Gear up: Adventures in Parenthood - Outdoor Discovery Center

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

The Power of Play:

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Understanding Temperaments:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

Disclaimer: ODC Network is not affiliated with the sources listed and may not share or align with all values or viewpoints of these sources. The inclusion of any source does not imply endorsement or agreement.

Episode 11: Discipline Series, Part 2 of 3

Kristina 00:00

In today’s episode, we’re continuing our deep dive into the world of effective discipline, not the kind that controls behavior, but strategies that help our kids develop skills.

Heather 00:12

Absolutely, it’s all about connecting with guiding and nurturing our little ones, rather than managing them, and a really big part of this is understanding our own emotional triggers. We all have them when we know what sets us off, we can intentionally respond to our kids with more patience and clarity.

Kristina 00:32

We also share a truly inspiring story about a preschool father who attended our in-person parenting classes two years in a row, he worked really hard to completely transform his parenting approach.

Heather 00:47

We had the privilege of seeing him become the dad he always wanted to be.

Kristina 00:54

His journey involved more than just changing his tactics. It was about changing himself first

Heather 01:00

By understanding that discipline began with him, he intentionally worked to become more patient and focused on forming a stronger attachment with his girls. This was a game changer for his family.

Kristina 01:14

I love that. It really highlights how personal transformation can ripple out and positively affect our relationships with our children.

Heather 01:23

It sure can, and it’s so important to know that it’s never too late to begin this.

Kristina 01:29

And that’s the essence of parenting. It is a longterm commitment. We’re not trying to control behavior. We’re actively modeling and then guiding our children to grow them into self-regulated individuals.

Heather 01:44

So join us as we dive deeper into some practical strategies that will help us embrace this journey. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

Kristina 01:58

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

Heather 02:11

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

Kristina 02:33

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

Heather 02:39

Are you ready?

Heather and Kristina 02:40

Let’s hit the trails.

Heather 02:46

This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool age students, their teachers and their parents.

Kristina 02:59

The ODC nNetwork is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives.

Heather 03:06

Please visit www.ODNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. Today, we will be talking about a dad that you and I have worked with who went on a journey for himself and his family.

Kristina

I love, Tom.

Heather

Yes, and Tom has been a gift to us, and he has really transformed himself into the parent that he’s wanted to become. I don’t know if he’d say he’s there yet, but oh, he’s come a long way.

Kristina 03:47

Yeah, he joined us in our parenting classes he attended two years in a row. He did. We offer parenting classes locally. We’re in Holland, Michigan.

Heather 03:58

And that was during a little known year called 2020, so it was a-that’s important to say, because it was a tricky year, and in lots of people’s lives, and there was lots of time at home, and if you weren’t the parent you wanted to be, you couldn’t get away from that in the home like you normally could during other times.

Kristina 04:23

It was an intense time in a lot of ways.

Heather 04:25

Absolutely, it was. And so Tom had expressed to us – this is amazing. I love this information – He would come, he would sit in the front row of class. He and his wife would be there. And I remember him at one class in particular. It was probably during our discipline series. And we were all spread out for lots of reasons then, right? And so I remember at this particular time he was towards the back, and he said, kind of with his head in his hands, “But how? How do I do this? I get some of the what I need to do. But how do I do this? Because I default back so easily to the things I don’t want to be doing. So how do I even begin? Where do I begin? I get that I have to know who I want to be as a parent, that I have to have an understanding of what my long term goals are for my children and my family, that I have to be anchored in foundational principles that we agree on. How, in the midst of all of it, where the emotions and the intentions are high, how do I do it?”

Kristina 05:49

Yeah, he had that wonder about: how do I discipline and how do I manage the times when I’ve been activated, when something that is happening has tapped me, and this other side of me emerges that I’m hoping won’t, but it does. How do I do that? Yes, that is exactly what he was saying, and it was a beautiful, vulnerable question for him to ask, and he was sincerely asking, and had quite a bit of emotion behind it. He did because he really wanted to do things differently, moving away from a punitive model, and trying to figure out, how do I incorporate all of this into our daily lives, and what do I do with my triggers? What do I do when things activate me and I respond in ways I was hoping not to.

Heather 06:43

And it took for him looking at kind of like we’ve talked about being the detective with our kids and going back to basics. He kind of had to do that within himself and explore how much rest mm I getting? How am I fueling my body. How am I setting myself up for success? How am I getting out any stress or angst? Am I working out enough? Am I maybe meditating and having focused time to practice being calm and being centered and breathing? I think those were very new concepts to him. We talk all the time about it. It begins with us. We talked last time about how I’ve never been able to control another human being, have you? No, we can’t. We can’t, right? And so all we can do is be the “captain of the ship” and be in charge, which means we have a voice of authority. It’s an assertive voice that we can scan the horizon. We can watch for icebergs or things that are going to get in the way of our path, and we can be proactive in changing our course to get around them safely, rather than being reactive after the ship has hit something right. And he had to do that, but he didn’t know how, and so he began on this: How do I begin with myself? And maybe get better rest and fuel my body differently, and read outside of what we had taught to gain further knowledge on what is this whole thing of attachment for kids? And, yes, I know it’s powerful, but why? And what is this whole concept of lagging skills and having appropriate expectations for two and four year olds? Yeah, what does that look like to have appropriate expectations and to set that up?

Kristina 08:56

Wow. Yeah. You said something earlier that I think is so important, and that is when you said you need to make space to practice these things, because it’s not until we really develop a habit of finding our calm so that we can share it with our children. We have to practice that. It’s harder to do when your buttons have been pushed. Oh, and if you haven’t practiced it prior to those times, it will be that much harder to avoid what you’re hoping to avoid.

Heather 09:33

If we’re waiting to practice in the heat of the moment, yeah, it’s going to be a much longer journey, because our our brain defaults to what we know and it wants what it wants. And when we get in our emotion center, you can guarantee those kids are going there too because we’ve led them there. Or they’re already there, and they need us to bring that calm. And we say they’re going to catch our calm, or they’re going to catch our chaos. And vice versa. Like it’s just how it works.

Kristina 10:26

So I just want to take a moment to talk about – this is a very crude way of thinking of the brain – but when you think about the brain in three basic parts: the part up front, your frontal lobe, which is our thinking brain, is where we control our impulses. It’s where we are able to make decisions. It’s where we are in control of our language and our behavior. That’s all up front.

Heather 10:56

Thinking, problem solving center, calm.

Kristina 10:58

Then if you move back kind of midway down the brain is our emotional center, and that’s where we go when we’re feeling strong emotions, when we maybe are triggered, when we’re in the midst of upset or fear or anger or anxiety, grief, yes, even joy. It’s not just the hard emotions, it’s all of the emotions are in that middle part. When we’re in the middle part, we don’t have easy access to our thinking brain. It’s why, when we’re upset, we say things and we do things we would never do if we were in our calm,thinking brain. But because we’re in that emotional center, things come out of us. We make threats that are ridiculous. On our honeymoon, I can be a bit of a back seat driver, which has to do with my own… it’s shocking, isn’t it? It has to do with my own anxiety. But I do offer a little bit too much input there. And we were on our honeymoon driving and apparently had been just a little too much. And Vince said, “I am never driving with you again.” And he was in his emotional state because I had tapped him a few too many times, but that’s a statement that I was like, “How’s that gonna work for us? I mean, we’re just starting our marriage, and we’re never gonna ride together? It’s gonna be fun. That’s fantastic. That’ll be great.” So when we’re in that part in our brain, we do and say things we wouldn’t normally do. It’s when you chuck a plate and break it. It’s when you slam a door. It’s when you do those things that you think, “Yeah, that wasn’t the wisest thing to do.”

Heather 12:36

And it’s the pivotal point when you’re in that brain state. You’ve got two choices: we’re going up, or we’re going down.

Kristina 12:43

And if you’re going down, you’re going to that third part, which is your survival state, right? And that is when, whether it is reasonable to anybody else, you feel your survival is threatened. And some of us have a superhighway from our thinking brain all the way back to our survival brain. And, in your survival brain, it really is about distancing and protecting yourself from the attack. Whatever the attack may be, it is trying to find safety and that protection. And oftentimes, when we discipline, we are in our emotional state. We may even tip into our survival state when we’re feeling like we’re being disrespected. Or when we feel like we are not in charge, and it taps things from our past. We are, at the very least, in that emotional state many times, trying to regain control of another person, the child in those moments is most certainly in their emotional state, and they more quickly will go to their survival state.

Heather 13:51

Because they’re little. They have fewer skills. They have fewer skills, fewer tools, absolutely. And less brain.

Kristina 13:58

It’s why it’s so important to practice. Because, like I said, some of us have superhighways that go from thinking to emotional to survival, and if we don’t practice the skills to keep us in our thinking brain during the times when we’re not triggered, you can bet it’s not going to happen when you are triggered. The other thing that I was thinking of, Heather, when you were talking about how to do this differently, you need to take a good, hard look at yourself and unpack some of those things. You also need to do that with a whole heap of compassion, because it’s easy to be like, “I’m not a good parent. I did that terribly. I’m doing these things that damage my child. I’m the worst.” And yet, when we’re unpacking where those things come from, saying “I can do it differently. It’s okay. I did the best I could with the skills I had,” and to move them from that place.

Heather 15:03

And it’s never too late. Never too late. And moving forward, I think, is the key there, because if we stay in that place of all of those guilty feelings, it doesn’t move us forward. No, it doesn’t help get us there.

Kristina 15:17

And it doesn’t help us guide our children, because we’re working from this place of this guilt and shame, absolutely.

Heather 15:35

So let’s talk about the ways that, when we want to make the significant shift, how do we go about finding our calm and keeping our composure to be able – we like to think of it as you had said, co-regulation. And children, young children, do not have the ability to self-regulate yet. And they just aren’t there. It would be an unreasonable expectation. So, when they become dysregulated for whatever situation it might be, and it seems like many of them are kind of trivial – Can’t get my mittens on. Why do I have thumbs? I hate my socks. It doesn’t feel right. I want the blue cup. Yes, the all of the meltdowns that can ensue. How do we begin in those moments?

Kristina 16:31

One of the things that I have noticed about myself on this journey is that breathing is really important to me. So is sleep. Oh, doogie, if I do not get enough sleep, everybody’s gonna feel it. So that’s a responsibility. I have to do my very best to ensure that I’m getting enough rest. So rest and breathing are super important. And I model that for my daughter and for others, when I am moving into the emotional part of my brain. When I realize I have been activated, I need three or four good breaths. Big breaths, in through my nose, out through my mouth. And, during that time, I think to myself, “Zoom out. Get a bigger picture of what’s happening. And consider what am I hoping to accomplish? What am I hoping to teach? What is my intention here?”

Heather 17:34

What am I going to model?

Kristina 17:35

Yep, what am I going to model? So, for me, that breathing is really important.

Heather 17:40

And it’s really hard. If we do this deep, deep breathing in front of children, we want to exaggerate when we’re teaching it to them, because it’s a belly breath. It’s deep breath where your belly is hopefully inflating and you’re holding and then it’s breathing out. It’s really hard for the child. It might take one or two or even three breaths, but it’s hard for them not to eventually capture that. As long as we’re not doing anything but breathing. If we give them words or other things to respond to, they will even make eye contact sometimes. But if we can be in their space, maybe not directly, looking at them, unless, of course, they’re being unsafe in some way, right? But breathing and modeling that for them, they eventually do begin to do it.

Kristina 18:32

They do. And as they get just a little bit older, I will say “I need to take some deep breaths. That will help me think.” And then I do that. Or “I need to take some deep breaths, because I’m getting upset.” And actually saying the words out loud is demonstrating to our children: you do have the option of doing some of these things. Breathing is what works for me. Moving to a different space is what works for my husband. He needs to move himself physically away from the intensity, and then he’s able to regulate himself. I have a dear friend for whom it is taking a walk. That’s what they need to do. When they become activated, they need to say, “I need to go take a walk.” A beautiful thing to do. Not “I need to go punch something.” I need to figure out a way to regulate myself,” which can be breathing, walking, listening to music, journaling, getting a big glass of water, doing things to help you return back to that thinking brain, so being able to figure out for ourselves, what is it going to be? Practicing that proactively so that we can do it in the moment, to bring ourselves back to our thinking brain, where we can share our calm, not invite them into chaos?

Heather 19:52

So let’s get back to Tom. And let’s talk about what, specifically, he did and how he began and really it became the deep desire to want to do it differently. So that was first. Then he began to look at himself. He didn’t immediately make changes that were going to impact his family. He began with himself and looking at the rest that he was getting, right? How much screen time he was taking in? And it was during a shutdown in 2020, so the reality was we were all heavy screen time, probably because there was only so many offerings for us. We couldn’t go out and be in the world like we were accustomed to. How much time was he spending outside in nature? And how was he connecting to the kind of spirituality that nature can connect us to?

Kristina 20:53

He really had to get back to those basics which we talk about when you’re searching for the “why” behind a child’s behavior. He needed to get back to his own base.

Heather 21:04

What was he putting in his body? How was he hydrating? What was he using to hydrate himself? All of those things are the immediate things he did within himself: increased physical activity, decreased screen time, became better at breathing and learned how to do it really well. Got more sleep, became intentional about getting that sleep.

Kristina 21:29

And he even implemented some type of little meditation practice he did where he could re-center himself back on who I want to be as a person, who I want to be as a parent and find that really centered space, which was helpful to him. That’s helpful for some people.

Heather 21:48

Absolutely. So as that all began, it took some time. But it began to change who he was, how he interacted with the people in his home, and his ability to cope, and his reactivity.

Kristina 22:07

Yeah, and I like to think about it as a well. We are each a well. And when we do those things, to take care of our basic needs, to tend to the things that help us feel well in the world, those are things that fill our well full of water, and when we’re full of water, we have plenty to give to others. What happens if we don’t pay attention to that or stay mindful of meeting those basic needs and finding the spaces to be able to proactively practice and to find your center is it’s like we have a leak. It depletes our well, it depletes our well, and then we don’t have it to give. So it’s kind of like the airplane, you know, when they’re doing the safety instructions at the beginning of a flight, they’ll talk about when the air masks descend, you need to put yours on before you assist somebody else. If you aren’t taking care of your basic needs, your well is depleted and maybe dry.

Kristina 23:13

And then how in the world can you give to the people that are around you? Give of yourself, give up your compassion, give up your nurturing. You don’t have it in you because you are dry.

Heather 23:27

It’s tapped. Absolutely. So that began to change for him. His well was getting on its way to being full. And then what happened was he realized, and we know this from all of our graduate therapy classes, that when there’s one role shift within a family, it affects everybody else. And so he began to see the power in his personal shift and the transformation that that was having in the family as children, because as he took care of himself and focused on rest and nutrition and activity and his mindfulness, he was more patient. He was more able to play for extended times with his daughter, the attachment and the connection with his daughters all increased, and it improved his capacity to manage stressful situations. He had a well to pull from, yeah,

Kristina 24:35

And because his well was full, not only was he able to manage those difficult situations in a way that he was hoping to, in a way that would benefit his children, and support their growth, he also was freed up to connect back into the joy of parenting, because his well was full and

Heather 24:56

To reap the benefits-

Kristina 25:01

So playing with them and laughing and marveling and who these little people are was something that wasn’t possible when you are, that-

Heather 25:11

He hadn’t experienced, right? He hadn’t experienced it. And he is, as we know him now, so passionate about getting that message to families: that it can be so joyful. It is really important. You as a parent can truly shape and grow your child into this wonderful person that they’re designed to be, anchored in what you created in your family. And that, for him, was really, really powerful, that he could have that impact, and he was doing it so differently. This was a two-year journey. He came to our classes two years ago. Yes, he did. Year one was when he was saying, “But how? And it was emotional. By year two, he was well on his way. And do you remember by the time we got to the discipline series in year two, I believe at the end of it, he spoke about how he had moved away from a punitive model in his home and from any physical anything. And he had actually had a conversation with a family member who cared for his children, and had used a punitive model. The caretaker. And he called them out and had a conversation. Very respectfully shared the “why” behind how he wanted them to be parented, and then asked for repair to be made to the child’s sense of safety and security. Do you remember that?

Kristina 26:53

I do. Yes, I sure do.

Heather 26:57

So it was a big journey. Yeah, it was not an easy journey,

Kristina 27:00

And he encountered, as we all do when we’re looking at how we raise our children, if we want to do it differently in the future, there’s grief that comes along with not being who we want to be during those times before we knew better, or maybe who they needed. Or before we had the capacity to even take a look at these things. There’s grief. And what I want us each to know is that, although there is grief, again, surrounding yourself with the compassion of “I did the best I could with the skills I had and the resources that were at my disposal. I’m choosing to do it differently. I can go back and say, I yelled a lot, or I X, Y, Z a lot, and I want to do that differently.”

Heather 28:00

That’s the very famous notion of “we do the best we can until we know better. And then once we know better, we do better.” And that’s the story of Tom. He wanted to do better, and once he knew how, he did way better. And he deeply celebrates that joy of parenting. I think you would probably say his most rewarding experience.

Kristina 28:31

Yeah, just even when you look at him, he is so full of joy, this energy. Yes, the new Tom. So, like most of us, he had things about his life that he needed to unpack, and we need to be able to do that unpacking out of the view of the children as we wrestle sometimes with the way we were raised or the belief systems that we adhere to, the belief systems that came into our being, sometimes without even knowing it. But to say, “Oh, I really do believe that children need to act x, y, z. Is that reasonable?

Heather 29:16

Is that developmentally appropriate? To begin to think differently?

Kristina 29:20

Yeah, do I need to forgive my parents? Do I need to forgive my teacher? What do I need to do within my own self to be able to embark on this journey, move forward? Yeah, and he needed to do that. And we each find, in the midst of it, our way to return back to the person that we want to be, the parent we want to be. For me, it’s zooming out and breathing. For you, you have a favorite song that you sing when you’ve become activated that helps you be able to return-

Heather 29:52

Kind of my inner mantra, Hallelujah Chorus. Or “You’re going to miss this. You’re going to want this back. You’re gonna wish this day hadn’t gone by so fast.”

Kristina 30:03

And retreating to your laundry room.

Heather 30:06

Yes, singing-

Kristina 30:06

The Hallelujah Chorus.

Heather 30:08

There was always a lot of activity in my home. There was a lot of children. They were very active children. It can get loud, and there were times where I had to reconcile within myself, wanting to do it differently, having done it not the way I wanted to probably being angry entirely at myself, and then retreating to my laundry room, which is not a nice place. I’m just gonna like – it’s a functional space. It’s in our mechanical room in the basement. And it has, like, concrete floors because it’s an unfinished space within the basement. And I’ve tried to, like, put rugs down, but I kind of got to the place where I was like, “No, this place is just going to be the place,” like, laundry is monotonous to me, right? It’s just, it doesn’t matter what’s happening in life, laundry is a consistent just like taxes, but it’s always there.

Kristina 31:09

I hate taxes, but I do love laundry, because we take the dirty things and we make them clean again.

Heather 31:16

Oh, that’s sweet. I’ve never thought of it like that. I hate it. It’s just always there. Yep, perhaps I should have thought of that sooner, but I didn’t, and it was just the place that I would retreat to and close the door. And I think because it kind of matched how I felt in the moment, like this is a dark it doesn’t stink, but kind of, I mean, the dirty laundry is in there. There’s also clean laundry, so whatever. But it’s like the imagery of, I was feeling cruddy on the inside, so I’m gonna go to the cruddiest place in the house, and I’m just gonna be in the crud. And I’m gonna dig my way out, sing my little songs. Gonna angry fold the laundry, I’m gonna find my way back to calm.

Kristina 32:08

Do you have a mirror in there? By any chance? Because mirrors help me the breathing and the zooming out and sometimes I literally need to look at myself in the mirror.

Heather 32:18

I think I would end up in hysterics.

Kristina 32:22

I don’t end up in hysterics. I give myself a little pep talk. Sometimes it’s like, “Look at your face. Who wants to see that face? Nobody. You look upset. You look angry. You look frustrated. So how about you change your face and make it match who you want to be?”

Heather 32:39

Because, gosh darn it, people like me.

Kristina 32:47

So I would also need to give myself a pep talk, like “You can do it. You can do it. Breathe. You got this. Here we go.”

Heather 32:54

Yeah, that was a very different experience than I was having in my laundry room. Yeah, was more swearing because nobody else was around, and it was getting the junk out. I think for me, angry folding laundry. My husband is an angry raker. Oh, he goes out and breaks the acorns, and the kids will be like, “Where’s Dad?” “Oh, he’s angry raking” because he looks very committed to the raking, right? And he’s all in his head, and that’s what the laundry room was for me. It was the place where I would go and be in my head and reconcile things.

Kristina 33:28

So finding your laundry room or finding your space with your mirror, where you can talk to yourself and fix your face. We each need to find that place or that atmosphere where we can have our little “Come to Jesus” moments.

Heather 33:44

And that’s really what it was. I say that the kids would be like, “Where’s mom? In the laundry room? Oh, don’t go in there.” You’re clear until she comes back out.

Kristina 33:53

But to have those spaces, because none of us are going to do this perfectly. We will all mess it up. We will all respond in ways that are not what we were hoping to do, because we’re human beings, and we need to find the place where we can get it out, and then we can forgive ourselves for doing it a way we didn’t want to do it, and then we can move on.

Heather 34:18

Absolutely. I never wanted to slam doors. We have solid doors, wood doors, in our home. And so, when they slam, they slam really hard. But what I learned is we also have our deep freeze, our large freezer chest in the laundry room, and it’s like you can’t slam it, and it’s just you can’t, but it could be satisfying to try, because there’s tension there, yeah, so I would lift it and be like-it would give me the tension that I needed in the moment for like, I just want to slam something.

Kristina 34:53

Yep. We were never allowed to slam doors growing up. And that was not something that was tolerated in my home. I. Really wanted to slam a door. Everything in me calls to slam so I said it’s fine if you slam doors in our house, but we live in a really old house where none of the doors really close very well, so it’s not satisfying at all. My daughter’s tried it sometimes, but it’s kind of like, whoa. They don’t really close all the way. So, again, like your freezer, maybe not as satisfying as it could be, but helps to get it out.

Heather 35:27

It did help to get it out. And it didn’t model anything destructive I felt like, but it gave me the pressure that I needed, and then could get me to a place of this is kind of ridiculous, so yeah, how about we turn the ship around? It’s kind of like your pep talk.

Kristina 35:47

Yeah, to myself with my bad face in the mirror. So I just wanted to share one more thing about Tom when he went on this journey and discovered who he wants to be as a parent, and began living that out, experiencing the changes he felt in himself and in his family, the changes he felt in his relationships with his girls, he would come back to us and say, “Everyone needs to know this. Everyone needs to know this. That it’s possible to do it differently, and what it means when you do.” Connecting back into that joy, having that secure attachment, powerful, very powerful. Not easy.

Heather 36:31

Not easy, but well worth and not done overnight. No, I mean, we said two year journey start to, I don’t know, I don’t think any of us ever say we’re finished. No, we’re just evolving and getting better. So long term commitment and so many powerful, meaningful moments with his girls over that time that made that journey so worth it.

Kristina 37:04

So that’s Tom, and I’m happy that we could share his story and what we learned from him. And hopefully what we can all learn about this process of becoming, again, the parent we hope to be, and specifically today talking about what that means for discipline. When we discipline our children. We’re going to continue this conversation, because discipline is a biggie.

Heather 37:30

Are we digging into some strategies next? That’s what we’re going to do next.

Kristina 37:35

Yes. So in our next episode, we’re going to talk about strategies for discipline, the things to avoid, the things to really lean into. Because before I was ever a parent, this is kooky, but I did it. Before I was ever a parent, I used to go to parenting classes, and others in the room would be like, “Why are you here? You don’t even have kids yet.” I’d say, “Well, this looks like the hardest thing on the planet to do, parenting. So I want to learn as much as I can before I ever enter that zone of being a parent.” And one of the things I would hear commonly amongst people who are already parents, when asked what’s the hardest part about parenting was “getting my kids to do what I want them to do.” Control. Yeah, getting kids to behave the way I want them to behave, that’s the hardest part is what I would hear often. So, we want to talk about, what are the strategies, not to control, but to help grow your child’s skills so that they are able to meet expectations that are placed on them that are developmentally appropriate. So I can hardly wait for that. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

Heather 38:54

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until next time.

Heather and Kristina 38:59

See you on the trails.

Kristina

The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

Heather 39:16

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Kristina 39:24

Since 2000, the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands-on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

Heather 39:36

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 10: The Discipline Series, Part 1 of 3

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina discuss the difference between discipline and punishment, emphasizing a growth-focused approach. They highlight the negative impact of punitive models on children’s mental health and attachment. Sharing personal stories, they illustrate how modeling positive behavior and providing do-overs can foster resilience and healthy development. They stress the importance of co-parenting and understanding the root causes of children’s behaviors. The conversation underscores the need for a supportive, non-punitive environment where children feel safe to learn and make mistakes, promoting long-term growth and connection.

“And what we say in our preschool world is ‘Whatever we shine a light on, we’re going to get more of.’ So if we’re focusing on all of the negative that we don’t want to see, and we’re calling it out and giving it attention, giving it legs to go walking around, it’s going to go walking around.”

Introduction to the Discipline Series

Heather introduces the first episode of a three-part series on discipline, focusing on the difference between discipline and punishment.
Kristina emphasizes that discipline is about building connections and teaching skills, not just enforcing rules.
Heather acknowledges the challenge of shifting to a growth-focused, non-punitive approach but highlights its rewards.
Kristina mentions the importance of modeling positive behavior and the shared parenting journey.

The Importance of Connection in Discipline

Heather and Kristina discuss the significance of connection and understanding in transforming the discipline experience.
Heather and Kristina stress the importance of getting on the same page with co-parents or caregivers regarding discipline philosophies.

Challenges of a Punitive Model

Kristina explains that many parents were raised with a punitive model of discipline, which can impact children’s mental health and attachment.
Heather and Kristina discuss how punitive methods can lead to increased anxiety, depression, and a negative self-image in children.
They highlight the importance of understanding the neurodevelopmental impact of punitive punishment on children’s brains, emphasizing the need for a different approach.

The Difference Between Discipline and Punishment

Heather explains the etymology of the words “punishment” and “discipline,” showing that punishment involves chastising, humiliating, and inflicting harm.
Kristina and Heather discuss the negative connotations of punishment and the importance of guiding, teaching, and modeling positive behavior.
Heather emphasizes that punishment can only control behavior temporarily, while discipline focuses on long-term growth and skill development.
They discuss the importance of recognizing and teaching lagging skills rather than just punishing children for not meeting expectations.

“I think all parents truly want what’s best for their children. They want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. So that’s ‘punishment’ – chastise, inflict harm, penalize. Then we have ‘discipline,’ which comes from a very different place. And it means to guide, to teach, to model, to encourage. It means to embrace the teaching of follow the example of and model life after…Very different. Feels very different. I want to be in the discipline camp all the time…And the thing to remember with punishment is that it can control a child’s behavior for only so long, because it’s really reliant on power…And so if we are trying to overpower people, it’s a very short term solution to something that really needs to be ongoing and lifelong.”

The Impact of Punitive Methods on Children

Kristina and Heather discuss how punitive methods can lead to increased maladaptive behavior and a negative self-image in children.
They emphasize the importance of understanding the root causes of children’s behavior and addressing them with appropriate guidance and teaching.
Heather shares a personal story about breaking a screen door when she was a child and how her mother’s humorous response shaped their understanding of discipline.
Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of modeling positive behavior and providing a safe environment for children to make mistakes and learn.

The Role of Connection in Effective Discipline

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of connection and attachment in effective discipline, emphasizing that children need to feel safe and secure.
They share a story about Kristina’s daughter, Grace, angrily throwing her Winnie the Pooh figurine and how her husband’s response led to a negative interaction.
Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of co-regulation and providing support to children when they are dysregulated.
They emphasize the need for parents to model compassion and understanding in their responses to children’s behavior.

“And it really is looking toward the horizon, anticipating what is ahead in the work that we do with our teachers. There’s a lot of that work to say, ‘Where are the tough spots? What are the transitions or times of day that are particularly difficult for this individual, this student?’ And if we can know that ahead of time, then it is predictable. And then…we can come up with strategies for how to help the child be successful. And we can focus on what the missing skill may be that we need to help grow so that they are able to be successful…

But instead of just expecting that tomorrow, it’s going to be better because maybe you got cross. Or maybe there was a punishment that was given and that’s going to teach them. It teaches them maybe to be afraid of messing up. It teaches them to perhaps be fearful of their caregiver or the person imposing the punishment, to maybe not be truthful. Because we need to remember: children do well when they can. No child is out there trying to make your life miserable, because that’s fun for them. It’s not fun for them. They want to be securely connected to their caregivers, and it’s a primary need, right? And when we behave in those punitive ways, because the child has to, for their survival, attach to us, they have to make that attachment safe. So, in their minds, they are the problem. They are the ones that carry the burden for whatever the adult is doing. And those punitive methods crack that foundation. They crack that attachment. They rock that safety, security and belonging that we talk about is so important. And when we’re utilizing a discipline model, and kids can feel safe and secure and know that there’s a growth mindset and that they can get there yet..We used to say that all the time, ‘You’re not there yet, but you’re getting there. It’s coming. You’re growing, right? And you’ll be there.’ And, gosh, when they get there, it makes it so much more rich.”

The Importance of a Growth Mindset

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of a growth mindset in discipline, where children are encouraged to keep trying and improve.
They emphasize the need for parents to provide a safe and supportive environment where children can make mistakes and learn from them.
Heather shares a story about her son’s behavior and how a supportive touch helped de-escalate a tense moment while they were at church.
Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of understanding and supporting each other as co-parents to provide consistent and effective discipline.

“And when you mentioned wanting our children to grow up feeling safe coming to us with whatever it might be, that’s a long view. And it begins when they are very young. And they’re bringing you stuff that is, in our adult mind, maybe child’s play or minimal or not such a big deal, right? But we have to remember that if we don’t relish in the small stuff when they’re little with them, and find the joy and excitement and enthusiasm, they aren’t going to, when they’re big, trust us with the big stuff, right?

And that’s on us to be worthy of them bringing us their things, of reminding them in those times, ‘We’re on the same team. We are in this together. We are here to help and support you, guide you, love you, and you don’t have to hide those things from us, because we are your people. We are your team.’

And that’s a very powerful message that aids in children feeling safe and secure and able to do the hard work of growing up, making mistakes, learning from them and moving forward.”

The Challenges of Co-Parenting

Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges of co-parenting and having different philosophies about discipline.
They share personal stories about their own experiences with co-parenting and the importance of communication and understanding.
Heather emphasizes the need for co-parents to find common ground and support each other in their parenting journey.
Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of being open to learning and growing together as co-parents.

“…And that’s kind of how our discipline journey was together. It was like if he were me and he was walking the dock. It’s just how it was. It was kind of awkward and clunky. And there were times we thought we were going in the water. And we had to work it out. And it required a lot of talking and a lot of patience and a lot of understanding that we didn’t gain our philosophies overnight, and we don’t undo them overnight.”

The Role of Community and Support

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of community and support in effective parenting and discipline.
They emphasize the need for parents to seek support from their village, whether it be family, friends, or professional resources.
Heather shares a story about the importance of connection in de-escalating a situation with her children.
Kristina and Heather highlight the importance of being open to feedback and support from others in the parenting journey.

Conclusion and Next Steps

Heather and Kristina conclude the episode by emphasizing the importance of connection, understanding, and a growth-focused approach to discipline.
They encourage parents to continue the conversation and seek support from their community and professional resources.

Further Reading and Resources:

Reference Note:

In a prior episode, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N

Natural Start Alliance

Children & Nature Network

National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC)

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

Attachment and Connection:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

The Power of Play:

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Understanding Temperaments:

Episode 10: Discipline Series, Part 1 of 3

Heather 00:00

Welcome everyone to the first episode of our three-part series on discipline. Today, we’re diving into the difference between discipline and punishment and embracing a growth focused approach to discipline over a punitive model.

Kristina 00:13

That’s right. Discipline isn’t just about the rules, it’s about building connections and teaching skills. In this episode, we’ll explore how responding punitively can really impact children’s mental health and attachment.

Heather 00:29

It’s a tough topic and also a crucial topic. Shifting to a growth focused non punitive approach is not easy, but it’s also so rewarding and helps build important skills in us and our kiddos.

Kristina 00:44

We’re not saying it’s simple. We’ll talk about how we’re all on this parenting journey together, learning and growing alongside our kids and compassion, both with ourselves and with our children, is key.

Heather 00:57

And sometimes, as parents, we’re not on the same page, and that can be really tricky.

Kristina 01:03

Absolutely. We’ll talk about how modeling positive behavior makes a huge difference. Kids are little sponges soaking up everything we do.

Heather 01:12

They sure are, and we’ll be sharing some personal stories in this episode to highlight the challenges and successes we faced in navigating discipline.

Kristina 01:21

This discussion is all about how connection and understanding can transform the discipline experience.

Heather 01:29

Let’s kick off this journey together and explore how we can create a more positive approach to discipline. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

Kristina 01:42

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

Heather 01:55

Kristina 02:18

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

Heather 02:22

Are you ready?

Heather and Kristina 02:24

Let’s hit the trails.

Heather 02:30

Kristina 02:42

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives.

Heather 02:50

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

Kristina 03:00

Welcome back. We are so glad that you’re with us. Today, we are going to begin a conversation about a really big topic. Yes, we’re going to start discussing discipline.

Heather 03:16

It’s a beast.

Kristina 03:17

It is a beast. It’s a really, really big topic to cover.

Heather 03:21

It sure is, and it’s a hot topic to cover.

Kristina 03:23

We get asked a lot of questions about discipline, because it’s tricky. It’s something many times that we’ll think, well, we just do it. We don’t really have to think about it that much.

Heather 03:36

And it’s one of those things that we think, in theory, is so much easier when we don’t have children, because we don’t realize your heart gets so tied up into all of the outcomes. And it’s like your little heart goes walking outside your body when you have this child, and you’re so connected to it, and you want to do so right by it, but you maybe have no idea how, all of a sudden, when, before we would see people in situations and think, “Oh, I’ll never do that,” or “My child will never behave like that.” Right? And we thought we had all of the strategies, but then, when we’re in it, it’s so different because your heart is in it differently.

Kristina 04:16

Yep. You’re absolutely right. So we’re going to begin this conversation. This is not going to be a one episode kind of conversation. Discipline is a very, very big topic, and it touches us right at our very core. So why are we talking about it? We’re talking about it because it is something that everyone nurturing and raising children has to figure out. And determining what your approach to discipline is going to be, what your philosophy of discipline will be, and if you co parent or are raising a child with someone else, getting on the same page.

Heather 04:56

Getting on the same page is huge. And we hear from people all the time that they are doing it so differently, maybe than their parents parented them, right?

Kristina 05:06

Absolutely. Many of us were raised with a very punitive model of discipline, punishment, obedience. If not at home, certainly in schools, right? We had the little clothes pins that you would move right? We all start on green, but oh, move it to yellow or move it to red. That’s actually a punitive approach to this thing we call discipline. So one of the reasons that we think it’s so important to talk about is because many of us were raised with a punitive model, and we tend to repeat what we were raised with.

Heather 05:47

Even if we have the best intentions not to, right in those moments of intensity, we default to what feels familiar. And so all of a sudden you can be in these heated moments, and something comes out of your mouth that is not at all your philosophy or what you intended. And it sounds much more like your childhood and how you were parented, but it came out because we default to the familiar.

Kristina 06:15

Yeah. And I’m not passing judgment on any of our parents or our parents. No. They were doing the very best they could with what they knew at the time. We know more now. We have all kinds of research studies that have been done, brain scanning that’s been conducted. We know more.

Heather 06:33

Absolutely. And we have a vastly different world even than when you and I were growing up. Very different pressures. Very different environments. There’s just a lot of different dynamics and factors. They’re busier than they used to be. There’s way more stuff to be involved in.

Kristina 06:49

So some of the things that we know about a punitive model of discipline is that it does impact the mental health of those who’ve been the recipient of punitive punishment. My husband is a believer in what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. And I’ve said to him many times, “Well, actually, what doesn’t kill you oftentimes ends you in therapy.”

Heather 07:17

Disregulates your central nervous system.

Kristina 07:19

Absolutely. So understanding what punitive punishment does to the brain as far as how it actually alters the neuro-development of the brain. It results in individuals who are much more hypersensitive to their own mistakes, and less able to see the good, to hear the good, to believe the good, because they have a foundational belief that “I am not enough. I am bad. The world is a scary place, because if I mess up, there’s going to be something painful, either physically, psychologically, something painful will happen to me.”

Heather 08:06

There’s a connection to that inner voice.

Kristina 08:09

Yes. And living in relationships that are punitive: increase levels of anxiety, increase levels of depression, increase levels of feeling hopeless. It’s not good for your brain. It’s not good for your overall wellbeing. And it begins to erode the connection and attachment between child and adult, which we’ve spoken about before, is critical to wellbeing. So we know these things now. And many of us want to do it differently. We want to raise our children differently. We want to engage with children, whether they’re our own or others, in a way that allows them to be who they are doesn’t expect them to have skills they don’t have yet, and is designed to do something other than punish. We believe that with every ounce of our being and yet still, we mess up. A lot. Yeah, if my daughter was here, she’d say, “Yeah, work in progress. Progress over perfection.”

Heather 09:23

And that’s okay, because you also want to model that perfection is not the goal. We’re all human. We’re all going to mess it up and muck it up. But really it’s about what we do in those moments that matters, those moments of when we’ve goofed it up. Yep, that’s the teaching moment. Yeah, that’s the other thing to say. Well, and we’ll talk about the differences in just a moment here about discipline and punishment, but a punitive model rooted in obedience doesn’t ever get to the root of the behavior, what skill we need to work on, what skill we need to teach we’re just demanding that a child sit there for a length of time, and you never get to why that might be a challenge, or is it developmentally appropriate,

Kristina 10:17

And in fact, maladaptive behavior, which would be behavior that we are hoping not to see, that occurs when our expectation supersedes the skills of the person that we’ve placed the expectations on, exactly that’s really important.

Heather 10:36

And then being able to recognize that and teach the lagging skill.

Kristina 10:41

And adjust your expectation until the skills have been developed to the point that the expectation can be met. We’re the ones, the grown-ups, setting the expectation. So I need to remind myself often that if a child is struggling, part of what they may be struggling with is the fact that they’re expected to do something they simply aren’t equipped to do yet.

Heather 11:05

And if we can’t get to a place where children are able to be successful, those kids get really good at failing.

Kristina 11:13

And they get angry, right? Because it’s never good enough. “I’m always in the wrong.”

Heather 11:23

Well,it goes back to all the inner voice. What are they telling themselves about that fail?

Kristina 11:28

Yep. So, actually, people who are interacted with in a punitive way, regarding punishment or response to choices and behaviors, it actually increases the maladaptive behavior because they have not been given the skills that they need, and so the behaviors that are maladaptive only increase again, because of their inner voice, who they believe themselves to be.

Heather 11:55

And what we say in our preschool world is “Whatever we shine a light on, we’re going to get more of.” So if we’re focusing on all of the negative that we don’t want to see, and we’re calling it out and giving it attention, giving it legs to go walking around, it’s going to go walking around.

Kristina 12:33

I would love it, Heather, if you would help us understand the difference between discipline and punishment, because I think a lot of us mix the two up, interchange the two. We think they’re kind of the same thing and they’re vastly different. So help us understand that.

Heather 12:50

Yeah. Let’s talk about punishment. The word “punishment” actually comes from a Latin root of the word “punire.” It’s a verb. There’s no noun form of the word, and what that word means is to chastise, to humiliate, to inflict harm. None of those things sound pleasant at all. None of those things I don’t think we would typically relate to how we want to treat a child, or how we want to grow a child, and yet that is where the word punishment stems from, to chastise, inflict harm and to penalize.

Kristina 13:33

You know, even as you say that, my whole heart gets heavy and sad.

Heather 13:38

Absolutely. They’re yucky terms. I guess as we look at children, we always want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. And those words don’t make me think growth in any way. They just have this yuck associated.

Kristina 13:55

And I thought that’s what we all want, right? To grow our children into the best version of themselves.

