things. And they’re just playful, fun-loving, optimistic. So they’re really fun to be around, because they tend to be really upbeat, and they see the good in everybody.

 

Kristina  28:32

Stuff doesn’t ruffle their feathers. 

 

Heather  28:34

No. Life is meant to be lived. And why wouldn’t you enjoy it? We are going to live life to the fullest, they will have way less anxiety than their Guardian friends.

 

Kristina  28:44

They will also not have the same 401K. 

 

Heather  28:47

That’s right. Because they’re gonna travel while they’re young and beautiful, and those Guardians are going to pile up their money and travel when they’re not young and beautiful.

 

Kristina  29:02

They’re going to leave it to their children is what they’re going to do.

 

Heather  29:05

They’re going to build generational wealth. And the Artisans are

 

Kristina  29:11

Like going out. I’m sliding into home with not a penny to my name, but here we go,

 

Heather  29:15

And I’m going to blog about it. Yep, absolutely. So they pride themselves on being bold and unconventional and spontaneous. In life, they look for a playmate. So they want someone that can have fun with them, that can roll with that spontaneity. They make really creative parents and troubleshooting leaders. They don’t even know the box is there. Depending on how strong of an Artisan you are, like the box might not even exist. They’re “out of the box” thinkers. They are the big, loud, let’s hammer this out. Great ideas, people, visionaries. They’re excitable. They trust their impulses. They are the leapers. They aren’t gonna look, they’re gonna leap.

 

Kristina  29:16

Yeah. 

 

Heather  29:16

And so they trust those impulses, and oftentimes, their bodies can support that. They’re oftentimes quite athletic, and have a earlier-

 

Kristina  30:12

Body awareness. Yes. 

 

Heather  30:14

And they can manipulate their bodies in ways like athletes do from a very young age. Typically, that’s one of their areas of giftedness, I would say. And because they seek stimulation, they just are more physical in general at an early age. People would be like, “Oh, you know, he was walking by nine months, and hasn’t ever stopped. And like, is just everywhere and fast.” And probably an Artisan. They just command their body differently, and they’re busy.

 

Kristina  30:41

Yes. And because they are not risk averse, they also try things that others may not be willing to try. So if you have something on wheels, you have a skateboard, you have roller skates, you have anything on wheels, the Artisans want to be on them. And because they’re so aware of their bodies, they can get pretty good. And I think “You’re too young. That’s too dangerous. You shouldn’t be on that scooter.” Yet, the Artisans are like, “Watch me go.” If there’s something to jump off of that Artisan, it’s gonna jump off of it.

 

Heather  31:15

And a Guardian would say, “Well, they’ll do that once, and they won’t do that again.” And the Artisan child will get up, dust themselves off, and be like, “Well, I lived through that. Let’s see what else I can do.” 

 

Kristina  31:27

I have an Artisan nephew who is wonderful and I’m not an Artisan, and I love the freedom of the Artisans. And he will do things. I mean, he’s the kid who the garage door is going down, and he is quite sure that he can make it underneath, as it’s, you know, so he’s, he’s sliding across the floor so that he can get his body out the garage door in time. And I was with him one time, and he didn’t quite make it, so it stopped right on him. He’s like, “Oh, didn’t die. Didn’t die.” He’d like to say “didn’t die. Almost died twice this month, but it didn’t die.” 

 

Heather  32:05

So let’s talk about Artisans. Can look sometimes maybe more hyperactive. We need to say that any of these temperaments, Guardians, Artisans, Idealists, Rationals, any of them can have things like ADHD, can be on the autism spectrum, can have anxiety, can have depression, because that is any person.

 

Kristina  32:35

Right.

 

Heather  32:35

But there are temperaments that are more likely to be misdiagnosed because they look like they may be hyperactive Artisans, because they are so physical, because they can, especially extroverted ones, kind of run on a motor, are most likely to be misdiagnosed as having ADHD. More hyperactive. 

 

Kristina  33:01

Well, it’s because they trust their impulses. 

 

Heather  33:02

It doesn’t mean that we can’t have Artisans, guys, that have ADHD. They absolutely can-

 

Kristina  33:07

But many of them look like they could because they trust those impulses, because they are bold.

 

Heather  33:14

Yeah, they’re gonna blurt. Children in school They have an idea, it’s gonna come right out their mouth.

 

Kristina  33:20

Yep. Yep and they just want to have fun. And rules really just ruin the fun.

 

Heather  33:28

And that’s a huge piece of it. Rules confine them. And restrict them. And they have a true need for two things: impact and freedom. They want to make a big splash. Cannonballs. Big impact. And “don’t hem me in. I want my freedom.” So here’s the thing as we think about children and Guardians and Artisans: Schools, traditional school, was built by Guardians, for Guardians. Those little Artisans? That is a system that does not feel natural to them because there are so many rules and because it is about following the herd.

 

Kristina  34:09

Right. Order. 

 

Heather  34:10

Like you go where you’re told. You do this part of the day. You line up at the door. You don’t touch the walls. I mean, these are the kids that would have the hands out and be making noises and interacting as they’re going down the hall and wave to their friend and say “hi ” to their last year’s teacher-

 

Kristina  34:25

Even sitting. Even doing work at a desk or a table, Artisans were not meant to sit. They’re always on the move. And even the quieter ones, even the introverted Artisans, are not so thrilled with all of that containment and rule following things like that. They just want to soak in all that they can experience in the world. And so they are kind of the most hedonistic. 

 

Heather  34:52

They’re the life of the 

 

Kristina  34:53

They are.

 

Heather  34:54

And they kind of like to be so spontaneous and impulsive that they can be viewed as reckless and irresponsible. 

 

Kristina  35:03

Especially by Guardians.

 

Heather  35:03

A Guardian parent is going to and they tend to be like the rock stars of our world, or they go into drama or theater or dance or things that a Guardian parent might say, “How do you intend to support yourself?” Doing that ? It’s a very Guardian thing to say when the Artisan would be like, “How could I ever live without doing that?” It’s not about how am I going to support myself? It’s about, how am I even going to live and be happy if I can’t do that? And so those are really big conversations. I just had a conversation with a friend yesterday who is an Artisan and Artisan parents, I can only imagine, are so much fun. They tend to have really loose boundaries. That’s one of the areas that if you’re an Artisan parent, you need to shore up and be aware of. And she said that someone had said to her, “So you’ve raised your kids to be these free thinkers and to really pride themselves in that, and that’s highly valued for you. And now that they’re getting older and growing into young adults, you want them to have a plan, and you’ve never raised them to have a plan. You’ve always wanted them to be these free thinking, spontaneous, soak it all in people, but now you’re feeling the need for them to buckle down because they’re of an age, yeah, but you’ve never raised them in that way.” Where they have to get responsible.  Yes!

 

Kristina  36:38

That’s very hard for the Artisans. Rules are hard for them. Making decisions. That’s hard for them. Time is very fluid for Artisans. For Guardians to be on time is to be ten minutes early, right? Artisans are like – who knows when they’ll show up? If you’re moving, you may call an Artisan to come have fun and be the entertainment. 

 

Heather  37:01

And if something better comes along, they’re going there. They’re gonna be like, “Oh man, so and so called and we went to the game.” Like “have fun.” 

 

Kristina  37:03

They’re out. Who would pass that up?  And they wouldn’t even let you know,  right? And they’re the people that, even if you’ve had plans to do something, at the eleventh hour, will be like, “Hey, can we just stick that turkey – I know it’s been thawing for three days, and we were planning to do this – but just stick it back in the fridge, because can we do this instead? And people are like, “What? Like we’ve been planning this event! Like the table is set for what we’re doing tomorrow. I’m not putting the thawed turkey back in the fridge.” And the Guardians are irate, but those Artisans can just shift and flex and move and want to go wherever the wind takes them. Yes, but boy oh boy, if you are not an Artisan and you’re a Guardian, you worry about those Artisans because, you know-

 

Heather  37:53

It looks like they could be wildly irresponsible and really poor planners. And we see this play out on a lot of sitcoms where families are featured, right? There’s typically the really strong, responsible, typically oldest child, and then the young, free flowing Artisan, youngest child is portrayed. But that’s really a temperament thing. It’s not necessarily a younger/older thing.

 

Kristina  38:18

And when I look at Artisans, I think to myself, “Oh, I wish I could be that fun. Oh, they take the best vacations. And they just decided to just get up and go.” I have friends that they’re both Artisans. Both of the adults are Artisans. And, man, do they have fun. They go on great adventures and have a wonderful, wonderful time. And they just do it. 

 

Heather  38:41

It’s the people who take off on their boat and decide to sail for an entire year or two. And that’s just what they’re gonna do. And the rest of the family kind of goes, “Huh? You’re gonna what? Who does that?” Well, they do.

 

Kristina  38:59

So those Artisans, they suck up every single piece of experience that they can. They have an awful lot of fun. They do not get stomach ulcers because they’re just not that worried about it. And being adventuresome is really important to them.

 

Heather  39:17

And they can be really frustrating to the Guardians who pride on duty, on service and responsibility. Because, again, if you’re an Artisan, let’s say you’re in meetings on a board somewhere, and you’re just like, “Yeah.” They love every idea. They’re not gonna see fault with anything. They’re going to support it all. But then somebody has to get the work done, right? And it’s not going to be the Artisan, right?  It’s going to fall to the Guardian. And so that is some of the- I just want to paint the picture of what some of the rubs can be when you get these temperaments together, and why, understanding is so important. 

 

Kristina  40:01

Yeah. Artisan children, oh, if they’ve done something they shouldn’t have done, they kind of think it’s funny because these rules are ridiculous. They just confine me anyway. But they’re the ones that’ll be like, “Ooh!”, shaking their little booty at you and being like, “Catch me if you can.” And they run on off. But they’re so charming, those Artisans, oh, that when you do sit to have a conversation with your child, and they have this wonderful look, and they can be so persuasive, and they just can tell you kind of what you want to hear. It’s really hard to discipline them.

 

Heather  40:36

And they can make you laugh too.

 

Kristina  40:37

Oh, for sure-

 

Heather  40:38

Because they’re usually wildly funny. 

 

Kristina  40:40

Yeah, hilarious.

 

Heather  40:43

Absolutely.

 

Kristina  40:43

Yep. So with Artisan children, if you are fortunate enough to have an Artisan in your family as the parent, you want to have risk involved in the things that they do, but if you decide what the risk is, then you can keep them safe. So things like rock climbing, things like Karate or Taekwondo and doing those kinds of things where the young Artisan gets to really challenge themselves physically and take those things that are risky. But as a parent, you can say, “Hey, they’re rock climbing, but they’re harnessed up.”

 

Heather  41:24

That’s the huge part of it, that when you have an Artisan child, you must preach safety. From basically day one, they have to understand safety first. And they will joke, as does my son, “No, safety third!”, like “safety first,” yeah. And so you have to really model that and allow the opportunity for all of the understanding of the safety: the helmets, the elbow pads, the knee pads, perhaps the chest guard, whatever it is. They need to understand that if you’re going to rock climb, you’re harnessed, because they want to take risks, and they have the sort of need to. I mean, adrenaline can be addictive. And they run on a high level of stimulation and need to kind of one up and level up, level up, and be really good at it. And they typically are. You just want to keep them safe. Yep. You know, they’re the guys that, I mean, the bull riders. So many things that we can look at. And then we think, who does that? It’s Artistans who do that.

 

Kristina  42:41

I think about dares. In our home, we have an agreement, a rule: no dares, no secrets. Those do not lead to happy places. A Guardian isn’t going to take a dare because they’re too concerned and it’s too risky. If you dare an Artisan to do something they are all in and may even up the ante. So don’t dare an Artisan, because they’ll do it just to see what will happen.

 

Heather  43:10

And the other thing is growing their awareness of: that might seem like a really cool thing to do. How does it impact others? Because they don’t naturally go to that. So they can pride themselves on being hilarious and funny, and they want those big moments, but they don’t think through how that casts a shadow perhaps onto someone else, and that can be hard to live in an Artisan’s shadow. If you’re not an Artisan, they’re the frontliner, they’re the headliner, they’re the funny and then that can cast a pretty big shadow to a spouse or a child or whomever. So that it’s helping, if you’re raising an Artisan child, grow the awareness of be aware of how that impacts, how that choice is going to impact those around you. My son is very funny. We use humor in our home a lot. But from a very young age, I had to teach him that every good comedian knows timing is everything. Setting. Knowing your audience. All of those things all really matter if, if you’re truly looking to hone that skill. And so he took that and could understand that then, and it helped him a lot. So again, there are so many wonderful things with each of these temperaments. There’s also growth areas that just awareness of helps you automatically think about it a bit differently.

 

Kristina  44:46

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures in Parenthood. I’m Kristina

 

Heather  44:52

and I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  44:57

Until next time, see you on the trail! The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

 

Heather  45:14

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  45:22

Since 2000, the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  45:35

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.odcnetwork.org.

Show Notes

Episode 2: The Parenting Journey, Part 2 of 2

 

SUMMARY 

Continuing their conversation on “The Parenting Journey,” Heather and Kristina explore embracing the unexpected and letting go of preconceived expectations both of ourselves as parents and of our children.

They discuss the importance of discovering and celebrating each child’s unique identity, rather than trying to mold them into a predetermined vision.

They share personal experiences of navigating parenting challenges, such as dealing with a child’s learning differences and embracing their child’s specific interests, even when they are outside the parent’s comfort zone. 

The conversation emphasizes the value of building a supportive community of friends and family who can provide encouragement, perspective, and a listening ear during difficult times.

 They highlight the role of imaginative play in a child’s development and the need for parents to be flexible and adapt to their child’s needs.

This episode underscores the importance of finding personal coping strategies, like using music, and using humor to manage stress and maintain a positive mindset throughout the parenting journey.

Overall, this episode focuses on the importance of letting go of expectations, celebrating each child’s uniqueness, and surrounding ourselves with a supportive community to navigate the ups and downs of parenthood.

 

Embracing the Parenting Journey

  • Heather introduces the episode’s theme: understanding the parenting journey and the challenges of letting go of expectations.
  • They discuss the importance of balancing personal needs with a child’s unique needs.
  • Heather mentions the benefits of maintaining order, allowing room for imaginative play, and stepping out of our comfort zones.
  • They emphasize the role of a supportive community in raising children.

 

The Foundation of Parenting

“We hear that a lot from parents:

‘Oh, they’re nothing like me. They’re exactly like my husband or my partner or my dad or my mom. And I have no idea how to parent this child. I thought they were just going to be a mini version of myself and that we’d get along beautifully, and it was all going to be adorable, social media posts and doing all of these things together. But it’s not, and it’s much more challenging than I thought.’

And part of that is as a parent beginning to realize who your child is and who they are uniquely gifted to be, and that that might be vastly different from who you are, but when you can recognize them for who they are and the gifts that they have, and celebrate that, it’s a much more joyful journey…”

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the transition from being “perfect parents” before having children to the reality of parenting.
  • They highlight the importance of embracing the child one has, rather than the one expected, and how challenging that can be.
  • Heather and Kristina share personal experiences of realizing their children are not mini versions of themselves.
  • They discuss the joy of discovering and celebrating a child’s unique gifts.

 

Navigating Parenting Challenges

“…And one of the things that I recommend to parents, is to really see your journey as a parent in this adventure of parenthood as evolving and changing along the way. Because, really, in this moment, I hope to be the parent that my child needs.”

  • Heather talks about the grief of realizing that her son’s educational journey was going to be different from her own.
  • They discuss the importance of letting go of preconceived notions about a child’s abilities and celebrating their unique gifts and abilities.
  • Heather shares her experience of discovering her son’s love for critters and how it changed her perspective on parenting.
  • The conversation touches on the challenges of meeting a child’s needs while also dealing with personal expectations.

 

Imaginative Play and Supporting Children’s Interests

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the critical importance of imaginative play in a child’s development.
  • Heather shares an anecdote about her son’s love for nature and how it led to unexpected experiences, like handling frogs and snakes.
  • They discuss the role of music in managing household chaos.
  • Kristina talks about the importance of adapting to a child’s unique interests and not forcing them into preconceived roles.

 

Building a Supportive Community

“Comparison is…the thief of joy.”

  • Heather emphasizes the importance of having a supportive community to navigate the challenges of parenting.
  • Kristina shares her experience of letting go of her own preconceived ideas about parenting and embracing the journey.
  • They discuss the importance of surrounding ourselves with people who support and love both the parent and the child.
  • Heather and Kristina discuss the impactful role of friends in providing support and celebrating milestones together.

 

The Role of Friends in Parenting

“One of my greatest and best surprises as a parent was having my friend group, my and my husband’s friend group, embrace our children, love our children, support them, cheer them on for who they are, individually and uniquely, and just show interest in them. That has been – there are many great joys as a parent – that has been one to me that was really fulfilling, because it’s so contrary to what we often see in society.”

  • Heather talks about the joy of having friends who embrace and support our children and how we can provide support for each other’s children.
  • The importance of having a supportive friend group that doesn’t judge or compare is emphasized.
  • Kristina shares her experience of calling a friend for support during difficult parenting moments.
  • The conversation highlights the role of friends in providing perspective and support during challenging times.

 

Letting Go of Expectations

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of letting go of societal expectations and focusing on the child’s unique needs.
  • They discuss the challenges of dealing with judgment and comparison from others.
  • Heather emphasizes the importance of tuning out external “noise” and focusing on our child’s development.

 

 

The Importance of Community

  • Heather and Kristina deepen their discussion of the role of community in supporting parents and children.
  • They talk about the importance of having a supportive network to share both the joys and challenges of parenting.
  • Heather shares an anecdote about a community gathering that emphasized the importance of companionship and support
  • They discuss the role of our “village” in celebrating milestones and providing support during difficult times.

 

Embracing the Journey

  • Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of embracing the unique challenges parenting brings.
  • They emphasize the importance of focusing on the child’s needs and letting go of preconceived ideas.
  • Heather shares her experience of dealing with her child’s dyslexia and the importance of celebrating our children’s unique gifts.
  • Kristina talks about the importance of adapting to a child’s unique interests and providing support for their growth.

 

Final Thoughts 

  • Heather and Kristina wrap up the episode by emphasizing the importance of community and support in parenting, letting go of expectations, and focusing on the child’s unique needs.
  • Heather and Kristina express gratitude for the support they have received from their community.

 

Further Reading 

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Executive functions and imaginative play 

The Power of Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Family Rituals – why are they important?

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 2: The Parenting Journey, Part 2 of 2

 

Heather  00:00

In this episode, we’ll deepen our understanding of embracing the parenting journey and how we do that, because parenting is a marathon, not a sprint.

 

Kristina  00:09

We explore why it’s so challenging for us as parents to let go of the expectations we have for ourselves and our kids. 

 

Heather  00:16

“Embracing the parenting journey” might sound nice, but how specifically do we handle all the unexpected challenges that come with it? Because those challenges will come for all of us.

 

Kristina  00:27

And a big part of that is learning to let go. We explore how we find the balance between meeting our needs and our child’s unique needs. 

 

Heather  00:36

We discuss things like maintaining order, imaginative play, and stepping out of our comfort zones like touching frogs and snakes, which definitely wasn’t on my radar before I became a mom. 