Heather 14:01

Absolutely. And it doesn’t mean we necessarily know how to do that, but I agree. I think all parents truly want what’s best for their children. They want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. So that’s punishment – chastise, inflict harm, penalize. Then we have “discipline,” which comes from a very different place. And it means to guide, to teach, to model, to encourage. It means to embrace the teaching of follow the example of and model life after. And we talk all the time about how discipline is really how you live. It truly is modeling and teaching and having those kids be able to follow the example of and you can just feel the weight in. Difference of the intention behind those two words and where they come from. Chastise, inflict harm, penalize, model, teach, lead, grow. Very different. Feels very different. I want to be in the discipline camp all the time. Yep, not that I always get there, because, you know, we can default back to some things that we don’t love, and that’s just a part of parenting and growing ourselves honestly. And the thing to remember with punishment is that it can control a child’s behavior for only so long, because it’s really reliant on power. And who holds the power and who wields the power. So when kids are little, we can pick them up and we can move their bodies, and we can get them where we need them to go, even if they are not wanting them. We can overpower them, right? We can make that happen. But my kids now, at the age that they are, like, that’s a very short term thing that can happen. All of my children are taller than I am at this point. The reality is they’re way more likely to carry me around than I can carry any of them around. They’re just younger and stronger and bigger. And so if we are trying to overpower people, it’s a very short term solution to something that really needs to be ongoing and lifelong. I have a twenty year old. I mean, we’re not disciplining him in the same way, but he lives in our home. We’re actively still guiding and teaching, and the stakes are high. He’s making important life decisions, and so discipline kind of goes on and on and on and on forever, and punishment, on the other hand, is very short lived, because it involves that power and control in whoever holds it is wielding that power. And then the other thing that we say a lot is, “Whoever is most committed to an outcome in this situation has the least amount of power.”

Kristina 17:23

Oh, I want you to say that again, because it’s something that we forget often.

Heather 17:28

The person most committed to an outcome has the least amount of power, meaning you’re kind of handing that power over to someone else because you are so committed and focused on that outcome.

Kristina 17:43

And what we do in order to be successful in achieving the outcome we desire is we often tend to coerce, maybe threaten, dangle a carrot out in front if you do this, then I’ll, you know, we can go get bribery. We call those bribes. We do those things which doesn’t make anybody feel good. And when you’re in that position, at least for me, I often think, “Oh, nuts. She owns me right now.” She owns me instead of letting go of the outcome and remaining in charge.

Heather 18:23

Yes, absolutely. Also, through a punitive model, we actually unintentionally teach kids some things like how to be better liars. We just get sneaky. How to get way sneakier, how to be better at kind of being bad, the things that we don’t want to see. We kind of train them in how to do those things right? Better to not get in trouble, right? Does that make sense?

Kristina 18:52

Yeah.Because childhood is messy, right? They make mistakes.

Heather 18:57

We all do. And they always default to this, “Oh, I’m gonna be in trouble. I’m gonna get so much trouble. I’m gonna get so much trouble.” Kids say all the time. I’ve heard so many teenagers say this in my home, “My parents are going to kill me.” And I always say to them, “No way. Your parents are not going to kill you. Your parents love you more than anybody in this world. And you need to not think that way. You need to flip it and reframe it to ‘I need to call my parents.’ And that’s a big shift for kids. And that, for my husband and I was one of the things that we needed to agree on, because that takes that future outlook of, again, what’s our foundation? What’s our goal? What are we committed to? Where are we heading? And I always wanted our children to think, “I need to call my mom. I need to call my dad.” Rather than “I’m going to be in so much trouble. They’re going to kill me.” Because kids say that kind of stuff all the time. And so we had to get on board together with that thought process, because not all people look out that far, right? And pre plan right? And we say all the time “being proactive right is way more powerful than being reactive.” Yeah, it truly is all about teaching and guiding. It’s about how we treat other people. It’s about the standard for how we treat people in our home. It’s how we respond in frustration. How we respond in anger. Because those kids are always watching us, and they’re sponges. They’re going to absorb. I remember seeing a visual. It’s a dated visual because it has some kind of stereotypical roles that aren’t true in today’s world, but it’s kind of like a comic strip, but it’s not funny. And it’s a dad coming home and kind of having a bad day. And it shows like yelling at this mom who’s in the home. And then it shows the mom going into another room and then yelling at the child. And then it shows the child going into a different room and yelling at the younger sibling. And that’s so true, how that goes. And if we can keep that picture in our mind of what we do, they soak in and then they pass on. So it is about all of that guiding. It’s about teaching. It’s about do we embrace a growth mindset? Is this a safe place to fail? Yes, we talk about failing forward. And is this a safe place to say, “I didn’t do that well?” Well, it becomes that place when we say “I messed that up.” Right? “I need a do over.” Those are the types of things that then you hear coming out of the child’s mouth.

Kristina 21:58

Yeah. And it really is looking toward the horizon, anticipating what is ahead in the work that we do with our teachers. There’s a lot of that work to say, “Where are the tough spots? What are the transitions or times of day that are particularly difficult for this individual, this student?” And if we can know that ahead of time, then it is predictable, and then we can pour into the child prior to those times occurring. We can come up with strategies for how to help the child be successful, and we can focus on what the missing skill may be that we need to help grow so that they are able to be successful. But instead of just expecting that tomorrow, it’s going to be better because maybe you got cross, or maybe there was a punishment that was given and that that’s going to teach them. It teaches them maybe to be afraid of messing up. It teaches them to perhaps be fearful of their caregiver or the person imposing the punishment, to maybe not be truthful, yes, because we need to remember children do well when they can no child is out there trying to make your life miserable, because that’s fun for them. It’s not fun for them. They want to be securely connected to their caregivers, and it’s a primary need, right? And when we behave in those punitive ways, because the child has to for their survival attached to us, they have to make that attachment safe. So in their minds, they are the problem. They are the ones that carry the burden for whatever the adult is doing.

Heather 23:47

And those punitive methods crack that foundation. They crack that attachment. They rock that safety, security and belonging that we talk about is so important, and when we’re utilizing a discipline model, and kids can feel safe and secure and know that there’s a growth mindset and that they can get there yet is a big word. We used to say that all the time, and like, yeah, “You’re not there yet, but you’re getting there. It’s coming. You’re growing, right? And you’ll be there.” And, gosh, when they get there, it makes it so much more rich. It’s the sign in my garage: “This house isn’t perfectly put together, but our struggles become our triumphs. And that it’s a safe place to struggle and triumph.”

Kristina 24:38

Well, and when you mentioned wanting our children to grow feeling safe coming to us with whatever it might be absolutely that’s a long view. And it begins when they are very young.

Heather 24:54

And they’re bringing you stuff that is, in our adult mind, maybe child’s play or minimal or not such a big deal, right? But we have to remember that if we don’t relish in the small stuff when they’re little with them, and find the joy and excitement and enthusiasm, they aren’t going to, when they’re big, trust us with the big stuff, right? And there will be big stuff, right?

Kristina 25:22

And that’s on us to be worthy of them bringing us their things, of reminding them in those times, we’re on the same team, right? We are in this together. We are here to help and support you, guide you, love you, and you don’t have to hide those things from us, because we are your people. We are your team, absolutely, better or worse, we are in it together. And that’s a very powerful message that aids in children feeling safe and secure and able to do the hard work of growing up, making mistakes, learning from them and moving forward

Heather 26:12

I couldn’t have been more than four years old and my brother were nineteen months apart, so he was maybe six-ish or close to six. I don’t even know which one of us did this. This is in this is a famous story in my family. We lived in a ranch house. We had this sliding glass door in our living room that had a screen on it. And it went out to the patio, and then beyond the patio there was a swimming pool. And so it was kind of the hub all summer long – in and out, in and out, in and out. And we used to lean on that screen door. We were told numerous times not to do it. But I don’t know what it was about it that felt so good. And so we did lean against this and our television was in there. So we’d just kind of be watching “Scooby Doo” like leaning against the screen door. Well, one day, that screen broke. And I do not remember to this day if it was me or my brother. All I remember is we both had really big eyes when it happened. And we immediately laid on the floor with our chin in our palms, like on our bellies, just staring at the TV, and we wouldn’t break from it. And I remember it was a Friday, because my mom was cleaning the house and Friday was cleaning house day, okay? And we were laying on our bellies on the floor, looking up at the TV. You know, our chins in our hands, and from our – what is this called? Thank you. Peripheral vision. We see our mother come down the hall and walk through and you know, it’s that moment where you’re like, don’t breathe, don’t move, don’t make eye contact. Don’t make eye contact. And she stops, and we’re like, “oh no, oh no.” And she backs up, and we’re not making eye contact, but you can see in your peripheral vision, she is looking at that screen door. And we’re like, oh no, oh no, oh no. And she says, “Kids.” And we look very sheepishly with terror, and she says, “What happened to the screen door?” And we’re like, “We don’t know. I don’t know.” And she’s like, “You don’t know?”

Kristina 28:28

“No. No idea.”

Heather 28:31

“David, did you do that?” “No.” “Heather, did you do that?” “No. No, he didn’t mom. No, she didn’t mom. We told you I don’t know who did it.” We stuck up for each other so hard to this day, we’re like, who broke the screen door? We don’t remember, but neither one of us did it. And my mom looked at us both and said, “Hmm, that must have been one damn big fly.” And walked away. And we were like, ‘It was a really big fly. Did we just get away with that?” I’m sure we didn’t. Like we knew there was more to come. We knew my mother could look at us, and she’s a wonderful mother, and she’s also a powerhouse. So when you talk about leading by example, where do I get some of my chutzpah?

Kristina 29:19

Oh, no question, it’s Diane, right? Your mother, yeah, right.

Heather 29:24

But we also knew, like, when we were shot a certain look, oh, you had stepped in it. You had stepped in at large, and you were gonna be circled back to, maybe not in that moment, but it’s coming back. At some point.

Kristina 29:39

It’s coming around.

Heather 29:40

So there’s the screen door and the damn big fly to this day. I have no idea who did it.

Kristina 29:47

But even as you tell that story, I can feel in my gut, oh yeah, that fear. Nobody make eye don’t make eye contact.

Heather 29:53

No, no, no, no, no, no. Nobody. Admit it.

Kristina 29:57

Maybe this will just go away. Maybe it’ll just go away.

Heather 30:02

And my parents, both great examples. Wonderful people. But we all have these moments in our homes that take us by surprise. Because kids, they’re brilliant and they’re challenging, and they have great ideas, and they have power in numbers sometimes. And we think, how do they come up with this stuff? And they catch us by surprise. And what are we going to do in those moments?

Kristina 30:33

So the punitive model is that, you know, “Do it, or else. I’ll give you something to cry about.” And it is not helpful for growing healthy children, growing them into healthy adults. And in fact, it sets us up to think that kind of behavior is normal. You can choose to do it differently. It takes intentionality. It takes support from a co-parent or your village, because it can be counter cultural, especially to the older generations, where this type of model of discipline and really growing skills in children can look a little soft.

Heather 31:16

It can look soft, but it’s a lot of work. When you really understand what’s happening, it’s a lot of work.

Kristina 31:27

My husband and I will say this, and we’ve actually said this to Grace before, which I’m not proud of, but things like, she’ll do something, or she’ll respond in a way, she’ll behave in a manner that is not what we were hoping for. And my husband, or I will say, “If we had done that when we were young, wowza. There would have been a major punishment.” And I don’t know what we’re trying to communicate in the moment. I think we’re just trying to reconcile the fact that we’re doing it differently. We don’t need to say that to the child. And sometimes we’re surprised when, even though we want to do it differently, the old ways come out. I will never, never forget. Okay, so I know I’ve shared with you before that my daughter, Grace, who is amazing, also leaves kind of pieces of herself wherever she goes. She’s constantly losing things. Because, even as a toddler, when she was done playing with something, she would literally kind of throw it behind her, like, that’s in my past. I’m moving forward. So she lost her favorite toys all the time. And she loved the little like, figurines, yes. Oh, so she went through a real Winnie the Pooh phase. So she had little Pooh Bear and a little Rabbit and a little Piglet and a little Eeyore and Tigger. And one was certainly not enough, because they were always lost. So my husband, because he does things in big ways, we ended up with, I think, like 17 Rabbits and maybe 32 Poohs and all these figurines. I mean, all of these figurines. And at one point, Grace had, I had helped her, but we had set them all up on the table just to see the minions of Pooh figurines that we had in our home at that point. And they were all a little bit different. And so she had her favorites. And who are we going to play with today? Well, Vince had come home. And you know, when we’re in a surly mood, our children don’t become really compliant. They become a little more surly. So Vince came home, there was an exchange, and Grace chucked one of her Pooh figurines. Just chucked it. She was good at that. She liked to throw things when she was upset. I do too, honestly. So anyway, she chucks the Pooh Bear, and the response from Vince is, “You do not throw things like that in the house.” And she threw another one. And then he’s like, “That’s mine.” And he took those two figures that she had thrown. So she threw another one. He said, “That’s mine too. Keep going.” And my little. I mean, she was, what, maybe two and a half, three. She took those arms and she cleared the whole table of all of the Pooh figures. They’re all gone.

Heather 34:15

You know he’s gathering them.

Kristina 34:17

Oh, I know. I said to him at that point again, my mother would not be approve of this language, but I said, “You do not get in a pissing match with a two year old. That’s ridiculous. She’s not able to control herself. She doesn’t have the skills to manage her level of dysregulation. She needs to co regulate with us. So when we meet her dysregulation with our dysregulation, holy moly, and all that energy goes up. And everything, you know, kind of devolves into this, and they match each other.

Heather 34:54

And it’s like you threw a line and somebody got hooked. And then there’s this wild reeling and the fishes trying to, you know, somebody’s being the fish, and somebody’s winding them in.

Kristina 35:07

Oh man. So sometimes we show up in ways that are not what we were hoping. And so how do you reel that back? How do you apologize to your child when you model or behave in a way that’s not what you were hoping for? And now what you want to teach, right? We have a sign in our house that says, “May I have a do over please?” So we did a lot of do overs. We still do if there’s a tone that is not something we would hope for, it’s like, “Hey, try that again. Let’s take a breath and try that againHas to be done in a loving way. Because let me tell you, if your pre teen gives you sass and you say, “Try it again,” and they come back with sass and you say, “Try it again. Try it again.”

Heather 35:56

There’s energy there.

Kristina 35:57

That’s not getting you where you want to go, but allowing people to make mistakes, because we are human, after all, and to try it again is a really lovely, compassionate way to help kids grow skills. The first step really is determining “What’s my philosophy? What’s my approach? What am I hoping to accomplish?” And then am I able to find a compromise so that I have a common understanding. If I’m fortunate enough to co-parent with somebody else, or for the people who are in my village, because both of us had partners where we were not on the same page?

Heather 36:38

Yes, I think that’s important to talk about, because I don’t think it’s easy for our husbands to be married to clinical social workers. First off, because we were trained in human behavior, we’re trained in child development, and it’s not easy being married to us, because we have opinions on things. And then we have this philosophical knowledge and research and we know things. And it can feel sometimes like we’re preachy to our husbands. I’m sure it feels that way. And I like to say to my husband, “But you have all of these skills that I couldn’t possess.” Like, yes, it’s kind of a challenge that my area of study and education and knowledge also really applies in our home with the children. My husband loves to boat, and I get wildly seasick unless we’re moving fast on a boat. If we stop and there’s rollers, it’s terrible. I am always vomiting. And I am not good on docks. You should see me walk on a dock. My children are like, “Are you impaired in some sort of significant way?” Yes, but I think what it is maybe a height thing, or it’s like a depth perception. And so I’ll say to my husband, “Watch me walk on this dock, because it’s kind of like how we had to figure out our parenting journey.” And he’ll come alongside me and be like, ‘You look so ridiculous I can’t not help you.” And I’m like, “Amen. I felt the same way in our home.” You know, and that’s not a jad. It’s not a jab. But you have to get to that place where you can be like,”We’re all not good at everything.”

Kristina 38:29

It’s not a jab. It’s a realization, though, yes.

Heather 38:33

And so I feel like there needs to be a video of me walking on a dock, because even I’m aware of how awkward and terrible it looks but I can’t help it, it’s just how I am. And we have a boat that’s at a marina all summer, so I look dumb a lot. The kids are like, “Oh, just go past mom, because it’s gonna take her like, seven minutes to get down this twelve foot stretch.” So and even that, in that example, there’s great modeling for your children. It’s like, “Yeah, I’m not good at this. In fact, I like, legit suck at this. And I don’t know why, but there is some sort of fear kind of around it, or like, I feel like I’m not well in my body, in that space, and to let my kids see that and see me not be good at it, you know, like their dad could cartwheel down the dock and their hands sprang off of it and back flip on it, and then I’m like, one foot in front of the other, and that’s kind of how our discipline journey was together. It was like if he were me and he was walking the dock. It’s just how it was. It was kind of awkward and clunky. And there were times we thought we were going in the water, and we had to work it out, and it required a lot of talking and a. Lot of patience and a lot of understanding that we didn’t gain our philosophies overnight, and we don’t undo them overnight. Very good point and to be able to tap one another in. I distinctly remember, as we were working through this process, being in church, my husband thinks it’s a skill that I have, that we have five people in our family, me being one, but that I can he’s like, how are your arms long enough to touch all of us when we’re sitting all in a line in church? But I don’t know. I just like to because I know connection and touch is so important, at least to my children and to my husband as well, it brings calm, yeah. And so sitting in church isn’t always the easiest thing to do as a family with small children. And I think Luke was on the very end, and then it was Zack, and then it was my husband myself, and Ava was on the other side of me, and I could sense and see that there was something happening between our oldest Zack, who was probably eight or nine at the time, and Travis, because they are quite alike in some ways, and they posture, and when one of them begins, it’s kind of like Grace and Vince with the Pooh Bears, like the other one responds. And so I could sense that there was this tension. I could sense that there was this posturing happening. And you’re in church. It’s quiet. You’re on display. That doesn’t bother me as much, but I know it bothers my husband, because he feels like he has an audience. And so I just leaned over and said to him, “Put your hand on his leg.” Meaning, put your hand on Zack’s leg, because he’s trying not to use words, but yet he’s trying to discipline in some way, and I wasn’t sure what had transpired. And he looks at me like, “Whatever.” But he puts his hand on Zack’s leg and kind of pats it gently, and it leaves it there. And Zack leaned into him, lay his head on his shoulder. And then my husband looked at me like, “I don’t like you. Why do you know this?” Because it was so contrary to what felt natural to him. Because I think what he probably wanted to do was say, “Knock it off.” And I don’t even know what was happening, but just that touch and that connection softened everything. But it’s not easy being our husbands, probably for lots of reasons.

Kristina 42:46

But there are some perks that go along.

Heather 42:50

True. But I think that can be tricky. And I think it can be tricky in any relationship where you maybe don’t agree on those philosophies.

Kristina 43:00

And as I hear you talk about that story with Travis and Zack, I think to myself, the act of Travis putting his hand on Zack’s leg was an act of saying, “We are not opposed. We are together.”

Heather 43:16

“Yeah. And I belong to you. You belong to me.”

Kristina 43:19

And, wow, what a really powerful.

Heather 43:23

Which is who I am all day long. And my husband would be like, “But is that gonna keep them from dot, dot, dot?” And the answer is “Yes, much more than fear or shame, actually.”

Kristina 43:38

We are really looking forward to continuing this conversation about discipline. Thank you so much for joining us for gear up adventures in parenthood. I’m Kristina

Heather 43:54

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

Kristina 43:58

Until next time see you on the trails. The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

Heather 44:16

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Kristina 44:24

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

Heather 44:36

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature. To learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Bonus Episode – Gratitude: A Powerful Parenting Tool

Clinical social workers Kristina and Heather discuss the critical role gratitude plays in parenting, specifically in shifting mindsets from victimhood to resilience. They highlight practical strategies like expressing gratitude at dinner, keeping gratitude jars, and using visual reminders. Gratitude is linked to improved mental health, reduced depression and anxiety, and enhanced happiness. They stress the difference between genuine gratitude and toxic positivity, advocating for authentic expression and critical thinking. They share personal stories that illustrate how gratitude can transform negative situations into opportunities for growth. They also discuss modeling gratitude and involving children in giving activities, such as leaving pennies for others to use for a fun activity for kids at a local grocery store chain.

The Importance of Gratitude in Parenting

Kristina introduces the topic of gratitude in parenting, emphasizing its significance in shifting mindsets from victimhood to resilience.
Heather explains that gratitude is not just a “feel-good” concept but an important tool that can make a huge positive impact on mental health and happiness.
Kristina highlights the importance of parents modeling gratitude through our daily language and actions.
Heather mentions simple practices like expressing gratitude at dinner, keeping gratitude jars, and having visual reminders to instill this mindset in children.

Modeling Authentic Gratitude and Avoiding Toxic Positivity

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of authentic gratitude rather than toxic positivity, which does not allow for critical thinking.
Heather shares her experience of making gratitude a practice at the dinner table, engaging the family in conversations about what they are grateful for.
Kristina emphasizes the need to shift from a victim mentality to a grateful one, which helps in maintaining a positive outlook, even during challenging times.
Heather and Kristina agree that gratitude keeps individuals in a more executive state, promoting reason and logic over emotional overwhelm.

Some Practices to Foster Gratitude

Kristina and Heather discuss concrete practices to foster gratitude, such as keeping a gratitude jar or a visual reminder like a gratitude board.
Heather shares her experience of involving children in giving, such as leaving pennies for others to ride a mechanical pony at the grocery store.
Kristina talks about a preschool class that painted rocks with positive messages and scattered them to spread joy.
Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of making gratitude practices visual and intentional to help children understand and practice gratitude.

Gratitude in Daily Life and Its Impact

Heather and Kristina share personal stories of how they model gratitude in daily life, such as expressing gratitude for patience when running late.
Heather talks about the impact of gratitude on brain states, keeping individuals in a more executive state and promoting a calmer, happier life.
Kristina shares an example of how gratitude can change the energy in a room, making it more positive and less overwhelming.
Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of modeling gratitude for children, helping them develop a genuine appreciation for life’s blessings.

Gratitude in Challenging Situations

Heather shares a story about her son Zack’s car accident and how gratitude helped him shift his perspective from a victim mentality to seeing the opportunity for growth.
Kristina shares a personal story about her daughter Grace breaking her arm and how gratitude helped her as a parent shift from a negative outlook to a positive one.
Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of reframing situations to find something to be grateful for, even in challenging times.
They discuss how gratitude helps in maintaining a positive outlook and promoting resilience in both children and adults.

Gratitude as a Foundational Value

Heather and Kristina talk about gratitude as one of the foundational values they teach their children.
They share how gratitude impacts not only the individual but also those around them, creating a positive ripple effect.
Heather shares an example of how her children learned to give by leaving pennies for others to ride a mechanical pony at the grocery store.
Kristina talks about a preschool class that painted rocks with positive messages and scattered them to spread joy, teaching children to think about others’ happiness.

Gratitude in Education and Community

Heather and Kristina discuss how gratitude is incorporated into their work with children and families, such as using gratitude trees in classrooms.
They share how gratitude practices help children develop a sense of appreciation and connection to their community.
Heather talks about the impact of gratitude on mental health and overall well-being, both for children and adults.
Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of making gratitude practices intentional and visual to help children understand and practice gratitude.

Gratitude as a Tool for Developing Resilience

Heather and Kristina discuss how gratitude helps in building resilience and promoting a positive outlook in both children and adults.
They share personal stories of how gratitude has helped them shift from a victim mentality to a more resilient one.
Heather talks about the impact of gratitude on brain states, keeping individuals in a more executive state and promoting a calmer, happier life.
Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of modeling gratitude for children, helping them develop a genuine appreciation for life’s gifts.

Gratitude in Daily Routines and Family Life

Heather and Kristina discuss how gratitude can be incorporated into daily routines, such as expressing gratitude at dinner or keeping a gratitude jar.
They share examples of how they involve their children in gratitude practices, such as leaving pennies for others to ride a mechanical pony.
Heather talks about the impact of gratitude on mental health and overall well-being, both for children and adults.
Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of making gratitude practices intentional and visual to help children understand and practice gratitude.

Gratitude as a Lifelong Practice

Heather and Kristina discuss how gratitude is a lifelong practice that can be taught and modeled for children.
They share personal stories of how gratitude has impacted their own lives and the lives of their children.
Heather talks about the importance of making gratitude practices intentional and visual to help children understand and practice gratitude.
Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of modeling gratitude for children, helping them develop a genuine appreciation for life’s blessings.

Further Reading:

Reference note:

In Episode 8, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

Attachment and Connection:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

The Power of Play:

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Understanding Temperaments:

Episode 8: Boundaries and Expectations, Part 2 of 2

In this episode Kristina and Heather, clinical social workers, discuss the importance of setting realistic expectations for children, balancing effort with perfectionism, and establishing clear, consistent boundaries. The conversation highlights the benefits of natural consequences over imposed ones and the necessity of following through with consequences. They emphasize the significance of body language, empathy, and offering choices, sharing personal anecdotes about handling a child’s perfectionism and the impact of forgetting items at school. They discuss how important it is to set developmentally appropriate expectations and how important, yet challenging, it can be for parents to be consistent role models.

Setting Realistic Expectations for Children

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of setting realistic expectations for children, emphasizing the balance between encouraging effort and not demanding perfection.
They highlight the need for clear, consistent boundaries and developmentally appropriate expectations.
The conversation includes strategies for establishing these expectations in their homes, such as offering choices and setting good examples.
Kristina and Heather stress the importance of following through with consequences and the benefits of natural consequences over imposed ones.

Balancing Effort and Perfectionism

Heather shares her experience of holding high expectations while also emphasizing the message of: “your best is always good enough.”
Kristina talks about dealing with a child who tends towards perfectionism, suggesting a reasonable amount of time and effort before moving on.
Heather recounts a story about explaining to her child the reasons behind her drawing skills and the importance of practice.
Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of determining and growing in the knowledge of who their child is and how to hold expectations appropriately.

“…So it’s determining, as a parent, who your child is, and is it the ‘we expect your best,’ or is it the ‘we expect a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable effort,’ because you have the child who whose paper is never done, because they can always edit and rewrite it one more time to make it better.

…In our home, we interpreted that to mean that we don’t demand perfection. We expect your best effort, and if that’s what’s produced from your best effort, that’s good enough. Doesn’t have to be perfect. Doesn’t have to be what you saw in your mind. But if you gave your best effort, not asking you to do it seventeen times. We asked for a best effort.”

Empathy and Communication in Parenting

Kristina and Heather emphasize the importance of empathy in parenting, sharing personal stories of how they handle their children’s emotions and frustrations.
They discuss the need for clear communication and setting boundaries, such as not allowing children to play parents against each other.
Heather shares a rule they had in their home about not asking the other parent if the first parent said “no.”

Handling Interruptions and Setting Boundaries

Heather and Kristina discuss strategies for handling interruptions, such as acknowledging the child and giving them a minute to speak.
They emphasize the importance of being consistent and clear with boundaries, even when it’s difficult.
Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of body language and non-verbal cues in communicating with children.

Developmentally Appropriate Expectations

Kristina and Heather further discuss the importance of having developmentally appropriate expectations for children.
They emphasize that children develop at their own pace and that it’s not helpful to compare them to older children.
Kristina talks about the importance of being a safe caregiver and not making children feel like they don’t measure up.
Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of being an ally to their children and apologizing when they behave poorly.

“We also need to have developmentally appropriate expectations, because our kids start real, real little with developing brains that do not have a lot of skill and capacity. And then, as they grow, they gain more skill. Hopefully, because we’ve taught them and they gain more capacity, right?

Setting and Enforcing Boundaries

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of setting clear, intentional boundaries and enforcing them consistently.
They talk about the importance of being firm but also reflecting on the boundaries to see if they need to be adjusted.
Kristina shares a story about her daughter wanting to stay up later and how they eventually moved the bedtime boundary.
Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of being consistent and clear with boundaries, even when it’s difficult.

“…Because we’re only as good as our reliability and our consistency. And that can trip us up, because it can be so tempting to move that fence for lots of different reasons. But our consistency is really what matters here, because that’s what goes back to being clear, and we say ‘clear is kind.’ And clear really is kind. When we can be consistent and our kids know exactly what to expect, it goes so much better.”

The Role of Body Language and Non-Verbal Cues

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of body language and non-verbal cues in communicating with children.
They emphasize that children are experts at reading facial expressions and body language.
Kristina shares a story about a child she worked with who always wanted the blue napkin and how she handled it.
Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of being aware of their facial expressions and body language to communicate effectively with their children.

“Our faces and our reactions…they know by looking at us if we’re angry, if we’re frustrated, there doesn’t have to be any words coming out, and they will know…children have only had that to rely on with their primary caregivers since they were born, before they were verbal. So they are experts at knowing what gets us going, what makes us angry, what causes us to react…We just have to remain, as parents, so aware of our facial expressions and our body language, because that is 90% of communication to kids.”

Offering Choices and Setting Good Examples

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of offering choices to children and setting good examples.
They talk about the importance of being consistent and clear with boundaries and offering choices within those boundaries.
Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of being consistent and clear with boundaries, even when it’s difficult.

Handling Consequences and Natural Consequences

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of following through with consequences, whether natural or logical.
They talk about the importance of being consistent and clear with consequences and the benefits of natural consequences.
Kristina shares a story about her daughter writing on her body with ink and how she handled it.
Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of being consistent and clear with consequences, even when it’s difficult.

“You get what you get and you don’t throw a fit.” They do throw a fit. They do, when they don’t get what they want. And we have a choice to either say, “Fine, I’m going to go find the blue napkin,” or I’m going to say to this other child, “Is it okay if I take that blue napkin and give it to the child who demands the blue napkin?”

Or do I hold the boundary of “you get what you get, and you don’t throw a fit,” and say, “I know you got the orange napkin. You were really hoping for the blue napkin. Today you have the orange. Oh I hear you. Wow. You are really upset about that. Yeah, you really hoped for the blue napkin today you have the orange and I know you can do it.” I know you can do it.

Right? Rinse and repeat. Empathy and then the reminder that you can do it: “You’ve got this.” And allowing them to move through that upset to the point where they can say, “Okay, well, I guess if I want a snack..I mean, I’m using the orange napkin.” But, boy, is it tempting to just be, like, “I’m just gonna get that blue napkin, because the screaming needs to end.”

Building Problem-Solving Skills in Children

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of building problem-solving skills in children.
They talk about the importance of allowing children to develop their own problem-solving skills and not rescuing them every time.
Kristina shares a story about her daughter forgetting things and how they established a system to help her remember.

“So my recommendation for parents…the first time your child forgets their whatever – science project, water bottle, headphones, lunch, money – whatever it might be, that the first time, if at all possible, you bring the item to them. And that is then when you establish the boundary of “You need to have what you need to have to leave the house in the morning. I will not be making runs to bring you things.”

Now, establishing the boundary is not enough. You also have to work with your child to come up with a system that is going to help them until they build the skill to remember those things on their own. What is the double-checking system that you have everything you need before you leave the door? Is it a list that we make the night before and we tape to the door?..Do we have a little dry erase board?…So you have that checklist before you leave the home of the items that you need. And each day, especially in the beginning, you do that checklist with your child, if that’s what’s going to work for them.

It could also be that you prepare those items with your child that need to go with you in an area. They’re all here. We’re not searching for them in the morning. We don’t have to remember that. Today’s the day I need to bring my gym shoes, because we already have your gym shoes sitting by your things to leave.

Further Reading and Resources:

Reference Note:

In this episode, we reference concepts that Susan Stiffelman, MFT writes about in her book, “Parenting without Power Struggles”. https://susanstiffelman.com

Nature-based Play and Education:

Books by Rachel A. Larimore, Ph.D: Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education and Nature-Based Learning by Dr. Rachel Larimore

Books by Richard Louv: Last Child in the Woods and Vitamin N

Natural Start Alliance

Children & Nature Network

National Association for the Education of Young Children (NAEYC)

Boundaries and Expectations:

Teaching Kids About Boundaries – why empathy and awareness play a major role

How to Set healthy Boundaries for Children: A Comprehensive Guide for Parents

Attachment and Connection:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

The Power of Play:

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Keirsey’s Temperament Theory

Understanding Temperaments:

Episode 8: Boundaries and Expectations, Part 2 of 2

Kristina 00:00

In this episode, we continue our conversation about boundaries and expectations, focusing on the importance of setting realistic expectations for our children.

Heather 00:11

We explore finding the balance between encouraging effort and not demanding perfection, especially for children with perfectionistic tendencies.

Kristina 00:19

We talk about setting clear, consistent boundaries, and the importance of having developmentally appropriate expectations. We’ll share some ways we establish these for our kids in our homes.

Heather 00:30

We also discuss the impact of body language and non-verbal cues on children, the importance of empathy, offering choices and setting good examples.

Kristina 00:40

We wrap up by reminding ourselves how important it is to follow through with consequences and the benefits of natural consequences over imposed ones. Easier said than done. Right?

Heather 00:50

Absolutely. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

Kristina 01:00

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma,

Heather 01:13

Kristina 01:35

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

Heather 01:41

Are you ready?

Heather and Kristina 01:41

Let’s hit the trails.

Heather 01:47

Kristina 01:59

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

Heather 02:08

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. So let’s talk about expectations. I feel like in our home, we held pretty high expectations. It was also our value that your best was always good enough, right? But we expected your best. And I think it’s tricky as kids grow too sometimes you know you want your expectations to be high enough that they have to work a bit. They have to have some grit. We’re trying to build resilience. We want them to be problem solvers, at least we did in our home, right? We want them to not give up so quickly. We want them to work enough at it, but also still be successful, because, like we said, if children can’t be good at succeeding, they can get tempted to be good at failing. So how do you feel? In your home you held those expectations to a standard.

Kristina 03:18

I love “your best is always good enough.” If you have a child who tends to be perfectionistic, I come at that a little differently. So that was my Grace. Things were never the way that she envisioned them to be, right? Her drawings never turned out the way she had envisioned them.

Heather 03:39

What she was going for, when they can’t get out their hand what they see in their mind, I feel like that’s a whole training ground, right? There it is.

Kristina 03:47

And so for Grace, for whom that perfectionism is part of who she is, it’s also part of my nurturing, which I need to own, which comes out of my own perfectionism. But for Grace, I would often say, “Reasonable amount of time. Reasonable effort. And then we move on.” So it wasn’t a “I have to crumple up the paper. I have to do it over and over and over and over and over and over and over, because it’s not looking the way I want it to look, and I’m getting so frustrated about it, right?”

Heather 04:19

Because that’s wanting to achieve perfection. Yes, whatever she saw in her mind. Yep, I remember Ava verbalizing to me, ‘Why can you draw so good? And I’m not good at it at all?” I’m like, ‘Sweetheart. I am at that time, I was like, 40, so I’m like, sweetheart. I am, like, way older than you. My hand is fully developed. It might have arthritis. I got all the bones I need in my hand, like it’s all developed. You’re just this little person who’s just getting there, like you are just perfecting how to hold this pencil.” But she wanted to be able to draw. Now, as a parent, did I dumb down my drawing? No, I just explained to her the why behind it. “You’re going to get there. And in fact, practice is going to make you better. And if you just chuck the colored pencil across the room, that doesn’t get us better, right? Maybe it feels good in the moment, but I do see that you’re frustrated.”

Kristina 05:12

So what can we do when we feel frustrated? That’s again, this teaching of how do you cope? How do you move through that? So it’s determining, as a parent, who your child is, and is it the “we expect your best,” or is it the “we expect a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable effort,” because you have the child who whose paper is never done, because they can always edit and rewrite it one more time to make it better.

Heather 05:44

In our home, we interpreted that to be that we don’t demand perfection. We expect your best effort, and if that’s what’s produced from your best effort, that’s good enough. Doesn’t have to be perfect. Doesn’t have to be what you saw in your mind. But if you gave your best effort, not asking you to do it seventeen times. We asked for a best effort. What they do with it in the midst of it is the coachable stuff, yes.

Kristina 06:11

So really, again, you’re on that quest of determining and growing in the knowledge of who your child is and how to hold that expectation in an appropriate place where they have the skills to meet the expectation. Each child develops at their own pace, right? So it’s not helpful to say to a child, “Oh, any twelve year old can do that. I mean, for crying out loud, you’re twelve.” That helps no one. That brings shame. It’s not taking a look to see does this child have the skills to meet this expectation?

Heather 06:47

It erodes their self esteem and confidence in themselves. It becomes their inner voice.

Kristina 06:52

And now all of a sudden, you’re not their safe caregiver that they’re attached to. It’s somebody who’s actually on the other side of the table, right? You’re not good enough. You do not measure up. There’s something wrong.

Heather 07:05

With an adversary versus ally relationship, we always want to be their ally, right?

Kristina 07:09

And when we’re not, we need to do everything we can to get back to that side of the table. Same team. And own what we’ve done that took us to the other side, right? I apologize a lot to my daughter. And because she is gracious and loving, she will often say, “Mommy, it’s okay, it’s okay, it’s fine.” And she, even as a pre -teen and young teenager, said things like, “Oh, Mommy, you were tired. You were frustrated.” I love the empathy. The Empathy is beautiful. She’s very empathetic. But it doesn’t mean then, if I’ve behaved poorly, that that’s just okay, right? So, using those same skills that we were talking about in helping our child express “I didn’t like it when you…”, I can say “I didn’t like it when I spoke this way to you. It didn’t feel good to me. I imagine it didn’t feel good to you. How can I make that better? Next time I will” and modeling the same thing we’re asking our children to do in their interactions with others. And that we ask them to do that.

Heather 08:14

Yeah, right. When they speak poorly to us, we’re going to go through that same process with them and walk them through that. As our kids grew, one of our primary rules, because we had three of them, was if you asked Mom or Dad anything, a request “Could so and so, come over?” and you didn’t get the answer you wanted, you could not then go ask the other parent. That was a big one for us. And that was a real hard boundary that we set. And if they crossed that boundary and did that and went to the other parent, it was like mandatory family meeting. Butts in seats. We’re gonna talk this through.

Kristina 09:00

They are not going to play us against each other.

Heather 09:03

No, and that goes back to your foundations again. Of this needs to be a place where we can trust each other that’s built in honesty. And our rule is, if you ask mom and she doesn’t give you the answer, you don’t get to run on over to dad and try again. Nope.

Kristina 09:23

And I mean, they ask us questions a thousand times a day, right? So it’s not always reasonable to be able to say, “Let me ask whomever my wife, let me ask my partner. Let me ask somebody else about that before I give the answer.” Because oftentimes, as parents, we don’t have the whole story, right? It’ll be like, oh, here come, you know, Vince and Grace trucking into the kitchen, and they’re headed out to get donuts in the morning. And there was actually a task that I had given earth that needed to be completed before she could do those things. But he didn’t know that, and she thought, I have struggled here. That’s right, we’re going for a donut to Donutville. Like, it doesn’t get better than that right? So it’s also when you can check in or saying, you know, Vince, saying, “Oh, I didn’t realize you had to get that done first. First, complete the task, then we can go for donuts.”

Heather 10:13

And it’s also, like, it just gets busy. I’m in the house. I’m doing things. It’s a Saturday. There are kids ramming around everywhere. He’s in the garage or doing lawn work. He’s outside, doing stuff out there. The kids want to have more kids over, and maybe I’m at my brink, and I don’t want that, but my husband doesn’t realize that. So the kids are like, “Ooh, Dad’s outside. He’ll monitor us. I’ll ask him instead. Mom said ‘no,’ but I’ll go ask him.” Nope. Not how it works, and they needed to be taught like that does erode our relationship. That is not what we want. We want to have a good marriage. We want to always be your parents. We want to be a family forever. And that puts a crack in our foundation.

Kristina 10:57

That behavior right there? You asked. I answered. It is done. Yep,

Heather 11:01

Yep. Exactly. Another thing – and this goes back to how old is the child? Is it a reasonable ask? And for how long when you’re in a conversation, maybe after a soccer game or a ball game or whatever, and the adults are gathering and we’re in a conversation, and the child comes up and wants to interrupt. Interrupting was one of those things that I wanted to teach my children not to do. I wanted them to wait and then move in appropriately when the time was correct. But if you’re in a group of people, it can be really hard for them. So our rule was, when they were little, if they just came up and they put their hand on my leg or my arm that signaled that they had something that they needed to say to me, and what I would do in that moment is turn to them, acknowledge them, and give them the one minute, like just one minute, hold up one finger.

Kristina 11:53

And that needs to be a minute, not, well, that’s sometimes referred to as a “mother’s minute,” which can be twenty minutes long.

Heather 11:59

Because that’s an unreasonable expectation. And it erodes their trust in you. Because if you tell them “one minute,” then at the very least you need to say just “one second, folks. Here, you’ve been very patient. Thank you for waiting so well. What can I help you with?” and acknowledge that, and then who knows what it might be? “Okay, I hear you. We’re gonna let me finish up here. I’ll be five minutes, and then we’ll dot, dot, dot…” whatever it might be. But you need to at least acknowledge and like you said, it can’t be twenty minutes. Because no four year old in the history of the world can wait twenty minutes without interrupting. They just can’t do it. Probably even a six or eight year old can’t do that for twenty minutes.

Kristina 12:51

For crying out loud, I can’t do that for twenty minutes. When there’s something I’m really needing to do or really, really wanting to do, it’s hard to be patient like that.

Heather 12:59

So let’s recap boundaries and expectations. We want to have clear rules and expectations that are rooted in our family values and what we want to teach

Kristina 13:13

Yes. We want there to be few but important, very intentional boundaries, fences that we have erected, they can’t be everywhere, but we need to choose them carefully based on those values, and then we need to say our expectations out loud. What do we expect? What happens if that boundary is breached? Correct?

Heather 13:38

We also need to have developmentally appropriate expectations, because our kids start real, real little with developing brains that have not a lot of skill and capacity. And then, as they grow, they gain more skill. Hopefully, because we’ve taught them and they gain more capacity, right?

Kristina 14:01

And that if a child is exhibiting maladaptive behavior, it is most often because we have set an expectation they are not able to meet. They do not have the skills to meet it. If it’s an expectation that they have previously been able to meet, then we move into being the detective of our home and searching for the “why this child not able to meet this expectation at this time, in this moment?” because there is a reason. If they could do it before, and they can’t do it now. And so it’s striking what we think as a parent, using a good sound judgment, is the perfect balance of challenging them enough and stretching them enough, but still allowing them to be successful. Yes. And building the skill. Every interaction in a day is an opportunity to either model or build skill. Now I’d be exhausted if I took every opportunity in the day to do those things, but there are plenty, and our children need us to model and teach them the skills to be able to manage life when they don’t get their way, when they’re met with frustration, when they’re disappointed, when they’re not sure how to communicate, when they don’t yet have the pause.

Heather 15:25

And let’s talk about being firm and consistent, because we’re only as good as our reliability and our consistency. And that can trip us up, because it can be so tempting to move that fence for lots of different reasons, lots of reasons, but our consistency is really what matters here, because that’s what goes back to being clear. And we say ‘clear is kind.’ And clear really is kind when we can be consistent and our kids know exactly what to expect, it goes so much better.

Kristina 16:03

Yeah. And it’s important that if a child is kicking the fence right? We don’t let it go over. But it may give us pause to reflect on the boundary. It may be: it’s time for that boundary to move. I remember this with my daughter with bedtime. She had the same bedtime for a long time, and then she started kicking the fence right like “I want to stay up later. Everybody gets to stay up later. I’m not tired yet.” Kick, kick, kick, kick. And we held firm: “This is your bedtime. This is when you’re headed up. I can’t tell you when you’re going to fall asleep, but I can tell you when we’re headed up to bed.” So after she kicked the fence a number of times, it was time for her father and I to sit down and say, “Hmm, maybe it is time to move that fence.” And so then to be able to say to her, “We’ve decided that now at this age, this will be the new bedtime,” and that’s keeping it developmentally appropriate and not responding to the kick in the moment, but reflecting on the boundary.

Heather 17:01

That’s a really important distinguishing factor. What we say matters. How we say it. It also really matters our body language. I don’t remember the exact statistic, but what kids, especially young children, interpret first, is not our words, it’s how our face looks. It’s how our body is moving. They assess all of that.

Kristina 17:27

Children have been studying our faces their whole lives. That’s how they initially began to understand, am I safe? Am I not safe? Are my needs going to be met? Are they not before they ever have language.

Heather 17:41

Our faces and our reactions like impulse, action, reaction, right? So they know by looking at us if we’re angry, if we’re frustrated, there doesn’t have to be any words coming out, and they will know we have this with co-workers. We have this as adults with one another. It’s very true, but children have only had that to rely on with their primary caregivers since they were born, since they were born before they were verbal. So they are experts at knowing what gets us going, what makes us angry, what causes us to react, and so it’s really important when we’re holding those consistent boundaries, and when we are setting up and clearly communicating the rules and expectations that how we say things is so important to their interpretation of the what we just have to remain as parents, so aware of our facial expressions in our body language, because that is 90% of communication to kids. Am I foe, or am I friend?

Kristina 18:59

Am I ally? Am I adversary? Am I here to help, or am I here to punish?

Heather 19:04

And we notice this so much in the setting that we work in, because we’re not primary caregivers, right? And so we have to very quickly move into what could be an escalated situation and bring the calm down and immediately have that child trust us, right? To be able to approach them. And what that looks like for us is getting real low, reall low, letting our face soften very, very much and be able to say to them, “I’m here to help” and pause if something has happened

Kristina 19:40

Right. In a low tone of voice, not in a “Hey, hey, hey, what’s happening here?” That doesn’t help the children want to be helped by you.

Heather 19:49

It doesn’t mean there aren’t times that we don’t have to raise our voice and say, “Stop your feet” because we don’t want them to go near the pond or whatever it might be. For safety reasons, we have to do those things too, but in those moments where we’re trying to communicate calm and get the child to quickly connect with us, all of that body language is so important, really important. And what we know is, with kids, it’s not just what we say, it’s how we say it. It’s not our words that mean more. It’s our actions. Those are all so important to kids. Also proposing alternatives and offering choices to kids when they can be really upset about something in the moment. And we’re holding a boundary, but if we can still, within that boundary, we’re going to the car. “Would you like to hold my hand? Or would you like to walk by my side?” “Would you like me to carry you? Would you like to hold my hand?” Yeah, choices state what’s happening, but then we offer a choice because it offers them an option to be in charge.

Kristina 20:58

Goes back to what we were talking about in a previous episode where we talked about empathy, expectation, choice. “I know you’d really like to stay at the pool longer. We’ve had so much fun. It’s time to go. You may hold my hand, or you may carry the bag,” or whatever the choice is that I’m willing to offer as we go to the car.

Heather 21:20

I said that incorrectly, it offers them initiative is what it offers them, the opportunity to grow that skill of initiative, right? And to say what’s best for them. That’s another piece that I love, “What’s best for you you?” When you give a choice, that’s a powerful thing for kids to be like, “Oh, what is best for me?” It’s really good reflection thing for them. I like those words. I use them a lot at work, you give option A and you give option B. “What’s best for you?”

Kristina 21:52

Yeah, it’s another opportunity to have a little pause.

Heather 21:56

The final thing, perhaps the most difficult: set a good example. As parents, we have to practice what we preach.

Kristina 22:07

There’s a child that I worked with some time ago, and this is not unique to this particular child. This is something that we all experience. This child loved the color blue and always wanted the blue napkin when we were getting ready to have a meal or a snack. Well, the napkins were all different colors, but this child wanted the blue, always the blue. And I don’t know if you have done this, Heather. I have done this, and it was from years working at an elementary school where we would say, “You get what you get and you don’t throw a fit.” Yep, exactly. “You get what you get and you don’t throw a fit.” They do throw a fit. They do when they don’t get what they want. And we have a choice to either say, “Fine, I’m going to go find the blue napkin,” or I’m going to say to this other child, “Is it okay if I take that blue napkin and give it to the child who demands the blue napkin?” Or do I hold the boundary of you get what you get, and you don’t throw off it, and saying, “I know you got the orange napkin. You were really hoping for the blue napkin. Today you have the orange.”

Heather 23:12

“Oh I hear you. Wow. You are really upset about that. Yeah, you really hoped for the blue napkin today you have the orange and I know you can do it.” I know you can do it, right? Rinse and repeat, empathy and then the reminder that you can do it: “You’ve got this.” And allowing them to move through that upset to the point where they can say, “Okay, well, I guess if I want a snack, I mean, I’m using the orange napkin.” But, boy, is it tempting to just be, like, “ I’m just gonna get that blue napkin, because the screaming needs to end.”

Heather 23:50

It’s like when we’re in the store and there’s a screaming child and it’s ours, and they see all the food, and it’s like, I am just gonna open this box of granola bars and put it in your face, like, eat it. Just make the crying stop. And then I know I’m gonna go to the store the next time, and I am going to be punished forever with the one granola bar that I let them put in their face hole.

Kristina 24:30

Yep, in that moment, yep, because we ought to draw that back. Not just the granola bar in the face hole. It’s also when we say “Here. Just have my phone. Yes, here. Just take my phone because I need you to stop the screaming.” We need to get this task completed, and that’s my solution. Phone for you, quiet for me. Yay. We can move through the rest of our shopping.

Heather 24:50

In that moment, you just think, “Oh,

Kristina 24:53

Thank you.”

Heather 24:56

And then later we’re like, “Oh,damn it.”

Kristina 24:57

Yes. I did that to myself. I did that.

Heather 25:02

Yeah. In a weak moment. We all have them, we all do and it will happen, and we can draw it back. But it takes more work. The other thing that I want to talk about is following through with consequences is so important. Yeah, natural or logical? We know natural consequences are the better consequences. They’re the ones that just you didn’t wear your coat. No, you’re gonna get cold, right? You don’t want your mittens. Your hands are cold. And, I mean, those are no big deals. We navigate that all the time at school. It’s like, you just put your mittens on, then we’re not gonna get into these bitter battles over coats and mittens, because kids will very quickly learn, right? Oh, natural consequence. Now, my body’s cold, my hands are cold, whatever.

Kristina 25:52

So I was raised that we weren’t allowed to write on ourselves with marker or with pen or things like that. I think there was some belief that I had instilled in me that it was going to poison my blood, or something like, if I used pen to write on my hand. It was just something that was not acceptable in my family.

Heather 26:11

Growing up, we were always told ink was going to poison us, yeah.,

Kristina 26:15

Right.

Heather 26:16

It was an 80s thing.

Kristina 26:18

Must have been 70s thing. I mean, it did. It started early. But that was kind of an ingrained belief I’d never challenged before. So my daughter started drawing on her hands and on her arms and on her legs, lots of creativity happening on her extremities. And I didn’t like it, so I said to her, “You are not allowed to write on your body with ink or with markers,” and I may have even said it’s not safe. I don’t know if maybe I cause I did not like that. And maybe somewhere deep in my brain, I actually thought it would harm her. So she wasn’t old enough to question that. She was maybe in second or third grade. And nope, she came home again and she had written all over herself. And I said, “Well, that’s it. You lose tech time.” She said to me, second or third grader, she says, “Mom, that doesn’t make any sense. Tech time has nothing to do with writing on my skin. How about you don’t let me use pens anymore. Yeah, that is more logical, isn’t it?”But the tech time is going to hurt more, and how can I possibly keep all of the pens away from my child? Yeah, it wasn’t a great consequence, and it was humbling to have my little one call me out on it.

Heather 27:47

Well, I think it’s an indicator that probably your consequences had been more solid up to that point.

Kristina 27:56

She’s like, “Those don’t even connect, Mom. Yeah, like up your game, woman.”

Heather 28:03

Then later, she’s like, “It’s okay, mom, your consequence sucked, but you were tired.”

Kristina 28:10

She is my child. Oozing empathy. Yep.

Heather 28:14

This is not easy. And this gets harder giving consequences. Yes, I think it gets harder when they get older, because I don’t know why. To be honest, I don’t know why. Maybe it’s just always hard for me. I think it was harder as my kids got older. Maybe it’s just what I remember best, but I distinctly remember that Zack was invited to go away with a friend for a weekend up north. He is an avid outdoorsman. He loves to hunt, fish, ride ATVs, all of it. And he was taking his quad. They were taking other machines, and they were going to go for this weekend. A family that we really love and spent a lot of time with and had their son over as well frequently, and I don’t even remember. This is the thing. I don’t even remember what he did. I have no// do you have any records?

Kristina 29:11

I know I don’t.

Heather 29:12

All I know was that we had a conversation, and whatever he had done, the consequence was he couldn’t go, I’m guessing, knowing who Zack is, and his disdain for school and all things school work related, was that he probably didn’t finish something by a deadline, and that was just a requirement. I’m not asking you to love it, but, kid, we have got to get you through school. And you have to do some level of work. Yes, we expect your best, a good effort. I don’t think we always got his best, because we didn’t demand A’s. Like, if he got a C, I was like, winning, and that was fine. And so I think it’s probably he didn’t meet a deadline.

Kristina 30:04

And you had stated the consequence.

Heather 30:07

It had been voiced previously, because I wouldn’t have gone to that unless I had previously stated it. So he made the choice to not do whatever it was, or to do whatever he wasn’t supposed to I’m not sure, because I don’t remember the exact scenario. All that I remember is sitting with him on his bed and saying, “You know that we cannot allow you to go. And he was like “Mom, but-“ and there was this upset. And I said, “I know. I know, honey. This is not easy for me. Do you think that I want to see you hurt and suffer and be miserable because you can’t do this?” No. “Yeah. So no, I do feel awful. I wanted you to go, right? You would love that. Of course, I want you to go and experience that and have all of that fun. I didn’t do this to you. Who did this to you?” I did. And those are the hard truths that we have to help them process through well, and “I did not do this to you, son.” Yes. “Who did this to you?” I did.

Kristina 31:25

I remember you calling me in the midst of that situation.

Heather 31:30

Well, it was over. I had done it, and he knew he wasn’t going and he took it. This is some of the power in it. He took it so beautifully. It almost made me feel guilty. Yes, because he was able to say,” I did do this.” Yep, of course, you have to enforce it. And I think we talked about this is a consequence of your actions. You don’t get to be around here this weekend and be pissy and moody and unkind and angry to the people in this house and mope around. And he was like, “I will not” and you’re gonna get whatever it was done and you’re gonna do it, yeah, because it’s the right thing to do.” I know. And he just took it so beautifully that I was like, “Oh, he’s such a good kid. Should I let him go?

Kristina 32:27

No. No, you called me just like that, saying, “But he’s, he’s taken responsibility for it. He’s owned it. I mean, it really would be so great if he could go up north. He was really looking forward to it. It’s a great opportunity.”

Heather 32:39

And I remember saying, “He’s gonna have so much fun, and I know I can’t let him go. And you were like, “You can’t let him go.” And I was like, I know, just need to say it again.

Kristina 32:48

This is one of those times when you need to be able to call somebody in your village who can say, “I stand with you in holding this boundary. You’re doing the right thing.”

Heather 32:56

You’re doing the right thing is not easy. Nope. But it’s the lesson they need to learn. But I am here supporting you as you hold that boundary that kid is better off today as a twenty year old, because we did that work back then, right? Not easy. More responsible. A better problem solver. Better at getting his crap done

Kristina 33:21

All of it. And better at owning his own choices, right? “I’m not gonna blame you because of something that I chose.”

Heather 33:29

And he didn’t put himself in a victim place, which I think as a parent, was what I celebrated so much. Make himself a victim. He owned it, which I was like, yes, but then I almost was willing to undo it all right? And I needed to call and say, we can’t. I can’t. Nope, you can’t. Don’t let me. Don’t let me. Nope.

Kristina 33:54

That is a trap we fall into easily.

Heather 34:00

This is middle school. Real life.

Kristina 34:03

Holy crap. And if you have a child like mine, it was before middle school, during middle school and after middle school, because she’s always thinking about what’s ahead, very unaware of what’s in her present or what’s in her past. And so she forgets things a lot.

Heather 34:19

And my oldest also attention and focus just took longer to grow and develop. And he needed all of those very real life experiences we always said “He’s gonna have to try it and feel the consequence of it before he gets it,” because it’s just how he learned. So going off to middle school was a real trick for him. It just requires more stuff, more independence, but also your water bottle, you have to have all of your different classes organized. He was not great at organizing that stuff. It was like, oh, the paper for history could be in the English folder, and the paper for math could be in the history folder. And undoubtedly, there were seventeen of them crumpled at the bottom underneath the folders. And where is my calculator, and where is this and where is that? And so I had to have the saying that we just lived into and became kind of our mantra as all of our kids moved through this phase, and that saying was “your lack of planning does not cause an emergency on my part.” That maybe sounds cruel. Oh, it’s the cold hard truth, though. It is the cold hard truth, and it’s the mantra that I needed in my head for my own reminder, because I would have been running here, there and everywhere to get this kid what he needed.

Kristina 36:04

But it happens for so many of us, right? Our child has invested time and energy and their soul into a project. Maybe it’s a poster they had to make, or maybe it’s something that they need for a presentation, or it could be anything the science fair when they’ve invested and worked on something and then they forget it.

Heather 36:30

Yes. And here’s the thing that I want everybody to think about: if this is your child, you must let them develop the skills to get themselves out of these situations, because it is who they are. And my son had to do that, and he is wildly charming. Something I say in my house a lot is, don’t you dare use your smolder on your mother. Smolders don’t work on mothers. No, they don’t. I grew you in my body, your smolder is rendered ineffective. But you know what? It’s very common for children with dyslexia and ADHD, they develop wicked good people skills because they have to, right? Because they do so many of those types of just “I don’t have this” or “I’m not prepared for this” up that they have to get charming, they have to be witty, they have to be likable, or they would not make it through school. And that was my son.

Kristina 37:35

So my recommendation for parents, because so many of us experience this is the first time your child forgets their whatever science project, water bottle, headphones, lunch, money, whatever it might be that the first time, if at all possible, you bring the item to them. And that is then when you establish the boundary of “you need to have what you need to have to leave the house in the morning. I will not be making runs to bring you things.” Now, establishing the boundary is not enough. You also have to work with your child to come up with a system that is going to help them until they build the skill to remember those things on their own. What is the double-checking system that you have everything you need before you leave the door? Is it a list that we make the night before and we tape to the door, nice little visual that we check it off before we leave? Do we have a little dry erase board? We used lots of dry erase boards with Grace growing up, and still do to some extent. There’s a little dry erase board that’s right by the door that we will be heading out of, and it lists the things we need so like at our preschools, before we leave our playscapes with the children to go on a hike, we have a hike checklist where we say, Does every teacher have their walkie talkie? Yes. Check, do we have the first aid kit? Check. Do I have my backpack as the teacher? Check. So you have that checklist before you leave the home of the items that you need. And each day, especially in the beginning, you do that checklist with your child, if that’s what’s going to work for them. It could also be that you prepare those items with your child that need to go with you in an area. They’re all here. We’re not searching for them in the morning. We don’t have to remember that. Today’s the day I need to bring my gym shoes, because we already have your gym shoes sitting by your things to leave.

Heather 39:50

So really, it’s about having processes in place that work for you and your child and your family, and it’s about not rescuing them. Yeah. Every time and allowing them to develop their problem-solving skills. I used to say to my kids, “You get one time,” preventatively, like, “I’ll bring something to school one time. You get to decide what it is. If it’s that homework that’s due, if it’s that permission slip, if it’s your lunch, whatever, but you better choose carefully what that one thing is, because I’m going to do it one time.”

Kristina 40:22

You can bet that the homework that they didn’t bring in is not what they’re going to know one time.

Heather 40:27

It was somebody’s homework, and I forget what the consequence was if that didn’t get turned in, but there was a domino effect, and so they used it wisely. But I never got called for lunches. I never got I guess they can survive without food and water, or they charmed somebody for some others, but I did get called once for homework,

Kristina 40:47

And if your child continues to call home because they continue to forget things, it just means that you need to come up with a different system, that whatever the system you came up with is not sufficient. It’s not working. And doing that work with the child even better.

Heather 41:04

And apparently this happens a lot. I remember emails, and I remember the one time I brought that stuff in, there was like a drop off zone for, like, lunches and water bottles. And I’m thinking, “Oh, I might be a cold hearted human.”

Kristina 41:23

Yeah so you saw that this is happening on the regular for all of us, that our children are forgetting things, and that too often we feel that we need to rescue them. What will they do if they don’t have their lunch?

Heather 41:36

What will they do? Come home hungry? Not the worst thing. Eat a better dinner.

Kristina 41:43

Yeah, not the worst thing, no.

Heather 41:44

And that’s kind of I’ve been this parent who annoyingly will sometimes say, “What’s the worst that could happen?” What’s the worst that could happen? Because we have to check ourselves on that. If they don’t have their lunch, what’s the worst that could happen? They come home hungry. They come home a little dehydrated. If they don’t have their water, well, there are drinking fountains there.

Kristina 42:08

I mean, yep. Get yourself a drink if you are thirsty. But maybe you won’t forget it tomorrow. Or maybe if remembering things is a challenge for you, we’ll come up with a difference.

Heather 42:20

Certainly if we don’t stretch them to do better, they won’t. And that’s the piece of the scaffolded skill building we want to grow them into the best versions of themselves. And I knew that if I rescued it wasn’t going to end well for my son, and that he had to be able to get to a point where he could figure it out, and then he got to be such a good problem solver.

Kristina 42:53

Paying attention to your own child’s skill development. What’s the trajectory? What’s the timeline? Grace, when she was in fifth grade, her teaching team just decided they were going to have these milk crates located outside the Spanish room, where if they found any of Grace’s things, they just put them in the milk crates, and then it was Grace’s responsibility to take them from the milk crates and get them either to her locker or get them home, because at that point, she did not yet have the ability to keep track of all of the things. Well, I can tell you, we don’t have milk crates anymore. She’s able to keep track of her things at school. She has built those skills. But at the time when you think, Oh for crying out loud, a fourth grader, never gonna get there. We’re never going to get there. And a fifth grader should be able to hang on to these things to say, “No, Grace isn’t able to do that yet. We’re growing her ability to do it, but she can’t do it yet, and that’s okay.”

Heather 43:57

Yeah, it is okay. And it’s part of the growing. So setting boundaries for our children is one of the most important aspects of parenting. So much goes into it and so much comes out of it.

Kristina 44:14

It’s really setting them up for success as they experience the ability to meet expectations to manage the disappointment and the frustration when they don’t. Knowing their limits and having that be predictable sets them up to feel safe and secure.

Heather 44:33

And to be able to go on and manage in the real world alongside of others.

Kristina 44:42

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina.

Heather 44:48

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey. Until

Kristina 44:53

Until next time

Heather and Kristina

See you on the trails!

Kristina

Heather 45:10

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Kristina 45:18

Heather 45:30

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 7: Boundaries and Expectations, Part 1 of 2

Clinical social workers and moms Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of setting clear boundaries with children to promote their success and family well-being.

They emphasize that boundaries should be consistent and not overly rigid, as this helps children understand acceptable behaviors and values.

They also highlight the need for parents to communicate expectations clearly and consistently, as our kids are not mind-readers.

The conversation also covers handling sibling conflicts, teaching children to respect boundaries, and the significance of emotional safety.

They stress that boundaries should evolve as children grow, focusing on teaching values and nurturing their development.

Setting the Stage for Boundaries and Expectations

Kristina explains the focus on setting up boundaries and expectations to promote children’s success and family well-being.

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of consistently enforcing boundaries without being overly rigid or confusing.

They emphasize that boundaries are not just restrictions but tools for teaching skills and reinforcing values.

The Importance of Clear Boundaries

Heather discusses the significance of clear boundaries in teaching children acceptable behaviors and reinforcing family values.

They discuss how boundaries are essential for teaching children what is acceptable and not acceptable in various settings, such as the grocery store, restaurant, and church.

Heather encourages the understanding that boundaries are a vehicle for teaching children values and foundations, rather than a means of achieving obedience.

Kristina and Heather agree that clear expectations and boundaries are crucial for children’s success and the overall joy of parenting.

Challenges of Setting and Enforcing Boundaries

Kristina shares her personal struggle with setting boundaries, often giving in to her child’s requests for “just one more.”

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of maintaining boundaries consistently to avoid confusion for children.

They highlight that children will challenge boundaries as part of their developmental process, seeking more autonomy and independence.

Kristina emphasizes that parents need to decide where to set boundaries and how to maintain them, ensuring that boundaries do not become punishments.

Consistency and Repetition in Enforcing Boundaries

Heather explains that children need to see boundaries held consistently to understand that they do not move.

Kristina shares an example of her own inconsistency in enforcing tech time boundaries, leading to confusion for her child.

The hosts discuss the importance of setting boundaries ahead of time to avoid responding to children’s requests in the moment.

Heather and Kristina agree that clear, consistent boundaries help children learn and feel safe, leading to more cooperative behavior.

Teaching Children to Respect Boundaries

Heather shares an example of setting a boundary at a water slide to prevent her child from being sucked into the vortex.

The hosts discuss the importance of teaching children to respect boundaries through repetition and practice.

Kristina emphasizes that boundaries should not be moved in response to children’s requests, as this sends a confusing message.

Heather and Kristina agree that clear, consistent boundaries help children learn to respect and follow rules.

Handling Sibling Conflicts and Emotional Safety

Heather and Kristina discuss how to handle conflicts between siblings, emphasizing the importance of emotional safety.

The hosts share an example of a conflict between their daughters, where Heather intentionally turned her back to the perpetrator to avoid giving attention to negative behavior.

Kristina explains the importance of focusing on the victim and teaching the perpetrator appropriate behavior.

The hosts emphasize that boundaries should protect children from physical harm, property damage, and emotional harm caused by other children.

Teaching Children to Communicate Their Needs

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of teaching children to communicate their needs and desires appropriately.

The hosts share examples of how to teach children to ask for what they want instead of taking it or throwing tantrums.

Kristina emphasizes the importance of setting boundaries that are developmentally appropriate and teach children valuable skills.

Heather and Kristina agree that clear, consistent boundaries help children learn to communicate effectively and respect others.

Adapting Boundaries as Children Grow

Heather and Kristina discuss how boundaries need to adapt as children grow and become more capable.

The hosts emphasize that boundaries should teach children values and help them grow into responsible individuals.

Heather explains that boundaries are a way for parents to nurture their children and help them become the people they want to see them be.

- Kristina and Heather agree that clear, consistent boundaries are essential for raising happy, healthy children.

Key Takeaways:

We want to establish clear boundaries and expectations with children proactively, not just in response to their behavior.

We want to consistently enforce boundaries without being overly rigid or confusing.

We want to teach children skills to respond appropriately when they feel frustrated, like asking for something instead of taking it.

When a child breaks a boundary, we want to respond with empathy, teach the appropriate behavior, and give them a chance to try again.

We want to help children develop a “pause” before reacting impulsively, by asking “What’s your plan?”

Some tips to create clear and consistent boundaries and expectations for children:

Establish boundaries and expectations proactively, not just reactively. Discuss them with children ahead of time so they understand the rules.

Use clear, specific language when communicating boundaries. Avoid vague terms like “be good” or “don’t misbehave.” Instead, say things like “hands on your knees”, “feet stay on the ground”, “whispers only” or “match my voice.”

Enforce boundaries consistently every time, without exceptions. If you allow exceptions, it can confuse and undermine the boundary.

Involve children in setting some boundaries and expectations. Give them age-appropriate choices within the limits you set.

Post visual reminders of key rules and expectations around the house so everyone can reference them.

Be a model of the behavior you expect. Children are more likely to follow rules if they see their parents following them too.

Use natural consequences when boundaries are crossed, rather than punishments. This helps children learn from their mistakes.

The key is being proactive, specific, and consistent. This sets your children up for success in meeting your family’s expectations.

Episode 7: Boundaries and Expectations, Part 1 of 2

Heather 00:00

This episode is the start of a two part series on boundaries and expectations.

Kristina 00:05

We’ll discuss how we proactively set up boundaries and expectations with our children in a way that promotes their success and our family’s overall wellbeing.

Heather 00:15

We talk about how to consistently enforce boundaries with our children without being overly rigid or confusing.

Kristina 00:22

We’ll also discuss strategies we can use to help our children develop the skills to respond appropriately when they feel frustrated, like when they want something that belongs to another person or a sibling.

Heather 00:33

We like to say boundaries are not just fences we put up, but they are also great tools for teaching skills and reinforcing our values and our kids. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood.

Kristina 00:49

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma,

Heather 01:02

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good, long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

Kristina 01:24

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

Heather 01:30

Are you ready?

Heather and Kristina 01:31

Let’s hit the trails.

Heather 01:37

Kristina 01:50

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature -based initiatives.

Heather 01:57

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org, to learn more about the ODC Networks’, mission and impact. So today, we’re going to be talking about boundaries and expectations, why they’re important, how they can be tricky, because they are tricky. I think for a lot of people, some of us hold really tight boundaries. Some of us struggle to set boundaries and keep them real loose, and then that’s confusing, especially to children. So we’re going to talk about what makes a really good boundary. Why good clear boundaries are important, and what they allow in our family. Boundaries allow us as parents to teach our children what we believe are acceptable behaviors in our homes in other settings where we take our children. For me, it was the grocery store. It might have been a restaurant. It was at church. All of those different places that we go as a family, we have the opportunity as parents to teach our children what we deem acceptable and not acceptable, and really, I think we as parents sometimes don’t connect, or don’t realize or know that boundaries are a vehicle for us to teach our children our values and our foundations, and I think as parents, sometimes we just don’t realize that maybe it’s that we’re focusing too much on a rule, or maybe it’s that we’re focusing like we talked about before, on obedience, yeah, and we don’t realize that so much of discipline is just how we live with our children in our homes on the daily, and that boundaries are one of those vehicles, a really, really good and powerful one to teach our children our values through what is acceptable, what is not acceptable, what is going to elicit a consequence. All of those things are really important, and they’re really important for our children to have a clear understanding of and they impact who they become. It impacts what we allow in our families, how we teach respect, care, compassion for one another, is going to impact how our children launch into the world and then respect others, treat others, care for others, show compassion for others. And that’s the piece that I think sometimes we don’t realize, as parents, we have that influence.

Kristina 04:45

Oh, absolutely. I think that we can be lulled into the sense of we can just roll with the punches and see where the day takes us. And some of us have temperaments that lend themselves more. To that type of parenting

Heather 05:01

Exactly. Some of us hold those boundaries real tight because we are firmly rooted in tradition or in stewardship or are more duty bound. And then there are other temperaments that just feel boundaries to be confining, yeah, and they suck the creativity out of life, or they suck some of the joy out of life. And so that gets really tricky, and we have to know who we are as a parent, and it goes back to also knowing who your child is as a child.

Kristina 05:37

So one of the reasons that we are so passionate about talking about boundaries and expectations and having them be clear out-loud expectations we cannot expect another human being to meet an expectation or to remain within a boundary when they don’t know what it is. So one of the reasons it’s so important to us to talk about it is because once you have established expectations and boundaries and they’re out loud, it makes the journey so much more smooth. It allows children to be successful because they know what the expectations are, and parenting becomes more joyful.

Heather 06:21

It absolutely does. And I remember a way long time ago, I think this was even before I had children, because sometimes we think they just know what we expect without us saying it, and they don’t. Sometimes I used to think that my spouse should know, that they should be able to know because they know me deeply. And someone said to me, “Well, they can’t read your mind. It’s not really fair to expect a certain outcome when you’re not sharing what you need.” And I was like, “I’m a therapist” I was like, “Oh, I guess that isn’t really great practice.”

Kristina 07:00

I remember my mother telling my sister when she was first married, ‘Honey, tell him what you need, and then act like he came up with it all on his own. That’s like the secret of success in a marriage.”

Heather 07:13

It’s the secret sauce, right there, folks. You heard it here.

Kristina 07:17

They can’t know if we don’t tell them.

Heather 07:19

Absolutely. And it’s not fair to have an expectation not share what it is, and then get really resentful. And sometimes we do those things with our spouses, with our children. So clear expectations and boundaries are super important so people can be successful. And we say this all the time a child who is not good at succeeding can get really tempted to get good at failing, and we never want that. We don’t want that for our children, for ourselves, for our spouse. We want everybody to feel successful because it brings joy to our home.

Kristina 08:00

Boundaries can be really tricky for parents. They can be tricky to establish. They can be tricky to enforce. I know, just because of who I am, that I’m much more prone to say that, “Oh, just one more time” after I’ve set a boundary. Like “We’re going to leave the pool at two o’clock. You have five more minutes. You may do one more thing in the pool.” And so there’s one more awesome slide down the slide, and a big splash, and then it would be time to go. But Grace would say, “Just one more. Just one more.” And I’m prone to say, “Oh, sure. Just one more time.”

Heather 08:34

We’re having so much fun. Just one beautiful day. We need to soak this in. Just do it one more time, right?

Kristina 08:41

But you can bet after that one more time, there will be the request for one more time, one more time, one more time, and then I can get frustrated with something I have set up on my very own, right? I said: here’s the boundary we’re going to be leaving at this time, and then I just blew the boundary right over, right? Sure, one more time. May I have a cookie? Yeah. May I have another one? Sure. I mean, they’re really good, aren’t they? To me, it felt happy to be doing those things like, yeah, we can do this one more time. Sure, we can do that. And what I was inadvertently doing is blowing my boundaries, which we talk about being fences that we establish for safety. We establish those fences for teaching skills, like you had mentioned, teaching manners.

Heather 09:33

Well it marks the territory. It marks the area, and it marks the line at which point you’ve crossed the boundary.

Kristina 09:43

And if we allow our fences to be erected haphazardly, we just kind of do it on the fly, and the children don’t know where that fence is, they will run into it, and then we have a choice about how we’re going to respond to the child who runs into the fence.

Heather 10:02

And we have to understand that children are going to challenge the fence. Yes, really, their developmental job, right? They’re seeking more autonomy as they grow. They’re trying to become independent, and in doing so, they’re going to try to climb the fence. They’re going to kick it. They’re going to shake it, some more than others, again, because there are some children that are just more compliant naturally, by nature, by temperament, and then there are others that also by nature and temperament, are the ones that are going to throw stones at that fence. They’re gonna shake it vigorously and they’re gonna kick it and try to make it go over.

Kristina 10:47

So we as the adults get to decide where we are going to establish the fences and then how we are going to maintain them. The fence does not attack a child or taunt a child, like, “Ooh, you’re getting really close to the fence. Don’t touch the fence. Don’t touch the fence. Don’t touch the fence.” Then, wham, you touch the fence.

Heather 11:13

We don’t allow our boundary or our fence to become a punishment. So as that child gets near, it doesn’t whack the child, right? It’s just there, right being the boundary marking the line.

Kristina 11:24

But my behavior at the pool, where I had erected a fence right? Here’s the boundary for our time here. And then I knocked the fence over. I said, we don’t really need to pay attention to that boundary. You can do it one more time. So when I zoom out and say, “What was I teaching? Was I trying to be a fun mom? Did I maybe think I had erected a fence that wasn’t reasonable, or was I just acquiescing because I like to bring the joy, as opposed to holding the boundary?” That was something that I really needed to learn, because I wasn’t setting my daughter up for success when I would move the fence.

Heather 12:08

Yes, because it’s confusing. And there are times we’ll do it because we make a choice to move the fence. Perhaps maybe it is spontaneity. Maybe it is everybody’s having a better time. Who knows? It could be lots of reasons. But what we need to understand is, when we move the fence or we move the boundary, it is confusing to the child and the child’s brain, because what we have taught them is the boundary moves. And then we have to go back and teach harder that the boundary actually doesn’t move, and the only way that their brain registers that message is through rote repetition and practice. The boundary has to hold. The boundary has to hold a significant amount of times, and finally, the child’s brain will say, “Ah, I’m not gonna get one more time to go down the slide at the pool,” or “I’m not gonna get another cookie,” because we’ve held that boundary enough that their brain registers it and now knows. But if we’re wishy washy, it’s so confusing to the child and their brain, and then they just challenge more, because they know that they can keep at it and that boundary will eventually move.

Kristina 13:35

So this is a tricky thing. It’s a very tricky thing, and I want us to talk about, how can we get better at this.

Heather 13:44

And why it’s so important to get better as parents. What we always say is that feelings of safety and security are paramount for children. They need them to learn. They need them to be able to feel connected to us. And what we know is when they feel safe and secure, it more likely ignites cooperation. So sometimes, as parents, we can think, if we have a lot of boundaries, that we’re not respecting our child’s feelings. Do you think that’s true?

Kristina 14:25

I don’t know that I think that’s true. I think that sometimes we erect so many boundaries that the child just has fences everywhere. And deciding where we are going to build a fence and hold a boundary and where they have more room to roam and experiment is important to not have too many.

Heather 14:49

I think we talk a lot about offering choices, and parents can hear that, and then think everything needs to become a choice, right? It doesn’t. It’s okay to hold fast to certain things. I’m going to go back to our dinner time. You had to ask to be excused. You had to carry your plate to the counter or sink. I think about the pool. When my kids were little, we would go to the same pool. And do you remember that the water slide? There was a point. Do you remember this like it was a zero grade, and they could go in. But there was a point that we would always mark on the concrete, because the swirl of that water slide would suck the little ones in a puddle jumper. Do you remember that? Yes, and I distinctly remember, with both of my younger children marking that line in the concrete and saying, “Here. You may come up to here. You may not go beyond here, because you will get sucked in to that swirl. The force is gonna suck you into that, and then you’re gonna end up at the bottom of that water slide, and the lifeguard is gonna whoop blow their whistle and get you out of there and be mad at me.” But the kids want to be independent. And we wanted to sit somewhat and not always be monitoring when they’re getting sucked into the vortex of the water slide. And I distinctly remember with Luke, having to be eyes on him all the time because he’d look at me and be like, does she see me? Is she watching me? And having to kind of silently without words, just look at him and like, point at that line, like, right there, and he would dance on it. And sometimes he would fly right past that point with a big old smile on his face, like, “Here I go!” I imagine it was kind of fun to get sucked into that he didn’t need to move his body at all, and just the force took him, and I remember like, “Nope.” And then pulling him out and setting him down and being like, you gotta sit out for this amount of time, because that’s the boundary.

Kristina 16:50

And you had said it out loud, “If you move beyond this boundary, you will sit out for a period of time.

Heather 16:57

And I remember one time in particular, because remember every hour there was like a five minute break or something, because they didn’t want everybody peeing in the pool. Everybody had to get out and pee, so they had this five minute break. And he ended up having to be out of the pool because he had to take that time that I had set. But then it was also the five minute break. And he was like, “I lost a really big amount of time in the pool.” And I was like, “You did. You did.” And so to have that conversation of, yeah, that was the consequence. Like, you lost swim time because you made the choice to go beyond and it didn’t take very long of that repetition of doing that. I remember the lifeguard kind of watching it, and they’re like teenagers and thinking, “Whew! I think that gigs a lot of work.” It’s probably a really good lesson for that teenage lifeguard. Watching it like that is a game for people with a lot of energy and stamina, and it is, yeah, because it took a lot to monitor him, not going beyond that point.

Kristina 18:02

I want to point out something about what you just shared, and that is that when Luke made the decision to go beyond the boundary and he had to sit out, you did not say “I told you. You chose to go beyond the boundary. So here you sit. Isn’t that fun, Luke? Maybe you should have listened to me and stayed within the boundary, right?” The fence doesn’t come and attack or taunt.

Heather 18:30

It just holds and it doesn’t question their character. We’re trying to grow and develop it, right?

Kristina 18:35

The beauty of it is that it’s not me against you. It’s not parent against child or caregiver against the one that they are raising. It is both of us saying, “Oh, bummer. It is a bummer, Luke. You did miss a lot of time. Nuts. I’m so sorry that was kind of rotten.

Heather 18:56

In some ways, he would do it, looking right at me. Like, “Yep, here she comes.” It was like he was also testing me, right? Like, is she gonna make me do this? Because if not, I’m just gonna keep on going.

Kristina 19:11

But it’s so easy. You’ve talked about how your kids need to clear their plate, bring it into the kitchen. How easy is it if one of them forgets to do that, runs off to play, and you just think to yourself, I’ll just take it. I mean, it’s no big deal. I’ll take his plate this time. And there are times when we can do that, and there are times that we do that, but we need to understand then what happens. So if you do it, then the child learns it’s not really important.