 

Kristina  00:48

To wrap things up, we’ll talk about the importance of building a supportive community while raising children.

 

Heather  00:54

Our village plays such a crucial role in helping us embrace and celebrate the many wonders we experience on this adventure in parenthood. Welcome to Gear Up: Adventures In Parenthood!

 

Kristina  01:10

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

 

Heather  01:23

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  01:44

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. 

 

Heather  01:50

Are you ready?  Let’s hit the trails. This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents. 

 

Kristina  02:11

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives. 

 

Heather  02:18

Please visit www.odcnetwork.com to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

 

Kristina  02:28

We love what we get to do. We’ve been working together since we met in graduate school decades ago, and have always had a passion for working with families and children and really helping them rediscover the joy of parenthood and walk alongside them on this journey, which is an adventure. Sometimes you think you’re going out for a sweet little hike, simple, easy, beautiful day, and you end up wrestling crocodiles. 

 

Heather  02:57

So it requires some gear and maybe a guide…

 

Kristina  03:01

And a bit of preparation, because what you thought you’d be doing and what you’re actually doing can be quite different. So we’re going to talk about that today. So in this episode, we’re going to talk about the foundation of this adventure in parenthood. We’ll talk about how, oh my word, before we had children, we were-

 

Heather  03:19

Best parents ever!

 

Kristina  03:21

Oh amazing, remarkable parents-

 

Heather  03:23

We knew it all.

 

Kristina  03:24

Yeah, and then some. I thought,

 

Heather  03:26

And were willing to share all of our knowledge openly.

 

Kristina  03:31

We were in the business of helping parents before we became parents, and it’s changed now that we have our own and have experienced that very personally and not just through theory and through our education. So it’s different, and we’re excited to share that with you. We’re going to unpack all that goes into loving the child that you have, embracing joy in the midst of what can be a challenging time, and growing yourself into the parent you were always meant to be.

 

Heather  04:11

Kristina and I often talk to parents who are surprised as they begin this journey of parenting, and they’re surprised at a variety of things that they maybe begin to reflect on their own childhood, how they were parented. We get asked a ton, “I’m parenting very differently from my parents. Why is it so challenging and difficult? I feel so judged.” So there’s a lot that when you embark on this journey as a parent that you maybe didn’t fully anticipate, right? You were just caught up in the wonder and the amazement of it all, and dreaming about this child that you were going to have, and who you were going to be as a parent, and all of a sudden you have this child, and maybe they are nothing like you expected them to. Look like they behave nothing like you thought they would. They don’t like the same things as you. They don’t have the same interests. They maybe are inspired by different things. They maybe are angered by different things. And you think, “Where did this child come from?” We hear that a lot from parents. “Oh, they’re nothing like me. They’re exactly like my husband or my partner or my dad or my mom. And I have no idea how to parent this child. I thought they were just going to be a mini version of myself and that we’d get along beautifully, and it was all going to be adorable, social media posts and doing all of these things together. But it’s not, and it’s much more challenging than I thought.” And part of that is as a parent beginning to realize who your child is and who they are uniquely gifted to be, and that that might be vastly different from who you are, but when you can recognize them for who they are and the gifts that they have, and celebrate that, it’s a much more joyful journey. You and I have both had this experience. 

 

Kristina  06:23

Oh, absolutely 

 

Heather  06:24

you when you met grace. I remember coming to see you in the hospital and you just having really large eyes and saying, this child is mine and not who I thought she was going to be

 

Kristina  06:36

Absolutely. From the moment she was born, and they held her up for me to see. I went, “huh, that are you sure that that’s my baby? Because that’s not how I imagined her at all.” And what you spoke about, discovering who your child is is so important because we spend so much time trying to force our child into who we thought they’d be or who we hoped they would be before they ever arrived in our lives. And that process is a painful process for both parent and child, because we hold expectations for this little human that are not within their interest, within their gifts, within who they’re meant to be, and when we can let go of that and really settle into the pleasure of discovering who they are – it’s a pleasure. Doesn’t mean it’s always easy – settling into who they are and then figuring out how can we support and nurture their growth so that they grow into who they were designed to be?

 

Heather  07:47

So for me, I love to read. I love to learn. I have three kids, and read to all of them from basically birth, I remember sitting in the nursery with my oldest on my lap. He couldn’t have been more than three or four months reading children’s books to him. We did this routinely. I remember then him growing and crawling after his bathtub, and he would get so excited and go grab the books out of the little container that was next to the rocking chair, and he’d hold one up, so excited. And as that journey went on and he got into kindergarten, it wasn’t happening. He wasn’t learning his letters well, he wasn’t able to learn how those sounds formed words. And I thought, How can this be? How is this my child? I love to read. We’ve read to him for his whole life. He should be able to read Harry Potter by now. It should just happen. It didn’t just happen. And on that journey, we found out all three of my kids actually have dyslexia. But that was a whole thing. That was a whole thing to unpack and uncover. And you were along on that journey, absolutely and what did you find out? Well, I found out that I have dyslexia, which I didn’t know about. But it wasn’t just the unpacking of that discovery. It was also dealing with the grief that your child was not going to cherish the same thing that you have cherished, and that is reading and visiting lands you’ve never traveled to through, and also that his education was going to be a very different experience than mine. Yeah, I had a first grader who hated school that wasn’t easy for me, because I loved school, and I wanted him to love school because I knew he had a whole lot more of it. It was a lot more to come. And if we’re at six, seven years old and not loving it. Whew. It’s a long ways to 19 when we graduate. So these are the things that make parenting a marathon and not a sprint. It’s meeting your child where they’re at, meeting yourself as a parent where you’re at. At I had to reconcile all of that within myself, right? That grief of getting this child through school is going to be a challenge, and it is going to be a marathon. It is not going to be easy peasy lemon squeezy. We’re gonna work hard. There’s gonna be some grit involved, and there was, and he did it. He did it. He’s on the other end, you guys, he did it. He’s 20. He’s happy. He made it through school just fine. But that for me was something that I grieved a bit, that it was going to be a much different experience for him in school than it was for me. And we have all sorts of things. You’ve had different griefs on your parenting journey. We all will have them, but it’s who we wrap around us in those times, who we take with us on that adventure and can support us through it absolutely.

 

Kristina  10:58

And for your oldest, when you could let go of who you thought he would be as a reader and as a learner and as a student and celebrate who he is. He is amazing.

 

Heather  11:12

He is amazing, and it is being able to change that lens and look at how they’re each uniquely gifted and celebrating all of those things and helping them celebrate those differences and those things that make them uniquely them, because that’s what builds that confidence, and that’s what builds their inner voice, and when we as parents can support them in that, that’s when they fly, and that’s when we see them soar. And there’s great, great joy.

 

Kristina  11:45

So there’s letting go of the child you thought you’d have, and there’s also letting go of the parent you thought you’d be. Girl. I was gonna do all organic foods. I was gonna cloth a diaper. I mean, we were going to the beach a lot, and none of those things happened, which surprised me, because I thought I would do those things, and yet I didn’t. I didn’t do those things. And I have friends, right, that take all of their children, all four of them, to the beach a lot, and have a great time. And I’m thinking, I can barely schlep the stuff we need to the car and out to the grocery store, let alone trying to move all of the things to go to the beach with my child, who will then be covered with sand, and I’ll love it, because they like to be a sugar donut and roll in it. And we’ll never have a clean car again, right?

 

Heather  12:38

You’ll never have a clean car again anyway. Yeah, welcome to parent. Be honest.

 

Kristina  12:44

That’s so true. It is so true. But discovering who I am as a parent to this particular child in our family, who my partner is as a parent, also part of that journey and really trying to embrace instead of feel guilty about who we are. And one of the things I think about and one of the things that I recommend to parents, is to really see your journey as a parent in this adventure of parenthood as evolving and changing along the way. Because really, in this moment, I hope to be the parent that my child needs. Yeah, you’re really growing your children, and your children are growing us absolutely you

 

Heather  13:43

I distinctly remember we have property, and there’s woods. And Luke is my second born, and he, since he was very little, had a love of all things, critters, like frogs, bugs, snakes. He just loves nature. Still to this day, all of my kids are outdoorsy, but Luke loved the creatures. I remember him knocking on the front door and me coming to the door, and he had his little cupped hands and I opened the door, and he was probably three, and he put his cupped hands up to me and said, Mom, in here is a frog. He just peed on me. Can he live in the house? And I said, No, but I did pet the frog, and I did take the time to share in Luke’s great joy about the creature that he had found that had just peed on him. And then it wasn’t so long after that, and I told him that he couldn’t live in the house that I had gone in our lower level, and I had heard squeals. You know, we all know the squeals. It’s like, if there’s too much silence, you get worried, and then if there are these certain squeals of joy and laughter, you also get. Worried for very different reasons. So I went downstairs, where my boys bedrooms are with a bathroom in between, and they were having great delight. And what I could see was there were hopping frogs in the sink, and they had, we have these egress windows, and they had opened them up. And in those window wells were a bunch of frogs. They had brought them in the house. And, I mean, this is a moment in parenting where you think, I can really lose it here, right, because there are frogs in the sink, or I can just step back a minute and try not to hyperventilate and just watch what’s happening in front of me. And this is the thing that I think for me, took a lot of practice to be able to watch them in that moment and go, these brothers, look what they’ve done. I don’t love it. It is kind of hilarious, and I can appreciate it, but they’re gonna remember this forever. And like, I could just hear them flashing forward 15 years going, “do you remember that one time we cranked the windows open and had all the frogs in the sink?” and I couldn’t destroy that for them, even though everything within me just wanted to Lysol the whole space, like, let’s get all the frogs slime off of everything, everybody to the bathtubs, because that’s who I was as a parent, right? But to be able to find my composure and take the beauty in the moment, it’s also another moment where we would often, when the kids were little, go on family hikes behind our home, and I saw a snake rustling through the woods, and I bolted ahead, and I grabbed it, and I picked it up and said,” Luke, look, I found a snake.” And then I locked eyes with my husband and said,” Who even am I?”  Seriously? That’s love people. I did not touch snakes. I had no desire to touch snakes, but I loved the child that I brought into the world who loved snakes, and there I was chasing them down and apparently catching them.  Everybody has to live in the home, right? So there’s a point for me where I love to observe all the play, because we know play equals learning for littles, right? And you want them to play. And my son, Luke, always had the little people. I know grace.

 

Kristina  17:32

 Grace did as well, too,

 

Heather  17:34

Like the little people. And they could create a little village, and it would all be created, and it would spread out over a very wide amount of area right in the middle of the home, because they want to be where we are, right. They want to be in close proximity. So it’s like and now your village has taken over the hallway or the main walkway, and they would always have like community members in a fat in a puking dog. I mean, the detail was amazing, right? It was always there, and they never wanted to clean it up because they had to get back to play in the same play. And for me and my home, it was like, I was good until I wasn’t. Was like, one community member, too many, one dog too many, one little village home, too many. And there was a tipping point, and it was like, done. No more. I can’t do it. And I wouldn’t say those words to them. What I would do is take a deep breath and be like, this is okay. They have no idea what my tipping point is. In fact, I don’t even know what my tipping point is. I just know we’ve reached it. The window of tolerance has now closed. My capacity is diminished for lots of reasons, usually for me, it was, we’re transitioning right. We’re moving away from daytime. We’re getting towards evening, I need to make dinner and get these short people off to bed where I can have some peace and some quiet and some recharging that I think looking back, was probably my tipping point. So in those moments, what I did in my house was turn on a fun song, and music is something that we just always had in our home, playing partly because it calmed and soothed me, or it energized me. Music has that impact. It can be whatever you need it to be. But for my kids, when they heard certain music and it was real uplifting, I would say, “We’re going to take five minutes during the song, and we’re going to pick up as much as we can.” Kristina, this is going to probably be hard for you to hear. I didn’t care what bin it went in. Just put it in a bin and put the bin away. Get it off the floor, get it cleaned up. And they would go and go and go and go and go. And that was enough for me. The music is five minutes. It was a short window. They could do that, and they would all pitch in and help. And that’s that’s something that worked for us and our family.

 

Kristina  20:12

I love that you bring that up because they don’t know what the one Lego too many is, right?

 

Heather  20:19

No.

 

Kristina  20:19

And so for them-

 

Heather  20:20

I don’t think we do. 

 

Kristina  20:21

No, I don’t. I love your point about that, and you’re great that you didn’t say anything. I would say “this house is making me crazy.” 

 

Heather  20:28

Well, yeah, I had those moments too, let’s be honest-

 

Kristina  20:31

And then we need to pick up. But it really had everything to do with me and who I was in that moment, how tired I was, if I was feeling stressed, if I was feeling overwhelmed, that’s what it had to do with it didn’t really have to do-

 

Heather  20:46

And our tolerance,  right? Our ability to tolerate whatever was happening, because sometimes play can get really loud, and we can just be on sensory overload at some time, and you step on that Lego and you have a response…

 

Kristina  21:02

Yep. 

 

Heather  21:02

So in those moments, I think it’s really important to talk about as a parent, what can we do when we’re at the moment? What do you do? 

 

Kristina  21:12

Yeah. And what can you let go of? Right? I was just remembering with a friend that I used to spend hours, hours of my life while Grace was sleeping, separating the Legos by color, and I had all of these wonderful containers that I could separate the colors by size and by hue. And I thought, this is this is beautiful, because this is the way I like things. 

 

Heather  21:36

So this is how we’re different. 

 

Kristina  21:37

And won’t it help my daughter, when she needs to find a piece?

 

Heather  21:40

I feel like we need to tell them how we’re different. In my house, the Lego bins could maybe have, you know, other things besides Legos, perhaps some human hair, maybe a fingernail or two. I don’t know, like they probably had DNA in them. I didn’t care.

 

Kristina  21:58

I learned not to care. So that was one of the things too. It’s saying, “does it really matter?” I had to say that a lot to myself, because I loved organized and tidy. And if you came to my house now, you would say “you are a liar,” because I’ve had to learn to live with really asking myself, “does it matter? Does it really matter if the Legos are all mixed together? It doesn’t. And it gives me the opportunity to breathe and maybe practice a little mindfulness if it starts to make me twitchy that there are all of these Legos intermingled, or, heaven forbid, the Play Doh, the Play Doh, is all intermingled. Ah! It’s good. It’s fine. It’s great. But I had to get to the point where I could really let go of that and not be angsty about the state of how my child played and what she needed in order to engage in that imaginary play, which she’s so good at and always has been. It’s part of who she is. And that stretched my partner and I in figuring out how to match that creativity, and that wasn’t easy. So Grace, our daughter, she would wake up in the morning and she’d assign us a role like, “Good morning, mommy. Today you’re Jake.” Okay, I’m “Jake” for the day, and maybe daddy is “Sophia.” I don’t know. It could be whomever we are, and then we’re in those roles, and she decides who she’s going to be for the day. And we had to play those imaginary roles. At dinner, she actually named the first and middle finger of my husband. They were “finger one” and “finger two.” And she would ask at dinner many times “Can I talk to finger one and finger two?” And he’d pull out those fingers and they’d have little conversations. It’s who she was, right and wildly imaginative. But that also meant that she was unable to be contained in her play or in her imagination, and that we were better off rolling with that than saying, “I don’t feel like being Jake today. I just want to be mommy,” because that’s how she needed to play.

 

Heather  24:08

Mm hmm. And what did that create within her, and what did that nurture within her? Like we don’t know, right? When we’re allowing that imaginary play, which we know is huge for executive function development and for so many frontal lobe things that happen with the brain: self regulation…

 

Kristina  24:31

Planning…

 

Heather  24:32

All of it. Like all of that  stems originally from the ability to play imaginatively and all that wild creativity, and we recently have just talked about how kids score at NASA’s level of genius to the tune of 95% when they’re five years old, but as they grow right and they get into school now and things like that, creativity goes way, way down. So being able to be Jake and be Sophia in finger one and finger two is going to build that creativity and nurture something in her that really is uniquely her and a way to grow her into her best self. I’m sure all of that has helped her get to where she is today. 

 

Kristina  25:24

Oh, and it led to a lot of laughter in the moment, and a lot of laughter when we look back and say,” Oh, remember when?”

 

Heather  25:30

And a lot of probably being able to breathe really deeply. I remember she went through a slime phase. And you would call me and be like, “it’s dripping off the table. It’s dripping off the chairs.” Everybody goes through the slime phase. Just endure it. It has some hang time. 

 

Kristina  25:45

I was gonna say that had some big hang time in my house. 

 

Heather  25:47

Yep. It does pass, but it does have some hang time. So I will tell you one of the strategies that I used in my home. My husband used to travel a lot when my kids were little, and so I would have these three little people with all of their individual needs, and I would be doing this for extended periods of time, getting them where they needed to be, doing all of the things with little break. And one of the things I didn’t even know really I was doing this until my child imitated it. So apparently, when things would happen in the home, for example, I remember I went to the laundry room, I came back and, you know, there are messes made in this particular mess, Zach came to me and said, Mom, you gotta come and see what this kid did. “Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah.” Apparently, when I would get stressed out, I would sing the Hallelujah chorus to myself out loud, but I didn’t realize they were necessarily tuning into that. And that’s a really important point to make: our kids watch us, and they hear us, and they see what rattles us, and when we’re rattled, it rattles their sense of safety and security. But Zach had put together that, “Oh, mom sees the flour all over the wood floors. When she comes out of the laundry room,” that’s what I walked into. He’s like, “you gotta come and see what this kid did.” And the very cute little cherub self sat and a big pile of flour all over the floor he had pulled out of the pantry, and Zach singing the Hallelujah chorus. And you don’t even realize some of those things until you see your child mimic them. It’s like, “where did I do that?” “Yes, I do.” It was a coping mechanism I’ve come to learn. And I used to sing to myself, there was a country song I think, by Trace Adkins, like, “you’re gonna miss this, you’re gonna want this back. You’re gonna wish these years hadn’t gone by so fast.” And I would say in my head, “No, I’m not!” Until I could get to a better place, and I’d keep singing and thinking that through. My husband and I will still say, “We’re gonna miss this. We’re gonna miss this.”

 

28:13

And it goes so fast. I just said the other day for the first time, “yeah, my daughter’s a freshman in high school.” And I caught my breath. I thought, my daughter’s a freshman in high school.

 

Heather  28:27

When did that happen?

 

Kristina  28:28

When did that happen? We were just collecting Winnie The Poohs, right? And and now she’s a freshman in high school, and it’s going by so fast.

 

Heather  28:40

Yeah, those days we say a lot like the days can feel really, really long when you’re in the midst of it, because it is tiring and exhausting and a lot of work, and we have lots of things going on, but the years are short. “The days are long, but the years are short.” And it is so true. I say that as a parent of a 20 year old now and an almost 17 and an almost 14 year old, it goes by quickly, and we are going to miss it. I had “the summer of tears” two years ago. That’s what my husband and I call it now, “the summer of tears,” where we would go to where we spend a lot of time in the summer, and I enjoy walking. And I would get back from my walks, and my husband would say, “Are you okay? Are you okay?” And it was for the first time, I was realizing we weren’t all there together. My oldest had a job. We weren’t there as a family. Lots of transitions, right? These things happen, like, you’re gonna have that preschooler go to kindergarten, and then kind of everything has to shift for siblings, for parents, like, how do we do this now? And for me, it was very much that awareness of, we’re not all together. He’s back at home. He has a job. He’s more independent. So that became “the summer of tears.”