Heather 19:42

It’s not really that important. Maybe I don’t have to take my – there’s not really that committed to it, right?

Kristina 19:46

As opposed to taking the extra work of saying, “Hey, Grace? Come on back. You forgot your plate.”

Heather 19:52

You maybe don’t remember this. But one thing that we commonly said was, “First things first.” Yep. “Hey, first things first. Come and take a look at what needs to be done before you head out the door.” Oh, yep, yeah, I gotta get my plate.

Kristina 20:06

Yep. And in that way, when we hold a boundary, when we keep it consistent, when we are on the same side as our child with empathy and with understanding, and they experience that repeatedly, they begin to learn, yes, it doesn’t do me any good to kick that fence. It’s not moving. One of the easiest ways to extinguish a behavior is to respond to it absolutely consistently. The fastest way to ingrain a behavior is to respond to it inconsistently. Because if a child knows if I come into my parents bedroom or my mom’s bedroom or my dad’s bedroom in the night, and I want to sleep with them, if sometimes they’ll say yes, then I know that I can come in for another thousand days, and at some point they’re going to say yes again. I don’t know when, but I know it happened once, so it can happen again. So when we do move our fences intentionally, speaking of nighttime, this was one for my daughter that we had to figure out. I’ve said before, my husband traveled a lot with work, so when he was out of town, my daughter, who struggles with being anxious, she could sleep with me. Now some people are going to say, “Oh, boy, that is trouble.” For us, it worked. And it was something I could say out loud “When daddy’s gone, you may sleep with me in our bed.” And so on those nights, it wasn’t that I was responding to her request in the moment, that was pushing a boundary or kicking a fence. I could proactively say, “Here’s a new fence.” That’s important. So I’m going to go back to the pool. We were members at the same fitness club, which had an outdoor pool. At the outdoor pool, it also had a little concession stand. So one of our, one of my, you know, boundaries, was that we didn’t buy food from the concession stand, because I knew we would be buying food every day for the rest of forever when we went to the pool, so we were not going to do it. So every time Grace asked, “Can we please do it? Can we please, please, please, please, please, please, just this one. Just this once?” I would say, “Nope, not this time.” Now, I later found out that, like you can get a grilled cheese sandwich for next to nothing, and those little ice cream cones are fantastic, and they were also next to nothing. So I thought, “Hmm, it’s actually not such a bad idea to get lunch here every once in a while.” So I would say to Grace proactively, “Hey, when we head to the pool today, we’re going to be able to order some food from the little area there, and we can eat lunch at the pool.” So it wasn’t in a response to her, asking, begging, trying to push the fence. It was something you put in place ahead of time. And that’s a huge difference. Children learn not by what we say. So much more than by what they experience. So if the experience is that boundary holds, that fence holds, then again, they learn kicking it doesn’t help anything.

Heather 23:29

And it can get real tricky when everybody else is buying food, and your rule is, we’re not gonna get food. And sometimes, as parents, we don’t want to, I think, deprive our child of that, whatever that that food brings, because we brought snacks. It’s not that they’re not gonna get fed, right? But it’s the excitement, or, I don’t know-

Kristina 23:59

And the snacks we brought don’t look nearly as good once you see what the others are having, right?

Heather 24:04

And so we can join in that empathy. But we also say, “Empathy without boundaries always equals chaos.” And that is a really important thing to remember. And the distinguishing point that you made is that you can change. You don’t have to lock yourself into something forever. It’s that in the moment, once you’ve set a boundary, you don’t want to move your fence in front of that child because they’re begging, because everybody else is doing it right. Because that’s never a message we want to send our kids. We don’t want to send the message that, well, we’re just going to do this because everybody else is. At least, I never wanted to send that message. But you set it up on the front end so that it could be something that felt special and felt together. I really like that. It felt like we’re going to do this. This is going to be fun for us. Set it up ahead of time so it wasn’t in response to whining, begging, pleading, gnashing of teeth, a tantrum. Yep, none of those things, right? It was established ahead of time, and establishing those boundaries allows everyone to be on the same page and have a really clear understanding and a much more enjoyable experience.

Kristina 25:35

So tech time was another tricky one for me. If I was busy doing something. During all of COVID, I worked from home. I was still working full time. I was at home. My daughter was at home. So that got dicey, right? So she would have tech time, and we had a boundary on that tech time. But man, oh man, if I was in a conference call and she came up and her time was done, it was so easy for me to say, “Yeah, you can have another half an hour.” Because I still had work to do. I was in the middle of it, right? And being able to respond to her while still working put me in a really tricky situation. Sometimes it’s not work, sometimes it’s just I’m in the middle of getting dinner ready, or whatever it might be. And so I would say, “Yeah, you can have a little bit more time.” You put the limits on their tech where, you know, it turns off in 30 minutes, and then you put the code back in and give them another 30. That set me up for a child that would consistently ask for more and then have big fits when she couldn’t get it, because sometimes she did and she didn’t understand what the difference was.

Heather 26:40

Well, why do I get it sometimes, and then other times you’re just so frustrated and shout “no” or say “no” or say “you know you’ve reached your limit.”

Kristina 26:52

So I was not setting her up for success. Or for me, it certainly wasn’t setting us up to have a smoother journey, a more joyful hike. We were kind of engaged in that back and forth, the tug of war, the “Am I going to topple the fence today, or am I not going to topple the fence today?” So there are times like that when, again, I like to zoom out a lot and think about the boundary we’ve established. Is it reasonable? Is it developmentally appropriate? How am I equipping my child to be successful in meeting that expectation? Do they have the skill to meet the expectation? Because sometimes we set a boundary that they don’t have the skill for and then we can’t expect a child to meet an expectation when they don’t have the skill for it yet.

Heather 27:40

So let’s talk about how we determine boundaries. You said a couple of things right there, that we want to carefully select them for what we’re trying to teach, that we want it to be developmentally appropriate. But let’s look at what boundaries for the really young child look like. Because really it’s only a few things, and it really is to protect them from physical harm when they’re really little. We want our boundaries to keep them safe. That’s primary importance. Keep the young child safe. We want them to protect property like we’re not going to write on the walls, even though sometimes children do, and then we have to figure that out and what the consequences for that, but teaching again, how do we protect our property? And then the other one is often to protect the child and other children emotionally. So we want to make sure our child feels emotionally safe and that they’re not doing anything to make other people or children feel emotionally unsafe, and that kind of goes back to the pool. Like we’re keeping those, a young child you’re not going beyond this point, because I don’t want you to get sucked into that. You can’t go beyond this point in the yard because you’ll be too close to the road. You know, you must wear your helmet when you ride your scooter. All of those are safety things.

Kristina 29:04

But what do you do? Because welcome to our homes, right? With siblings. When one sibling is whacking and wailing on the other sibling, what do you do for us? One of our foundations is that you are safe in this home. You are safe in this family. Safe, physically. Safe, emotionally. Your property is safe and that’s something that we as the adults are responsible for ensuring and teaching. Yes, it’s your job as the children to help us do that. But if something occurs that is unsafe in the family, whether with words or with physical harm or with property damage, what do we do?

Heather 29:44

So a commonly occurring thing: There are two children. One of them took something from someone else, or somebody wanted to turn and didn’t get it. They both want the same thing, and it ends up being chucked at the other person, and it connects. I remember a specific time that this happened with our girls. This happened at my house in the basement, where the kind of toy room was, and I think it was like a doctor’s kit.

Kristina 30:10

Doc McStuffins, I bet probably,

Heather 30:12

And it was the otoscope that probably they both wanted. One of them had it. I’m not sure what happened. Ava ended up chucking it at Grace, and it made contact and hit her. And Grace said, “Ow, Ava.” And so I went over there, and then I think she began to cry. And I very intentionally physically turned my back to the perpetrator. So whoever has perpetrated the violent act, or made the poor decision, I just put my back to them physically, because I don’t want to make eye contact. I don’t want to give them any attention or input for that behavior, because we want to extinguish it all, right?

Kristina 30:54

So when you go in Grace is crying. You have ascertained that Ava threw something and make contact, and you go in and you said you turned your back to Ava. Why do you do that? What are you doing in turning your back toward the perpetrator, in this case, Ava and focusing on the victim, in this case, Grace?

Heather 31:16

It’s very intentional. Even though Ava’s my child, right? She’s behaved poorly. She’s done something that I don’t like. She’s not keeping the place safe. She is just low level assaulted a friend. So I’m gonna go in and I’m gonna keep my back to her intentionally, because I don’t wanna give that any energy. I don’t wanna give her any attention for that negative behavior, because I don’t want to see more of it, right? What I want to teach in that moment is, “You just caused harm to a friend.” So I go to Grace, your daughter, and I scoop her up, and I say, “That seems like it hurt. That was not kind.” And of course, Ava’s watching this entire exchange, like, “Oh, this apparently wasn’t a popular choice, right?”

Kristina 32:05

Yeah, and so you said to Grace, “Something happe”ned.

Heather 32:08

“Tell me what happened.”

Kristina 32:

“Ava threw that at me, and it really hurt.”

Heather 32:16

“Yes, see that. It hurt. Hit me right here. Did you like it? No. Why didn’t you like it? I didn’t like it because it hurt. Tell her, look at Ava’s eyes.

Kristina 32:29

I didn’t like it when you did that. It hurt, Ava.

Heather 32:31

Do you hear what Grace said? Yes. Say it back to her. “She didn’t like it because it hurt when I threw that.” Right. Grace, tell her what to do next time.

Kristina 32:43

Next time if you want it, just ask me if you can have it. Or if it’s my turn to have it, just bring it to me. But it hurt when you threw it at me.

Heather 32:55

Ava, did you hear what Grace said? Yes. She said that next time to bring it to her. Don’t throw it at her when it’s her turn. But I wasn’t done with it, Mom, I wanted it longer. I hear you. You were frustrated. Next time say, “I’m frustrated.” Don’t throw it at Grace.

Kristina 33:13

And that right there is teaching children skills, right? Skills to be able to respond when something doesn’t feel good to them, how to communicate that, how to share what you would like to have happen instead.

Heather 33:31

We aren’t done yet. I mean, I would say, “Ava, come over, pick this up, go back, try it again, and have a do over.” And then you do it the correct way? Yeah, you did it. There’s no ill will towards either one of them. No, they’re children that are learning, right?

Kristina 33:48

It just presents an opportunity to teach.

Heather 33:53

To teach. Yep. Absolutely. They don’t have the skills. And if we can look at it, remove all of our stuff as parents that we tend to like, “Oh, people saw that. They think I’m a bad parent.” No, it’s just children being children learning skills within the skill set that they already have, right?

Kristina 34:16

And people will think a lot of things, and we can’t control. If we focus on trying to control that, then we’ve lost sight of what we’re doing. We’re more concerned about our reputation as parents and our children behaving in a way that secures our sense of “we’re good parents” and childhood is messy. They will make mistakes.

Heather 34:39

We will make mistakes. And they will make mistakes within our homes and within our friend groups with children that we know and love, they will do those things. But if we can all approach it with “what can we teach? How can we grow?” and focus on that? It is a much more joyful journey. And we can all support one another.

Kristina 35:01

Now I don’t intend to make this sound like it’s easy. There are some children who, mine was one of them, who have real difficulty controlling their impulses. They’re lacking or have a very short pause between input and reaction. And so sometimes the task is helping a child build their pause. And we’ll talk about that in an upcoming episode about let’s just give them a nibble, though. Let’s give them a little nibble. What is the most common question that we ask a child when we’re trying to teach the pause?

Heather 35:37

The thing that I always try to teach teachers or parents, is to say to the child, “What’s your plan?” Because what that question does is it forces a pause, and the child thinks, “What is my plan?” They maybe didn’t have a plan. When a stick goes in the air, when the rule is sticks stay to the ground, I could say simply, “Sticks stay to the ground,” – but there’s a plan that child has that stick in the air for a reason. So it’s much more effective to say, “What’s your plan with the stick?” I’m really mad. I’m going to- “Oh, you’re really angry? Put the stick to the ground. I’m here to help.” Yep, you don’t want them brandishing the stick, and it’s going to crack over a head, or it’s going to slam into something or fly through the air and potentially harm somebody. But for really impulsive kids, where there’s that impulse-action, impulse-action, and we need to teach the pause, the thing to get them doing frequently until it becomes their new habit, even when you don’t ask, “What’s my plan?” So just saying to them, “What’s your plan? What’s your plan? How are we going to get from the door at Target to our car? What’s your plan?” And it might be your plan and you’ve given some direction, and they had choice within it: “Are you going to hold my hand? Are you going to sit in the cart basket? What’s your plan?” It gives them choice. It also gives them a sense of being in charge, which they want to be in charge of themselves to a certain degree, within our confines and our fence and so on. But “What’s your plan?” Is a great way to teach them how to pause and think things through, and then it just becomes a habit when we ask it frequently enough.

Kristina 37:44

We often, like you had mentioned earlier, do not see the entirety of an interaction between children before somebody’s hurt.

Heather 37:54

Almost never, right, do we see the entire interaction.

Kristina 37:58

So, in moving into those spaces when something has happened, to get down on their level and saying, “Something happened. I’m here to help.”

Heather 38:07

Oftentime with children, we don’t know who did what. But the one who instigated an act that is probably breaking the rules or is going to seem unkind, will take off and run. And oftentimes those children know they’ve done something wrong, and they know there’s going to be a consequence or and maybe at home, it’s a punishment, I don’t know. They’re afraid they’re in trouble. They’re afraid they’re in trouble. And so they peel out of there. And so getting low immediately says to them, “I am friend.” And then verbalizing, “I’m here to help. Something has happened. I’m here to help you. Let me know when you’re ready.”

Kristina 38:54

Because too often we charge in and see the child who’s injured and then look to the person injured, and we think we know what happened.

Heather 39:04

And really to let the injurer be because they need a minute to compose themselves, and they’re not ready, because they know, typically that they’re in trouble. But there’s real power in going to that victim and letting everybody see when someone’s harmed, we go to them first.

Kristina 39:22

And like we’ve talked about in discipline: our end game is not that now you perpetrator, child, you’re in trouble. It is much more about saying “So how can we have a fix? How can we have a do over? What can we do differently because we’re teaching skills.”

Heather 39:40

And how can we check in on whomever we’ve harmed, and how can we make that right?

Kristina 39:44

Yes, because that’s part of life, right? We make decisions throughout our lifetime that unintentionally or intentionally cause harm, and what are we going to do with that? Simply saying, “I’m sorry” doesn’t fix the harm. Doesn’t heal the broken.

Heather 40:03

It doesn’t teach a skill. It doesn’t teach, in fact, it erodes the words “I’m sorry,” and reduces them to empty words, I would say, because children don’t even understand that process. Like the little ones that we’re working with, and they get into this habit then of just doing kind of crappy things and be like, “sorry, sorry, yeah, sorry,” and thinking it’s okay, and we never grow the skill, right?

Kristina 40:29

So one of the other things, again, we work a lot with preschoolers at this point in our careers, and it could be that, like you had said, a child does something that causes harm, and that could even be, “I don’t want to play with you.” Words that feel unsafe to a child or hurt a child’s feelings, while the child who says it may not be ready to have that conversation. And so I’ll say to the child, “So I know you’re really upset about that. That really hurt. You know, child B is not ready yet to talk about that. So you have a choice: You can wait for that child to be ready, and you can stay here and be sad. I mean, that’s absolutely an option. Or you can go and play while we’re waiting for a child B to be ready.” We need to make sure that we come back around and close that circle, that there actually is that connection point. But sometimes, again, depending on what a child has experienced, how much shame they’ve been exposed to, what being in trouble looks like, they may not be ready to come back and have that conversation right away, or vice versa. The one who’s been harmed may not be ready to have the conversation with the person who harmed them. And so being able to give that space, and that’s a beautiful way to teach consent.

Heather 41:48

“May I talk to you?” No, oh, they’re not ready. It’s going to take a few more minutes, and that is really the definition of a natural consequence. Something happened. That child now needs some space and time and distance from it. And another childs need to either feel better about it or have maybe us as the parent, because we want to remedy it or solve it, doesn’t get to over impose on the other child’s speed at which they’re ready to receive the other part of that. It goes back to not everything is a teachable moment. You can circle back later. I think that’s something that we forget as parents, that we have more time we don’t have to immediately deal with those things. We can circle back at another time and have a really powerful conversation about something that will go much better when we have some distance, all of us from whatever transpired, right? Getting back to our thinking brain. Yes, so we talked about little little people, and having the boundaries be safety based and emotional safety and all of that. But as our kids are older, over time, we’ve had to change our boundaries and our expectations within our home as our kids have grown, they’ve become more capable. They’ve matured. And then that’s really where we move into that sweet spot of our boundaries can really teach our values and really grow them into the people that we would love to see them be. They’re going to be who they’re going to be, but as parents, we can help shape that. And that’s the power of nurture. There’s that whole nature piece they come into the world who they are, right? But as parents, we’re the nurture we get to help grow them into who they’re going to be. And boundaries is a great way to do that.

Kristina 44:06

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina

Heather 44:12

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

Kristina 44:17

Until next time-

Heather and Kristina 44:18

See you on the trails!

Kristina 44:20

Heather 44:34

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Kristina 44:42

Since 2000 the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands-on, outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

Heather 44:55

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 6: Being The Detective / Chasing The “Why,” Part 2 of 2

In this episode Kristina and Heather continue their conversation about being the detectives in our homes. They discuss strategies for understanding and managing children’s behaviors, particularly around food and screen time. They emphasize the importance of connection during family meals, suggesting a balance between parental control and allowing children to listen to their bodies. They share their experiences with their own children around specific food preferences. They also highlight the impact of screen time on brain chemistry, recommending 15-minute limits to avoid dopamine overload. The conversation underscores the many benefits of outdoor activities for regulating the central nervous system and fostering healthy family dynamics.

FOOD AND MEALTIMES

“The key is to shift the dynamic from a power struggle over food to a nurturing time of bonding and nourishment – for both the body and the spirit. By removing the fight, you create space for meaningful connection.”

Heather and Kristina’s suggestions for creating a peaceful and nourishing mealtime experience focused on connection and allowing children to listen to their bodies:

– Provide a variety of healthy options and let your children choose what and how much they want to eat. Avoid power struggles over finishing everything on their plate.

– Make the mealtime about connection, conversation, and gratitude rather than just the food. Ask questions, share about your days, and express appreciation.

– Set up an “approved snack shelf” that your children can access freely throughout the day. This gives them autonomy while ensuring they have healthy options.

– Allow your children to ask to be excused when they feel done, rather than forcing them to sit until everyone is finished. This gives them a sense of control.

– Avoid distractions like screens during mealtimes. Keep the focus on being present with each other.

“We want to empower our children to listen to their internal cues of hunger and fullness, rather than relying on external rules or pressure.”

– When children indicate they are done eating, validate their feelings and avoid pressuring them to finish everything on their plate. Say something like “Okay, it sounds like your body is feeling satisfied. You can be excused when you’re ready.”

– Avoid labeling foods as “good” or “bad.” Instead, talk about “strong foods” and “weak foods” to encourage a balanced perspective.

– Make mealtimes about connection, not just consumption. Engage in conversation, share gratitude, and focus on the time shared together,

– If a child doesn’t want to eat what’s served, offer the “snack shelf” options rather than becoming a short-order cook. Maintain the boundaries you’ve set while remaining flexible.

SCREEN TIME & SCHEDULE OVERLOAD

Heather and Kristina discuss the impact of dopamine spikes on all of us, especially kiddos. They talk about implementing a 15-minute screen time limit, with breaks in between, to avoid those dopamine spikes and the tricky behaviors that arrive with them.

They remind us to check in on the family’s overall schedule, attachment, sleep, and nutrition to address any imbalances that may be contributing to behavioral challenges.

OUTDOOR TIME

“It’s important to get back to those basics and say: What is attachment like? How are we sleeping? How’s the appetite? What is being eaten? What kinds of fluids are we taking in? How much time are we outside? We know as parents that spending time outside is good for children’s physical health, their emotional health.

Being outside is a natural regulator. It is for both child and adult.”

Heather and Kristina discuss how crucial outdoor time and physical activity are for helping regulate children’s (and our own) central nervous systems.

A few of Heather and Kristina’s favorite ways of incorporating more outdoor time and nature-based activities into our daily routine, which we know is so crucial for our kiddos and supports the well-being of the entire family:

– Start the day with a brief outdoor activity, like a family walk around the block or a few minutes of stretching in the yard. This can help regulate our whole family’s central nervous systems.

– Plan a picnic lunch or snack time outdoors, whether in your backyard, a local park, or even just on the front steps. Eating in nature can be very calming.

– Incorporate nature exploration into your regular activities. For example, go on a nature scavenger hunt during your neighborhood walk, or observe the birds and insects in your yard or at the park.

– Set up an outdoor play area with simple toys like bubbles, sidewalk chalk, or a small sandbox. Encourage free, unstructured play time outside.

– Take advantage of local parks, nature centers like ODC’s Outdoor Discovery Center, or hiking trails on the weekends for longer outdoor adventures as a family.

Episode 6: Being The Detective / Chasing The “Why,” Part 2 of 2

Kristina 00:00

In this episode, we’re continuing our detective work in understanding those tricky behaviors in our kids.

Heather 00:06

We’ll share some of the strategies we use to search for clues so we can keep ourselves steady and support our kids in those challenging moments.

Kristina 00:14

We’ll go further into this idea of chasing the “why” to understand unexpected behaviors, specifically when it comes to food and screen time.

Heather 00:23

We’ll return again to why connection is so vital, especially at key moments like around meal times or transition times in our homes.

Kristina 00:31

And speaking of connection, we’ll talk a bit more about screen time and how it affects all of us, especially children.

Heather 00:38

We’ll share some things that might help you create healthy boundaries around screens. And we’ll talk about the power of the great outdoors and how getting outside really regulates our kids’ central nervous systems and ours as well.

Kristina 00:52

Fresh air and a bit of nature can really do wonders for all of us. We’ll wrap up by talking about how challenging it can be when these basics are out of balance.

Heather 01:03

So let’s get out there, keep exploring and continue being the detective for our kids. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood!

Kristina 01:13

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boersma.

Heather 01:27

Kristina 01:49

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting. Are

Heather 01:55

Are you ready?

Heather and Kristina 01:55

Let’s hit the trails!

Heather 02:02

Kristina 02:14

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature-based initiatives.

Heather 02:22

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact. So let’s talk about food for a bit. It’s one of our basics that we say to go back to, and food is a thing in a lot of families, and it means a lot of different things in a lot of families. Absolutely does. And I think it can be really easy to mislead ourselves as parents on how much food our children need, and what we like to say in our parenting class is, if you look at your child and they make a fist that’s the size of their stomach. And it can get full pretty quickly. It doesn’t take a whole lot to fill that stomach up. Right now, they’re growing. Their brain is developing, and so we want them to eat frequently. My daughter was a grazer. I remember this, and it made me a little crazy. It’s not something that I particularly love to do is graze, but it was who she was. It seemed like who she was wired to be. She would eat very healthy things. She loved vegetables. She loved fruits. This was a really hard thing for my husband. I was home. We had family meals. I’ve said before that was important to us. So I would prepare dinner, and he wanted all of the children to eat what was prepared. And I can appreciate that. He felt like that honored me. And what I wanted, after having been with the children all day, was a happy meal, not from McDonald’s, in my home. I wanted to have a happy meal time focused on connection, not necessarily on food.

Kristina 04:15

You wanted the fellowship of the family around the table.

Heather 04:18

Fellowship. I wanted it not to be this fight. I just wanted a peaceful dinner time, right? Because I was, you know, through the witching hour, as I like to call it, which I think oftentimes happens just before dinner. And I just wanted peace and calm and fellowship. I wanted to talk about our gratitude moment.

Kristina 04:38

You wanted nourishment and kind of at the deepest sense, mind and body.

Heather 04:42

Yes, mind and body nourishment. And so for sweet little Ava, who I wasn’t ever sure she was going to be a meat eater, and I think that’s a texture thing, maybe for her, I don’t know, to be honest. And I was like, “I’m really not gonna chase the why on that, because I got 99 problems.”

Kristina 05:08

You don’t eat meat. I can live with that, like whatever.

Heather 05:11

I wasn’t gonna get hung up on that detail, which is hilarious, because my husband? Meat at every meal is what my husband

Kristina

Yeah, meat and potatoes.

Heather

That’s who he is, and so that’s what he likes. And Ava was not into that, so I just created a shelf in our refrigerator that had the little sweet containers that she could open on her own, and it had things like baby carrots that were washed and grapes that were clean, and blueberries and hummus and celery sticks and yogurt and cheese sticks, she ate all of that. It could just be a shelf that the children could have access to in my home. I always wanted them to ask if they could have a snack, because I wanted to be aware of when they were eating. But that was their shelf that they could go to if the answer was “Yes, go and get something out of that shelf.” It was also the shelf that at dinner time, if, for whatever reason, you didn’t want the crispy chicken, or you didn’t want to be eating the pot roast or whatever we might be having, she could go. And I was fine with that. This took some conversations between my husband and I, because he was much more “Your mother made this. You eat what’s on the table.” And again, I just wanted nourishment, mind and body and peace. So I was like, “Can we just try this and see?” And he was like, “Yeah. I mean, if that’s okay with you.” And I was like, “It’s okay with me. It’s fine.” And so she went and would do her little thing. And by golly, if you take the fight out of it, it’s so powerful, because she would tug, and she had nothing to tug against, right? She’d just go do her own thing. Get her little grapes, get her hummus and her carrots and her celery. I’m looking at her plate going, “it looks healthier than mine. Quite honestly, I don’t have hard boiled eggs.” Like she’s got protein. She’s got vegetables. I’m all good. And she was happy. And there was no fight.

Kristina 07:15

You said something that was so key, and that is removing the power struggle about food, and this is a very common thing that we do. And it comes from a place of love. It can also come from a place of desiring to control that’s not nearly as healthy as a place of love and wanting to ensure that your child has enough food that they’re able to get what their body needs in order to function well.

Heather 07:45

And, in my family, my extended family, my grandmother was an amazing cook, and to her food was love. She loved you through food. And so we have some of these kind of things that we attach to food, right? And as much as I love my grandmother, and it was so great when I was growing up that she like loved through food, because I love to eat. But I also noticed that there was a component to that that I didn’t want to pass on. I wanted my kids to understand strong foods and weak foods, and your fist is the size of your stomach, and so you are check in with your body. I wanted them to listen to their body and not be trying to fill themselves with love through food.

Kristina 08:35

Yes, and we often say that we, as the grown ups, are in charge of what comes into our home, regarding food and what we put on the table or make accessible for the children and the rest of the family. We are not in charge of what they actually put in their mouth, right? I know what’s on the plate. I am not in charge of what is consumed because we don’t ever want to inadvertently send the message that I know you are hungry. I know you’re not hungry. I know that you like that. I know that you don’t like that. I know that that tastes fine. I know that that tastes different. My daughter has a very keen sense of smell and taste. They go together, and so I might have made something the exact same way I always make it, and it tastes exactly the same to me, but to her, it tastes different. And it can be tempting to say, “It doesn’t taste different. It’s the same as it always is.” Well, it does taste different to her. And so instead of telling her how something tastes to her, I can say, “Huh, that’s interesting. It tastes the same to me, but there must be something just a little bit different.” Right? Allow for the possibility that what she’s experiencing is what she’s experiencing. If we don’t do that, we run the risk of these children growing never really being able to trust themselves with what their body needs, what their body is experiencing, because they’ve been told over and over and over that that wasn’t so- “You’re not hungry. You just ate, right?” That’s like, well, maybe they are hungry. “You didn’t eat enough at dinner, so there’s no snack.” Well, sometimes we’re just not as hungry at a particular time. We don’t eat as much, and then we are hungry later. And not that it has to be a free for all with food. I know people are like, “I’m not a short order cook. I’m not, you know, in the kitchen all day long,” things like that. I don’t want to be in the kitchen all day long either. But to take the power struggle out of food and to let that time together be about nourishment, be about fellowship, be about connecting with each other, experiencing that joy, expressing that gratitude, being able to celebrate each other and what’s happened in the day during those meal times is a really powerful time within a family for attachment, for belonging, saying we are in this together. We are not here to fight. And children do this because they have to. They’ll throw out like a rope and beg you. Beg you pick it up to do tug of war with them. And if you pick up the other end of the rope and say, “No, you are eating that. No, you will have three more bites” and take a tug on that rope, what happens?

Heather 11:41

They tug back.

Kristina 11:42

They do. And now you’re stuck. Because once you’re in the midst of a tug of war and a power struggle with your child, it is very difficult to lay down your end and to still be able to move forward being in charge, right? That takes a special kind of nuanced dance.

Heather 12:00

And the one most committed to the cause has the least amount of power.

Kristina

Say that again.

Heather

The one most committed to the outcome has the least amount of power.

Kristina 12:09

Preach it sister. It’s so true.

Heather 12:13

It’s so true. And we get real passionate about these things, and sometimes we don’t even know why. mM boys, when Ava was in this, she was just figuring out who she was and what she liked to eat. And they would be like, “Are you a vegetarian?” And I’m like, “Who cares? Right? That means more meat for you, if she is, right?” I mean, it doesn’t matter, right? Like, she’s gonna figure out who she is, and that’s fine, whatever it turns out to be, but let’s just keep the peace at the table, and let’s make it about connection, and let’s be grateful that we have this food and that we can all eat what we want to eat and fill our bellies and then move on.

Kristina 12:50

I loved what you did with that shelf of foods that were approved by you, right? You’d bought them, you’d brought them into your home. You made them accessible for your children. You set an expectation of “this is the shelf where, if you ask me to have something to eat, and I say, yes, you may go to that shelf.” You did all of that, which kept you from, “Um, Mom? Can I have grilled cheese? Mom, I want a hot dog.”

Heather 13:19

It was a boundary. Yes, it was an option, but it was also a built-in boundary. If you don’t like it, I don’t need to know about it, you go to the shelf, right? Serve yourself. Right? Wasn’t more work for me. They had access to it.

Kristina 13:32

So, because I don’t want any of us to feel like you need to give your child exactly what they want to eat when they want to eat it, and fall into that game. We make nutritious food that we feel good about accessible to our family.

Heather 13:46

And, you know, I always say it’s so much better to be proactive than reactive. That was a compromise my husband and I could make because we differed in our philosophies on this dinner time component, but that was something that he and I could talk through and compromise on and it felt like it was reasonable to him. It felt reasonable to me, and then it just allowed us to be proactive. So that it wasn’t becoming a short order cook. “I don’t like this. What can I have instead? The shelf right?” You can have the shelf right. Go see what’s there.

Kristina 14:18

And it also eliminated the child sitting at the table until bedtime, looking at that plate of food, thinking, “I don’t want one more bite of chicken. I don’t want one more bite of broccoli. I’m full.”

Heather 14:31

And sometimes it works to our benefit, because guess what? Then I could have lunch tomorrow leftover. I didn’t have to go to the shelf. I could have the leftover chicken and broccoli.

Kristina 14:41

Yep. Absolutely! But that’s another example of that power struggle, right? Like that is your dinner. You will eat it all. Clean plate club. Eat it all before you’re able to be excused. And that, again, is saying “I know better what your body needs in this moment.” So you can know better what nutrition they need, but not the volume of food that they consume, right? So they need to make that decision. You didn’t finish your milk. Drink the rest of your milk. Maybe they’re done drinking milk. Maybe we need to work, and this is what we needed to work on in our house – how much food you took, how much milk you poured and so not in any shaming way, but to say, “Huh. So sometimes our eyes are bigger than our bellies, and that looked really good, and you took a big, old huge heap of that. And then you listen to your body, and your body said, I’m done eating that. Now I’m satisfied.” Not even “I’m full,” right? Because I think especially in our country, we get used to this feeling of like, “Oh, I’m so full. Oh, I’m so stuffed.” That’s not actually a great feeling. It doesn’t feel good. I don’t know that it’s necessarily good for us. So we would say, when Grace was done eating, say, just take a minute, take a breath, check in with your body. Are you feeling satisfied? Are you a little bit hungry, yet you’re feeling satisfied? Wonderful. I’m so glad. And she may come back later and need something more to eat. And then there’s a different conversation that happens then. But that checking in, are you satisfied? Is a shift from, are you full? Eat a little more. You don’t know. The next time you’re going to eat, it’s going to be a long time before dinner. Eat a little more. Stepping away from that and moving into really empowering your child to listen to their own body for what they need.

Heather 16:37

Another thing we did in our home was our children had asked to be excused from the dinner table, which maybe sounds really old school, but again, my husband and I had differing views, and he wanted them there, partly, maybe to just be there for the sake of almost from an obedience you’re gonna sit there until We’re done. Yes. And with my child development, I felt like there’s a reasonable ask for children developmentally to be at the dinner table, and then there’s a tipping point to where it’s going to become a tug, and it’s going to turn into more like dog training, yes or obedience training, right? And so again, that was a whole other conversation that we had to have. And the compromise was, how about we let them maybe have some power and voice, and when they feel like they’re done, and then they ask us, may I be excused, which seemed really polite, yes. And so my husband was like, I can get behind that. I think that’s a good way to go. And then we get to decide, you know, we didn’t want them inhaling their food, to just get back outside and play, because maybe the neighbors wanted to play or whatever. And so we always said friends have to go home during dinner hour. They can’t be waiting outside the door, because that’s going to promote them inhaling their food, but they would sit for a bit. We’d have our gratitude, we’d have our food. And then when they were real little, they don’t have a lot of sit. And then beyond that. And so they could ask, may I be excused? Yes, you may be excused. And they had to then take their plate and set it up by the sink, or whatever their routine is, but that was their job.

Kristina 18:22

And in our house, same as asking, “May I be excused? Sometimes, the answer was no, not yet,

Heather 18:30

Because we’re going to dot, dot, right?

Kristina 18:33

But when the meal has moved to a place where it’s just the grown-ups talking, I think, yes, go play. That’s the best thing for your body and your brain. Go play. We’re talking yet, but you can move on to the next activity.

Heather 18:47

Absolutely. I wanna just acknowledge that these basics that we talk about can impact one another, like food, can become attachment and connection time, right? And it depends how you set it all up, your time outside and your scheduled activities can also be double dipping into your connection. Time, absolutely, screen time is one of those things that we have to be really mindful of, adult and child, that it isn’t taking away from our connection.

Kristina 19:32

And that can be tricky, because there are these games, I don’t happen to play them, but my daughter loves to play these games that are interactive, that, you know, she and my husband, you can be doing it together, right? So it’s not like, oh, screens are always bad. There can be this lovely time of connection while you’re engaged in this activity together. And then there’s also the opportunity for it to be a separator.

Heather 20:03

Yeah, that we’re all just in on our screens, that we’re in a space together, but nobody’s really connected or tuned into one another, looking at one another. So that’s the risk. Yes, really.

Kristina 20:14

And it is a slippery slope, that screen time is something that in our lives, I need to stay really mindful of because it’s really easy. I’m old enough that I still really use Facebook. I don’t even use Instagram yet, and I can get to scrolling, and all of a sudden, all this time has gone by, and I think my child was awake. She was in the same room, and I’m not even looking at her. We may be talking about things, but really I’m focused on the screen, so I need to remain mindful of that. I know all this stuff about what happens to your brain when you’re on screens too much. I mean, there are studies coming out all the time. There was one recently that talked about based on the amount of screen time that you have, the more screen time, the less myelination of the neurons in your brain. Holy Moly, the myelination super important because it helps the speed of the communication between the neurons in your brain. That’s really important. Well, the more screens you’re exposed to, the less of that myelination there is. So you’re gonna have slower communication between the neurons in your brain. That’s a big deal. Yeah, right. Know all those things, and yet, oh, those screens are seductive. What is put in front of us. What is put in front of our children is meant to keep us hooked.

Heather 21:44

I remember when we were interviewing for positions last year that we had a teacher, and it was a kindergarten teacher that we were interviewing the school that I work at is on a nature center, and we’re very pro-outdoors and play and all of those things. And she was a traditional school kindergarten teacher, and said, I put paper down in front of the children, and they all could use their crayons or their colored pencil, whatever they liked, and I just asked them to draw something from their summer. And she said, for the first time ever, I had a child take their finger and put it to the paper like they were swiping and had expected something to be drawn and to be produced from their finger on paper like it was a screen. It’s kind of staggering.

Kristina 22:41

It is staggering. I do it. The older I get, the worse my eyesight is. And when the text is so small, and I’ll put my little fingers on it, and I’ll think, I can’t zoom it out with my fingers, can I that’s, that’s actually text in a book or a magazine or a medicine bottle and nuts.

Heather 22:58

I can’t stretch it, I can’t stretch it!

Kristina 23:00

I can’t zoom in on it. So those things are affecting all of us and our culture. And paying attention to what we’re doing on the screens. How rapid the movement is that we’re watching. Are there lights? Are things moving, you know, at triple speed. My husband and I like to bring the old shows back and show our daughter like Mork and Mindy, or, you know, MASH. We don’t let her watch MASH. Well, she’s old enough now that she could watch it, but not in the old days.

Heather 23:36

And all of my kids went through Andy Griffith.

Kristina 23:39

Yes, Andy Griffith. Us too. But those move at a very different pace than a lot of what’s produced currently.

Heather 23:46

Some of them are in black, white. Yes, they sure are. Uh huh. And I think the really important thing to remember as a parent, and I had to remind myself of this all the time, is there is no benefit in a screen. Like always, the greater benefit is a human interaction. And so we can think like, oh, Daniel Tiger is adorable, and it teaches social skills, not better social skills than a human being with a child, a grandparent, a parent, any human interaction is more powerful than a screen interaction, and that was always something that I tried to remind myself of. And again, the days are long, but those years are short, and so it goes back to we’re going to miss this we’re going to want this back. We’re going to wish these days hadn’t gone by so fast. And the reminder of, how am I choosing to spend my days? And for me, that wasn’t a. Much of a thing with screens, but it was a thing with the laundry and the cleaning of the house and those types of things, because I like a clean house, even if there’s DNA in my Lego bins that’s put away. I like things to be clean. I like my house to be orderly. It helps my brain feel decluttered and orderly. But my risk was choosing that over taking the time to stop and be present with my children and screens. The same exact thing can happen. You can choose to get lost in that, or let your kids get lost in that, because it can become an easy babysitter.

Kristina 25:43

It can. And it’s something that we as parents need to decide, for our own family, for ourselves and for our children, what’s going to be our norm with screens in our own home? I don’t want to communicate ever that screens are evil. Screens are bad, right? You know, get them out of here-

Heather 26:01

Because then anything that becomes so much more appealing to the child, then, because anything we put off limits, it’s like, “Oh, why? I want more of that.” Now, all of a sudden, just because you said it’s like the last one on the shelf, I want it. I didn’t even want it ten minutes ago. It’s the last one now I want it, right?

Kristina 26:16

So we need to figure that out, right? As parents, what’s going to work for our family being mindful of what we know about the impact of screens on the developing brain. What we know about the impact of screens in contributing to a sedentary lifestyle, what we know about the impact of screens in the dissolution of connectedness with other people. We know those things, and yet, for my house, with the only child, there is more screen use, certainly, than in yours, but making choices, especially when she was younger, about what she would consume on the screen, doing that as often as we could together so that we could talk about what she was learning if she was watching Wild Kratts. We loved that she learned a ton about nature and all living things through that show. And being able to have conversations about that. But also, I did need to go do the laundry, and she was lovely. She could play on her own, and she also used screens.

Heather 27:21

So it’s about setting your limits. It is what are your boundaries, and then sticking to them.

Kristina 27:26

So one of the things that I think is helpful to know is that, well, first of all, there’s a difference between Facetiming grandma or Zooming with the cousins and being engaged in some of these really, really high energy things that are fast to level up.

Heather 27:43

Yeah, level up, level up, like a dopamine casino. Yes, it is.

Kristina 27:49

And that’s what’s important to be aware of, is that that type of screen usage for young children will always say you’ve got about twenty minutes give or take before in their brain, there’s a dump of something called dopamine, and dopamine is a feel good drug. Man, when we have that dopamine dump, we just want more. We want more. It becomes a really addictive feeling. Dopamine is the same drug that gets dumped in our brains when you gamble or when you’re taking certain drugs or alcohol. Yep, absolutely. So it’s why, when we have our children engaging with screens, there are times when they can give them up without much of a fuss, and other times, when they are like little addicts and you’re trying to take their drugs.