 

Kristina  30:07

Yeah. Oh, I resonate with that big time. I’m sure lots of us do. You know, when you think about the joy in the parenthood journey and the struggle as well, they go hand in hand, but comparison is you often like to say-

 

Heather  30:40

The thief of joy-

 

Kristina  30:42

The thief of joy. 

 

Heather  30:43

It truly, truly is. One of my greatest and best surprises as a parent, was having my friend group, my and my husband’s friend group, embrace our children, love our children, support them, cheer them on for who they are, individually and uniquely, and just show interest in them. That has been…there are many great joys as a parent. That has been one to me that was really fulfilling, because it’s so contrary to what we often see in society. A society that’s all about getting there faster, getting there quicker. Super competitive. And don’t get me wrong, I love competitive. I’m as competitive as the next person. Put me in a game, I want to win, right? But that’s when there’s a game. These are our children, and it can be so tempting to think, “Oh, she’s already crawling. Mine’s not crawling. Is there something wrong? She can ride that scooter like crazy. We’re not even like good at walking yet. How can she be that good on that? How is he so good at soccer? How does he move his body like that?”  My oldest went to play soccer and was just all about the relational. I mean, this kid could sell, today, water to a whale, and he just wanted to, like, “Hi friend, you want the ball? Okay!” And I’m like, “that’s not what we do. That’s not how it goes.” 

 

Kristina  31:44

Yeah. 

 

Heather  31:46

But that’s who he is, and that’s okay.

 

Kristina  32:32

Right.

 

Heather  32:32

And to have friends that are like, “but look at how great he is. He’s just so sweet that skill is gonna serve him really well.” He might never be a soccer player, and that’s okay. 

 

Kristina  32:43

And I often say too that from the moment you realize that a child is entering your family, however they come, there is guilt and there is fear: guilt that we won’t do right by them, right? That mommy and daddy guilt is for real, and the fear that they’re not going to be okay, that as they’re growing and as they’re developing, that it’s not happening right. 

 

Heather  33:16

And all the judgment…

 

Kristina  33:17

All the judgment.

 

Heather  33:18

 I feel for parents, even more so than when our kids were little, it existed then there was a ton of pressure parents are very strategically marketed to. They try to convince you you must do this to get there faster. Your child should be doing this, your child should be doing this. This will get you there more quickly. Tune all of that out. Littles really just need to play and be loved and feel safe and secure. Those are the things required for growth and healthy development and brain development.

 

Kristina  33:51

They don’t need to read at 18 months. 

 

Heather  33:53

No, please. No.

 

Kristina  33:54

All of those programs that they sell to us, right? They want us to buy because we’re afraid that otherwise, our child will be behind. Our child will never make it. They need to be counting by this time. They need to be able to read by this time. And that’s a different timeline for every child. And when somebody tries to tell you that this is the distinct path and timeline for that skill development, it instills fear and a lot of pressure, like you were talking about, and then we start pushing our children beyond where they are developmentally for where they are on their path, and trying to get them to perform, because it’s going to alleviate our fear over them.

 

Heather  34:37

And it’s something that they can’t understand.

 

Kristina  34:40

Right.

 

Heather  34:40

They have no idea what’s happening in those moments, and so little understanding.

 

Kristina  34:47

Well, and I think often too, this comparison and it will happen, and you have to really let go of that, right? We have to learn to let go of that judgment that other people might have. Like, “Oh, he still has a passy?” or “she’s not talking yet?” 

 

Heather  35:06

“You’re using formul?”

 

Kristina  35:08

Right. Right. 

 

Heather  35:10

It’s everything. It begins immediately. So much judgment. And if you can tune it out, I call it noise, right? You just tune out the noise and you do your own thing, and you focus on your child and yourself and that relationship. And if the noise can fall away, it will be a much more joyful journey.

 

Kristina  35:32

 Absolutely

 

Heather  35:33

For parent and child.

 

Kristina  35:34

We have a culture now that, you know, we have these big plans for our children. Again, not necessarily focused on who the child is, but on who we hope they’ll be. I want them to play in the NBA, so we’re going to start with basketball drills when they are wee little babes. And we’re going to schedule them into all kinds of different things. We have children whose lives are so scheduled into activities and different groups that they’re a part of, that they don’t have time to just be, which is a really important state,  to just be and to be able to engage in that imaginary play.

 

Heather  36:17

They say it takes 30 minutes, really, for kids to get into what we refer to as deep play, because they have to look around a bit. They have to see what they want to do. And we live in a world that wants everything to just happen quickly and fast. And we try really hard at ODC preschools to preserve childhood. That’s how I like to think of it. We believe in these magical, wonder filled moments in every child’s childhood, things that they’ll remember, the play, the great joy of their teachers celebrating as they build skills. But the world wants to move quickly, and it wants everybody to get there ahead of everyone else. And so when we talk about comparison being the thief of joy, it really takes intentionality, sitting down with whomever is on this parenting journey with you and talking through what do we want? What are our great hopes? For me and my husband, we wanted to have independent, community-loving, family-loving children. We’re a family of faith. That was also a really important component to us, but we wanted to raise kids who could function independently, who felt capable and competent and secure, but also deeply connected and felt like they belonged to our family, to their community and to this world, and that they could set out each day with a goal of making it better. I say that to my kids still, to my 20 year old as he leaves to go to work, “make it a great day. Be awesome today. Go and be the person that leaves the place better.” That was another thing we often said to our kids, when you go somewhere for youth group, or to someone’s home or to a gathering like leave it better than you found it. Help clean up, you know, all of those little things. Sitting down and figuring out what you’re going to model as parents, but also how you’re going to grow this in your kids. And so often we think it’s the words that come out of our mouth, right? And it’s really our actions that speak to them more loudly.

 

Kristina  38:50

And what you just spoke about, Heather, and I love this is the shifting of your vision for the end game, right? Who we hope our children will be in this world, as opposed to what we hope they’ll accomplish, right? And the accomplishment comes as it is intended to come for each individual. What is success? I don’t know it’s going to be different for everybody. But instead of focusing on that, focusing on raising this unique child to be who they were designed to be, to support them, so they know that they are loved no matter what. I always say to Grace, “There’s nothing you could say or do, not say or not do, that would change how deeply I love you.” And it’s important that our children can settle into that. They don’t need to perform to get our love. They just need to grow into who they are, and on this adventure in parenthood, that is the foundational key: discovering who your child is, who you are as a parent, letting go of the competition and comparison-

 

Heather  40:05

All the noise.

 

Kristina  40:06

All the noise. And then really building your village, because it is not a journey to take on your own. It is a journey and an adventure that you want to have people surrounding you and your child. You spoke about this earlier, about how you and your husband really surrounded yourselves and your children with your friends who embraced the children that you have for who they are, and were there to love, nurture and support you as parents.

 

Heather  40:42

And we all did that for each other, which just created not only our family of belonging, but then this broader “family.” And I’m using air quotes like we just gathered frequently, and there would be 20 kids ramming around the property, and we would eat meals together. And I remember one time specifically we had returned from vacation, and it was like a Thursday night, and I just shot a group text out that said, “We just returned, but we miss you. I’ve got, like, a brick of cheese. What can y’all bring? Can we gather for dinner?” And they were like, “seriously, yeah, let’s do it.” And so around a brick of cheese and whatever else, because the house was empty, right? We had no food in there. We had been gone, but we managed to pull it together. And it wasn’t necessarily about the food, it was about the companionship. It was about being together. It’s about doing life together, and if we can get to that place, oh man, it’s just such an amazing journey. And I think back to some really major milestones in my kids’ life, right? High school graduation. Making profession of faith in our home church. Having the support. Baptisms. All the way back right to baptisms of our children. Just so many key moments: birthdays, the first time my son went out to Colorado for 10 days. This was a kid who wouldn’t go overnight, you know, and all of a sudden he’s gone for 10 days to Colorado. Just big things that we could celebrate and that we could be honest with each other, truly honest. 

 

Kristina  42:35

Because it’s not just the happy celebrations. It’s also those dark times where I think

 

Heather  42:41

You have worries.

 

Kristina  42:42

Oh.

 

Heather  42:43

There are concerns. Every parent has them. Every child is working on something. And when you can honestly share with one another what those worries are and feel supported and raised up, that’s what keeps us going. 

 

Kristina  42:55

Yep. I often will say you need to be able to phone a friend when you’re on the ledge because of a fear you have. And I remember calling you many times over the years to just say, “I don’t like my kid right now. Is this who she is? I don’t even like her right now.”

 

Heather  43:15

I remember you being like, “she is not sleeping. She is not kind. We are kind people. Why is my child unkind?” And I’d be like, “Kristina, does she have an ear infection? Grace? Does your ear hurt? Yes. She’d be like, goodbye, I’m going to the doctor.”

 

Kristina  43:36

But in those exhausted moments, right? To be able to reach out to somebody else and say, “I am not a perfect parent. There’s no such thing. I do not have a perfect child. Again, no such thing. But to say “I need somebody to ground my reality.  Remind me

 

Heather  43:53

My child is a good child. They are kind, but their ears hurt.