Heather 28:47

That brain wants what that brain wants, and they’ll come out swinging.

Kristina 28:51

They sure will, because we’ve had the dopamine dump. So we encourage parents to really pay attention. Do not dance with the devil and go right up to twenty minutes. If you know twenty minutes is your child’s limit, back it up to eighteen, and then, you know, set an alarm to remind you that that’s when it needs to end and we need to take that screen and have a break before going back to it.

Heather 29:14

Do you remember the family? This was years ago in a parenting class that had said Santa had brought their children iPads?

Kristina 29:23

Yes.

Heather 29:24

And she was like, “Oh, it has changed them.” And it hadn’t been, I think it was still like, January, yeah, it wasn’t long. And so she had to go back and be like, “Santa made a mistake. He didn’t know.”

Kristina 29:41

Yeah, he didn’t know. And I remember. Yes, I do remember that family and mom implemented a fifteen minute rule. You can have fifteen minutes on screens, and then we’re taking a break, which is what we did in my house as well. I made these little magnets that were each worth fifteen minutes, and Grace got the magnets. And she could choose when she was going to use them, but she couldn’t use them back to back, because fifteen minutes was the limit, unless it was Daniel Tiger’s Neighborhood, a show like that, which is just slower and a darling, little educational show. So then she could, you know, use two of them back to back. But otherwise, it’s like, if you’re playing a game, or if you’re engaged in, like we were talking about before, the technology that’s really fast and really engaging and sucks you in and get all levels. She can only do it at fifteen minutes at a time. Because that’s what my kid needed before the dopamine dump. And then she was able to hand it over. I mean, she wasn’t thrilled about it, but it’s like, “Oh, the fifteen minutes is up. Okay.” As opposed to if we went to like twenty-two. Oh, man, that was not gonna go easy. And it might end up with the screen getting chucked across the room. I mean, literally, it’s like a different person after you’ve had that dump of dopamine.

Heather 31:01

And fun fact: since we’re talking about brain chemistry, saying to your child at the fifteen minute mark when they hand it over really well, saying “You were able to do that really well. That’s super helpful.” Yes. And having a little hug and a high five well done, serotonin is released happy chemical. Also going outside, being in the sunshine, running and playing, being in nature, serotonin release is a happy chemical. So there are really good brain chemical releases that can happen. We just want them to be the right kind. And the dopamine is one we need to just be aware of, because it can radically alter the brain wants what the brain wants. It’s not the child’s fault. It’s the child’s brain reacting. Ding, ding.

Kristina 31:49

And unfortunately, sometimes we respond like the child’s choosing it.

Heather 31:53

Like they’re just a prisoner to what’s happening in their brain.

Kristina 31:57

Absolutely. It’s not that they’re choosing to be ugly about it or to have a fit about it. They’re not choosing that. That’s what’s happening within their brain. And that’s when, again, for me, I needed to take a look and say, I didn’t set the alarm. I let it go too long. I was on the phone. I was doing whatever.

Heather 32:19

Because that can happen. It’s like, “Oh, I cleaned one bathroom too many. Yes, and now I’m gonna have to pay for that. Yep. So now we’re all gonna go outside and run that out.”

Kristina 32:29

And instead of punishing the child, being able to view them with compassion, like, “Oh, my lands, yes, you just we do those things as parents.”

Heather 32:37

We all do them. Yes, sometimes it’s like, I know I’m dancing with the devil and I’m just gonna do it a minute because I need to whatever you need to do. And that happens to all of us, but not blaming the child, right? And being like, “, I know the consequence of this action, and now I’m paying it dearly.”

Kristina 33:00

Yes, and I have compassion for you, child, that this is really hard for you to give up. And so I’m here with you in the midst of that, and we can shift to doing something else that’s going to, again, release that serotonin and get us to a better place. And so, like you had said, it’s important to get back to those basics and say, What is attachment like? How are we sleeping? How’s the appetite? What is being eaten? What kinds of fluids are we taking in? How much time are we outside? We know as parents that spending time outside is good for children’s physical health, their emotional health.

Heather 33:43

Being outside is a natural regulator. It is for both child and adult. If you ever think about if you’ve got the little one and they’re fussy and cranky and maybe are at a birthday party and it’s a little over stimulating in the house, because there are lots of people there. What do people do when the weather is nice outside, they take the child and they go outside, and all of a sudden they’re watching the wind move the leaves on the tree, and you’re pointing something out, and that child quiets, and that adult calms. Nature has a beautiful way of just resting the central nervous system and aligning your breath with maybe the wind or the bird song or the tree frogs, it ignites our senses, which calms our central nervous system. So that’s a wonderful thing to do. Have children play outside. I’ll say that to teachers in the classroom, when children are maybe struggling like go back outside, everything will calm, and they do we spend a lot of time outside for that very reason.

Kristina 34:51

Oh yeah. And teachers will say that child’s a different child outside than they are when we are on beyond days-

Heather 34:56

When the whole day is. Outside of the fence, in the beyond-

Kristina 35:02

In the forest. Yes, yep, they’re magical times.

Heather 35:07

So when we see behavioral shifts, we spend time focusing on those basics, looking at how’s our attachment and connection with our child? How much one on one, how much individual time are we spending with them. What is our schedule like? What’s the rhythm of our day? Are we over scheduled? Are we under scheduled? Do we have enough time outside? Are we being physically active? How much screen time is everyone getting,

Kristina 35:35

And how much sleep is the household getting?

Heather 35:38

and what are we putting in our bodies? And we can think that you go through them as a checklist, and it’s like, “Oh, check. Did that. Check. Did that.” But really, when you look at, are we over scheduled impacts, maybe, how much time you’re just getting in play outside, right? Or what you’re eating because how much you’re sleeping, yeah, are you eating in the van on the run because you’re in a hurry to get to your next thing, and does that impact then your sleep as well?

Kristina 36:08

So we can talk about these basics in isolation, but truly they’re all woven together.

Heather 36:15

Yes, because our screen time also can very much impact our rest time, or our sleep time and our activity level.

Kristina 36:21

I often wished that some of – my husband’s a big Star Trek fan, and they have those little like readers that you can just scan a body and it’ll tell you exactly what it is. Right? Our children don’t have those, but getting back to those basics and exploring and looking for clues within the basics is a great place to start. Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina-

Heather 36:50

And I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

Kristina 36:56

Until next time: see you on the trails! The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

Heather 37:13

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Kristina 37:20

Heather 37:33

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature to learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCnetwork.org.

Episode 5: Being The Detective / Chasing The “Why,” Part 1 of 2

Clinical social workers Heather and Kristina discuss the concept of “being the detective” in understanding behavior changes in children. They emphasize the importance of considering basic clues such as diet, sleep, screen time, physical activity, and attachment. They highlight how life changes like moving homes or the arrival of a new sibling can impact children’s behavior. The conversation underscores the need for empathy, patience, and a support system. They stress the significance of not jumping to conclusions and instead considering why behavioral changes make sense. Examples include things like allergies, ear infections, and family dynamics that might not be the obvious reason behind a sudden shift in a child’s behavior. They also advocate for maintaining routines and the importance of seeking professional help when needed.

“We’re like this ping pong going back and forth, and instead of really taking a breath and searching for the “why, “ we’re just reacting…many times out of a place of fear.”

Challenges of Parenting and Reacting to Behavior Changes

Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges of parenting and the tendency to react out of fear in the face of sudden behavior shifts in our kids.
Kristina shares her experience of reacting to her child’s behavior without understanding the underlying causes.
Heather and Kristina talk about the impact of parental behavior on children’s behavior and the importance of not pathologizing things too quickly.
The conversation touches on the role of internet searches in exacerbating parental anxiety and the importance of taking a breath and searching for the “why” behind these sudden behavior changes.

Kristina:

“So when we talk about why it’s important to talk about this, it is because it happens to everybody. It’s because we worry about things like crazy as parents raising children in this world, and many times we fall into this place of it being really important to us that others view us as parents and our children as having it all together, right?…So that pressure to appear like we’ve got it all together, when maybe we don’t.”

Heather:

“None of us do.”

The Importance of Attachment and Basic Needs

Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of attachment and connection with primary caregivers.
Heather shares her experience of dealing with behavioral changes in her children due to her grandparents’ illnesses.
Kristina talks about the impact of family routines and schedules on children’s behavior.
The conversation highlights the need to consider basic needs like diet, sleep, and screen time when dealing with behavioral changes.

“So when we talk about “getting back to the basics,” these are the things we’re talking about: We’re talking about attachment and connection. We’re talking about how we fill our days and our schedule. We’re talking about what we put in our bodies. We’re talking about how much sleep is the child getting. We think about how much time we’re spending out in nature and how much time we’re spending in front of a screen, as that impacts behavior hugely.”

Understanding and Addressing Behavioral Shifts

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of understanding why behavioral shifts make sense in the context of a child’s life.
Kristina shares a story of a parent whose child’s behavior changed after a family member became ill, emphasizing the need to consider family dynamics.
Heather talks about the importance of normalizing discomfort and reassuring children during times of change.
The conversation includes examples of how children’s behavior can be impacted by physical discomfort, such as ear infections.

The Role of the Support Village and Professional Help

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of having a support village that includes friends and professionals who can offer advice and reassurance.
Heather emphasizes the need to rule out physical causes of behavioral changes and the importance of seeking professional help when needed.

Impact of Life Changes on Children’s Behavior

Heather and Kristina discuss how significant life changes, such as moving homes or job changes, can impact children’s behavior.
Kristina shares her experience of her child’s behavior changing when her husband traveled frequently.
Heather talks about the impact of new siblings on older children and the importance of reassuring them of their place in the family.
The conversation includes examples of how children’s behavior can be impacted by changes in their routine and environment.

Normalizing Behavioral Changes and Seeking Help

Heather and Kristina emphasize the importance of normalizing behavioral changes and, again, seeking help when needed.
Kristina shares her experience of keeping a calendar to track her child’s sleep and behavior changes to better understand the patterns.
Heather talks about the importance of reassuring children during times of change and normalizing their feelings.
The conversation highlights the need to consider all possible factors when dealing with behavioral changes and to seek professional help when needed.

Further Reading :

Attachment and Connection:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

The Power of Play:

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

Understanding Temperaments:

Episode 5: Being The Detective / Chasing The “Why”, Part 1 of 2

Heather 00:00

Today, we’re diving into a two-part series on what we like to call “Being the Detectives.” This concept is all about understanding behavior changes in our kids.

Kristina 00:10

It’s about chasing the “why” – trying to solve the mystery of what’s behind our children’s behavior so we can better support them and approach them with more understanding.

Heather 00:20

And to crack the case, we need to consider some basic clues, like checking on our child’s diet, sleep, amount of screen time, physical activity, and especially our attachment with them.

Kristina 00:31

It’s amazing what a little snack can do. We’ve all been there.

Heather 00:35

We’ll also discuss how life changes, such as new schools, moving houses, even a new sibling or pet in the home can really throw our children off course.

Kristina 00:45

So when our kids act out, we want to think, “Hmm, what’s really going on here?” And help check on some basics when we’re searching for clues.

Heather 00:55

We’ll talk about how having a solid support system in these moments is so crucial – friends, family and professionals can offer insights we might not have thought of.

Kristina 01:05

We’ll also talk about how empathy, patience and a little compassion for what our children are going through can make a world of difference. After all, we want our kids to feel secure and understood exactly. Let’s do this.

Heather 01:24

Welcome to “Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood!”

Kristina 01:27

A Podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name is Kristina Boesma.

Heather 01:40

And I’m Heather Bouwman.Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

Kristina 02:02

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

Heather 02:08

Are you ready?

Kristina 02:09

Let’s hit the trails.

Heather 02:15

Kristina 02:28

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives.

Heather 02:36

Please visit www.ODCNetwork.org to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

Kristina, today, we are talking about being the detective in our own homes, and this is something that you and I actively did and still do as we’re raising our kids. We sure do, but when they were littler. It’s trickier because they don’t have as many words, and they maybe aren’t even verbal yet, right? You’ve had to unpack things with Grace long before she could speak. I did as well.

Kristina 03:13

I often wished there was a control panel like on her back that I could open up and be like

Heather 03:18

A reset button?

Kristina 03:20

Yes, yes, with the reset button, or at least, you know, lights that would flash like “lack of sleep, code 4B7, and you go to the manual. “Oh, they’re getting sick.”

Heather 03:27

Yes, it doesn’t work like that, because it’s really tricky when we see behavioral changes and we wonder, “Why is this happening? Is this me? Is this them? Am I doing something? Am I off track as a parent? Is there something wrong with my child developmentally?”

Kristina 03:53

Well and that’s where I think we go as parents, at least I did as a parent, very quickly to “there is something wrong,” there’s something wrong, and then that changes my behavior, which in turn changes the child’s behavior,

Heather 04:07

In response to your switches, right?

Kristina 04:11

We’re like this ping pong going back and forth, and instead of really taking a breath and searching for the “why,” I’m just reacting. Or we as parents are just reacting many times out of a place of fear.

Heather 04:28

Yeah, we maybe tend to want to pathologize things a little too quickly.

Kristina 04:35

Well, Googling doesn’t help it.

Heather 04:37

Oh my. Right. Oh, oftentimes it doesn’t.

Kristina 04:40

No. no, not when we’re coming from that place of fear, fear, yeah.

Heather 04:44

And then we’re losing sleep, and then our anxiety is going up more. And like you said, ifour behavior changes, the behavior of the people around us naturally changes as well, because all of a sudden we’re off, and then that impacts them, and then they’re more off, right? And then we’re just in this reactive space with each other.

Kristina 05:04

One of the reasons that it’s important to me, and I know to you as well, to really talk about being the detective in your home and chasing that “why” is because every family goes through this. Every parent and caretaker of children will go through this, where there’s a shift in the child’s behavior, and there’s a space of saying, “What is happening? Why is it happening? And what do I need to do about it, right?” So being able to talk about some of the struggles that our children have and how we can help support them through that struggle is really about understanding what is happening, what is prompting this. As children develop, they will go through periods where things kind of line up and all click and they’re feeling confident in the skills that they have, and that’s beautiful. But as they move into a different space where they’re acquiring new skills, the terrain can get a little bumpy. It gets uncomfortable. It does. And so you see shifts in behavior. And I’ve said before, right? Children come into your life, and we have guilt and we have fear, and I was always worried that there was something that was seriously wrong, and lots of really typical behavior with children when they’re going through these times of acquiring new skills can look like things that we would clinically diagnose.

Heather 06:29

Absolutely. I remember learning that my boys had allergies and how that impacted not only their bodies and how their bodies felt. We live in the woods, and we have a lot of oak trees around us, and they’re black oak trees, and they’re they release a whole lot of stuff. And my kids would get like, almost like they looked uncomfortable in their body, like rolly shoulders, and when I looked closely like they did actually have some reactions on their backs and their skin, and it’s like us when we have a cold or maybe a sinus infection that impacts our behavior. And my kids were experiencing that. They were crabbier. They were just less tolerant. They didn’t feel good. But you know, there’s not a three year old in the world that can say, “Mommy, I’m all stuffed up. I got the allergies.” They just don’t talk like that, right? They’re just itching their eyes and trying to figure it all out, and they can’t breathe as well, maybe. And that journey for me was quite a journey to be like, “Oh, we got to get them some help, because they are not feeling well.”

Kristina 07:40

So when we talk about why it’s important to talk about this, it is because it happens to everybody. It’s because we worry about things like crazy as parents raising children in this world, and many times we fall into this place of it being really important to us that others view us as parents and our children as having it all together, right? So there can be this pressure to say, “Come on, act right. Act right vecause other people are going to think there’s something wrong with you,” or that I’ve really messed up as a parent. So that pressure to appear like we’ve got it all together, when maybe we don’t.

Heather 08:25

Nobody does.

Kristina 08:27

It’s all just smoke and mirrors, that’s what I figured out. Yeah. So let’s talk about, how do we do that? How do we chase the “why?” Where do we start? Maybe all of a sudden, they were a very easy going child, and all of a sudden they’ve started hitting or biting, and you think, “Oh, my word. What do we do with this?” So talk us through. We always say, you gotta first get back to the basics.

Heather 08:55

Yes. Going back to the basics is what we want to naturally do when we’re in those moments of our breath is catching, maybe the temperature is rising, and we think, “what is happening here?” Don’t go to Google. Go back to your basics and think about: “How’s my attachment?” How’s the attachment with my child? Am I spending the same amount of time with them that I have been we talk about.I’m going to give you the – I think there’s kind of like five – so it’s attachment that we look at, and we’ll unpack that a bit more. How are they eating? What are we putting in their bodies? What are they taking in? What are they drinking? How much are they drinking sleep? How much sleep are they getting? How much deep, uninterrupted sleep, long stretches? Are they waking early? Are they going to bed at a good time? How long are those things taking, really taking a good look at sleep. Screen time is a big one. And man, oh man, do screens just seem to get more and more prevalent in our world and in our homes and in our families. Thinking about how old your children are, how much screen time is reasonable? What type of screen time that is makes a big difference. We’ll talk more specifically about that. Movement, just in general. How much movement are they getting how much quality time outside? What is their play like? Do they have time to play? Are they over-scheduled? Are they in a lot of extracurriculars that maybe aren’t getting them enough free play and imaginary play is it all just really scheduled? Let’s go back to attachment for a minute, okay, and talk about how paramount that is to children. It’s one of those foundational things we’ve said before. Attachment to primary caregivers for children surpasses even food and water in importance. And it truly does. And quality time is something that is so meaningful and necessary to them. We all have challenges. We all have things that are going to pull us from being able to be in our routines, in our home that are going to pull us from having some of that quality time with our children. Work travel could be one thing. That was one thing for my husband. He had to build in certain times with our children at certain parts of the day because of his schedule on the daily I was at home with our kids during that time. But I distinctly remember a time in my life where my grandparents, who were incredibly important to my husband and I and to our family in general, were both very ill, and there were extended hospital stays, and that took me who was the primary caregiver for my kids all day out of our home in these big chunks of time, and so I would be at the hospital with my family. I would be away, I’d probably miss bedtime, and they’d be out of their normal routine, and then maybe I’d be gone before they got up the next morning. And so it wasn’t the typical that they were used to. I have to know in those moments I’m going to see a behavioral shift. And I’m going to feel that too. I’m going to be more exhausted. Sometimes we can trick ourselves into thinking that children are mini adults, they’re not. I had high expectations for my kids. They were really, really good, capable, competent children, but they’re not miniature adults. And they don’t have their whole brain, right? They don’t have nearly as many tools and coping skills as I have as an adult. And so, of course, when I had those things happening in my life, I’m going to see behavioral changes in my kids, because their routine has now been pretty significantly altered for quite a few days in a row. And so I can expect they’re going to be more clingy. They’re going to be more needy when I’m there. I’m going to hear more whining. And I may have a much diminished capacity to deal with that. So , for me, in those moments, it’s saying to myself, “This is okay. This is a season. Probably a pretty short season in life. This isn’t gonna last forever, and we’ll get back to where we were. But why do all of these behaviors make sense right now?” And that’s something we encourage parents to ask themselves when they see a behavioral shift. And I asked a parent to do this one time, and she was so frustrated with her darling, sweet little boy. And he, oh, he was such a spitfire.

Kristina

I love those.

Heather

Oh, I do too. They’re my favorite. He was such a spitfire and wildly hilarious. But she thought, “Oh, I’m gonna be really tired the rest of my life.” And she wasn’t wrong. I mean, it was gonna be some work to keep up. She was gonna be in really good physical shape. But when I said to her, “So think about all the reasons that his behavior makes sense,” she came back to me and kind of burst through the door in my office and was like “Heather, three pages. I have three pages of why this makes sense. And this activity was so powerful because I am seeing so much with what my son is going through.” They had traveled out of the country for the holidays, stayed with family, kind of in this one big, huge space all together. Over the holidays, there were like 12 or 15 people all in the same room. Mattresses thrown on floors. She’s like, “He had all of these loving, wonderful people around him. Then we came back to the States. He’s away from that extended family. He has to go back to sleeping in his room by himself.” She’s like, “It makes perfect sense, right?” It makes perfect sense. And she had all these other things on there, and that is a powerful thing for us to as a parent. In the midst of all of these behavioral changes, or even just one significant one that you see with your child, to say, “Why might this make perfect sense? I’m going to sit down and just think about that, right? Maybe jot these things down right?”

Kristina 15:54

And remembering all behavior is communication. So instead of leaping to “there’s something wrong with my kid. I think that I might be responsible. What are we going to do?”

Heather 16:08

“I’m doing a terrible job, and I’m not a good parent. I’m not good at this,” right?

Kristina 16:11

Instead, taking that breath and saying, “Let me consider why this behavior makes perfect sense.” So when we think about how are the basics? Is there anything that needs tending? Do we need to look at sleep? Have we been over scheduled and looking at those things? That’s a great place to start. Have there been shifts in the family routine? We were fortunate enough growing up that my grandmother lived with us on and off many times over the years, and that was such a gift, and it disrupted the routine. I wouldn’t change it for the world, but being aware that some of those things shift the dynamics in the home. They absolutely do. I was very aware of it. My husband traveled a lot, especially when Grace was young. Well, he still does. But the shift that would occur when he left and when he returned. And you’d think, “But we’re just happy that he’s home.” Yes, we’re happy that he’s home and

Heather 17:22

It’s another person back in the house to get used to.

Kristina 17:25

We learned this, I mean, many, many years ago in grad school, that oftentimes the child is what we call the “symptom-bearer.” So we look to a child whose behavior has shifted, and we think there’s something wrong with them. And, many times, that shift in behavior is simply alerting the family to there being a shift or change in the family. But because the others within the family either are responsible for the shift or, at the very least, have more coping skills to manage the shift or the change. You see the behavior crop up in the child, and too often, we focus on what’s wrong with the child, instead of saying, “Huh, what kinds of things have happened here in our lives, in our home, with our routine, with our schedule, that may be causing this behavior to emerge?” I recently was talking to a parent and her child had, oh, he’s an amazing kid, hilarious, bright, so curious and inquisitive, and he began to display behaviors that had been extinguished. So he had had a challenge with controlling his impulses. He liked to move through spaces, kind of like he was a jungle explorer, going through the vines and the plants and pushing them aside, but they were people and not plants. So he had learned a lot about how to move through spaces and how to embody the pause between stimulus, input and reactivity. So being able to have input and then pause so he could respond. Beautiful. Making tremendous gains. So, all of a sudden, we had a re-emergence of behaviors that had long been extinguished: hitting was back. Biting was back. Kicking was back. And the parent was deeply concerned and was like, “You know, we need to have a neuro-psych. We’ve got to get that kid evaluated. Can I get him in O.T., P.T., therapy? What are we going to do here? Does he need medication?” All these things. Because this is not how your child can go through the world. So there’s a lot of fear there. And when we sat down and thought about it, it was the case that a family member had become ill. And it doesn’t always take a lot. That member wasn’t even living within the home, but there was more energy going toward the care of the ill family member, less going toward the child. And so that attachment had been weakened. And I remember saying to the mom, “Okay, so it’s been three days of this re-emergence of behaviors. Three days. Let’s zoom back out and say he does have the skills. There’s something that’s keeping him from exhibiting those skills right now. So let’s chase the ‘why.’” And it was that there’s this ill family member. And, lo and behold, that was recognized, attention could be shifted back to that attachment, and the behaviors were no longer present.

Heather 20:46

They were extinguished. Yeah, and that’s exactly what we mean when we say “behavior is communication.” His behavior was communicating what he couldn’t say with words. Children don’t just come up to us – it would be so great if they did, right? “Mommy, I really miss you. Could you just come sit with me because you’ve been taking care of so and so and I miss you?” Yeah. That’d be great. Yeah. No child ever in the history of the world has ever said that.

Kristina 21:12

No. They just bite you.

Heather 21:15

Which somehow attracts a very different response.

Kristina 21:18

It does. We don’t always respond to that with compassion in the moment as they’re locked onto our arm.

Heather 21:25

Exactly. So chasing the “why” in that case, you could walk that parent through that. And that was really wonderful, and it was figured out in a pretty short order. Some things take a little bit longer. Yes, I remember my little Luke, who I nursed for 364 days, when he got to 365 and it was his birthday, I set the sippy cup down on his high chair tray with cow’s milk, and he took a drink of that and looked at me in a way that said, “I’m not having this. What is happening here?” He looked at me like I had cheated on him, and I looked back at him like, “No, no, no, darling, that ship has sailed. Welcome to cow’s milk.” And we did this dance for a little bit. And eventually I realized after like, we’re gonna go 50/50, I’m not gonna nurse this child anymore. We’re done. And really being feeling like I made it. I did what I wanted to do, and now we’re moving on. And he was like, “No, we’re not, we’re not moving on,” right? So I was mixing the milk and putting it in the sippy, and lo and behold, this was my child who had a dairy allergy. So, it took a bit to figure that out. He was uncomfortable. But Luke was not my child that was very good at showing me his discomfort. He was the child that I could take to the doctor for his checkup at nine months, and she would be like, “Has he been eating well and sleeping well? Yeah, great. Well, he has a double ear infection. “Has he been behaving the same way?” I’m like, “Yeah.” Happy go lucky kid just didn’t communicate those things as readily as other children did. But when he defiantly decided he wasn’t going to drink cow’s milk, he knew something about himself that I didn’t. It upset his tummy.

Kristina 23:27

And your response to that is wildly different if you think “this child is simply being defiant. They’re being stubborn and they need to get over themselves, because I am the parent.” Yeah, very different response than “What are they trying to tell me? Why would this behavior make perfect sense?”

Heather 23:46

Yes, we ended up on goat’s milk. I thought I was gonna have to buy one and milk it. Goat’s milk is expensive.

Kristina 23:55

I can see you doing it, though. Yeah, if you needed to, that’s what you do.

Heather 24:00

I always did want a goat, and my husband said, “The first time I come home and that thing is standing on my truck, it’s not gonna end well for the goat.” I was like, “You know what? Let’s not go there. Let’s not find out how this story ends.”

Kristina 24:22

I love it. So sometimes we see a shift in behavior because our child is ill, like you said about Luke and the allergy to dairy, and we just don’t know it yet, I know that you have – I love when you tell the story-

Heather 24:47

Yes, I have a family member who I love and adore, and is very near and dear to me, and she has a little one, and we’re very close, so she can call me and say things like, “I need your help. My child is demonic.” And I’m like, “Honey, your child is darling. She is just so sweet.” And she’s like, “She’s not. If you don’t believe me, come and spend some time with her.” And I will say, “What’s happening?” I don’t know. She just wants to argue with me about everything. She’s always my little helper. She’s my shadow. She loves to do the things and today she’s just contrary. Everything is a fight. Everything is just a disagreement. Everything and nothing at all is a disagreement. Like we just can’t get anything done. We can’t get to a place. She needs to be by her all the time. She’s so clingy. She’s never like this. How she’s sleeping? Not good. The last four nights, I’ve been up, like, four times in the night, and it’s been awful. Okay, how’s she eating? Huh? I haven’t, maybe, maybe not great. Okay, have you asked her for ears hurt? No. You always know that. How do you always know that? Like, well, three kids, they’ve all had ear troubles. The thing we talk about ear infections a lot on here, guys, the thing with ear infections is it takes fluid in the inner ear that has to develop and sit over some time before it actually becomes an infection. But for some kids, that fluid in the ear that’s enough to just be uncomfortable. It’s pressure, but then eventually, when that becomes infected. It sits like pond water, right? And eventually the bacteria grows in there, and it gets more uncomfortable. Those ear infections can take some time. And I think what I realized as a parent was, for children, it can be a really slow progression. And they can kind of adapt to that pain and maybe grow used to it a bit, and just they don’t know. They have no awareness of this isn’t normal. They just think, “Oh, everybody has ears that hurts, or everybody blah, blah, blah.” And I will say, as even a grown up, face pain is personality altering for children and adults. I think for children like they sometimes just don’t know where that pain is coming from, and it’s almost more like just an irritant, and then we have to look at their behavior. Because they’re responding like something is just an irritant, and so that’s where my sweet little family member was feeling like everything was a fight. Everything was a fight. And then she would call the doctor, take her, and she’s like, “Guess what? Double ear infection.” Yeah, she’s got the one little peanut, and she’s gotten to the point now where she her first thing always says, like, “ears.” “She’s a monster. Ears. We’re gonna get her ears checked.” And then she’ll get them checked. And she’s like, “Oh, no, it’s not her ears. Now what?” But it’s that journey of looking at, how is she sleeping? How did we figure that out? Right? I asked her, “How has her sleep been the last few nights? What’s her food intake been like. Is everything a fight? Is she able to be content and play on her own?” No, she’s super clingy. Major switch. This is a child who loves to play and can play for hours in her own worlds. So those are big behavioral shifts. So being able to say “something’s happening here, yeah, and it’s not that all of a sudden, overnight, she has just become this child who can’t endure or be away from her parent. There’s something happening, right?”

Kristina 28:52

I remember times when I’ve been ill, and I think this is common. I think many of us parents experience this when we’re ill. Wouldn’t it be lovely if the children were just really independent and quiet and compliant on those days. And yet I remember like being on the couch and thinking, “Oh, you are killing me today. I have no capacity. I’m so ill.” And yet, my child’s behavior is worse than it is on any other day.

Heather 29:25

Do you remember coming to my house where I was flat in bed? We had gone out for lunch the day before. You added something different than me. I had a salad.

Kristina 29:40

It was bad guys.

Heather 29:41

It was real bad. It was twleve hours of out one end and then twelve hours out the other. It was not pretty. No, it was like, it was ugly in there. And I called you, and do you remember? Travis was gone? And I called you because my mom, my own mother, was like “No thanks.” And I’m thinking, Ava was three. I’m thinking she’s probably cracking eggs on the kitchen floor. I have no idea. I couldn’t get out of bed. And if I did, it was like stuff was happening.

Kristina 30:14

So I throw all caution to the wind. I remember going in in my hazmat suit.

Heather 30:21

So funny. I remember calling you and saying, “Please come and get my child.” And you were like, “I’m on my way right now. I’m coming. I’m on my way.” And then you got there, and you came in my bedroom, and you were like, “It’s bad.” And I was like, “Girl, get out of here.” I don’t think I knew at that point yet it was food poisoning. I was like, “Save yourself. Don’t breathe this air.” And you’re like, “Ava’s fine. There are no cracked eggs anywhere.” I don’t know what she was doing – eating a granola bar and watching Doc McStuffins probably. She was pretty independent. Third born. She was fine. But you brought her to your home. And we need to be able to call our people in those moments, because even when your mother won’t come to help you, that was a smart call. I mean, eventually we found out it was food poisoning and nobody else got sick. Yeah. I mean, that’s hilarious. It is hilarious. She’s gonna listen to that and be like, “Of course you had to say that.”

Kristina 31:24

Yeah. Well. So it’s a beautiful example, Heathe, of how our village is so important. Having others along with us on this parenting journey, so that we can call them and say “S.O.S.” Big time. Mama down. We need help over here. Or my kid’s demonic today and have somebody say, “Okay, take a breath.” They’re darling, right? “Take a breath. Let’s think through some things.” It’s important to be able to have somebody you can contact who can help give you the voice of reason and not those people that are like, “They’re still using a passy? Hmm,” or like, “They’re not riding a bike yet?”We don’t need those kinds of voices.

Heather 32:13

And we’re not saying there aren’t times that children will push the boundaries. Oh man, they will. And sometimes that’s just a boundary push, but we’re talking about like 180 degree shifts in behavior that would cause a parent to say, “My child is acting demonic.” Oh, okay, well, that’s something more consistent than just saying “no” or being a challenging child in a moment on a boundary.

Kristina 32:39

I remember a good friend, mother of two, and her youngest was in kindergarten, and all of a sudden he just started dropping trow, like at school repeatedly. And she called me really concerned, like “He can’t keep his pants up. Every time they turn around, he’s dropping his pants” and assuring her it just means that developmentally, this is where it is. And it’s a great time to start talking about things we do in private and things we do around other people. But that fear of “why in the world can my child not keep his business in his pants? He keeps dropping them all the time in public places.” So leaping to that, and instead being able to phone a friend and say, “I’m concerned about this. Talk me off the ledge. Or also being able to call a person in your village and have them say, “I think that would be a great conversation to have with your pediatrician.” Because we also need that for those of us who can be the deniers, like, “Oh, it’s not a big deal.” Or it was just like, “It’ll work itself out.” Yeah, it’s not a problem. It’s not a problem. We need the people in our lives who can also say, “I think you’re right. I think it’s going to work itself out. But I also think it would be wise to have this conversation with this particular person. I’ll say oftentimes, let’s just rule it out. Let’s just rule whatever we think might be happening out. And if so, that’s great. And if it ends up that, you know, your child is struggling, like you know mine did, or mine does with ADHD. Ah, okay. Let’s not shame or try to continue to correct this behavior, which she has no control over. And, at that age, not able to, you know, kind of build those skills. So we need both in our village, the people that can talk us off the ledge and the people that can give us sometimes the hard information of “I think it would be a good idea to make that call.”

Heather 34:47

And we’re all going to have changes in our lives that we can’t control, and those are going to have impacts on us, on our children, but being able to know that attachment is so important. That what we have going into our kids bodies can impact their behavior. And how much water they’re drinking, and what they’re drinking, if it’s juice, if it’s pop, all of that has an impact on behavior. And so being able to go back to those basics and really think through in the midst of changes. I think about as adults, like, what do they say? The biggest stressors in life are like a new home and a new job and maybe getting married or having a child. The same is true for our children. Like when we move homes, that’s a huge shift for children. Some people pack up and move to a whole new state and maybe don’t have their support extended family there. Yes, that’s a big shift for children. It’s a big shift for adults. So, if we feel that as adults, you can bet your kids are going to feel that as well. Also job switches for parents also are big things for children. It impacts their availability to you and the time that you get with them. New siblings. We get lots of questions about new siblings. And oftentimes we’ll hear “Now my oldest is acting like a baby.” Of course they are. Because they see that the baby needs you all the time and needs you to feed it and to put it to bed and to diaper and all of those things. So, all of a sudden, the oldest is like, “Oh, I don’t want to be nearly as independent.”

Kristina 36:37

No. And I always think too that the children who are already in the family, when that new infant or child arrives, they’re the ones that have to switch roles, right? Mom is still mom, dad is still dad. But those children, it’s like, “Oh, I’m not the I’m not the baby anymore. Now I’m the oldest.” They’re having to shift their role, and that’s a tremendous change.

Heather 37:01

I noticed with the birth of my second and my third is when everybody comes to visit, those grandparents, who normally are just, I mean, let’s face it, your parents don’t care about you anymore. Once you have children, they absolutely about the children, right? Like, “Oh, hi,” and they see those children, but for that oldest and all of a sudden there’s that baby, and that’s taking everybody’s attention. Those are the moments as a parent to snuggle in real tight to the other child, who’s used to being the center of grandma and grandpa, aunts’ and uncles’ attention, but this new baby is all the everything. And those are the moments to snuggle in with that other one and be like, “You’re such a great big brother” or “You’re such a great big sister.” And remind them of their place in the family and how important they are. And I always talked with my kids, too, about it can be hard when everybody wants to come and just see this new baby. They still love you so much. And you know what? Once they start squawking and need a diaper change, they hand them right back. And then you get all that attention again, because you’re the big kid, and you don’t do that anymore. Because new siblings is a huge thing. Other huge shifts: getting rid of the pacifier.

Kristina 38:20

Oh boy. Uh huh. Yeah. My child is a thumb sucker. Yep. Which is a different thing. You can’t, like, nip the top off of that.

Heather 38:29

No, no! I did. I cut the end off that passy one day. And Zack got in his little crib and sat up and looked at it and pulled it out, and he called it his “taby,” and said, “My taby is broken.” And I said, “What do you think about that?” And he stuck it in. It had that little stump. And he was like, “I can do it. I can make it work.” And he did for a little bit, and then it just went away. And then it was so funny, like, a month later, he found one, because kids stash them all everywhere, right? He found one, like in the ficus tree, in the base of it, and pulled it out and looked at it like, “I feel like I know you, but I don’t really know you.” And I was like, “We’re not going back to that.” Potty training is another big transitional time, and that’s an important piece. When kids make these big developmental leaps, they can feel like their ship isn’t steady, and so that’s when we as parents can come in and steady the ship and be the reminder of “It’s gonna pass. It feels a little different now. We’re gonna get through this. You’ve got this, I’ve got you.” Those reminders to kids, I think, are really powerful to be able to say, “You’re doing great. It’s okay. This is normal. “Normalizing some of that discomfort, I think, helps them calm down. And the fact that we can own that “we’ve got you” helps.

Kristina 40:00

You know, I’ve spoken about the calendar I kept when Grace was younger, the first, I don’t know, six, seven, eight years of her life, where I would keep track of her sleep, because she struggles with sleep. And I would also keep track of these times of altered behavior, partly because I’m chasing the “why,” and partly because I, just again, needed something to bear witness. Because sometimes, in the midst of it, it feels like this has been going on forever and it’s never going to end. And those calendars, I still have them to be able to look through and say, “Yeah, that was a hard stretch, and it lasted for eleven days. And then that stretch was over, and things were resettled again, and we were back to a good place,” to not get lost in the midst of the tricky and the hard, but to be able to say, “Yep, acknowledge what it is. This is what it is.” Get back to checking your basics, phone a friend, take a breath and be able to remind yourself this is part of the journey. The terrain is tricky sometimes, and yet, with those things, being the detective chasing the “why,” considering why this behavior makes perfect sense is going to put you in a much better position. We as parents are in a much better position when we have those things to consider instead of, “Oh my god, is this who my child is and there’s something seriously wrong with them, and don’t let anybody else find out about it, because I need everyone to believe that we’re the perfect family.”

Heather 41:48

One thing that we didn’t talk about, that we probably should is when our kids get sick, it’s mandatory downtime, right? You have a child that’s sick, so all of a sudden there’s no more evening activities. You’re more home. You’re with them. You’re maybe holding them. They’re getting all of this sweet cuddles. And of course, they love that. We all love that. And then when they get better, they’re not as independent and aren’t as able to go to bed well, because, of course, they want you there, right? And as a parent, then we’ve maybe missed work, we’ve stayed home, we’ve been up in the night with them because they’re not well. We’re maybe depleted and tired, and then we get them through it, and now maybe we’re getting sick, right? The beautiful gift that keeps on going. In a family of five, that illness can take a while to pass on.

Kristina 42:45

Cycle through. Cycle through the family.

Heather 42:49

And so it becomes this challenge of, “Oh, they’re better now, why can’t they just go back well?” Because they settled in to all that closeness. And if we can remember that, we just have to draw it back. It’s going to take a little bit, and you can lessen it gradually. And you can also say to them, “And now mommy’s sick or daddy’s sick, and I need to go take care of myself, and I’m going to put you to bed,” and you can set boundaries around that stuff, but knowing on the front end, “Yep, it’s just the way it goes for all of us is those kids want us, and they want to be there with us, and after they’ve been ill, it’s really common and really normal, and you’ll get back there, and it’s okay if it takes a little bit of time.” Yep, it’s good thing to be mindful of, because it can be real frustrating, especially if you’re getting ill yourself and you just want to go to bed.

Kristina 43:48

Grace already, when she was two years old, would say, “messin.” Messin. I was like, :You want medicine? I mean, you’re perfectly fine.” Messin. Then I thought, ‘Well, it probably isn’t wise to listen to your two year old about when they want drugs.” So I would ignore it. But I learned that she knew when she was getting sick. Dollars to donuts the next day it would be, “Oh for crying out loud, she’s got a fever.” Yep, she knew she was getting sick before I knew she was getting sick. So I did learn to listen to my two year old, and when she said, “messin.”

Heather 44:26

It’s so funny. I remember thinking as a parent, “Oh, I just wish they could tell me.” And then when they do, we’re like, “No. How could they possibly know?”

Kristina 44:36

How could they possibly know-

Heather 44:38

Our wish came true.