 

Kristina  43:57

Right. There’s something else going on,

 

Heather  44:00

They’re in pain and then they’re mean,

 

Kristina  44:02

Yes, and you’re exhausted. So surrounding yourself with that village. And we’re making it sound like it needs to be a lot of people, it really doesn’t. You just need a few. I think as children age, they hear things differently from their parent than they do from another trusted adult who’s been with them through their life and loves them for who they are. And I’ve done that with other friends too, where it’s like, “Hey, would you just have a chat with my daughter about X, Y and Z? Because she doesn’t really want to talk to me about it.” And I love it when we have those conversations. And I’ll hear about what one of the people in my village shared with my child, and I think that’s exactly what I have told her, but she heard it differently from you. 

 

Heather  44:52

I think I remember one of those moments and speaking with Grace and her being like, “yeah, that’s what my mom says.

 

Kristina  44:59

Yeah-

 

Heather  45:00

Say something. “Yeah, that’s what my mom says too.” I’m like, “sweetheart, yeah, your mom, she’s a real bright lady. She knows what she’s talking about, yeah, yeah. I guess that’s probably true,” but they do hear it differently, 

 

Kristina  45:16

Yep, they sure do. So when we think about this adventure in parenthood and discovering who your child is, discovering who you are as a parent and as you evolve as a parent, continuing to learn about who your child is at this phase and how to really nurture and grow them into the person they were created to be when we let go of the noise and surround ourselves with people who love us and love our kid, and it doesn’t have to be your family, they can be part of it or not. We all have different kinds of families, but I’m grateful that we have the chance to get together and to talk about these things so that we can be part of your village, that we can be part of this group of people that are sometimes stuck in the weeds of parenting, but are here together, and can be resources and support for each other along the way. 

 

Heather  46:16

And sometimes, let’s be honest, we’re head first in the mud. 

 

Kristina  46:19

Very true, very true. You cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel. 

 

Heather  46:23

You just need to be yanked out, hosed off, fix your hair,

 

Kristina  46:28

slap a little lipstick on, and here we go out the door. Yep. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up: Adventures in Parenthood. I’m Kristina-

 

Heather  46:41

and I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  46:46

Until next time- see you on the trails.  The Gear Up: Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell,

 

Heather  47:03

The ODC network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

 

Kristina  47:11

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  47:23

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature to learn more and get involved go to www.odcnetwork.org.

Show Notes

Episode 1: The Parenting Journey, Part 1 of 2

SUMMARY

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of proactive parenting and building strong attachments with children. 

They emphasize the significance of rituals, such as family meals and bedtime routines, in fostering connection and resilience. 

They share personal experiences, like prioritizing family meals despite busy schedules and the impact of one-on-one time. 

They highlight the importance of modeling positive behavior and consistent values, such as generosity and respect, to help children develop these characteristics. 

The conversation underscores the need for intentional parenting to create a secure and loving family environment.

Setting the Course for Parenting

“We want as a family to have a destination, and then we want to build our map on how to get to our destination because, if you don’t have that route charted, you end up wherever. You end up floating around, right? And lots of times you think, ‘how in the world did we end up here? How did we get here?’ And then you have to try to roll it back. Rolling it back takes a lot longer than figuring it out on the front end, right? It’s always so much more powerful to be proactive than reactive.” – Heather and Kristina

  • Kristina introduces the first episode of the two-part series on the parenting journey, emphasizing the importance of being proactive rather than reactive.
  • Heather discusses the significance of building strong attachments and connections with children, highlighting the need for rituals that fulfill the deep need for attachment and connection.

 

The Importance Attachment and Connection

“Paying attention to that attachment and being mindful of and attending it over the years is really important, and lots of people don’t even think about it…

And understanding that children come into the world wired to only take direction from those they’re connected to and securely attached to, that’s a really important thing to know, that’s a safety mechanism. So when we’re securely attached and connected to our children, we’re going to get more cooperation.”

 

  • Heather explains the concept of having a family mission statement to anchor the family’s values and provide a clear direction.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of secure and safe attachment for children, emphasizing that it is more important than food or water.
  • Heather highlights that children need strong attachment to primary caregivers for survival and cooperation, and modeling positive behavior is crucial.
  • Kristina and Heather share examples of how they built foundations of attachment and connection in their families, such as family meals and one-on-one time.

 

Building Rituals and Connection

  • Heather shares her experience of prioritizing family meals despite a busy schedule, emphasizing the importance of intentionality and planning.
  • Kristina discusses the challenges of having a traveling spouse and the importance of one-on-one time with her daughter.
  • Heather and Kristina talk about the significance of rituals in building connection and belonging, such as bedtime routines and moments of gratitude.
  • Heather explains the components of a good ritual, including touch, eye contact, closeness, and playfulness, and how they help children feel loved and connected.

 

Modeling Positive Behavior and Resilience

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of modeling positive behavior and the impact of inconsistency between words and actions.
  • Heather shares an example of how she and her husband modeled prayer and gratitude through family rituals.
  • Kristina recounts a story about her daughter running away and the importance of reassuring her child that they belong to each other.
  • Heather emphasizes the role of the village in providing connection and support, even if children are not living with both parents.

 

Laughter, Music, and Family Mission Statements

  • Kristina and Heather talk about the importance of laughter and music in their home, with Heather sharing how she uses humor to cope with stress.
  • Heather shares her love for family mission statements and how they help reinforce positive messages in the home.
  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of knowing where the family is headed and the characteristics they hope their children will embody.
  • Heather shares examples of family mission statements that emphasize hard work, sacrifice, and love, and how they help guide the family’s values and behaviors.

 

Intentional Parenting and Character Development

  • Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of being intentional about the values and characteristics they want their children to embody.
  • Heather shares an example of a father who realized the importance of modeling hard work and responsibility from his own childhood experiences.
  • Kristina and Heather emphasize the need to give children opportunities to practice and develop these characteristics, such as chores and responsibilities.
  • Heather highlights the importance of calling out positive behaviors in others and using everyday moments to model and reinforce desired characteristics.
  • Heather shares a personal story about a friend’s child needing reassurance that their best is good enough, highlighting the importance of unconditional support.
  • Kristina and Heather encourage parents to think about their family’s foundation and the characteristics they want their children to embody.
  • Kristina and Heather thank the listeners for joining them on their parenting journey and emphasize the importance of being proactive and intentional in parenting.

 

Further Reading 

Attachment and Connection:

Gordon Neufeld on the importance of attachment

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

 

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals:

Family Rituals – why are they important?

 

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 1: The Parenting Journey, Part 1 of 2

 

Kristina  00:00

Welcome to the first episode of Gear Up: Adventures In Parenthood. Today we’re kicking off a two part series on the parenting journey.

 

Heather  00:07

In this episode, we talk about setting our course as parents and why it’s so crucial. We like to say it’s better to be proactive than reactive, and though it might be hard, it’s never too late to get back on track. When we veer off course, that will happen for all of us. 

 

Kristina  00:23

We also talk about the importance of building strong attachments and connections with our kids, and why this foundation is so vital at every stage of parenting.

 

Heather  00:31

We share a few of our favorite strategies we use as clinical social workers and as parents, like strengthening connections by building in rituals that fulfill that deep need for attachment and connection.

 

Kristina  00:44

We also talk about modeling positive behavior for our children, although we all know that’s much easier said than done. 

 

Heather  00:50

It absolutely is. This parenting journey is a marathon, and this is the start of an ongoing conversation we really hope helps you all on your journeys. Welcome to Gear Up: Adventures In Parenthood,

 

Kristina  01:08

a Podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma,

 

Heather  01:21

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re Support Service Directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

 

Kristina  01:44

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

 

Heather  01:48

Are you ready?

 

Kristina  01:50

Let’s hit the trails.

 

Heather  01:56

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

 

Kristina  02:08

The ODC network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

 

Heather  02:16

Please visit www.odcnetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.  

 

Heather. 02:26

We come into this parenting journey, and sometimes you can think, “How do I know what to do? How do I know where to begin?” So today, we want to talk about how you build a good foundation for your family. It might be like a family mission statement. That was a thing I feel like that had its turn some years ago, and I think it still has real merit, because it helps you be anchored and what’s important to you. And if you can think about it in a picture, if you’re, we’ll talk when we go into discipline, about the captain of the ship, right? This is a concept that we love to talk about. But if you think about a ship out at sea, big waters, and it’s just bobbing around, and there’s no real destination in mind, and there’s no map, because you don’t really have a destination, right? So you’re just kind of floating out there. You’re not really anchored in anything. We want as a family to have a destination, and then we want to build our map on how to get to our destination because-

 

Kristina  03:33

If you don’t have that route charted, you end up wherever. You end up floating around, right? And lots of times you think, “how in the world did we end up here? How did we get here?”

 

Heather  03:43

How did we get here? And then you have to try to roll it back. Rolling it back takes a lot longer than figuring it out on the front end, right? It’s always so much more powerful to be proactive than reactive. So today, let’s talk about some of our family values, how we built our foundations together. It’s important that we know that attachment and connection are of primary importance to children, young children, infants, they need us immediately, right infancy, they need us to literally get them through life and keep them alive, right? But even surpassing food and water, all of us as humans need connection and attachment. Children need it surpassing the need of food and water. So that is a really important thing that we always just want to leave in the back of our mind as we’re thinking about, how are we going to build our foundation? What are our family values? If you can focus on things that build connection, you’re going to be winning.

 

Kristina  04:53

When you think about it, really think about the fact that that secure and safe attachment is, to caregivers, is more important than food or water. You would never withhold food or water.

 

Heather  05:08

Well makes me think survival, right? Lately, all need food and water to survive. We also need strong attachment to our primary caregivers.

 

Kristina  05:18

So paying attention to that attachment and being mindful of and attending it over the years is really important, and lots of people don’t even think about it.

 

Heather  05:27

And understanding that children come into the world wired to only take direction from those they’re connected to and securely attached to, that’s a really important thing to know, that that’s a safety mechanism. So when we’re securely attached and connected to our children, we’re going to get more cooperation. And what we model for them is so important.

 

Kristina  05:55

Absolutely, they learn more by what we do than by what we say. And boy, does it cause upset when our words and our actions are not congruent, right? Then children don’t know what to think. You say one thing and yet you do another. You say, “honesty is really important. We can be honest with each other. We can be open, truthful.” And then they overhear you talking to a telemarketer in a way that is not truthful and is not honest and open. And there’s that. 

 

Heather  06:28

It cracks your foundation. It cracks your foundation, right? So the question and the mind, oh, except for right? So we’re honest, except for one, right? It cracks the foundation. It’s confusing. So let’s talk about some of the ways that we built those foundations in our home. One thing that was really important to me was family meals, and it’s not always easy to do. My husband owns a business and when my kids were real little in the process of very much building that business, which takes a lot of blood, sweat and tears, especially in those first five years, even 10 years, to build that business. And so it was long hours I had completed my graduate degree. We had this one little guy in 2003 and we weren’t particularly used to having family meals just because of life. I had always been in grad school and night school and had homework and was worth reading and studying, and he was working on building his business and long hours and all of that. So all of a sudden, we had this little person that we felt like we needed to begin modeling for from the very beginning. And so we decided together that family meals were going to be something we would do, even if it meant he had to go back to work afterwards, which isn’t necessarily ideal or easy, but because we decided it was important to us, and that’s who we wanted our family to be, we made it work, and so we would gather, and that’s something that has stuck with us in by golly, 20 years later, that that little guy that we started doing that for is now 20, and it had to flex and adapt over time, because as kids grow, they get busy. There’s youth group, there might be sports, there’s lessons, there’s all sorts of things that pull us away. But as long as I could, and I remember saying, I remember this just popped in my head at this moment, a piano lesson teacher saying to me, “good for you for protecting your dinner hour “because she had a slot. And I was like, “I can’t do it right? Like it’s, it’s, I’m just gonna hold on to family meal time as long as I can. I’m so sorry.” And she was like, “Oh, I totally respect that.” And we figured something else out. But it takes that kind of planning and thinking, right? Because it’s not always easy.

 

Kristina  09:02

And it was so beautiful that you were able to make that work. And it did take intentionality, and it did take shuffling of schedules and saying no to some things to be able to do. Sure does. And I’ve always heard, right? That those family meals are so important, but for my little family, it wasn’t possible. My husband traveled for work and would be gone for weeks at a time. He works with Asia as well as the United States, so he’s kind of always working, and to be able to have him home at a time when we could eat together as a family just has never been something that’s been possible with the way that our lives are structured. And so then it’s paying attention to, if we can’t do that, what are the other ways that we can build and strengthen that attachment within our family? And one of the things that we’ve focused on, especially with my husband, traveling so much, is being able to have that one on one time with my daughter. Now she’s an only child. You might think, of course, you can have one on one time with your daughter, but living in the same space, in the same time is not the same as having one on one focused time with a child. And when there are more children, it becomes an even trickier thing. My parents, who did some amazing parenting things growing up, had four kids, so I have three siblings, and what they did each night was, each night, one of the siblings got to, “stay up late”, which in my family, really meant that instead of going to bed at seven thirty, you went to bed at eight o’clock. And in that half an hour, if it was your night, to stay up late, you got to do that with mom and dad. And for that half an hour, you got to choose, will we do a puzzle. Will we play a game? Will we read books? Will we do a craft? You know, I love to do crafts. You got to choose, and you had the attention of both of your people during that time, and you didn’t have to share it with any other siblings or anybody else. And that was a beautiful way of building in that attachment time, that coming back to in the busyness of life, of coming back to who we are, who you are in this family, as each child had their night, and how important you are to us and how fortunate we are to be your parents. And that goes right into this important sense of belonging in your family, that each member of your family is important, that you each have a role to play, that your family would not be who you are without each person and everyone contributes in their own unique way to make this family who it is.

 

Heather  12:03

And saying those things out loud to your kids often, yeah, is how that becomes their inner voice, right? One thing that we used to do, our kids are bigger now, so bedtime is not as big of a deal as it is when they’re little, but we would always have this routine. And in our preschool world, right? We talk about routines and we talk about rituals. A routine is composed of the different parts of your day, so maybe it’s waking up and brushing your teeth and then eating breakfast and then heading out the door for what the day holds, and then coming back together at in the evening, at dinner time, and then maybe moving towards bath time, and then moving towards bedtime. Those are all parts of your daily routine. Rituals are the moments of connection, the moments that build the feelings of belonging and hopefully within the various parts of our day, when our kids are little, we have a ritual built in, right? You think about when you’re saying goodbye, if you’re dropping your kids off at school or waving them off at the bus stop, there’s probably a wave, there’s probably a kiss, a hug and embrace. That’s your ritual in that moment at the dinner table, our ritual was a moment of gratitude, and we’re a family of faith, so there was prayer involved, and it was one of the key ways that we modeled prayer for our kids, and then grew them in that skill, and then eventually they would begin to pray as well. But that was one of our rituals and our moment of gratitude, where we would just name something that day that we were specifically grateful for. We could do a whole episode on gratitude. I think we should hours of gratitude. I think we should. So I don’t want to say too much about that, but that was a ritual in that moment. So for us at bedtime, reading was one of our rituals, you’re snuggled up. We have a great ,probably a picture book and then eventually a chapter book when our kids were a little older. But it’s being together. It’s being close. A good ritual has certain components to it. There’s touch, so you’re close, there’s an element of closeness. There’s eye contact, so it’s focused time, and there’s connection, and it tends to be playful and light-hearted, right? 

 

Kristina  14:50

It doesn’t have to take a long time. People will say, “Well, I don’t have another half hour to do that.” It doesn’t have to be a half an hour. It certainly does not when you have those components. It’s the touch and the eye contact that and the playfulness and the playfulness, it doesn’t have to take a long time. 

 

Heather  15:07

You know, when we’re transitioning to a different part of our day, like, if it’s drop off at school or pickup is, it’s never a long process, right? You would get booted out of the pickup lane. Yeah, the drop off lane? Yep, absolutely, the carpooling. But those those moments are really important and meaningful to kids, and they set the tone for: am I loved, right? Am I cared for? Am I safe?

 

Kristina  15:37

Am I important?

 

Heather  15:38

Do I belong? Yes, all of those things, and we want the answer to always be “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,” so they need to be repeated often, and that’s why they’re rituals. But at bedtime, we would sit and we would snuggle in with the good book, and then eventually we would move them to the crib or the toddler bed or the big bed, whatever it was, at whatever age they were, and then there would be this moment of, “I love you so much.” Eye contact, right? “I’m so glad I get to be your parent. I was chosen to be your parent, and I feel so grateful for that,” and whatever had happened that day, I wanted my kids to have their head hit the pillow knowing I am loved.I am cared for. I am forgiven, perhaps right for whatever happened. And I needed as a parent to know that tomorrow was a new day too, and we could do things differently, and tomorrow would be a great day, and I would be so happy to see them. It’s a really beautiful thing to go to bed with that knowledge.

 

Kristina  16:52

We used to say to our daughter every night, “there is nothing you could say or not say, do or not do that would change how much we love you and how important you are in our family,” so that she could end each day with that reassurance, even if we’d had a really hard day. I mean doing these things, prioritizing the times that you have, those rituals of connection and attachment throughout the day does not mean it’s going to be an easy day, and yet it’s still important to do those things to as a parent, take a deep breath and get those eyeballs and say, “I Love you. This may be hard, but I love you.” I vividly remember the first time, and hopefully the only time when Grace ran away, when she ran away from home and she decided she needed to pack up her things and leave, because I had set a boundary. Grace is an amazing, creative child, and she loses things regularly, because as soon as she’s done with something, she just kind of tosses it behind her and moves on to the next thing. So she grew up with a lovey, which is this little, tiny, soft blanket that she would use to self soothe. She used it at bedtime. She used it throughout the day. And so I set a boundary that lovey had to stay on the main floor of our house, or her bedroom. No more taking it into the basement, because you know how this goes. You get to bedtime and where in the world is lovey? We can’t find it. She can’t go to sleep without it. I get frustrated. This is not the way we want to end the day. So I set a boundary. No more frantic searching for lovey right before bed. Lovey is not going to the basement. This was intolerable. I can hear her muttering about needing to find a place where she can take lovey to the basement, and she’s loading her little pink and purple Doc McStuffins little rolling suitcase, and I’m just kind of watching and listening to what she’s doing. And darn it if she did not head out the door and down our block, and my husband happened to be home at the time, and I’m panicking, right? Like I said, motherhood comes with fear and guilt, and I’m experiencing both at a pretty high level at that point, she doesn’t just make it down our block, she crosses the street and onto the next block. Okay, I am pursuing her surreptitiously, right? I’m she can’t see me, but I’m pursuing her. My husband’s much more relaxed about the whole thing. I was not so as she gets to that second block, that sweet little girl with that long, dark hair and that Doc McStuffins little suitcase, right? A big black SUV pulls up, and my heart is in my throat, and this is my worst nightmare. Somebody’s gonna snatch my kid. And this person that stopped was just checking at her. I mean, here’s this little kid by themselves on the sidewalk with their suitcase. And so I quickly caught up, and I said, “I’m the mom. I’m the mom. You know, we’re, we’re we’re okay.” And they pulled away. And I-

 

Heather  20:25

meanwhile, Grace was interviewing, “Do you have a basement? Would you let me take my lovey?”-

 

Kristina  20:29

She probably was. So I, I knelt down, and I I put my hands on her arms, and I I looked her right in the eyes, and I said, “Grace, no matter how hard things get, we belong to each other. You belong to this family, and we will always figure it out. No matter what, you belong to our family. Shall we go home?” Thankfully, she said, “Yes.” If she had not, we’d have more to the story, but we were able to return home and have this little talk about how it’s okay to be frustrated and disappointed and angry, and we also will always be together to work those things out as a family. And that’s part of that sense of belonging, of saying, no matter what, no matter what, you are loved without condition, and you belong.