Kristina 44:41

And then we still, and that’s a difference in people. It’s a difference in children as well. Some of us are very aware of what’s happening inside our body. You’re one of those people. I’m the person that I just -oh, girl, no idea –

Heather 44:54

That’s a whole different episode. And that one’s about grown ups.

Kristina 45:00

Yeah, so when we talk about getting back to the basics, these are the things we’re talking about. We’re talking about attachment and connection. We’re talking about how we fill our days and our schedule.

Heather 45:10

We’re talking about what we put in our bodies. We’re talking about how much sleep is the child getting.

Kristina 45:17

We think about how much time we’re spending out in nature.

Heather 45:21

And how much time we’re spending in front of a screen, as that impacts behavior hugely.

Kristina 45:31

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina-

Heather 45:37

and I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

Kristina 45:42

Until next time –

Kristina and Heather 45:44

See you on the trails.

Kristina 45:48

Heather 45:59

The ODC Network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Kristina 46:07

Heather 46:20

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land and nature to learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCNetwork.org.

Episode 4: Temperament Theory As A Parenting Tool, Part 2

Clinical social workers Kristina and Heather continue their conversation discussing David Keirsey’s temperament theory as a parenting tool, focusing on two of the four temperaments: Idealists and Rationals.

Idealists are imaginative, empathetic, and intuitive, and often misunderstood due to their abstract thinking. They emphasize personal growth, have strong intuition, and are deeply connected to others’ feelings. Idealists adults find setting boundaries to be a challenge, whereas differentiating between reality and fantasy is a challenge for idealist children.

Rationals, making up 10% of the population, are logical, strategic, and independent. They value knowledge and intellectual debate. Parenting these children requires understanding their unique needs and fostering their intellectual curiosity. A Rational child will benefit from being given more information and a chance to understand the reasons behind rules, boundaries, and expectations.

“Understanding temperaments just helps us have more empathy. It helps increase our understanding, which then increases our joy and our ability to be able to connect to, to motivate, to respond to, to pause and remind ourselves, “Oh, I tend to react this way, but they tend to see things this way.” It’s a deeper understanding. And what we know is: knowledge is power, and if we can use that knowledge in our homes, with our children, with our spouses, man, does it make the journey so much more enjoyable.”

Understanding Idealists in Parenting

Kristina describes Idealists as imaginative, romantic, authentic, and extremely intuitive, emphasizing their sensitivity and relational nature.
Heather shares personal anecdotes about her and Kristina’s Idealist children, highlighting their imaginative play and sensitivity.
Kristina discusses the intense emotions and deep connections Idealists have, including the need for a soulful connection in relationships.

Challenges of Co-Parenting with Idealists

Kristina and Heather talk about the differences in their spouses’ perspectives on intimacy and connection, illustrating the communication gap between Idealists and other temperaments.
Heather shares her experience of having to learn to communicate effectively with her husband, who is not an Idealist.
Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of creative outlets for Idealists to maintain their emotional well-being.
Heather recounts her personal journey into photography as a creative outlet during her time at home with her children.

Empathy and Boundaries in Idealist Children

Kristina and Heather discuss the empathetic nature of Idealist children and the challenges they face in setting boundaries.
Kristina shares a story about her daughter Grace’s response to being excluded by classmates, highlighting her empathetic but naive actions.
Heather emphasizes the importance of teaching Idealist children to set boundaries and use their empathy constructively.
Kristina and Heather discuss the unique challenges Idealist children face in understanding the difference between reality and fantasy.

The Role of Intuition in Idealists

Kristina and Heather talk about the strong intuition and empathy of Idealists, which can sometimes lead to misunderstandings.
Kristina shares a personal experience of trusting her intuition about a person, which was later validated.
Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges Idealists face in being understood by others due to their abstract thinking and strong emotions.
Kristina highlights the importance of Idealists feeling unconditionally loved and accepted by their parents.

Idealists in Relationships and Professions

Kristina and Heather discuss the unique needs and desires of Idealists in relationships, emphasizing the search for a soulmate connection.
Kristina shares her personal experience of wanting a deeper connection with her husband, who is not an Idealist.
Heather and Kristina talk about the importance of understanding and valuing the unique qualities of Idealists in relationships.
Kristina and Heather highlight the professional fields Idealists often choose, such as counseling and helping professions, due to their passion for personal growth and supporting others.

Supporting Idealist Children

Kristina and Heather emphasize the need for parents to understand and protect Idealist children from the challenges they face.
Kristina shares a story about her daughter Grace’s emotional response when they sold their car, illustrating the deep connections Idealist children have.
Heather discusses the importance of recognizing and supporting Idealist children’s unique needs and perspectives.
Kristina and Heather highlight the challenges Idealist children face in understanding the difference between reality and fantasy, and the importance of setting boundaries.

The Role of Intuition and Empathy in Idealists

Kristina and Heather discuss the strong intuition and empathy of Idealists, which can sometimes lead to misunderstandings.
Kristina shares a personal experience of trusting her intuition about a person, which was later validated.
Heather and Kristina discuss the challenges Idealists face in being understood by others due to their abstract thinking and strong emotions.
Kristina highlights the importance of Idealists feeling unconditionally loved and accepted by their parents.

Heather and Kristina share some ways parents can help Idealist children navigate the challenges of setting boundaries and understanding reality vs. fantasy:

Validate their strong emotions and empathy, but also teach them how to set healthy boundaries. Help them understand it’s okay to say no or take a break from intense feelings.
Gently guide them when they are having trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy. Acknowledge their imaginative play, but also reinforce what is real. Use concrete examples to illustrate the difference.
Provide unconditional love and acceptance. Idealist children need to feel fully accepted for who they are, even when their behaviors or perceptions differ from others.
Role-play social situations and practice assertive communication. This can help Idealist children learn to advocate for themselves while still being considerate of others.
Encourage them to share their feelings, but also model how to express emotions in a balanced way. Idealists can learn to articulate their needs without overwhelming others.

Key takeaway: balance empathy, validation, and boundary-setting to help Idealist children thrive. With patience and understanding, parents can nurture their child’s strengths while also building essential life skills.

Understanding Rationals In Parenting

Heather and Kristina discuss the final of the four temperaments: Rationals, who make up about 10% of the population.
Unlike the more common Guardians, Rationals are known for their logical, strategic thinking and independence.
Rationals plan meticulously and expect efficiency, often feeling frustrated by disorganization or emotional responses from others.

Rationals In Relationships

Heather and Kristina discuss how Rationals prioritize intellectual connections and debates in relationships, seeking partners who can match their level of intelligence.
They discuss how sometimes Rationals appear to lack empathy, viewing situations logically rather than emotionally. This can create tension, especially when paired with more emotionally-driven personality types like “Idealists.”
In educational settings, Rationals may challenge authority and prefer logical reasoning over positional power, which can lead to misunderstandings.
Rationals thrive in environments that stimulate their intellect and creativity, often excelling in fields like engineering or technology.
Heather and Kristina discuss how understanding the traits of Rationals helps parents and educators better support Rational children, fostering their strengths while accommodating their unique perspectives.

Listen to Heather and Kristina discuss the other two of the four main temperaments: Guardians and Artisans in Episode 3!

Further Reading :

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

The Power of Play:

Attachment and Connection:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Episode 4: Temperament Theory As A Parenting Tool, Part 2

Kristina 00:00

In this episode, we’ll build upon our discussion of David Keirsey’s temperament theory.

Heather 00:04

We’ll share our experiences using temperament theory as a parenting tool, and explore two more of the temperaments, Idealists and Rationals.

Kristina 00:12

Understanding these temperaments can help us improve our parenting by allowing us to tailor our approach to each child’s individual needs.

Heather 00:21

We’ll explore the dynamics unique to each temperament and how understanding each type helps us show up with more empathy and joy as we support and grow our children. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood!

Kristina 00:38

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

Heather 00:52

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

Kristina 01:14

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

Heather 01:20

Are you ready?

Kristina 01:20

Let’s hit the trails. So let’s talk about Idealists. Some words that come to mind when you think of an Idealist are: imaginative, romantic, authentic, extremely intuitive. They are kind-hearted and empathetic. They’re sensitive, very relational, and can be great diplomats. They’re very diplomatic. Idealists are the fanciful, and they love to use their imagination. They like to dream about what is possible, and they live in that world. They’re not as aware of what they necessarily can see, touch, taste, hear, in reality, but they love fantasy and thinking about what could possibly be. So Heather and I both have Idealist children. They’re the ones that would have all those little figurines and create these whole communities, and they all had backstories and very real feelings, because they love living in that imaginary world.

Heather 02:37

And they just loved the little figurine. I don’t know what that was, but they stay there a long time, and they create entire communities, which is really what it always was. There were entire groups of people, and then those people had villages and animals and pets and a vet. And, I mean, it was amazing to really see, but they never want to pick it up, because it goes on. Their play goes on, and they stay in that play for a really long time. At some point you got to get the community out of the kitchen.

Kristina 03:13

So Idealists, again, living in that fantasy world, they are very tender hearted. They have very strong feelings, and they pride themselves on being loving and authentic. They can be really intense mates. If you co parent with somebody that’s an Idealist, that can be pretty intense. I’ll say to my husband that I just want to be closer. I just want to, like, I want us to be closer. And he says, “I have no idea what you are talking about. We are as close as two people can be.” But I want, like, I want a soulful connection.

Heather 03:54

Yeah, you’re talking about intimacy. And Vince is like, moving shoulder to shoulder with you, like,” I don’t know how to…should I sit on your lap?”

Kristina 04:04

We could not be physically closer. He doesn’t. That’s not the closeness I’m talking about when I say those kinds of things.

Heather 04:11

It’s almost like a different language. And my husband, Travis, and I run into this, and I had to learn that I had to say to him, because I am a dreamer in some, well, in probably lots of ways, but I like – not a dreamer in the not reality type of way. But I like to have vision. And then I like to plan to make those things come to fruition. He likes a plan. He doesn’t like the dream it up part so much, because Idealists have this need. I think you and I, probably why we’re doing this podcast is, as professionals, we have to have this creative outlet. Otherwise our light goes dim. Wouldn’t you agree? I think that’s just, there’s this we have to kind of have this creative flame burning all the time. And when I was home with my kids for a stint, it’s why I, all of a sudden, went into photography and these different things. We live in a rural farm country area, and I’ve told the story about how we will drive past a field, and I was raised in a farm community, and my grandpa had property, and so I grew up very much running through a pasture, and so I will look out the window as my husband and I are driving by and be like, “Oh, I just love how that field is plowed up and it’s going to be planted and in no time, it’s going to be green.” And he just kind of looks at me like, “It’s all very lovely Anne of Green Gables,” because he he’s like, “It’s dirt, right? Like, I see dirt.” Yeah, but I look at how it’s plowed in the linear nature, and I appreciate it, like when they take their curves and they’re all in a line, and then that all grows so beautifully. And he’s like, like, that is a different language. Completely different language.

Kristina 05:59

And what it is is that your husband, as a Guardian, speaks literally. And Idealists-

Heather 06:08

Speak figuratively. Yes, and I’m laughing because I speak in metaphors all the time.

Kristina 06:12

All the time. We would much rather tell a story than using this content.

Heather 06:19

And I think it’s because I realize people understand me when I do that, because otherwise they think I’m Anne of Green Gables. I don’t know, right? I think that’s how I’ve learned like this is how people better understand what I’m trying to communicate.

Kristina 06:32

Yep. The natural tendency is to use abstract language, abstract concepts. That’s where the Idealist likes to live. Idealists are passionately concerned with personal growth. They always want to better themselves, right?

Heather 06:50

Oh, yeah. And I feel like sometimes in our work environment, that’s what trips me up, is I think everybody’s like that, and they’re not.

Kristina 06:59

Idealists have very strong intuition, and they trust their intuition, because over time, they’ve known it to be pretty accurate. It’s like they have a sixth sense, and they can resonate on a little different level.

Heather 07:14

We notice things that other people simply don’t notice.

Kristina 07:18

That aren’t visible. So you get senses of people. Idealist children are very empathetic, as are the adults. Like adults will tell them things, because they’re really good listeners, and they’re very empathetic, and they feel the feelings of people around them.

Heather 07:38

They feel the energy around them, and that can manifest physically within them.

Kristina 07:44

Yeah. Lots of tummy aches for children. It could be that an Idealist child was at school and the teacher spoke in a stern way to another student, but it made the Idealist feel the feelings of discomfort that the student was feeling, of feeling the disappointment, or whatever the teacher was feeling. They pick all of that up. So they’re like this little feeling sponge. If there’s tension in the home, Idealists will feel it. They want harmony. They want people to get along. They will oftentimes put aside whatever it is that they want.

Heather 08:24

They will give too freely of themselves and their own desires.

Kristina 08:28

And because they believe so passionately in the potential of people and in growing people, they can be the individuals who end up in relationships where they’re not treated well because they believe in the best part of people.

Heather 08:44

So this goes back to that. I’m gonna say my husband’s notion at the beginning of how we just parent the children all the same. This is my Luke, and this is your Grace. These Idealist children, they needed to be taught some really specific skills to protect themselves. You talk about how Grace was really trying to grow the skill set when some girls were being unkind to her at school and just had all this empathy, but really no boundary with them.

Kristina 09:18

Oh, right. So my beautiful daughter was in first grade, and there was a little girl in her class who, unbeknownst to Grace, had shared with the other kids like, “Let’s not play with Grace today at recess,” Grace didn’t know anything about that. “Let’s run from her,” Right. So they went out to recess, and sure enough, the kids are all running away from Grace, and she just thinks they’re playing a game of chase, and she’s not very fast. So she doesn’t realize what’s happening here. Here I’ve just talked about how intuitive kids are, but she was in first grade and didn’t really understand what was happening, didn’t know, couldn’t imagine that there was any malicious thought, and they’re first graders. Was it malicious? I don’t know. When I found out about it, I was like, “Bring me the child.” Because somebody had really hurt my kid. So-

Heather 10:05

The one time I’d be allowed to cut through the unauthorized as if I was picking you up and we were going to get her.

Kristina 10:12

I would allow it then. That’s right, that’s right. That’s your “mama bear.” And your “mama bear” does lots of things you wouldn’t normally do. So Grace didn’t get it. So the little girl came to her and said, “We don’t want to play with you. I told everybody not to play with you, and so we were trying to run away from you.” Because Grace hadn’t really understood that. So Grace came home from school, and she’s at the table and she’s working on, you know, a piece of paper. She’s got her crayons out and her markers out and things like that. And I said, “Hey, whatcha up to?” And she said, “I’m making a card for this little girl,” let’s just call her, “Penelope.” “I’m making a card for Penelope.” I said, “Oh, that’s so nice.” And she said, “Yeah, she told the other kids not to play with me, and they all ran away from me. And so I’m thinking, mom, she must have a really sad heart, because why would you do that? So I just want to make her feel better.” And I’m thinking, “Make her feel better? I will make her feel something. And it is not better.” So Grace brought the card in, gave it to Penelope. Penelope looks at it and says, “This is garbage,” and throws it away. So what does Grace do? She needs to make another card. So we had to have conversations about how sometimes that is exactly what we want to do, right? Provide that empathy. There are other times that it’s okay to say that was that was her fault, right? It was unkind. And it doesn’t mean that it’s a bad person. Penelope is not a bad person, but whatever she was working out was unkind toward Grace.

Heather 11:47

A great moment to have Grace be aware that she can use her big voice and that child gets to feel how they need to feel about it, but the boundary that Grace is gonna set for herself is,”I don’t like it when you tell everybody to run away from me. Next time come talk to me if you don’t want to play with me.”

Kristina 12:11

Yep. So, those little Idealists, so empathetic, very authentic, they would not dream of misrepresenting themselves. They crave authenticity in others. They look for signs and symbols all over the place. Idealists tend to be the most spiritual. That doesn’t mean that they are necessarily the most religious.

Heather 12:35

Yes, they connect spiritually at a different level.

Kristina 12:39

Yep, and they seek deep, deep meaning in relationships and in the world around them. Idealists are about 15% of the population, so there are not a lot of them, right? And they know that they’re different, and they kind of like that they’re unique, but they go through life feeling misunderstood a lot, because they are so abstract, because they are such big thinkers, and because they feel so strongly. They may be in a family or in a room where nobody else is feeling it as strongly as they are, or the things they pick up about a person, that they sense from a person, nobody else senses. I remember being in a situation where I met somebody and my insides felt yucky, which is what I feel when I meet somebody who maybe has some motives that I don’t value or respect or somebody that diminishes other people. I don’t like that kind of thing. And I hadn’t really even met this person to interact with them, but I could sense it. Nobody else could sense it, but I could sense it. So you feel misunderstood. It’s like, “Yeah, this person, this is not a good fit. This is going to lead to trouble.” And people that aren’t Idealists are like, “What are you talking about? They must remind you of like a mean professor along the way, or something.” And it’s like, “Nope, I’ve learned to trust my intuition.” And that indeed did come to fruition, that that is who the person was.

Heather 14:19

And if people don’t have that skill. They don’t understand it. And we get dismissed a lot in that way, of like, “Oh, they just think…” and then nine months later it’s like, “Oh, imagine that! Huh.” And it’s not that we have any sort of ability to predict what could happen. But it is an awareness of something’s off there. We just notice things that other people don’t or get a sense of something. And that’s not just us. That’s just an Idealist characteristic that’s really strong within them.

Kristina 14:53

Idealists love working with people. They go into fields like we did. We’re therapists. They go into counseling. They go into these helping professions because they really believe in the growth and supporting the growth of other individuals. They tend to be pretty gifted in languages, both written and, you know, verbal communication. They’re good communicators, and it’s different than the other temperaments are. This is, I think, an interesting thing about Idealists: if they’re using a tool or some other item, they are less concerned about how they feel about it, and they are very concerned about how their use of that tool or that item impacts others. They are very aware of the things that they do and say and the impact it has on the people around them, very aware of that, and like we had said earlier, will just ignore their own desires or their own wishes in lieu of meeting the wish or desire of somebody else. And they feel very strongly in every direction. Idealists say things like, “That was hilarious.” It’s not “funny.” It’s “hilarious,” right? I wasn’t just “angry” or “mad.” I was “furious.” They have- they use intense language because they feel things so intensely.

Heather 16:18

So in a relationship, they tend to want a soulmate. And they tend to be very nurturing parents and inspirational leaders where they are typically.

Kristina 16:29

In relationships with a partner or a spouse, Guardians are looking for a help mate, because they like to be helpful. Artisans are looking for a play mate, not the Hugh Hefner kind, but like somebody that can have fun and be free and go on all their adventures. And Idealists are looking for a soul mate. They want that soul connection. It’s when I say to Vince, “I want to know you better. I want you to know me better, and for us to be closer.” He’s like, “I do not know what you are talking about, woman. We are as close as we can be. And I’m thinking, “No, I want that soul connection.” So Idealists are a unique little temperament. I say unique because there just aren’t as many of them, and they are acutely aware of the feelings and the energy of people around them-

Heather 17:21

in the room, from very young ages.

Kristina 17:26

So when you have an Idealist child, there are a number of things to be aware of. First of all, they are not being overly dramatic. They just feel it that intensely. Now you can have somebody that is overly dramatic, right? But especially Idealist children, they really feel it. I mean Grace, when we got a new car, the car that we had when she was born, the white car, she was so attached to that car that when we got a new car, she grieved that we didn’t have the white car anymore. It would never be the same. I mean, the music we’d listen to in the white car, even though it was exactly the same music that we listened to in the gray car, it just wasn’t going to be the same. So Idealist children form really close connections to things and to the people around them. Idealist children are, oh, this is a tricky thing. They’re the most likely to have an imaginary friend, because they have a very, very rich imagination and fantasy life. So they have imaginary friends and they become real to them. So Idealist children are the last to figure out the difference between reality and fantasy, so they can be accused of lying when they really aren’t. They don’t know that that’s not real because it’s so real to them. Guardians aren’t gonna lie because it’s not the right thing to do. Can

Heather 18:59

Can I give an example? So I’m thinking of Zack’s best friend for many years. Still is to this day, he was just at our house on Saturday, darling, darling boy. My best friend from high school, her son. They grew up together. They just have had a ball. And it has been so much fun watching those two come into the world, really two months apart, and grow all the way up through young adulthood. Now they’ll be in each other’s weddings. This is just what their life has been like. This young man is an Idealist, and he is just a sweetheart. My son is a Guardian. And I remember dropping Zack off to play with him. And they were probably ten or eleven, and Zack kind of like shrinking down in the passenger seat, and me saying, “Honey, what’s the matter? Are you excited to play?” He’s like, “Yeah, he’s wearing this cape again.” And he could see him behind the tree, and he had his cape on. And I said, “Oh.” And he’s like, “You know, he still likes to play like that, and I would rather like ride quads, or our bikes…” and he just was in that imaginary land longer. And he was a child in the second grade, at parent teacher conferences, had convinced his teacher he had a whole other family, like that they lived on the shores of Lake Michigan. That this was his other family. He had all of these siblings. The teacher was like, “So like, are you divorced? Are you two like, who lives in the home on Lake Michigan?” And his parents were like, “What?” And the teacher was like, “You know, like with the other kids? And they were like “What?” And then it came out that he had created this whole other family and this whole other house with all of these siblings. I mean, he wasn’t lying, per se. There’s an argument. Should he have maybe known better at seven or eight years old, but it was what he created based on who he is, and he wasn’t doing it with the intention of, “Oh, I’m gonna string my teachers along and tell them these big lies.” That wasn’t it at all. He had, if anything, brought them into his world that he had created probably much because he felt safe and loved. And there’s the difference. It can feel very much like there’s just a lot of feelings, and that there’s a lot and all that doesn’t need to be such a big deal. You’re making that such a big deal. Or why did you tell your teacher that? And really, it’s just these beautiful lands, fairytale lands, that they can create and will bring you into. And I would argue that he loved his teachers and brought them into his world.

Kristina 21:57

Yep, and it wasn’t because he had an unhappy home. He wasn’t creating something-

Heather 22:02

Or that didn’t lie and trick them. There was no ill intent whatsoever.

Kristina 22:08

The thing an Idealist will lie about, quote, unquote “lie.” Well, this is, really, is to save somebody from harm or from punishment. They just want everybody to have this harmony. So they may say things. They’re very diplomatic. They may say things to change the mood or the trajectory of an exchange to make everybody happy. They may do that-

Heather 22:34

Soften the blow. Bring the humor. Lighten things up.

Kristina 22:38

Yep. So my daughter Grace, the Idealist. Idealists tend to be very self-aware, because they have that intuition, and they’re connected so well to their feelings. If we’re reading a book together, or if we’re going to watch a movie, she will say, sometimes, “I just don’t want to feel those feelings right now.” I mean, we don’t go to a movie that she’s not sobbing at, sobbing at, because she connects so much with others, real or not. So she can say, “I just don’t want to feel those feelings right now. II can’t go that deep. I can’t do it.” And Idealists, many times, carry the feelings of other people, and you need to work as you get older and figuring out how to separate yourself from the feelings of everybody around you. For Idealist children, more than any other temperament, they have to know that they are loved unconditionally and that their parents accept them for who they are, for how they feel, for how they view the world. That’s really, really important to the Idealist child. If you are upset with an Idealist child, you can talk to them about it. But if you raise your voice, if you get punitive in, you know, how you’re going to punish or discipline a child, that deeply affects the heart of an Idealist, because there’s this disconnect right now. It’s like “me against you,” and they don’t like that at all. Idealists like cooperative games. They don’t prefer to be real competitive about things. It’s not that they don’t like it when they win, but they aren’t the kids that are, you know, really like, “Oh, I want to, like, dang, I, you know, sorry I lost.” They’re not those kids. They’re much more about the experience and have camaraderie. Camaraderie in the moment. So Idealists, especially young ones, need some protecting. They need protecting from the others in the world of different temperaments who just don’t understand how tender those little hearts are.

Heather 24:54

My Luke is an Idealist, and I think about him going through his first breakup. And they aren’t ever going to impose into your time. I’m his mother. He knows that I love him dearly and that I would set anything aside for him, and yet he like, “Is she busy? Is she doing-“ He’s also the kid that when he’d be home sick from school, “Honey, what sounds good to you? Is there something that you’d like me to make you?” “What sounds good to you, mom?” “Okay, Luke? You’re the one with the tummy ache. Like what sounds good to you?” “ Is a grilled cheese too much work?” I’m like, “Son. Yeah, for your birthday, I make you homemade key lime pie, where I, like, legitimately squeeze the limes and, like, what do they call that? When you, like, grate the-

Kristina 25:48

The zest, the zest-

Heather 25:50

Like I zest the key limes and, like, grilled cheese, it’s buttered bread with cheese that melts. It’s not a big ask. So it’s that type of thing where you need, as a parent, when you have an Idealist child, to also key into behavioral shifts in them. Like, what’s doing? Because they aren’t going to impose on anyone. And that’s part of that, just sacrificing too much of themselves for harmony. So, when Luke peaks in my bedroom, and I’m still in bed on a Saturday morning. And it’s odd for him to ever get up before me, especially on a weekend. And he peeks in, which, 17 year old boys don’t peek in on their mother’s bedrooms often. So I’m like, “Okay, this is weird.” And I say, “Luke, I’m awake. What’s up?” And then he comes in and shares that, you know, he and his girlfriend broke up. And then we go into that more. But if I hadn’t taken that extra step to inquire about- All he did was peek in the room.

Kristina 27:01

Right. And to invite him in-

Heather 27:03

Yes, and say, you know, “Come hang out with me.” So, you know, it’s just you gotta “chase the why”

Kristina 27:11

Yeah. And those Idealists, they don’t want to impose on people.

Heather 27:15

No. Absolutely. Kristina, let’s go back to the moving day analogy and walk through. I said Guardians are going to show up. Rain or shine, the Guardians are going to be there. They’re going to help you move. They’re going to be in it. They’re going to be hauling, loading, moving the couch by themselves, figuring it out. Through the smallest doorway, that’s the Guardians. They figure it out. They show up. There they are, no matter what. The Artisans, on the other hand, if it’s a nice day, they’re going to be at the beach. If it’s a rainy day, they’re going to be like, “no.”

Kristina 28:00

Well, they probably forgot that it was even that day. And if they do come, they’ll come, like, four hours late and bring the beer, and it’s like, “Hey, Oh, you guys are all done!”

Heather 28:12

“Yeah, we’re almost done. Last couch just got loaded.” “Sweet.”

Kristina 28:15

But when they do show up, if they show up, it’s gonna be- The party starts. It’ll be a whole lot more fun. And we’re gonna be laughing. So maybe showing up late in the day isn’t such a bad thing. They can bring the energy.

Heather 28:25

And the Idealists, what are the Idealists doing?

Kristina 28:29

The Idealists are going to-they’re going to show up because they said they were going to do it, and they want to follow through on that, but they’re going to be talking about what the experience is like. So what does this move mean to you? What are the things that you’re going to always remember about this house? This house has so many memories in it. And they may be telling stories about, “Oh, I’ll never forget when we sat in your kitchen and we were having tea and you broke that cup. Remember? Oh yeah, that was really hard. I know you loved that cup.” They are going to be talking about the feelings of the experience and the meaning that it has, about where you’re leaving and where you’re going. So there’s going to be lots of conversation. They are not the like, box it and lug it. Those are your Guardians who are like, box it up and let’s go. The Idealists, when packing to move, everything has meaning. So hard to let anything go-

Heather 29:29

So hard to leave this behind. And we have to go dig up those landscape pavers with the kids’ hands-

Kristina 29:37

Oh, of course. How could you leave that? I need to get the whole sidewalk up, because we have Grace’s hands in the sidewalk.

Heather 29:45

I’m not helping you move ever.

Kristina 29:48

I don’t think we possibly could, because of so much stuff. So yeah, Idealists are more

connected into that meaning and the feelings behind it. And then we have our final

temperament type, and those are the Rationals. So Rationals make up about 10% of the

population, so they aren’t nearly as common as those Guardians. They’re everywhere, lots of

Artisans, some Idealists, and then those precious Rationals. So, on moving day, the Rational

will come and already have an entire system designed for how to do this the most effectively

and the most efficiently. And they know exactly how those things need to go.

Heather 30:30

They have mapped the U haul. Yes, they know how large it is. They have a diagram. The

couch is going here. The boxes will go here.

Kristina 30:38

Yep, this is how we need to pack it to be the most efficient that we can. This is the system

we’re going to use for getting things out of the house and into the moving van. And they will

be quite disappointed if you haven’t labeled every box with what it contains and where it’s going.

Heather 30:54

And they are right. I mean, they’re right, and The Guardian is going to be like, “Where

did you come from?”

Kristina 31:04

Yeah. So here are some words that describe those precious Rationals. They are calm. They are

innovative. They’re ingenious, extremely logical, very curious. They pride themselves on their

independence. They are strategic and pragmatic, and they love a system. So Rationals are

very much the people that live in their head. They, in looking for a mate, we said this before,

or a co-parent, or somebody to be in a relationship with, they’re looking for a mind mate.

Heather 31:46

They need somebody to match their level of intelligence, and even more than that, to

challenge them and to be able to engage at their level, because they like to debate and solve

problems. And they need somebody that can go that distance with them, right?

Kristina 32:07

Yep, they are very much activated and stimulated by intellectual debate. That’s what they’re

looking for. So they want that mind mate. They are driven by logic. If it is not logical, they will

not do it. Not logical. Why would I do that? Their bedroom? Forget it. If you’ve got a Rational

kid or partner, they’re not making the bed. The Guardians are making the bed because you’re

supposed to make the bed, and it doesn’t matter that I’m going to get right back in it tonight.

Why am I making it and putting the pillows on? Because I’m supposed to. Rationals are like,

“Why in the world would you have a decorative pillow? Right? You use a pillow, and we don’t

need the decorative ones, and we’re getting right back in that bed tonight. So I’m not making

that bed.” Rationals do not come into the world with much empathy.

Heather 33:03

No, they come into the world with very little and probably need to be taught what they do

Have. They will come in to the moving day and say, “Why in the world did you

load that in first? That is the stupidest way to load a truck ever.”

Kristina 33:21

Yep. And they’ll just say it.

Heather 33:25

And the Guardians will be like, “Thanks for coming.” The Artisans, they’ll be like, “This is why

I am at the beach.”

Kristina 33:29

And the Idealists tell someone crying in the corner, going, too much tension, right?

“Can’t we all just get along?”

Heather 33:38

I’ll run and talk. “They didn’t mean that. Let me go. I’ll go move it.”

Kristina 33:41

So Rationals, like Idealists, think about things in big pictures. No bounds on their thinking.

They’re very creative in coming up with new things. They’re very inventive. They pride

themselves on their knowledge, and they’re always seeking knowledge, but that logic is what

drives decisions. They like spreadsheets. They like doing their research. Whatever it is that

they’re doing, they want to be extremely good at it, and are always seeking to learn more. So

they really pride themselves, I mean, strong willed and in being, you know, again,

independent

Heather

That’s achievement to them.

Kristina

Right. So they’re not driven by those feelings. So an Idealist connected to a Rational, the

Idealist who is just really connected to the feelings, they in the Rational who’s like,

Don’t doesn’t mean nothing to me.

Heather 34:43

Well, that gets really tricky. If you have an Idealist parent who’s always, “How are you? Would

you? How does that feel to you?” And you have a Rational child, they are just going to feel

smothered up by things that do not matter to them, or that they even understand. But then if

you flip it and you have the Rational parent who has the Idealist child, the risk there is that

they’re just going to be telling them constantly that all those feelings are ridiculous and have

no meaning, right?

Kristina 35:16

Right. So Rational children

Heather 35:18

Oh, they say harsh. They can say very harsh things.

Kristina 35:22

They ask a lot of pointed questions. And if you say to a Rational child, “Do it because I said

so,” what you have just told them without realizing it is that you have no idea, Rationals

respect knowledge. They do not respect positional authority.

Heather 35:47

Which is really tricky for Rationals in school. I remember years ago, this child was

probably in middle or high school now, yeah, but a parent coming to one of our classes

regarding their preschooler, because they had a preschooler, but they also had a first grade

child. And do you remember this? We did the temperament series, and she said, “I’m

gonna buy the books that you recommended. And my son has been struggling behaviorally,

and his teachers think he is so disrespectful.” And she’s like, “He is a good boy, but there is

something different. There’s something different about him, and I’ve never been able to really

articulate it, and now I can articulate it. He’s is a Rational and he’s so misunderstood.” But do

you remember that he had said to his teacher, “Why in the world would I write with my pencil

when I can tell you with my mouth?” In first grade. And they say it like you are the

dumbest person in the whole wide world. Like, “Have you not thought that?” Like, stupidest

request. So there’s all this bravado, because they in their mind, even first grade, six year

old mind, “my teacher is an idiot and is asking me to write something down when I could just

tell her.

Kristina 37:09

And it’s much more efficient for me to just tell her.”

Heather 37:13

And there’s such a difference from “That’s disrespectful Go to the principal’s office” or “You

need to do it, because that’s what the direction is from, “Oh, I hadn’t thought of it like that,”

right? “Think of it this way. How many kids are in here? Oh, 23 I wonder how long it would

take for all of them to tell me with their mouth. Oh, right.” And all of a sudden we’re writing it

down.

Kristina 37:41

But if the teacher had said “It’s because I said so”, the child thinks “You got no idea what

you’re doing,” and they lose respect. It’s like, well –

Heather 37:51

Or they’re in the principal’s office because the teacher said, “I told you to write that down, right?-

Kristina 37:55

And you didn’t. So there you go. I remember when I worked at a middle school and I mean, I

love them all right, because I’m an Idealist, I love them all, but those little Rationals, because

they are so misunderstood

Heather 38:11

And they’re brilliant-

Kristina 38:12

Oh my gosh, I’m always like, “Remember me someday when you invent the next wonderful

thing!” So we were in middle school, and I had this Rational child, and he had taken a science

test, and after the science test, he went to go hand it in, and he kind of flips it on the

teacher’s desk and says, “Worst test ever written,” to the teacher. Now the teacher could

respond, that’s totally say she had written the test, right? And so

there are lots of ways that she could respond, but she knew that he was a Rational child,

because we had that understanding with the staff that I was working with of trying to really better understand children by understanding their temperament. So instead of saying, “Go to the office” or whatever else, responding in that way, she said to him, ”Didn’t love the way you just said that to me, but make it better. Take the test and make it better.” And he did. He wrote questions that were better questions than the original test. So he was right. The test could be improved. But the way he said it was with, you know, kind of this disdain, right? Because, like, why would anybody write a test like that?

Heather 39:31

And all of this authority, yeah, worst test written.

Kristina 39:35

Yeah, the same kid that I remember going to the Spanish teacher and saying, “Yep, he’s not going to do one lick of work in here. So you can just, you know, that horse is dead, you can quit kicking it. Can hop on off,” because for what he wanted to do in his life, he needed Mandarin. He did not need Spanish, so it was illogical for him to spend any time or energy learning this language that he’ll never need. He wanted to invest in learning Mandarin because he knew what he wanted to do and how he wanted to do it already in middle school. And he knew what he’d need to get there. So a Rational individual is driven by logic. They pride their own knowledge and are always seeking to understand that. They want to understand how the world works. Many times, Rational individuals go into engineering or go into technology. They are creative and develop their own companies, and they’re just absolutely remarkable. But for Rationals, because of their temperament, they may look like they’re neurodivergent and that they may be on, like the autism spectrum-

Heather 40:47

It’s the low empathy. Could be the lack of social engagement, because they just don’t value that in their same way, very independent Idealist or the Guardians, and they’re so driven by logic, right? And so they can appear very fixated on certain things.

Kristina 41:02

So we’re not saying that if you’re a Rational, you’re neurodivergent. What we’re saying is that some of the characteristics of the temp overlap, can look like

Heather 41:14

And you can be misdiagnosed when really you just are a Rational temperament. This is my dad. My dad as a Rational and thinks it is wildly ridiculous that I can buy a vehicle and I haven’t driven it and I haven’t done the research. I just know what I want. I have these colors that would be acceptable and that I could possibly purchase something that is such a large purchase without never having laid eyes on it, never having sat on it. He just thinks that that’s stupid. I mean, I was going to try to make it nicer. He thinks it’s stupid is really the root of it.

Kristina 41:54

So, yes, yeah, thanks, Dad. So those Rationales, right, a rule needs to make sense to them, for them to follow it. If it doesn’t make sense, they’re not going to follow it, like you had said earlier, about like, “Why would I write it down? If I can say it with my mouth?” If you are able to explain to a Rational why there’s this rule or why they need to do it this way, then they’ll happily accept it.

Heather

Yeah, if they can see the logic.

Kristina

Yes, because it has to be logical.

Heather 42:27

If it’s just because you’re making me right, you better get better at defending your right-

Kristina 42:33

Because now, holy cow, I’m in charge. I’m the smartest one in the room, right? And they may be very young, because none of these are-

Heather 42:41

That is one of the things with Rationals, there is an air that they’re perceived as being arrogant. Not team players.

Kristina 42:53

Yep, like Idealists use abstract language because they think such big thought-

Heather 43:02

But unlike Idealists, they’re not trying to bring people together. And they’re not trying to win anybody over. It’s more “This is how it is, period.” There’s that different feeling.

Kristina 43:15

“This makes the most logical sense.” So Idealists need to make a big decision. I advise them to make it in their mind and then live with that decision for a couple days and then choose the other so let’s say their kids are trying to figure out, do I go to U of M, or do I go to Michigan State? And they really don’t know where they want to go. And so it’s like, so just make the decision, I’m going to U of M and live with that. Few days later, live with I’m going to Michigan State. One of them will feel more comfortable than the other, and that’s how Idealists make their decisions. There might be a pro con list where the cons are a mile long, and there’s one Pro, but that Idealist will look at it and say, but it feels like the right thing to do. The Rational would look at them like they had lost their minds, because the data shows this is the better choice. They’re driven by that logic and that data. They love the research. That’s how the Rationals make their decisions,

Heather 44:25

And Idealists consider how it impacts others.

Kristina 44:29

Right. Rationals don’t care.

Heather 44:32

No. Right. Don’t care.

Kristina 44:32

The right decision for them. So that’s what they’re doing moving forward. If you have a child who’s a Rational, I also will talk to parents and say, “Hey, it’s probably a great idea to head over to a little resale shop and buy like a toaster for $2 and bring it home.” Like that’s Christmas to your Rational, because they can take it apart and they can put it back together, and it doesn’t matter.

Heather 44:58

Disable the electrical cord. We don’t want them putting it back together and burning, right?

Kristina 45:02

It might never toast again. But they want to learn how things are made. Yeah, and they work, so they’re going to take apart the toaster-

Heather 45:12

Or their bunk beds, right? Or like they’re going to find stuff within the home to take apart. You might as well let it be stuff you don’t mind if they take apart or if it ever works again.

Kristina 45:19

Yep. And they want to be intellectually stimulated, so we’re talking museums and we’re talking books. They love to have books read to them that are way above their reading level, because although they may not be able to read it yet, they are able to hold those concepts and those ideas, and they seek that now, and they seek that knowledge. So if you have a Rational child, they love to debate and argue, and that can be frustrating to the adult. They aren’t debating or arguing for the sake of arguing or for the sake of being disrespectful. It’s like they’re honing a skill of finding, like, is there a loophole here? They love to find a loophole. If you thought you had no loopholes, bring a Rational in, because they’re going to be like, whoop. Right here, right here, right here. They can see those things, they make outstanding lawyers, because they can view things from different angles.

Heather 46:27

And argue big time. And they don’t get caught up in all the feelings.

Kristina 46:31

Nope. no. And they do their research so many times they know what they’re talking about, even if they don’t, they will sound like they do. So I have a brother who’s a Rational, and if I ask a question, I remember we used to travel, and you do travel down the road, and there would be places that you would see these, like three crosses just along the highway, big crosses. One would be gold, and then there were two that were like, gray or silver. I always wondered what those were about. And I remember asking one time, like, “Do you know what those are about?” And there’s this answer that sounds very logical and makes all kinds of sense, but I’ve learned to say, “Do you know that?” Or what they’ll say is “No, but it’s logical.” Okay, but it might not be the case at all, but it’s like, but “That’s logical.” Like, okay, just need to know, because you’re speaking like you’re an authority.

Heather 47:20

And we live in this super logical world. Yeah, kind of feels not so logical quite often.