 

Heather  21:25

Absolutely, and that takes modeling, even at Thanksgiving, right? Boy, all the extended family, yeah, yep. And that’s the important thing. Everybody’s family looks different. We have spouses and husbands and co-parents and all of that, and that’s wonderful. You may be a single parent, you can still have meaningful dinner time, right? You can still have all of these moments of connection. They might be shorter or smaller or look different than ours did, but the meaning behind them is still the same right? And the end result is still the same, right? Those children feel loved. They feel like they belong. They feel connected. And what we know is that well-connected, loved children are happier children, they’re more secure children. They have a solid inner voice. They’re more resilient. They are way more resilient, and that’s how you start to build that skill of resilience in them, by the belief in themselves, and that stems from being anchored securely into who they are in their family, right? And that they have great value.

 

Kristina  22:39

Building that firm foundation is extremely important to think about and to really pay attention as the years go by, and you were speaking of families come in all different all different shapes and styles and configurations and everything else. And if you’re a parent who shares your children with another household and other people who are parenting and raising your child, that can be something that a lot of people express concern about, like we’re doing these things at our house, but they’re not doing it at the other house. And then what does that mean for my child? If you are providing that consistent,as consistent as possible, firm sense of belonging and attachment when they are with you, that will hold them, that that places a route, that charts a route. You know where your ship is headed. You are not bobbing. You may be blown off course at time, because Heaven knows that happens, right? Life is not perfect. We are not perfect. But do you know what the route was? Can you get back to it? Can you reach out to your village for support and get back onto your charted route headed in the direction that you intended to head?

 

Heather  23:58

And for me and my husband, we both come from divorced families, and we certainly did not live with our grandparents ever, but they were a very tremendous source of connection and anchoring to both of us, and we didn’t even live with them, right? So you can even get that from your village, right? Which is a beautiful and comforting thought as well. Let’s talk about laughter and music. 

 

Kristina  24:28

Oh, girl, I take myself way too seriously, way too seriously a lot of the time, and you have really been an influence in my life, because you love to laugh, and you infuse your home with laughter and with music. And so that’s been something I’ve had to work on to not take myself quite so seriously.

 

Heather  24:50

I remember one time you coming to my house, and Grace had pointed the Nerf gun my way, and I thought you were going to hyperventilate. We know each other well, yeah? And I remember Grace apologizing, and I said, “Thank you, sweetheart, I appreciate that. You also need to know Mrs. Bouwman can catch a Nerf bullet with her teeth, because I have two boys.” And she looked at me like, “that’s some mad skills.” And then she looked at you like, 

 

Kristina  25:32

“You ruined all the fun.” Oh yeah,

 

Heather  25:37

It is true. And so for me, I think part of it was survival, honestly, because, laugh or cry, I’m gonna usually lean laugh, and part of it was just survival with three children and a husband who was growing a business and then traveled a fair amount, and so it was like, “we should just laugh in this moment and appreciate it for the glimmer of insanity that it is.”

 

Kristina  26:09

For sure. And now, you know, grace is 14, which is, we’ll talk about that at some point too, what it’s like when they reach these, you know, teenage years. But I remember in those moments, even when I’m kind of at my wit’s end, to laugh, and she laughs, and all of a sudden, we’re together again, even if we had been, you know, diametrically opposed to whatever was happening.

 

Heather  26:34

We’ve said in our house, and this isn’t as much when my kids were little, little, teeny, tiny preschoolers, but as they grew, they needed the reminder, “same team.” Yep, same team. Home Team. You belong to me. I belong to you. Same team. We’re on the same team. I love you. There’s nobody out there that loves you more than the people in this home and we are on the same team. And when I remind my kids, even when they’re in the heat of anger because they’re so upset because I’m so unfair, right, right? And that I can see them physically, their body language all shifts, and they’re like, “Yeah, same team.” And usually the response is, “I know. I know mom, “ and then we can get to a place of, “let’s, let’s talk about this.” But yes, laughter and music are so important. I want to share with you I do love a good family mission statement. I have a sign. We have lots of words in our house on the walls. Yeah, we do because I love them. And I love the idea that as my kids come home, even if they’re not looking at them or intentionally reading them, I know their brain registers the message. S one that I’ve always loved that we’ve had, one that hung in our dining room for a long time that said, “Haven: a place of safety and refuge.” We have one that is in our garage. As our kids got older and they were driving, and they would just always be coming in, and sometimes I had already retreated off to bed, but they always check in. But I want them to be greeted by something. And it says, “In this home, you will find hard work and sacrifice. Music is usually playing, and it speaks to the soul. Books are being read. Schedules overflow. The children are loved, inspired and supported to the fullest. This home may not be perfectly put together, but this home is where our dreams are made and where our struggles become our triumphs. “ And that really is how we’ve tried to intentionally raise our kids. We’re all going to have struggles. It’s what we do in the midst of it that matters. And how are we going to triumph? And you will be supported. Yep, you will be loved exactly as you are. We don’t demand perfection. I once walked into my home when we were having a gathering with friends, and there were some friends from out of town, and I walked into my own home, and he and his wife were standing in front of a credenza that I have in our entryway. And I looked over, and he had his arm around her shoulder, and he was like, “read that again, “ and they were looking at it was a canvas that’s on the wall, and it says, “In this house, your best will always be good enough.” Yes, because that was a message my son needed, yeah, and that my kids in general, needed, right? I’ve talked about how they’ve struggled in school and all have dyslexia, but they needed that message of as you are, you are good enough, and your best, we do expect your best, but your best will always be good enough. And I thought, “oh, something’s happening here.” I’m just. Going to go back out of my own home and let them have a moment. Yes, yep, let them unpack that on their own. 

 

Kristina  30:08

So as a family and as parents, do you know where you’re headed? Do you know where you hope to end up, what characteristics and values you hope your children embrace and how you live that out in your family, as you’re rearing children, is incredibly important. Otherwise, who knows where you’ll end up? It may be a wonderful place and it may be someplace you hoped to never visit, but knowing where you’re going will help you get to the right spot

 

Heather  30:39

Absolutely and it will steady your ship and make the ride a whole lot more enjoyable.

 

Kristina  30:43

So when you’re thinking about your foundation as a family, it can be important to zoom back out and think, who do we want these little people to be? What characteristics do we want them to embody? Not so much. I hope they’ll be a lawyer, or I hope they’ll hang drywall, whatever that may be. More about, what characteristics do we hope they’ll embody? And we’ve worked with families over the years, who, when we ask that question, the parents will say, “Well, I want them to be responsible and I want them to be respectful.” And yet, within their home, they tolerate a lot of disrespect and a lot of irresponsible behavior they’re not thinking about, “Well, how do I teach them to be responsible? Don’t they just magically grow into these responsible beings?”

 

Heather  31:35

Or they want them to be really hard working, right? But yet, they have a staff of four, right, right? The children aren’t having any skin in the laundry, and they’re not having any chores or responsibilities, because I think we had one dad that actually verbalized like, “Well, I don’t want my kids to have to do that. I had to work like crazy when I was young.” I said, “Oh, that’s really interesting. How did you learn those skills? Like to become the hardworking person that you are?” And it was like a light bulb went off, right? And suddenly he connected that his childhood was very much related to who he had turned into, right? And yet he was setting it up very differently for his children-

 

Kristina  32:21

But hoping they’d end up at the same place. Yes, right. So when you think about what those characteristics are for our family, we wanted, and we are working to help Grace grow into a generous, kind, accepting, compassionate, strong advocate, responsible, respectful, those kinds of things, and so then we need to be intentional about the things we’re deciding to do, the things we’re going to prioritize within our family, so that we’re steering our ship in that direction, not just hoping that she magically acquires those skills.

 

Heather  33:01

And you’re modeling, you’re giving her opportunity absolutely to see you do those things, and you’re also giving her opportunities to break into doing those things as well,

 

Kristina  33:16

And giving them a voice. So I will say to her often, “Grace, daddy is so generous. Wasn’t that kind that he did XYZ”  So because he is a very generous person, and we want our daughter to be generous too. And so calling that out, not saying, like, “Ooh, I’m so generous. Look at me, Grace.” But being able to call those things out, when you see them in other people who are within your village, it’s like, that’s what that is right there. And it makes you feel a certain way.

 

Heather  33:45

And i can really be just how you live, right? It’s how we speak to the people in the drive thru. Yep, it’s how we speak to the people when we’ve purchased a product that was not as we thought it was going to be, and then we try to return it. And it’s like a 12-step process that takes a half a day, right, right? How do we manage frustration ourselves? Because those children are always watching, they’re always listening, and they will always sell us out. Oh, and we don’t do it right?

 

Kristina  34:18

Big time.

 

Heather  34:19

“I heard Mommy swear today.” Charming.

 

Kristina  34:29

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up: Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina and

 

Heather  34:35

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

 

Kristina  34:40

Until next time-

 

Heather and Kristina 34:42

See you on the trails.

 

Kristina  34:46

The Gear Up: Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell. 

 

Heather  34:57

The ODC Network is a nonprofit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan. 

 

Kristina  35:05

Since 2000, the ODC network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

 

Heather  35:17

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature to learn more and get involved, go to www.odcnetwork.org.