Kristina 47:30

Yeah. So you’re the one that taught me about writing a letter to my child’s teacher before the year started. When I did this all the time, when she was younger, about who she is, how she’s motivated. You know, things that you need to be aware of. It’s very important that she knows her teacher likes her for Grace. It’s very important to her. She learns better when she believes that you really care about her. Yeah. Rationals? Does not matter. They don’t care if you like them or not. Irrelevant.

Heather 48:00

No. But you better know that the science you are teaching is actual science, because they will call you out and then heckle you.

Kristina 48:09

Yes. So, you know, I had said that Idealist children need some protecting. So do the Rational children, because there are so few of them, people don’t really know what to do with a Rational child. So giving them that information before they start working with them, talking about like, yes, put them on a special project. If they ask a question, say, “I think you should go research that tell me what you’ve learned.” And really challenging them to expand their knowledge base is going to engage and excite a Rational child.

Heather 48:45

Temperament is a really big concept. There’s a lot to it. We have been working within temperament theory for twenty years plus, really, and I feel like I still learn something. I hear something different. It’s-I’m reminded of things that I maybe had not kept at the forefront. And it is such a powerful way to have a better view and understanding of your own self, ourselves as parents, if you’re parenting alongside another individual that understanding of how the two of you interact as parents and lead your kids, but also how we look at each of our children individually and have a deeper knowledge of who they are at their core and why they behave in Many of the ways that they do. It just helps us have more empathy. It helps increase our understanding, which then increases our joy and our ability to be able to connect to, to motivate, to respond to, to pause and remind ourselves, oh, I too. Tend to react this way, but they tend to see things this way. It’s a deeper understanding. And what we know is knowledge is power, and if we can use that knowledge in our homes, with our children, with our spouses, man, does it make the journey so much more enjoyable? Yeah.

Kristina 50:20

And now you know who to call if you’re moving right?

Heather 50:23

Exactly. It’s not Ghostbusters, it’s the Guardian That’s right. Call those Guardians.

Kristina 50:35

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood. I’m Kristina-

Heather 50:41

And I’m Heather, and we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

Kristina 50:46

Until next time-

Heather and Kristina 50:47

See you on the trails.

Kristina 50:52

Heather 51:03

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Kristina 51:11

Since 2000, The ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

Heather 51:23

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people, land, and nature to learn more and get involved. Go to www.ODCnetwork.org.

Show Notes

Episode 3: Temperament Theory As A Parenting Tool, Part 1

SUMMARY

Guardians (approximately 45% of the population) are factual, reliable, and duty-bound, valuing law and order. They are often responsible parents and leaders but can be misperceived as pessimistic or self-righteous.

Artisans (approximately 30% of the population) are optimistic, daring, and adaptable, valuing freedom and impact. They are creative and spontaneous but may struggle with rules and planning.

Understanding temperament allows parents to recognize and appreciate the innate differences in how their children perceive the world and interact with it.

Rather than expecting all children to respond the same way, parents can adjust their communication, discipline, and expectations to align with each child’s natural tendencies.

For example, with a Guardian child who values structure and rules, a parent can provide clear expectations and routines. With an Artisan child who craves freedom and spontaneity, the parent can find ways to channel that energy into safe, creative outlets.

“It helps us understand that these characteristics go along with a certain temperament type, and that that is hard-wired. Like that is who they were wired to be as they came in. And it’s important for us to say – and there are some temperaments that, by nature, just want to be the best temperament and have the best one. There are wonderful things about all of the temperament types. There are also growth areas for all of the temperament types.”

“And when we know those things, particularly about our children and our spouse if we have one, or our co-parent…it really helps smooth out so many things and just brings a greater, much, much broader lens of understanding to what maybe trips us up…why we might keep rubbing up and being frustrated by the same types of issues, and why it seems like someone continues to do this thing, even though we voiced it drives us crazy. It’s like, well, that that could very well be that that’s just how they’re wired and what feels very natural to them to do. And so when we broaden our understanding of those things, it can bring a lot more joy.”

Temperament theory helps parents avoid frustration by understanding why certain approaches may work well with one child but not another.

Instead of trying to force a child to be someone they’re not, parents can lean into the child’s strengths and find ways to support their growth.

By recognizing each child’s temperament, parents can better meet their unique emotional and developmental needs. This fosters stronger parent-child connections and helps children feel understood and accepted for who they are.

Overall, tailoring parenting strategies to temperament leads to more effective communication, reduced conflict, and a deeper appreciation for the diversity within a family. It empowers parents to bring out the best in each of their children.

What are the key characteristics of Guardian and Artisan temperaments, and how do they differ in their approach to parenting?

Guardians:
– Factual, reliable, dependable, and concerned with duty and responsibility
– Believe in law, order, and following rules without question
– Value traditions, security, and a strong sense of justice and fairness
– Often responsible parents and leaders, they can tend to be pessimistic and can be misperceived as self-righteous.

Artisans:
– Optimistic, daring, flexible, and impulsive
– Seek stimulation, freedom, and making a big impact
– Spontaneous, playful, and the “life of the party”
– Dislike rules and restrictions, preferring to trust their impulses

In terms of parenting, Guardians tend to value obedience and expect their children to follow rules simply because they are rules. They provide a lot of structure and predictability. Artisan parents, on the other hand, have a more relaxed approach and allow for more freedom and spontaneity. They may struggle with providing the structure that Guardians find so important. The key is for parents to understand and appreciate the differences in temperament to avoid frustration and better meet the needs of their children.

What practical strategies can parents use to balance the needs of children with different temperaments, such as Guardians and Artisans?

For Guardian children:
– Provide clear structure, rules, and expectations. Guardians thrive on predictability.
– Emphasize the importance of responsibility and duty. Assign them chores and tasks to help the family.
– Validate their need for security and respect for authority. Guardian children find comfort in knowing the rules and typically willingly follow rules without question.

For Artisan children:
– Allow for more freedom and flexibility in their activities and schedule. Don’t overly restrict their spontaneity.
– Provide outlets for their need for adventure and risk-taking, like sports or creative hobbies, but ensure safety precautions.
– Help them understand how their actions impact others, but avoid stifling their natural exuberance.

For the whole family:
– Communicate openly and respect each child’s specific needs

– Model flexibility and compromise. Artisans can learn from Guardians’ sense of responsibility, while Guardians can learn to become more flexible in their approach.
– Establish family traditions and rituals that provide structure, but leave room for Artisan spontaneity and choice.
– Praise each child’s unique strengths and help them appreciate differences within the family.

The key is finding a balance that respects each child’s inborn temperament while also encouraging growth and adaptability. With understanding and patience, parents can create a harmonious environment for all temperaments.

Further Reading :

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

The Power of Play:

Attachment and Connection:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Episode 3: Temperament Theory As A Parenting Tool, Part 1

Kristina 00:00

In this episode, we’ll introduce you to David Keirsey’s temperament theory, a theory based on observable human traits, like how we make decisions, what information we notice, how we communicate, and characteristic attitudes, values and strengths

Heather 00:14

From the day they’re born. Our children are individuals with distinct preferences and unique ways of being in the world, interacting with others. As parents, understanding our child’s temperament helps us to accommodate their needs and also challenge them to learn flexibility and additional ways of responding.

Kristina 00:35

We’ll share our experiences using temperament theory as a parenting tool, and begin by focusing on two of the four temperaments, Guardians and Artisans. Understanding these temperaments can help us improve our parenting by allowing us to tailor our approach to each unique child’s needs.

Heather 00:53

We’ll have fun exploring how this tool can enhance communication, reduce frustration, and help us better understand and support ourselves and our children. Welcome to Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood,

Kristina 01:09

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

Heather 01:22

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re Support Service Directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

Kristina 01:44

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

Heather 01:50

Are you ready?

Kristina 01:51

Let’s hit the trails.

Heather 01:56

We were in private practice together as psychotherapists. We worked with children and families, and this was something that we used with families routinely, because it is such powerful information, and it really helps us understand that all humans come into the world wired a specific way with a specific sort of reaction to various stimuli. So what we’ll talk about think people oftentimes confuse temperament and personality, and they think that your temperament is your personality, and actually your temperament is one component of your personality, the personality the other piece is your character. So people will often say to us, “Well, I feel like I can’t really determine my temperament, because it’s changed over time.” That’s your character. Your character is developed based on your value system, your what you’re taught, how you live, your life experiences, your traditions, all of those things make up your character.

Kristina 03:03

Right.

Heather 03:04

And character is evolving. That is your nurture. So if we can think about our personality as there’s this nature component and there’s a nurture component, right?

Kristina 03:16

Nature is the temperament.

Heather 03:18

Temperament is your nature. Yes. So, the key takeaways: our character develops over time.

Kristina 03:19

So the thing with temperament, like you had said, Heather, you’re born with it, and you may develop skills over your lifetime to help strengthen areas that may be weaker for you within your temperament, or areas that may trip you up. That’s all true. But your core temperament remains the same. I’m an extrovert, right? And I will always be an extrovert. That’s a part of my temperament. But as I’ve gotten older, there are times that I think, “But, but am I? I think I’m becoming an introvert,” and then I recognize I’m not becoming an introvert. I’m just tired. I’m just tired. I’m a tired extrovert. So it’s not that my temperament has changed, it’s that over your lifetime, some of those experiences can be different based on where you are, who you are, and where you are in your life. But I’m still an extrovert. Yes.

Heather 04:19

You’re not born with your character. It emerges based on your life experiences, how you’re raised. There’s that whole piece. And then the other piece is the temperament, which is not easily changed. It is inborn, and that those two things together make up your unique personality-and unique indeed they are. And I mean, for me, I have three kids. They have been raised in the same home with the same parents, and whiletwo of them have the same temperament, they’re wildly similar. And it’s my oldest and my youngest. So when you think about birth order, a lot of times, we’ll hear, “Well, isn’t that more of a birth order thing? Likethe oldest child is the dutiful, more responsible?” Maybe, but more that’s dependent on your temperament.

Kristina 04:32

Absolutely

Heather 04:46

And who you are within that temperament and what characteristics you were naturally born with.

Kristina 05:18

Right. So that character, again, when you think about like firstborn and last if a family with multiple children, yes, the parents are typically more relaxed when we get to the last one, right?

Heather 05:24

No doubt-

Kristina 05:25

And so they “get away with a murder.” Whether or not that was their temperament that certainly is becoming part of their character, right? Which shows up in their personality.

Heather 05:41

Yes, and I have “the bookends,” I call them. So I’ve got, well, we’ll talk about Guardians in a minute here. That is one of the temperament types. I’ve got these two little Guardians. The oldest is a Guardian, and theyoungest is a Guardian. And I’ve got the sweet little Idealist in the middle. But those Guardians, still, there’sseven years between them. One was the oldest, and, you know, had a good amount of time with my husband and I before he had siblings. The other one never knew a life without siblings.

Kristina 06:10

Right-

Heather 06:10

But who they are at their core is still so similar. And we say all the time, “Oh yeah, Ava is a female Zack.”That’s who she is. They just are so similar in those ways, because they carry the same temperament.

Kristina 06:24

Today we’re going to go over this overview of the four main types of temperament. We’ll take deep dives down the road somewhere. But we talk about temperament a lot. We refer to it frequently, because it affects everything we do: how we view the world, how we interact with the world. So we wanted to give you all kind of this overview look at: What is this thing called temperament? What are the four main types? Why in the world does it matter?

Heather 06:52

Why in the world does it matter? And the short answer on that is: it’s the one thing I think that we have consistently heard from people that “this has helped me.” I think, after a parenting class, we had a dad say, “You just explained my whole entire teenage years in like one hour.”

Kristina 07:10

We have taught this for years in parenting classes that we offer. And it’s a really fun one, because there are lots of elbows going into like-

Heather 07:19

And eyebrows

Kristina 07:20

Or you see somebody mouth “your mother,” right?

Heather 07:24

Yeah, yeah. There’s a lot of awarenesses being had.

Kristina 07:27

And every time we’ll comment afterwards like, “Oh, now I know why my partner has such a hard time making a decision.” Like, yes! That answers some of those questions. And one of the beautiful things I really like about it is that we have a tendency to want people to be like us, right? View the world like us, because it just makes sense. It’s the way I view the world. So why is that not the way everyone views the world? And we do that to our children as well. We want them to be little mini me’s, and so we try to force them-

Heather 08:07

Well, an example would be, if we have a really extroverted parent who has an even slightly introverted child, they think, “Oh, they’re missing out. They are missing out. They are not going to experience the things that I got to experience.” And the answer is: perhaps not. They also have very different needs.

Kristina 08:29

As much as I know about temperament, and I’ve been doing this for decades, I still looked at my husband, who’s an introvert, I’m an extrovert. When we would go to family reunions, which I used to call “vacation,” and he said, “A family reunion is not a vacation.” But we’d go, and I’d be so excited to see my family and and catch up with everyone. And we would not be there, but a minute or two – now that’s an exaggeration, maybe 30 minutes – and all of a sudden I think, “Where’s Vince? Where’d he go? Is Vince here? Where is he?” And I’d find him in our bedroom like reading a magazine, and I’m thinking, “What is wrong with you?” Like I remember saying to him, “Are you ill? I mean, all of the people are out there –

Heather 09:19

There is a party out there, man, what are you doing?

Kristina 09:22

Yes! And you’re in here reading a magazine? Like what the world?! And you can tend to view people who are not like you as kind of broken. It was like there’s something wrong with you that you’re in here instead of out there. There’s nothing wrong with him. He’s an introvert. I’m an extrovert. We get our energy very differently. So understanding temperament, for me, it allows me to appreciate other people, how they view the world, how they interact with the world, instead of thinking, “Oh, they’re kind of messed up. They’re a little bit broken.”

Heather 09:57

Well and for our children, it helps us understand that these characteristics go along with a certain temperament type, and that that is hardwired. Like that is who they were wired to be as they came in. And it’s important for us to say – and there are some temperaments that, by nature, just want to be the best temperament and have the best one. There are wonderful things about all of the temperament types. There are also growth areas for all of the temperament types. And when we know those things, particularly about our children and our spouse if we have one, or our coparent, it really helps smooth out so many things and just brings a greater, much, much broader lens of understanding to what maybe trips us up, why we might keep rubbing up and being frustrated by the same types of issues, and why it seems like someone continues to do this thing, even though we voiced it drives us crazy. It’s like, well, that that could very well be that that’s just how they’re wired and what feels very natural to them to do. And so when we broaden our understanding of those things, it can bring a lot more joy to the home, to the workplace…

Kristina 11:20

It can. I was just gonna say that Heather. I was gonna say the same thing about how it infuses joy back into this parenting journey. Because once you have an idea of your temperament and the temperament of your children, you parent differently.

Heather 11:38

Absolutely.

Kristina 11:39

Because if my child is a different temperament than I am, the things that motivate me will not be the things that motivate my child. The things that excite me will not be the things that excite my child. And so I will discipline differently depending on the temperament of the child. You receive things so differently because it’s like, “Oh, I know why you said it to me like that.”

Heather 12:02

And for me and my household, my husband and I are different temperaments, and he’s a Guardian, and we’re going to talk about what that means to be a Guardian, but he had a really hard time. For me, it just felt natural that we would parent each child based on who they were, and that just, I think, with my training and just the temperament that I am, felt natural that, of course, we just respond to each child individually. Whereas my husband viewed it as: we just treat them all the same, right? Of course, we do. It has to be fair. And why would we parent them- That’s not fair. So fairness is a really strong Guardian trait, and we had to really talk about: actually, it’s a much richer experience if we can know who we are, like you had said, as people, and then also know who our children are wired to be. Then we can have such a deeper understanding and know what motivates and know what really shuts them down, and know what we need to grow in ourselves and what we need to grow in them. And that was not an easy grasping for him. He didn’t immediately buy into that theory, because of who he is. And then, when he sat and looked at his own temperament, he was like, “Oh.” And he could see himself in it. And that’s the crazy stuff. When you read the description, it’s like, “Oh yeah, that is me. Yes, that is me.

Kristina 13:41

Yep.”

Heather 13:56

So should we talk about Guardians?

Kristina 13:59

Oh I’m so excited about it. I just want to give, sorry, a little more background. This is me, part of who I am. So we’re going to talk about temperament theory, and we’re going to specifically talk about Keirsey and temperament theory based on the work of Dr. Keirsey. His work is very closely aligned with the Myers- Briggs Personality Sorter. And so some of the language is the same. I really like Keirsey. It’s the one that we’ve used for years and years and years-

Heather 14:28

Because that’s what we’ve been trained at-

Kristina 14:30

Certainly. And I’ve seen it play out over and over and over and over again.

Heather 14:35

We’ve had a really high accuracy-

Kristina 14:38

Yeah. And it’s just been incredibly helpful.

Heather 14:40

Absolutely-

Kristina 14:41

That’s what we’ll talk about, because we want to understand people and the differences in people. So let’s get started.

Heather 14:47

Okay, let’s get started. Guardians are almost half of our American population, and they make up over half of the population in my personal home.

Kristina 15:02

Yep. Which would be reflective of the American population.

Heather 15:06

The national average. So 45% of our population are Guardians. And what does it mean to be a Guardian? Let’s talk about just some descriptive words for them, as I think of my husband, my oldest son and my youngest child, who is my daughter, they are factual. They are reliable. They are dependable. They are concerned. They’re going to think things through. They are duty bound.

Kristina 15:40

Yes, they are-

Heather 15:41

That they hold a very high reliability and duty for themselves, of responsibility. They like law and order. They will follow rules because they are rules. They don’t particularly question the rules.

Kristina 15:59

Nope.

Heather 15:59

They just follow them because it’s “the right thing to do.” So as I think about my husband, he is very humble. I often refer to him as a very quiet leader, and that I admire so much because I’m not quiet ever, and if I have thoughts in my mind, they usually come out my mouth. And I admire about him that he is a very thoughtful, discerning, wise, but still a very strong leader. He’s just much quieter about it. So I admire those things, because that’s not me. And so I think that’s really, really good. He also loves traditions. Guardians love traditions. And you have to be careful with Guardians and know who those are in your family, because if you start something, they’re gonna turn it into a tradition oftentimes. Like “We’re gonna do this every year, and this is gonna be our thing.” And you think, “Oh, that? I thought I was doing this once. I didn’t know I was committing to the rest of my life.”

Kristina 17:05

Right-

Heather 17:06

With this. Again, they pride themselves on being dependable, helpful and hardworking, and they are.

Kristina 17:12

Yeah.

Heather 17:13

They’re the friend that if you are moving on a rainy Saturday morning and the work begins at 7am they will be there at 6am. And they will probably have coffee and donuts, and they will be in it for the long haulin’ their rain gear.

Kristina 17:26

Yep, showing up.

Heather 17:27

They’re showing up as life partners, Guardians are incredibly loyal.

Kristina 17:34

Yes.

Heather 17:35

And they are helpers. They’re responsible parents. They’re responsible people, I would say. But as a parent, they’re just really responsible people, and they are stabilizing leaders.

Kristina 17:48

Yes.

Heather 17:49

They, again, believe in law and order. They are concerned citizens. They seek security, and they really pride themselves on a strong sense of justice and fairness. All of that is very important to them.

Kristina 18:10

They can be a wee bit pessimistic.

Heather 18:12

Pessimistic, yes, I would absolutely agree, and maybe a little self righteous. I don’t know that they are self righteous. I think they can be perceived as being self righteous, but really they are kind of the cornerstone of our society. They are going to do the jobs that other people might not be interested at all in doing because they require so much duty and service.

Kristina 18:36

Yes.

Heather 18:37

So they tend to be police officers. They tend to be our military people. They have that very strong sense of patriotism and justice and law and all of those things. As I think about my Guardian children, they required a lot of setting the scene for them. “This is what you can expect.” They like to know the rules. They like to have predictability. They don’t easily flexibly adapt.

Kristina 19:05

No. Change is very hard.

Heather 19:07

Change is very hard. And they’re never going to leap before they look. They are going to stand back. They’re going to watch everyone else. And they’re going to decide if this is a good idea or this is a bad idea. And then they will move in. And that’s a really important thing to know as a parent, because we want to honor within our children if they have a feeling of, “Oh, ” we don’t want to rush them in that kind of “uh oh” feeling. If they have an “uh oh” about something.

Kristina 19:36

Even though I might be somebody that would rush right in, that’s the child might be a different temperament. They value family.

Heather 19:41

And we don’t want to teach our children to distrust what feels natural to them. We want to have them rely on that because they’re going to feel greater awareness of themselves and better connected to who they are naturally, rather than “I’m going to go through life trying to be like my mom or my dad” or whatever it might be, right? That’s going to just feel maybe unnatural to them. So they do take more time in all of that. And I remember when my kids would start school, I would, you know, write a little note to the teacher at the beginning and say, “This is who Zack is. He really likes predictability. He likes structure. He’s gonna probably follow any rule that he knows exists, just because it exists.” And that was him when he was very little. Now, Guardians, as they grow, can look a little different, because they do hit the spot of rebellion, and it looks very different. They’re not ever highly rebellious. They still go back to valuing laws and order and structure. They value stuff. Oh yes,

Kristina 20:51

And whether you’re young or whether you’re old, if you’re a Guardian, you really value being a helper. So raising Guardian children, if you have Guardian children, they are not a really hard temperament to raise, because they like to be helpful. They like to do jobs and feel that they’re contributing to the family, like with chores and things like that. And they follow rules just because it’s there.

Heather 21:17

Yeah.

Kristina 21:17

It does not have they make sense.

Heather 21:19

They don’t question, they just follow it, because that’s the rule, and that’s what you do.

Kristina 21:23

Yep. And they trust and they value authority. So they respect authority simply because it’s there. You don’t have to earn it with them. They just respect.

Heather 21:34

And it makes them feel safer, and-

Kristina 21:36

Yeah, that’s a great point.

Heather 21:37

It makes them feel more in control, I would say. And they are the type that will say things like, “The world is going to hell in a handbasket.” Like we have lost it all. And it’s so funny that the generations have been saying that for years and years and years and years. It dates way back.

Kristina 21:59

Yeah.

Heather 21:59

That is a common-

Kristina 22:01

Like “Women can wear pants. What’s happening to the world, right?”

Heather 22:05

So many things. So that is just- that’s a Guardian statement. And when you know those things, you can kind of chuckle about it and be like, “Oh, yeah, that’s your that’s your duty bound side.”

Kristina 22:20

We would be lost without the Guardians, because they really are like the pillars of society, and they ensure that our institutions run, because they will serve on the board, and they will be on the committee, and they will make sure there are diapers in the diaper bank, because they have concern for our culture, for our society, for our neighborhood, for our home, they feel responsible,

Heather 22:47

They do. And they also might be more likely to have high blood pressure and hypertension, because- have more anxiety-because of all that duty and because of all that feeling of responsibility. I will often say to my husband, like “That’s not all on you.” And yet then we go to church on Sunday, and he owns an HVAC company, and we’re sitting in church, and he hadn’t yet – at the church. I mean, he doesn’t work for the church – but this is what he does because of who he is, he hadn’t turned the boilers off yet and turned the air conditioning systems on. And I think every sweet little old lady in church was fanning herself and then giving him the stink eye like, because they know he’s in charge. But now it’s like, “I think it’s time to switch the systems over and get a little cool air blowing in here.” And he’s like, “Yeah, I think so. I think that’s my job forever now.” But I’m like, “It’s not. It’s fine, like, we don’t all have to be 100% comfortable all of the time,” because he will put that weight on his shoulder, right?

Kristina 23:56

Like “I’m responsible for all of that-“

Heather 23:57

Along with everything else – his family responsibilities, his business responsibilities, all of those things. And that’s what Guardians do.

Kristina 24:06

Guardian parents are the parents most likely to say something like, “You do it because I told you to do it. Because I said so,” yep, because that’s how they worked. I do things because somebody told me to do it. Somebody in authority told me to do it. I don’t ask any questions. I don’t need anything else. You told me to do it. So I will. Now, every little toddler goes through the Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Phase. But Guardian children, more than any other temperament, will do what their parents ask if they know the expectation, because they want to meet it and they want to please you.

Heather 24:44

And here’s a bit of the rub with that, is that Guardians, they expect obedience.

Kristina 24:51

Yes.

Heather 24:52

Because that is how they organize their world.

Kristina 24:55

Yep.

Heather 24:56

There is right and there is wrong.

Kristina 24:57

Yup.

Heather 24:58

There is black and there is white. There is lawful, and then there’s unlawful.

Kristina 25:03

There’s good and bad.

Heather 25:05

Good and bad. Right and wrong. All of those very polar opposite ways of thinking. They do not live in the shades of gray. They are not comfortable there. This is lovely because I think there are only shades of gray, and my husband is this black and white. It’s- I mean, that’s evolved over time, because his life experiences with moi has grown his character, but he still remains that very black or white thinking is his natural inclination, but he can pause now and be like, “Let’s talk this through.” And same for me. I can be very comfortable in those middle grounds in between them, and he’ll be like, “We’ve gotta take a hard stance on whatever this is,” and so we’ve had to work that out. So back to the obedience thought: Guardians, it makes sense to them to obey, and if that’s how you organize your world, of course, that makes sense. But then, if you have a child that is not a Guardian, that doesn’t organize their world, in this land of obedience, it can get real tricky, intense and stressful, because all of a sudden you’re not used to this challenge or question or “why,” and it’s stressful, and it can be like, “Who even are you? Why are you such a disrespectful little person?”

Kristina 25:07

Yep. That’s it. Well, you’ve talked at other times Heather about mealtime at your home and how Travis was very much in the camp of “You eat what has been provided for you. No questions. That is what you eat.” Because he’s a Guardian, and that’s what you do. And to not do that would be very disrespectful

Heather 26:40

-to the person who had made the food.

Kristina 26:48

Right. Yup. And Guardians have very little tolerance for disrespect, and they see it all over.

Heather 26:58

And then where the real rub happens is when you get a more free thinking child, like an Artisan. Let’s talk about the sweet Artisans of the world who are the second largest population. So Guardians, 45%. Artisans, 30%. So between Guardians and Artisans, we have 75% of the population in America represented. So let’stalk about Artisans, who literally color our world.

Kristina 27:36

They are so much fun.

Heather 27:38

They are so much fun. So they are optimistic, daring. I would say dare devils almos. Flexible, adaptable, excitable, impulsive-

Kristina 27:51

Yes, yes.

Heather 27:53

Playful, spontaneous, persuasive-

Kristina 27:58

Oh, yeah.

Heather 27:59

Just you want to be around them. There’s an energy.

Kristina 28:02

They’re fun. They bring the fun.

Heather 28:03

They bring the fun.

Kristina 28:05

They also bring the risk, which, if you’re like me, that is not fun. But they’re the ones doing donuts in parking lots-

Heather 28:15

Cutting through all the places they shouldn’t be. Cutting through. All the things. There’s so many things. And they’re just playful, fun-loving, optimistic. So they’re really fun to be around, because they tend to be really upbeat, and they see the good in everybody.

Kristina 28:32

Stuff doesn’t ruffle their feathers.

Heather 28:34

No. Life is meant to be lived. And why wouldn’t you enjoy it? We are going to live life to the fullest, they will have way less anxiety than their Guardian friends.

Kristina 28:44

They will also not have the same 401K.

Heather 28:47

That’s right. Because they’re gonna travel while they’re young and beautiful, and those Guardians are going to pile up their money and travel when they’re not young and beautiful.

Kristina 29:02

They’re going to leave it to their children is what they’re going to do.

Heather 29:05

They’re going to build generational wealth. And the Artisans are

Kristina 29:11

Like going out. I’m sliding into home with not a penny to my name, but here we go,

Heather 29:15

And I’m going to blog about it. Yep, absolutely. So they pride themselves on being bold and unconventional and spontaneous. In life, they look for a playmate. So they want someone that can have fun with them, that can roll with that spontaneity. They make really creative parents and troubleshooting leaders. They don’t even know the box is there. Depending on how strong of an Artisan you are, like the box might not even exist. They’re “out of the box” thinkers. They are the big, loud, let’s hammer this out. Great ideas, people, visionaries. They’re excitable. They trust their impulses. They are the leapers. They aren’t gonna look, they’re gonna leap.

Kristina 29:16

Yeah.

Heather 29:16

And so they trust those impulses, and oftentimes, their bodies can support that. They’re oftentimes quite athletic, and have a earlier-

Kristina 30:12

Body awareness. Yes.

Heather 30:14

And they can manipulate their bodies in ways like athletes do from a very young age. Typically, that’s one of their areas of giftedness, I would say. And because they seek stimulation, they just are more physical in general at an early age. People would be like, “Oh, you know, he was walking by nine months, and hasn’t ever stopped. And like, is just everywhere and fast.” And probably an Artisan. They just command their body differently, and they’re busy.

Kristina 30:41

Yes. And because they are not risk averse, they also try things that others may not be willing to try. So if you have something on wheels, you have a skateboard, you have roller skates, you have anything on wheels, the Artisans want to be on them. And because they’re so aware of their bodies, they can get pretty good. And I think “You’re too young. That’s too dangerous. You shouldn’t be on that scooter.” Yet, the Artisans are like, “Watch me go.” If there’s something to jump off of that Artisan, it’s gonna jump off of it.

Heather 31:15

And a Guardian would say, “Well, they’ll do that once, and they won’t do that again.” And the Artisan child will get up, dust themselves off, and be like, “Well, I lived through that. Let’s see what else I can do.”

Kristina 31:27

I have an Artisan nephew who is wonderful and I’m not an Artisan, and I love the freedom of the Artisans. And he will do things. I mean, he’s the kid who the garage door is going down, and he is quite sure that he can make it underneath, as it’s, you know, so he’s, he’s sliding across the floor so that he can get his body out the garage door in time. And I was with him one time, and he didn’t quite make it, so it stopped right on him. He’s like, “Oh, didn’t die. Didn’t die.” He’d like to say “didn’t die. Almost died twice this month, but it didn’t die.”

Heather 32:05

So let’s talk about Artisans. Can look sometimes maybe more hyperactive. We need to say that any of these temperaments, Guardians, Artisans, Idealists, Rationals, any of them can have things like ADHD, can be on the autism spectrum, can have anxiety, can have depression, because that is any person.

Kristina 32:35

Right.

Heather 32:35

But there are temperaments that are more likely to be misdiagnosed because they look like they may be hyperactive Artisans, because they are so physical, because they can, especially extroverted ones, kind of run on a motor, are most likely to be misdiagnosed as having ADHD. More hyperactive.

Kristina 33:01

Well, it’s because they trust their impulses.

Heather 33:02

It doesn’t mean that we can’t have Artisans, guys, that have ADHD. They absolutely can-

Kristina 33:07

But many of them look like they could because they trust those impulses, because they are bold.

Heather 33:14

Yeah, they’re gonna blurt. Children in school They have an idea, it’s gonna come right out their mouth.

Kristina 33:20

Yep. Yep and they just want to have fun. And rules really just ruin the fun.

Heather 33:28

And that’s a huge piece of it. Rules confine them. And restrict them. And they have a true need for two things: impact and freedom. They want to make a big splash. Cannonballs. Big impact. And “don’t hem me in. I want my freedom.” So here’s the thing as we think about children and Guardians and Artisans: Schools, traditional school, was built by Guardians, for Guardians. Those little Artisans? That is a system that does not feel natural to them because there are so many rules and because it is about following the herd.

Kristina 34:09

Right. Order.

Heather 34:10

Like you go where you’re told. You do this part of the day. You line up at the door. You don’t touch the walls. I mean, these are the kids that would have the hands out and be making noises and interacting as they’re going down the hall and wave to their friend and say “hi ” to their last year’s teacher-

Kristina 34:25

Even sitting. Even doing work at a desk or a table, Artisans were not meant to sit. They’re always on the move. And even the quieter ones, even the introverted Artisans, are not so thrilled with all of that containment and rule following things like that. They just want to soak in all that they can experience in the world. And so they are kind of the most hedonistic.

Heather 34:52

They’re the life of the

Kristina 34:53

They are.

Heather 34:54

And they kind of like to be so spontaneous and impulsive that they can be viewed as reckless and irresponsible.

Kristina 35:03

Especially by Guardians.

Heather 35:03

A Guardian parent is going to and they tend to be like the rock stars of our world, or they go into drama or theater or dance or things that a Guardian parent might say, “How do you intend to support yourself?” Doing that ? It’s a very Guardian thing to say when the Artisan would be like, “How could I ever live without doing that?” It’s not about how am I going to support myself? It’s about, how am I even going to live and be happy if I can’t do that? And so those are really big conversations. I just had a conversation with a friend yesterday who is an Artisan and Artisan parents, I can only imagine, are so much fun. They tend to have really loose boundaries. That’s one of the areas that if you’re an Artisan parent, you need to shore up and be aware of. And she said that someone had said to her, “So you’ve raised your kids to be these free thinkers and to really pride themselves in that, and that’s highly valued for you. And now that they’re getting older and growing into young adults, you want them to have a plan, and you’ve never raised them to have a plan. You’ve always wanted them to be these free thinking, spontaneous, soak it all in people, but now you’re feeling the need for them to buckle down because they’re of an age, yeah, but you’ve never raised them in that way.” Where they have to get responsible. Yes!

Kristina 36:38

That’s very hard for the Artisans. Rules are hard for them. Making decisions. That’s hard for them. Time is very fluid for Artisans. For Guardians to be on time is to be ten minutes early, right? Artisans are like – who knows when they’ll show up? If you’re moving, you may call an Artisan to come have fun and be the entertainment.

Heather 37:01

And if something better comes along, they’re going there. They’re gonna be like, “Oh man, so and so called and we went to the game.” Like “have fun.”

Kristina 37:03

They’re out. Who would pass that up? And they wouldn’t even let you know, right? And they’re the people that, even if you’ve had plans to do something, at the eleventh hour, will be like, “Hey, can we just stick that turkey – I know it’s been thawing for three days, and we were planning to do this – but just stick it back in the fridge, because can we do this instead? And people are like, “What? Like we’ve been planning this event! Like the table is set for what we’re doing tomorrow. I’m not putting the thawed turkey back in the fridge.” And the Guardians are irate, but those Artisans can just shift and flex and move and want to go wherever the wind takes them. Yes, but boy oh boy, if you are not an Artisan and you’re a Guardian, you worry about those Artisans because, you know-

Heather 37:53

It looks like they could be wildly irresponsible and really poor planners. And we see this play out on a lot of sitcoms where families are featured, right? There’s typically the really strong, responsible, typically oldest child, and then the young, free flowing Artisan, youngest child is portrayed. But that’s really a temperament thing. It’s not necessarily a younger/older thing.

Kristina 38:18

And when I look at Artisans, I think to myself, “Oh, I wish I could be that fun. Oh, they take the best vacations. And they just decided to just get up and go.” I have friends that they’re both Artisans. Both of the adults are Artisans. And, man, do they have fun. They go on great adventures and have a wonderful, wonderful time. And they just do it.

Heather 38:41

It’s the people who take off on their boat and decide to sail for an entire year or two. And that’s just what they’re gonna do. And the rest of the family kind of goes, “Huh? You’re gonna what? Who does that?” Well, they do.

Kristina 38:59

So those Artisans, they suck up every single piece of experience that they can. They have an awful lot of fun. They do not get stomach ulcers because they’re just not that worried about it. And being adventuresome is really important to them.

Heather 39:17

And they can be really frustrating to the Guardians who pride on duty, on service and responsibility. Because, again, if you’re an Artisan, let’s say you’re in meetings on a board somewhere, and you’re just like, “Yeah.” They love every idea. They’re not gonna see fault with anything. They’re going to support it all. But then somebody has to get the work done, right? And it’s not going to be the Artisan, right? It’s going to fall to the Guardian. And so that is some of the- I just want to paint the picture of what some of the rubs can be when you get these temperaments together, and why, understanding is so important.

Kristina 40:01

Yeah. Artisan children, oh, if they’ve done something they shouldn’t have done, they kind of think it’s funny because these rules are ridiculous. They just confine me anyway. But they’re the ones that’ll be like, “Ooh!”, shaking their little booty at you and being like, “Catch me if you can.” And they run on off. But they’re so charming, those Artisans, oh, that when you do sit to have a conversation with your child, and they have this wonderful look, and they can be so persuasive, and they just can tell you kind of what you want to hear. It’s really hard to discipline them.

Heather 40:36

And they can make you laugh too.

Kristina 40:37

Oh, for sure-

Heather 40:38

Because they’re usually wildly funny.

Kristina 40:40

Yeah, hilarious.

Heather 40:43

Absolutely.

Kristina 40:43

Yep. So with Artisan children, if you are fortunate enough to have an Artisan in your family as the parent, you want to have risk involved in the things that they do, but if you decide what the risk is, then you can keep them safe. So things like rock climbing, things like Karate or Taekwondo and doing those kinds of things where the young Artisan gets to really challenge themselves physically and take those things that are risky. But as a parent, you can say, “Hey, they’re rock climbing, but they’re harnessed up.”

Heather 41:24

That’s the huge part of it, that when you have an Artisan child, you must preach safety. From basically day one, they have to understand safety first. And they will joke, as does my son, “No, safety third!”, like “safety first,” yeah. And so you have to really model that and allow the opportunity for all of the understanding of the safety: the helmets, the elbow pads, the knee pads, perhaps the chest guard, whatever it is. They need to understand that if you’re going to rock climb, you’re harnessed, because they want to take risks, and they have the sort of need to. I mean, adrenaline can be addictive. And they run on a high level of stimulation and need to kind of one up and level up, level up, and be really good at it. And they typically are. You just want to keep them safe. Yep. You know, they’re the guys that, I mean, the bull riders. So many things that we can look at. And then we think, who does that? It’s Artistans who do that.

Kristina 42:41

I think about dares. In our home, we have an agreement, a rule: no dares, no secrets. Those do not lead to happy places. A Guardian isn’t going to take a dare because they’re too concerned and it’s too risky. If you dare an Artisan to do something they are all in and may even up the ante. So don’t dare an Artisan, because they’ll do it just to see what will happen.

Heather 43:10

And the other thing is growing their awareness of: that might seem like a really cool thing to do. How does it impact others? Because they don’t naturally go to that. So they can pride themselves on being hilarious and funny, and they want those big moments, but they don’t think through how that casts a shadow perhaps onto someone else, and that can be hard to live in an Artisan’s shadow. If you’re not an Artisan, they’re the frontliner, they’re the headliner, they’re the funny and then that can cast a pretty big shadow to a spouse or a child or whomever. So that it’s helping, if you’re raising an Artisan child, grow the awareness of be aware of how that impacts, how that choice is going to impact those around you. My son is very funny. We use humor in our home a lot. But from a very young age, I had to teach him that every good comedian knows timing is everything. Setting. Knowing your audience. All of those things all really matter if, if you’re truly looking to hone that skill. And so he took that and could understand that then, and it helped him a lot. So again, there are so many wonderful things with each of these temperaments. There’s also growth areas that just awareness of helps you automatically think about it a bit differently.

Kristina 44:46

Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up! Adventures in Parenthood. I’m Kristina

Heather 44:52

and I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

Kristina 44:57

Until next time, see you on the trail! The Gear Up! Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell.

Heather 45:14

The ODC Network is a non-profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Kristina 45:22

Since 2000, the ODC Network has served over a million people through hands on outdoor learning experiences and conserved thousands of acres of native habitat through restoration and preservation projects.

Heather 45:35

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature. To learn more and get involved, go to www.odcnetwork.org.

Show Notes

Episode 2: The Parenting Journey, Part 2 of 2

SUMMARY

They discuss the importance of discovering and celebrating each child’s unique identity, rather than trying to mold them into a predetermined vision.

They share personal experiences of navigating parenting challenges, such as dealing with a child’s learning differences and embracing their child’s specific interests, even when they are outside the parent’s comfort zone.

The conversation emphasizes the value of building a supportive community of friends and family who can provide encouragement, perspective, and a listening ear during difficult times.

They highlight the role of imaginative play in a child’s development and the need for parents to be flexible and adapt to their child’s needs.

This episode underscores the importance of finding personal coping strategies, like using music, and using humor to manage stress and maintain a positive mindset throughout the parenting journey.

Overall, this episode focuses on the importance of letting go of expectations, celebrating each child’s uniqueness, and surrounding ourselves with a supportive community to navigate the ups and downs of parenthood.

Embracing the Parenting Journey

Heather introduces the episode’s theme: understanding the parenting journey and the challenges of letting go of expectations.
They discuss the importance of balancing personal needs with a child’s unique needs.
Heather mentions the benefits of maintaining order, allowing room for imaginative play, and stepping out of our comfort zones.
They emphasize the role of a supportive community in raising children.

The Foundation of Parenting

“We hear that a lot from parents:

‘Oh, they’re nothing like me. They’re exactly like my husband or my partner or my dad or my mom. And I have no idea how to parent this child. I thought they were just going to be a mini version of myself and that we’d get along beautifully, and it was all going to be adorable, social media posts and doing all of these things together. But it’s not, and it’s much more challenging than I thought.’

And part of that is as a parent beginning to realize who your child is and who they are uniquely gifted to be, and that that might be vastly different from who you are, but when you can recognize them for who they are and the gifts that they have, and celebrate that, it’s a much more joyful journey…”

Heather and Kristina discuss the transition from being “perfect parents” before having children to the reality of parenting.
They highlight the importance of embracing the child one has, rather than the one expected, and how challenging that can be.
Heather and Kristina share personal experiences of realizing their children are not mini versions of themselves.
They discuss the joy of discovering and celebrating a child’s unique gifts.

Navigating Parenting Challenges

“…And one of the things that I recommend to parents, is to really see your journey as a parent in this adventure of parenthood as evolving and changing along the way. Because, really, in this moment, I hope to be the parent that my child needs.”

Heather talks about the grief of realizing that her son’s educational journey was going to be different from her own.
They discuss the importance of letting go of preconceived notions about a child’s abilities and celebrating their unique gifts and abilities.
Heather shares her experience of discovering her son’s love for critters and how it changed her perspective on parenting.
The conversation touches on the challenges of meeting a child’s needs while also dealing with personal expectations.

Imaginative Play and Supporting Children’s Interests

Heather and Kristina discuss the critical importance of imaginative play in a child’s development.
Heather shares an anecdote about her son’s love for nature and how it led to unexpected experiences, like handling frogs and snakes.
They discuss the role of music in managing household chaos.
Kristina talks about the importance of adapting to a child’s unique interests and not forcing them into preconceived roles.

Building a Supportive Community

“Comparison is…the thief of joy.”

Heather emphasizes the importance of having a supportive community to navigate the challenges of parenting.
Kristina shares her experience of letting go of her own preconceived ideas about parenting and embracing the journey.
They discuss the importance of surrounding ourselves with people who support and love both the parent and the child.
Heather and Kristina discuss the impactful role of friends in providing support and celebrating milestones together.

The Role of Friends in Parenting

“One of my greatest and best surprises as a parent was having my friend group, my and my husband’s friend group, embrace our children, love our children, support them, cheer them on for who they are, individually and uniquely, and just show interest in them. That has been – there are many great joys as a parent – that has been one to me that was really fulfilling, because it’s so contrary to what we often see in society.”

Heather talks about the joy of having friends who embrace and support our children and how we can provide support for each other’s children.
The importance of having a supportive friend group that doesn’t judge or compare is emphasized.
Kristina shares her experience of calling a friend for support during difficult parenting moments.
The conversation highlights the role of friends in providing perspective and support during challenging times.

Letting Go of Expectations

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of letting go of societal expectations and focusing on the child’s unique needs.
They discuss the challenges of dealing with judgment and comparison from others.
Heather emphasizes the importance of tuning out external “noise” and focusing on our child’s development.

The Importance of Community

Heather and Kristina deepen their discussion of the role of community in supporting parents and children.
They talk about the importance of having a supportive network to share both the joys and challenges of parenting.
Heather shares an anecdote about a community gathering that emphasized the importance of companionship and support
They discuss the role of our “village” in celebrating milestones and providing support during difficult times.

Embracing the Journey

Heather and Kristina discuss the importance of embracing the unique challenges parenting brings.
They emphasize the importance of focusing on the child’s needs and letting go of preconceived ideas.
Heather shares her experience of dealing with her child’s dyslexia and the importance of celebrating our children’s unique gifts.
Kristina talks about the importance of adapting to a child’s unique interests and providing support for their growth.

Final Thoughts

Heather and Kristina wrap up the episode by emphasizing the importance of community and support in parenting, letting go of expectations, and focusing on the child’s unique needs.
Heather and Kristina express gratitude for the support they have received from their community.

Further Reading

Benefits of Imaginative Play:

The Power of Play: A Pediatric Role in Enhancing Development in Young Children

The Power of Play:

Attachment and Connection:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals

Episode 2: The Parenting Journey, Part 2 of 2

Heather 00:00

In this episode, we’ll deepen our understanding of embracing the parenting journey and how we do that, because parenting is a marathon, not a sprint.

Kristina 00:09

We explore why it’s so challenging for us as parents to let go of the expectations we have for ourselves and our kids.

Heather 00:16

“Embracing the parenting journey” might sound nice, but how specifically do we handle all the unexpected challenges that come with it? Because those challenges will come for all of us.

Kristina 00:27

And a big part of that is learning to let go. We explore how we find the balance between meeting our needs and our child’s unique needs.

Heather 00:36

We discuss things like maintaining order, imaginative play, and stepping out of our comfort zones like touching frogs and snakes, which definitely wasn’t on my radar before I became a mom.

Kristina 00:48

To wrap things up, we’ll talk about the importance of building a supportive community while raising children.

Heather 00:54

Our village plays such a crucial role in helping us embrace and celebrate the many wonders we experience on this adventure in parenthood. Welcome to Gear Up: Adventures In Parenthood!

Kristina 01:10

A podcast where we explore the struggles and challenges we all face as parents. We’ll share ideas and offer tips and strategies for raising happy, healthy children. My name’s Kristina Boersma.

Heather 01:23

And I’m Heather Bouwman. Kristina and I are clinical social workers who’ve been working with families and children for a good long minute. We’re support service directors for the Early Childhood Network of ODC Network in Holland, Michigan, and we get to support parents and children as they navigate the tricky terrain of raising children and growing up in today’s world.

Kristina 01:44

We’re here to help unpack the hard stuff and connect with the joy of parenting.

Heather 01:50

Are you ready? Let’s hit the trails. This project is made possible by the ODC Network, an amazing nonprofit organization based in Holland, Michigan where we get to work supporting preschool aged students, their teachers and their parents.

Kristina 02:11

The ODC Network is all about nurturing the community and the next generation through a wide variety of innovative nature based initiatives.

Heather 02:18

Please visit www.odcnetwork.com to learn more about the ODC Network’s mission and impact.

Kristina 02:28

We love what we get to do. We’ve been working together since we met in graduate school decades ago, and have always had a passion for working with families and children and really helping them rediscover the joy of parenthood and walk alongside them on this journey, which is an adventure. Sometimes you think you’re going out for a sweet little hike, simple, easy, beautiful day, and you end up wrestling crocodiles.

Heather 02:57

So it requires some gear and maybe a guide…

Kristina 03:01

And a bit of preparation, because what you thought you’d be doing and what you’re actually doing can be quite different. So we’re going to talk about that today. So in this episode, we’re going to talk about the foundation of this adventure in parenthood. We’ll talk about how, oh my word, before we had children, we were-

Heather 03:19

Best parents ever!

Kristina 03:21

Oh amazing, remarkable parents-

Heather 03:23

We knew it all.

Kristina 03:24

Yeah, and then some. I thought,

Heather 03:26

And were willing to share all of our knowledge openly.

Kristina 03:31

We were in the business of helping parents before we became parents, and it’s changed now that we have our own and have experienced that very personally and not just through theory and through our education. So it’s different, and we’re excited to share that with you. We’re going to unpack all that goes into loving the child that you have, embracing joy in the midst of what can be a challenging time, and growing yourself into the parent you were always meant to be.

Heather 04:11

Kristina and I often talk to parents who are surprised as they begin this journey of parenting, and they’re surprised at a variety of things that they maybe begin to reflect on their own childhood, how they were parented. We get asked a ton, “I’m parenting very differently from my parents. Why is it so challenging and difficult? I feel so judged.” So there’s a lot that when you embark on this journey as a parent that you maybe didn’t fully anticipate, right? You were just caught up in the wonder and the amazement of it all, and dreaming about this child that you were going to have, and who you were going to be as a parent, and all of a sudden you have this child, and maybe they are nothing like you expected them to. Look like they behave nothing like you thought they would. They don’t like the same things as you. They don’t have the same interests. They maybe are inspired by different things. They maybe are angered by different things. And you think, “Where did this child come from?” We hear that a lot from parents. “Oh, they’re nothing like me. They’re exactly like my husband or my partner or my dad or my mom. And I have no idea how to parent this child. I thought they were just going to be a mini version of myself and that we’d get along beautifully, and it was all going to be adorable, social media posts and doing all of these things together. But it’s not, and it’s much more challenging than I thought.” And part of that is as a parent beginning to realize who your child is and who they are uniquely gifted to be, and that that might be vastly different from who you are, but when you can recognize them for who they are and the gifts that they have, and celebrate that, it’s a much more joyful journey. You and I have both had this experience.

Kristina 06:23

Oh, absolutely

Heather 06:24

you when you met grace. I remember coming to see you in the hospital and you just having really large eyes and saying, this child is mine and not who I thought she was going to be

Kristina 06:36

Absolutely. From the moment she was born, and they held her up for me to see. I went, “huh, that are you sure that that’s my baby? Because that’s not how I imagined her at all.” And what you spoke about, discovering who your child is is so important because we spend so much time trying to force our child into who we thought they’d be or who we hoped they would be before they ever arrived in our lives. And that process is a painful process for both parent and child, because we hold expectations for this little human that are not within their interest, within their gifts, within who they’re meant to be, and when we can let go of that and really settle into the pleasure of discovering who they are – it’s a pleasure. Doesn’t mean it’s always easy – settling into who they are and then figuring out how can we support and nurture their growth so that they grow into who they were designed to be?

Heather 07:47

So for me, I love to read. I love to learn. I have three kids, and read to all of them from basically birth, I remember sitting in the nursery with my oldest on my lap. He couldn’t have been more than three or four months reading children’s books to him. We did this routinely. I remember then him growing and crawling after his bathtub, and he would get so excited and go grab the books out of the little container that was next to the rocking chair, and he’d hold one up, so excited. And as that journey went on and he got into kindergarten, it wasn’t happening. He wasn’t learning his letters well, he wasn’t able to learn how those sounds formed words. And I thought, How can this be? How is this my child? I love to read. We’ve read to him for his whole life. He should be able to read Harry Potter by now. It should just happen. It didn’t just happen. And on that journey, we found out all three of my kids actually have dyslexia. But that was a whole thing. That was a whole thing to unpack and uncover. And you were along on that journey, absolutely and what did you find out? Well, I found out that I have dyslexia, which I didn’t know about. But it wasn’t just the unpacking of that discovery. It was also dealing with the grief that your child was not going to cherish the same thing that you have cherished, and that is reading and visiting lands you’ve never traveled to through, and also that his education was going to be a very different experience than mine. Yeah, I had a first grader who hated school that wasn’t easy for me, because I loved school, and I wanted him to love school because I knew he had a whole lot more of it. It was a lot more to come. And if we’re at six, seven years old and not loving it. Whew. It’s a long ways to 19 when we graduate. So these are the things that make parenting a marathon and not a sprint. It’s meeting your child where they’re at, meeting yourself as a parent where you’re at. At I had to reconcile all of that within myself, right? That grief of getting this child through school is going to be a challenge, and it is going to be a marathon. It is not going to be easy peasy lemon squeezy. We’re gonna work hard. There’s gonna be some grit involved, and there was, and he did it. He did it. He’s on the other end, you guys, he did it. He’s 20. He’s happy. He made it through school just fine. But that for me was something that I grieved a bit, that it was going to be a much different experience for him in school than it was for me. And we have all sorts of things. You’ve had different griefs on your parenting journey. We all will have them, but it’s who we wrap around us in those times, who we take with us on that adventure and can support us through it absolutely.

Kristina 10:58

And for your oldest, when you could let go of who you thought he would be as a reader and as a learner and as a student and celebrate who he is. He is amazing.

Heather 11:12

He is amazing, and it is being able to change that lens and look at how they’re each uniquely gifted and celebrating all of those things and helping them celebrate those differences and those things that make them uniquely them, because that’s what builds that confidence, and that’s what builds their inner voice, and when we as parents can support them in that, that’s when they fly, and that’s when we see them soar. And there’s great, great joy.

Kristina 11:45

So there’s letting go of the child you thought you’d have, and there’s also letting go of the parent you thought you’d be. Girl. I was gonna do all organic foods. I was gonna cloth a diaper. I mean, we were going to the beach a lot, and none of those things happened, which surprised me, because I thought I would do those things, and yet I didn’t. I didn’t do those things. And I have friends, right, that take all of their children, all four of them, to the beach a lot, and have a great time. And I’m thinking, I can barely schlep the stuff we need to the car and out to the grocery store, let alone trying to move all of the things to go to the beach with my child, who will then be covered with sand, and I’ll love it, because they like to be a sugar donut and roll in it. And we’ll never have a clean car again, right?

Heather 12:38

You’ll never have a clean car again anyway. Yeah, welcome to parent. Be honest.

Kristina 12:44

That’s so true. It is so true. But discovering who I am as a parent to this particular child in our family, who my partner is as a parent, also part of that journey and really trying to embrace instead of feel guilty about who we are. And one of the things I think about and one of the things that I recommend to parents, is to really see your journey as a parent in this adventure of parenthood as evolving and changing along the way. Because really, in this moment, I hope to be the parent that my child needs. Yeah, you’re really growing your children, and your children are growing us absolutely you

Heather 13:43

I distinctly remember we have property, and there’s woods. And Luke is my second born, and he, since he was very little, had a love of all things, critters, like frogs, bugs, snakes. He just loves nature. Still to this day, all of my kids are outdoorsy, but Luke loved the creatures. I remember him knocking on the front door and me coming to the door, and he had his little cupped hands and I opened the door, and he was probably three, and he put his cupped hands up to me and said, Mom, in here is a frog. He just peed on me. Can he live in the house? And I said, No, but I did pet the frog, and I did take the time to share in Luke’s great joy about the creature that he had found that had just peed on him. And then it wasn’t so long after that, and I told him that he couldn’t live in the house that I had gone in our lower level, and I had heard squeals. You know, we all know the squeals. It’s like, if there’s too much silence, you get worried, and then if there are these certain squeals of joy and laughter, you also get. Worried for very different reasons. So I went downstairs, where my boys bedrooms are with a bathroom in between, and they were having great delight. And what I could see was there were hopping frogs in the sink, and they had, we have these egress windows, and they had opened them up. And in those window wells were a bunch of frogs. They had brought them in the house. And, I mean, this is a moment in parenting where you think, I can really lose it here, right, because there are frogs in the sink, or I can just step back a minute and try not to hyperventilate and just watch what’s happening in front of me. And this is the thing that I think for me, took a lot of practice to be able to watch them in that moment and go, these brothers, look what they’ve done. I don’t love it. It is kind of hilarious, and I can appreciate it, but they’re gonna remember this forever. And like, I could just hear them flashing forward 15 years going, “do you remember that one time we cranked the windows open and had all the frogs in the sink?” and I couldn’t destroy that for them, even though everything within me just wanted to Lysol the whole space, like, let’s get all the frogs slime off of everything, everybody to the bathtubs, because that’s who I was as a parent, right? But to be able to find my composure and take the beauty in the moment, it’s also another moment where we would often, when the kids were little, go on family hikes behind our home, and I saw a snake rustling through the woods, and I bolted ahead, and I grabbed it, and I picked it up and said,” Luke, look, I found a snake.” And then I locked eyes with my husband and said,” Who even am I?” Seriously? That’s love people. I did not touch snakes. I had no desire to touch snakes, but I loved the child that I brought into the world who loved snakes, and there I was chasing them down and apparently catching them. Everybody has to live in the home, right? So there’s a point for me where I love to observe all the play, because we know play equals learning for littles, right? And you want them to play. And my son, Luke, always had the little people. I know grace.

Kristina 17:32

Grace did as well, too,

Heather 17:34

Like the little people. And they could create a little village, and it would all be created, and it would spread out over a very wide amount of area right in the middle of the home, because they want to be where we are, right. They want to be in close proximity. So it’s like and now your village has taken over the hallway or the main walkway, and they would always have like community members in a fat in a puking dog. I mean, the detail was amazing, right? It was always there, and they never wanted to clean it up because they had to get back to play in the same play. And for me and my home, it was like, I was good until I wasn’t. Was like, one community member, too many, one dog too many, one little village home, too many. And there was a tipping point, and it was like, done. No more. I can’t do it. And I wouldn’t say those words to them. What I would do is take a deep breath and be like, this is okay. They have no idea what my tipping point is. In fact, I don’t even know what my tipping point is. I just know we’ve reached it. The window of tolerance has now closed. My capacity is diminished for lots of reasons, usually for me, it was, we’re transitioning right. We’re moving away from daytime. We’re getting towards evening, I need to make dinner and get these short people off to bed where I can have some peace and some quiet and some recharging that I think looking back, was probably my tipping point. So in those moments, what I did in my house was turn on a fun song, and music is something that we just always had in our home, playing partly because it calmed and soothed me, or it energized me. Music has that impact. It can be whatever you need it to be. But for my kids, when they heard certain music and it was real uplifting, I would say, “We’re going to take five minutes during the song, and we’re going to pick up as much as we can.” Kristina, this is going to probably be hard for you to hear. I didn’t care what bin it went in. Just put it in a bin and put the bin away. Get it off the floor, get it cleaned up. And they would go and go and go and go and go. And that was enough for me. The music is five minutes. It was a short window. They could do that, and they would all pitch in and help. And that’s that’s something that worked for us and our family.

Kristina 20:12

I love that you bring that up because they don’t know what the one Lego too many is, right?

Heather 20:19

No.

Kristina 20:19

And so for them-

Heather 20:20

I don’t think we do.

Kristina 20:21

No, I don’t. I love your point about that, and you’re great that you didn’t say anything. I would say “this house is making me crazy.”

Heather 20:28

Well, yeah, I had those moments too, let’s be honest-

Kristina 20:31

And then we need to pick up. But it really had everything to do with me and who I was in that moment, how tired I was, if I was feeling stressed, if I was feeling overwhelmed, that’s what it had to do with it didn’t really have to do-

Heather 20:46

And our tolerance, right? Our ability to tolerate whatever was happening, because sometimes play can get really loud, and we can just be on sensory overload at some time, and you step on that Lego and you have a response…

Kristina 21:02

Yep.

Heather 21:02

So in those moments, I think it’s really important to talk about as a parent, what can we do when we’re at the moment? What do you do?

Kristina 21:12

Yeah. And what can you let go of? Right? I was just remembering with a friend that I used to spend hours, hours of my life while Grace was sleeping, separating the Legos by color, and I had all of these wonderful containers that I could separate the colors by size and by hue. And I thought, this is this is beautiful, because this is the way I like things.

Heather 21:36

So this is how we’re different.

Kristina 21:37

And won’t it help my daughter, when she needs to find a piece?

Heather 21:40

I feel like we need to tell them how we’re different. In my house, the Lego bins could maybe have, you know, other things besides Legos, perhaps some human hair, maybe a fingernail or two. I don’t know, like they probably had DNA in them. I didn’t care.

Kristina 21:58

I learned not to care. So that was one of the things too. It’s saying, “does it really matter?” I had to say that a lot to myself, because I loved organized and tidy. And if you came to my house now, you would say “you are a liar,” because I’ve had to learn to live with really asking myself, “does it matter? Does it really matter if the Legos are all mixed together? It doesn’t. And it gives me the opportunity to breathe and maybe practice a little mindfulness if it starts to make me twitchy that there are all of these Legos intermingled, or, heaven forbid, the Play Doh, the Play Doh, is all intermingled. Ah! It’s good. It’s fine. It’s great. But I had to get to the point where I could really let go of that and not be angsty about the state of how my child played and what she needed in order to engage in that imaginary play, which she’s so good at and always has been. It’s part of who she is. And that stretched my partner and I in figuring out how to match that creativity, and that wasn’t easy. So Grace, our daughter, she would wake up in the morning and she’d assign us a role like, “Good morning, mommy. Today you’re Jake.” Okay, I’m “Jake” for the day, and maybe daddy is “Sophia.” I don’t know. It could be whomever we are, and then we’re in those roles, and she decides who she’s going to be for the day. And we had to play those imaginary roles. At dinner, she actually named the first and middle finger of my husband. They were “finger one” and “finger two.” And she would ask at dinner many times “Can I talk to finger one and finger two?” And he’d pull out those fingers and they’d have little conversations. It’s who she was, right and wildly imaginative. But that also meant that she was unable to be contained in her play or in her imagination, and that we were better off rolling with that than saying, “I don’t feel like being Jake today. I just want to be mommy,” because that’s how she needed to play.

Heather 24:08

Mm hmm. And what did that create within her, and what did that nurture within her? Like we don’t know, right? When we’re allowing that imaginary play, which we know is huge for executive function development and for so many frontal lobe things that happen with the brain: self regulation…

Kristina 24:31

Planning…

Heather 24:32

All of it. Like all of that stems originally from the ability to play imaginatively and all that wild creativity, and we recently have just talked about how kids score at NASA’s level of genius to the tune of 95% when they’re five years old, but as they grow right and they get into school now and things like that, creativity goes way, way down. So being able to be Jake and be Sophia in finger one and finger two is going to build that creativity and nurture something in her that really is uniquely her and a way to grow her into her best self. I’m sure all of that has helped her get to where she is today.

Kristina 25:24

Oh, and it led to a lot of laughter in the moment, and a lot of laughter when we look back and say,” Oh, remember when?”

Heather 25:30

And a lot of probably being able to breathe really deeply. I remember she went through a slime phase. And you would call me and be like, “it’s dripping off the table. It’s dripping off the chairs.” Everybody goes through the slime phase. Just endure it. It has some hang time.

Kristina 25:45

I was gonna say that had some big hang time in my house.

Heather 25:47

Yep. It does pass, but it does have some hang time. So I will tell you one of the strategies that I used in my home. My husband used to travel a lot when my kids were little, and so I would have these three little people with all of their individual needs, and I would be doing this for extended periods of time, getting them where they needed to be, doing all of the things with little break. And one of the things I didn’t even know really I was doing this until my child imitated it. So apparently, when things would happen in the home, for example, I remember I went to the laundry room, I came back and, you know, there are messes made in this particular mess, Zach came to me and said, Mom, you gotta come and see what this kid did. “Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah.” Apparently, when I would get stressed out, I would sing the Hallelujah chorus to myself out loud, but I didn’t realize they were necessarily tuning into that. And that’s a really important point to make: our kids watch us, and they hear us, and they see what rattles us, and when we’re rattled, it rattles their sense of safety and security. But Zach had put together that, “Oh, mom sees the flour all over the wood floors. When she comes out of the laundry room,” that’s what I walked into. He’s like, “you gotta come and see what this kid did.” And the very cute little cherub self sat and a big pile of flour all over the floor he had pulled out of the pantry, and Zach singing the Hallelujah chorus. And you don’t even realize some of those things until you see your child mimic them. It’s like, “where did I do that?” “Yes, I do.” It was a coping mechanism I’ve come to learn. And I used to sing to myself, there was a country song I think, by Trace Adkins, like, “you’re gonna miss this, you’re gonna want this back. You’re gonna wish these years hadn’t gone by so fast.” And I would say in my head, “No, I’m not!” Until I could get to a better place, and I’d keep singing and thinking that through. My husband and I will still say, “We’re gonna miss this. We’re gonna miss this.”

28:13

And it goes so fast. I just said the other day for the first time, “yeah, my daughter’s a freshman in high school.” And I caught my breath. I thought, my daughter’s a freshman in high school.

Heather 28:27

When did that happen?

Kristina 28:28

When did that happen? We were just collecting Winnie The Poohs, right? And and now she’s a freshman in high school, and it’s going by so fast.

Heather 28:40

Yeah, those days we say a lot like the days can feel really, really long when you’re in the midst of it, because it is tiring and exhausting and a lot of work, and we have lots of things going on, but the years are short. “The days are long, but the years are short.” And it is so true. I say that as a parent of a 20 year old now and an almost 17 and an almost 14 year old, it goes by quickly, and we are going to miss it. I had “the summer of tears” two years ago. That’s what my husband and I call it now, “the summer of tears,” where we would go to where we spend a lot of time in the summer, and I enjoy walking. And I would get back from my walks, and my husband would say, “Are you okay? Are you okay?” And it was for the first time, I was realizing we weren’t all there together. My oldest had a job. We weren’t there as a family. Lots of transitions, right? These things happen, like, you’re gonna have that preschooler go to kindergarten, and then kind of everything has to shift for siblings, for parents, like, how do we do this now? And for me, it was very much that awareness of, we’re not all together. He’s back at home. He has a job. He’s more independent. So that became “the summer of tears.”

Kristina 30:07

Yeah. Oh, I resonate with that big time. I’m sure lots of us do. You know, when you think about the joy in the parenthood journey and the struggle as well, they go hand in hand, but comparison is you often like to say-

Heather 30:40

The thief of joy-

Kristina 30:42

The thief of joy.

Heather 30:43

It truly, truly is. One of my greatest and best surprises as a parent, was having my friend group, my and my husband’s friend group, embrace our children, love our children, support them, cheer them on for who they are, individually and uniquely, and just show interest in them. That has been…there are many great joys as a parent. That has been one to me that was really fulfilling, because it’s so contrary to what we often see in society. A society that’s all about getting there faster, getting there quicker. Super competitive. And don’t get me wrong, I love competitive. I’m as competitive as the next person. Put me in a game, I want to win, right? But that’s when there’s a game. These are our children, and it can be so tempting to think, “Oh, she’s already crawling. Mine’s not crawling. Is there something wrong? She can ride that scooter like crazy. We’re not even like good at walking yet. How can she be that good on that? How is he so good at soccer? How does he move his body like that?” My oldest went to play soccer and was just all about the relational. I mean, this kid could sell, today, water to a whale, and he just wanted to, like, “Hi friend, you want the ball? Okay!” And I’m like, “that’s not what we do. That’s not how it goes.”

Kristina 31:44

Yeah.

Heather 31:46

But that’s who he is, and that’s okay.

Kristina 32:32

Right.

Heather 32:32

And to have friends that are like, “but look at how great he is. He’s just so sweet that skill is gonna serve him really well.” He might never be a soccer player, and that’s okay.

Kristina 32:43

And I often say too that from the moment you realize that a child is entering your family, however they come, there is guilt and there is fear: guilt that we won’t do right by them, right? That mommy and daddy guilt is for real, and the fear that they’re not going to be okay, that as they’re growing and as they’re developing, that it’s not happening right.

Heather 33:16

And all the judgment…

Kristina 33:17

All the judgment.

Heather 33:18

I feel for parents, even more so than when our kids were little, it existed then there was a ton of pressure parents are very strategically marketed to. They try to convince you you must do this to get there faster. Your child should be doing this, your child should be doing this. This will get you there more quickly. Tune all of that out. Littles really just need to play and be loved and feel safe and secure. Those are the things required for growth and healthy development and brain development.

Kristina 33:51

They don’t need to read at 18 months.

Heather 33:53

No, please. No.

Kristina 33:54

All of those programs that they sell to us, right? They want us to buy because we’re afraid that otherwise, our child will be behind. Our child will never make it. They need to be counting by this time. They need to be able to read by this time. And that’s a different timeline for every child. And when somebody tries to tell you that this is the distinct path and timeline for that skill development, it instills fear and a lot of pressure, like you were talking about, and then we start pushing our children beyond where they are developmentally for where they are on their path, and trying to get them to perform, because it’s going to alleviate our fear over them.

Heather 34:37

And it’s something that they can’t understand.

Kristina 34:40

Right.

Heather 34:40

They have no idea what’s happening in those moments, and so little understanding.

Kristina 34:47

Well, and I think often too, this comparison and it will happen, and you have to really let go of that, right? We have to learn to let go of that judgment that other people might have. Like, “Oh, he still has a passy?” or “she’s not talking yet?”

Heather 35:06

“You’re using formul?”

Kristina 35:08

Right. Right.

Heather 35:10

It’s everything. It begins immediately. So much judgment. And if you can tune it out, I call it noise, right? You just tune out the noise and you do your own thing, and you focus on your child and yourself and that relationship. And if the noise can fall away, it will be a much more joyful journey.

Kristina 35:32

Absolutely

Heather 35:33

For parent and child.

Kristina 35:34

We have a culture now that, you know, we have these big plans for our children. Again, not necessarily focused on who the child is, but on who we hope they’ll be. I want them to play in the NBA, so we’re going to start with basketball drills when they are wee little babes. And we’re going to schedule them into all kinds of different things. We have children whose lives are so scheduled into activities and different groups that they’re a part of, that they don’t have time to just be, which is a really important state, to just be and to be able to engage in that imaginary play.

Heather 36:17

They say it takes 30 minutes, really, for kids to get into what we refer to as deep play, because they have to look around a bit. They have to see what they want to do. And we live in a world that wants everything to just happen quickly and fast. And we try really hard at ODC preschools to preserve childhood. That’s how I like to think of it. We believe in these magical, wonder filled moments in every child’s childhood, things that they’ll remember, the play, the great joy of their teachers celebrating as they build skills. But the world wants to move quickly, and it wants everybody to get there ahead of everyone else. And so when we talk about comparison being the thief of joy, it really takes intentionality, sitting down with whomever is on this parenting journey with you and talking through what do we want? What are our great hopes? For me and my husband, we wanted to have independent, community-loving, family-loving children. We’re a family of faith. That was also a really important component to us, but we wanted to raise kids who could function independently, who felt capable and competent and secure, but also deeply connected and felt like they belonged to our family, to their community and to this world, and that they could set out each day with a goal of making it better. I say that to my kids still, to my 20 year old as he leaves to go to work, “make it a great day. Be awesome today. Go and be the person that leaves the place better.” That was another thing we often said to our kids, when you go somewhere for youth group, or to someone’s home or to a gathering like leave it better than you found it. Help clean up, you know, all of those little things. Sitting down and figuring out what you’re going to model as parents, but also how you’re going to grow this in your kids. And so often we think it’s the words that come out of our mouth, right? And it’s really our actions that speak to them more loudly.

Kristina 38:50

And what you just spoke about, Heather, and I love this is the shifting of your vision for the end game, right? Who we hope our children will be in this world, as opposed to what we hope they’ll accomplish, right? And the accomplishment comes as it is intended to come for each individual. What is success? I don’t know it’s going to be different for everybody. But instead of focusing on that, focusing on raising this unique child to be who they were designed to be, to support them, so they know that they are loved no matter what. I always say to Grace, “There’s nothing you could say or do, not say or not do, that would change how deeply I love you.” And it’s important that our children can settle into that. They don’t need to perform to get our love. They just need to grow into who they are, and on this adventure in parenthood, that is the foundational key: discovering who your child is, who you are as a parent, letting go of the competition and comparison-

Heather 40:05

All the noise.

Kristina 40:06

All the noise. And then really building your village, because it is not a journey to take on your own. It is a journey and an adventure that you want to have people surrounding you and your child. You spoke about this earlier, about how you and your husband really surrounded yourselves and your children with your friends who embraced the children that you have for who they are, and were there to love, nurture and support you as parents.

Heather 40:42

And we all did that for each other, which just created not only our family of belonging, but then this broader “family.” And I’m using air quotes like we just gathered frequently, and there would be 20 kids ramming around the property, and we would eat meals together. And I remember one time specifically we had returned from vacation, and it was like a Thursday night, and I just shot a group text out that said, “We just returned, but we miss you. I’ve got, like, a brick of cheese. What can y’all bring? Can we gather for dinner?” And they were like, “seriously, yeah, let’s do it.” And so around a brick of cheese and whatever else, because the house was empty, right? We had no food in there. We had been gone, but we managed to pull it together. And it wasn’t necessarily about the food, it was about the companionship. It was about being together. It’s about doing life together, and if we can get to that place, oh man, it’s just such an amazing journey. And I think back to some really major milestones in my kids’ life, right? High school graduation. Making profession of faith in our home church. Having the support. Baptisms. All the way back right to baptisms of our children. Just so many key moments: birthdays, the first time my son went out to Colorado for 10 days. This was a kid who wouldn’t go overnight, you know, and all of a sudden he’s gone for 10 days to Colorado. Just big things that we could celebrate and that we could be honest with each other, truly honest.

Kristina 42:35

Because it’s not just the happy celebrations. It’s also those dark times where I think

Heather 42:41

You have worries.

Kristina 42:42

Oh.

Heather 42:43

There are concerns. Every parent has them. Every child is working on something. And when you can honestly share with one another what those worries are and feel supported and raised up, that’s what keeps us going.

Kristina 42:55

Yep. I often will say you need to be able to phone a friend when you’re on the ledge because of a fear you have. And I remember calling you many times over the years to just say, “I don’t like my kid right now. Is this who she is? I don’t even like her right now.”

Heather 43:15

I remember you being like, “she is not sleeping. She is not kind. We are kind people. Why is my child unkind?” And I’d be like, “Kristina, does she have an ear infection? Grace? Does your ear hurt? Yes. She’d be like, goodbye, I’m going to the doctor.”

Kristina 43:36

But in those exhausted moments, right? To be able to reach out to somebody else and say, “I am not a perfect parent. There’s no such thing. I do not have a perfect child. Again, no such thing. But to say “I need somebody to ground my reality. Remind me

Heather 43:53

My child is a good child. They are kind, but their ears hurt.

Kristina 43:57

Right. There’s something else going on,

Heather 44:00

They’re in pain and then they’re mean,

Kristina 44:02

Yes, and you’re exhausted. So surrounding yourself with that village. And we’re making it sound like it needs to be a lot of people, it really doesn’t. You just need a few. I think as children age, they hear things differently from their parent than they do from another trusted adult who’s been with them through their life and loves them for who they are. And I’ve done that with other friends too, where it’s like, “Hey, would you just have a chat with my daughter about X, Y and Z? Because she doesn’t really want to talk to me about it.” And I love it when we have those conversations. And I’ll hear about what one of the people in my village shared with my child, and I think that’s exactly what I have told her, but she heard it differently from you.

Heather 44:52

I think I remember one of those moments and speaking with Grace and her being like, “yeah, that’s what my mom says.

Kristina 44:59

Yeah-

Heather 45:00

Say something. “Yeah, that’s what my mom says too.” I’m like, “sweetheart, yeah, your mom, she’s a real bright lady. She knows what she’s talking about, yeah, yeah. I guess that’s probably true,” but they do hear it differently,

Kristina 45:16

Yep, they sure do. So when we think about this adventure in parenthood and discovering who your child is, discovering who you are as a parent and as you evolve as a parent, continuing to learn about who your child is at this phase and how to really nurture and grow them into the person they were created to be when we let go of the noise and surround ourselves with people who love us and love our kid, and it doesn’t have to be your family, they can be part of it or not. We all have different kinds of families, but I’m grateful that we have the chance to get together and to talk about these things so that we can be part of your village, that we can be part of this group of people that are sometimes stuck in the weeds of parenting, but are here together, and can be resources and support for each other along the way.

Heather 46:16

And sometimes, let’s be honest, we’re head first in the mud.

Kristina 46:19

Very true, very true. You cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Heather 46:23

You just need to be yanked out, hosed off, fix your hair,

Kristina 46:28

slap a little lipstick on, and here we go out the door. Yep. Thank you so much for joining us for Gear Up: Adventures in Parenthood. I’m Kristina-

Heather 46:41

and I’m Heather. And we’re so grateful to join you on your parenting journey.

Kristina 46:46

Until next time- see you on the trails. The Gear Up: Adventures In Parenthood podcast is brought to you by the ODC Network in Holland, Michigan. It is produced by Jen Plante Johnson, recorded and edited by Dave Purnell, with original theme music by Dave Purnell,

Heather 47:03

The ODC network is a non profit organization that strives to advance outdoor education and conservation in West Michigan.

Kristina 47:11

Heather 47:23

The ODC Network’s vision is building a better community by connecting people land and nature to learn more and get involved go to www.odcnetwork.org.

Show Notes

Episode 1: The Parenting Journey, Part 1 of 2

SUMMARY

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of proactive parenting and building strong attachments with children.

They emphasize the significance of rituals, such as family meals and bedtime routines, in fostering connection and resilience.

They share personal experiences, like prioritizing family meals despite busy schedules and the impact of one-on-one time.

They highlight the importance of modeling positive behavior and consistent values, such as generosity and respect, to help children develop these characteristics.

The conversation underscores the need for intentional parenting to create a secure and loving family environment.

Setting the Course for Parenting

“We want as a family to have a destination, and then we want to build our map on how to get to our destination because, if you don’t have that route charted, you end up wherever. You end up floating around, right? And lots of times you think, ‘how in the world did we end up here? How did we get here?’ And then you have to try to roll it back. Rolling it back takes a lot longer than figuring it out on the front end, right? It’s always so much more powerful to be proactive than reactive.” – Heather and Kristina

Kristina introduces the first episode of the two-part series on the parenting journey, emphasizing the importance of being proactive rather than reactive.
Heather discusses the significance of building strong attachments and connections with children, highlighting the need for rituals that fulfill the deep need for attachment and connection.

The Importance Attachment and Connection

“Paying attention to that attachment and being mindful of and attending it over the years is really important, and lots of people don’t even think about it…

And understanding that children come into the world wired to only take direction from those they’re connected to and securely attached to, that’s a really important thing to know, that’s a safety mechanism. So when we’re securely attached and connected to our children, we’re going to get more cooperation.”

Heather explains the concept of having a family mission statement to anchor the family’s values and provide a clear direction.
Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of secure and safe attachment for children, emphasizing that it is more important than food or water.
Heather highlights that children need strong attachment to primary caregivers for survival and cooperation, and modeling positive behavior is crucial.
Kristina and Heather share examples of how they built foundations of attachment and connection in their families, such as family meals and one-on-one time.

Building Rituals and Connection

Heather shares her experience of prioritizing family meals despite a busy schedule, emphasizing the importance of intentionality and planning.
Kristina discusses the challenges of having a traveling spouse and the importance of one-on-one time with her daughter.
Heather and Kristina talk about the significance of rituals in building connection and belonging, such as bedtime routines and moments of gratitude.
Heather explains the components of a good ritual, including touch, eye contact, closeness, and playfulness, and how they help children feel loved and connected.

Modeling Positive Behavior and Resilience

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of modeling positive behavior and the impact of inconsistency between words and actions.
Heather shares an example of how she and her husband modeled prayer and gratitude through family rituals.
Kristina recounts a story about her daughter running away and the importance of reassuring her child that they belong to each other.
Heather emphasizes the role of the village in providing connection and support, even if children are not living with both parents.

Laughter, Music, and Family Mission Statements

Kristina and Heather talk about the importance of laughter and music in their home, with Heather sharing how she uses humor to cope with stress.
Heather shares her love for family mission statements and how they help reinforce positive messages in the home.
Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of knowing where the family is headed and the characteristics they hope their children will embody.
Heather shares examples of family mission statements that emphasize hard work, sacrifice, and love, and how they help guide the family’s values and behaviors.

Intentional Parenting and Character Development

Kristina and Heather discuss the importance of being intentional about the values and characteristics they want their children to embody.
Heather shares an example of a father who realized the importance of modeling hard work and responsibility from his own childhood experiences.
Kristina and Heather emphasize the need to give children opportunities to practice and develop these characteristics, such as chores and responsibilities.
Heather highlights the importance of calling out positive behaviors in others and using everyday moments to model and reinforce desired characteristics.

Heather shares a personal story about a friend’s child needing reassurance that their best is good enough, highlighting the importance of unconditional support.
Kristina and Heather encourage parents to think about their family’s foundation and the characteristics they want their children to embody.
Kristina and Heather thank the listeners for joining them on their parenting journey and emphasize the importance of being proactive and intentional in parenting.

Further Reading

Attachment and Connection:

American College of Pediatricians on “The Family Table”

Benefits of Family Meal Times:

Benefits of Family Routines and Rituals:

A Review of 50 Years of Research on Naturally Occurring Family Routines and Rituals: